Discuss Avatar Fic : Embers by Vathara

Rabe

Well-Known Member
#1
Psyckosama Posted on Dec 29 2009, 08:56 PM
How about you fag hags quit polluting this thread with discussion of that idiotic fic and actually post some fucking recs?

As you can see some one complained and no one seemed to want to take this to the other thread on Spacebattles mentioned here

If any one here wants to discuss Embers I've started a thread over on Spacebattles forum here http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=159127

so here we are so please discuss away
 
#2
I think I'm mostly in agreement with the detractors. It does seem like the deck is being stacked. I also like the additions and world-building the author is doing -- the healing aspect to Firebending heat is an especially good one.
 

Rabe

Well-Known Member
#3
I thought it would be nice to layout what I have found hard to deal with in the story so here is a few transferred posts

Rabe;4506767 said:
1) The Taboo Vathara created doesn't make sense, its a plot hole. Saying its bad for spirits to visit any harm on humans is too simple. These aren't all wild dogs. They are the gods of the setting and more then capable of high level thought.They can and have been wronged in the past. They should be at least free to defend themselves. If they are not free to defend themselves and determine their own course. Then what are they to be, the human's pets? Also that would mean the AVATAR by the very act of defending itself would be breaking the taboo because it too is also a spirit. Essentially there needs to be a loop holes or this is the legal equivalent of trying to make it illegal for it rain on days that end in y.

2) This is a AU that means those AU elements should be seen everywhere even off stage or in the distant past but they are not.

3)Making up thinly veiled excuses to cut out Mai and Zuko's relationship, then throwing 2 OCs namely Min Wen and Jia Wen at Mai and Zuko's feet and expecting romantic relationships to form spontaneously is just the kind of hamfisted writing that I'd expect form a 14yr Zutara fan writing for a fic challenge. I mean in 1 paragraph alone Vathara basically killed all of canon Mai that elevated her above named goon status.

4) In chapter 22 we find out that Vathara went back in time and change theá Canon time line to reflect that Avatar Kyoshi Killed Chin the Conqueror and then set up the Dai Li to play Ghost buster because in the Embersverse Antiques turn evil and try to kill you if they are older then a century. Which in turn made the 46th Earth King very unpopular so the whole war was apparently a power grab on Chin's part, due to the Earth King keeping antiques. Anyway even after Chin's death at the hands of Avatar Kyoshi his army went right on razing the Earth kingdom for a time rendering his death a pointless homicide. After which they for reasons strange and unknowable returned to the site of Chin's death and still founded a town based on hating the Avatar for killing Chin which didn't really seem to inconvenience their war effort much according to Vathara.

5) Vathara in chapter 22 wont stop making Katara call everyone she bumps into liars. She has shown sense enough in the past understand she would need to stop talking and start looking for an advantage. Instead we are forced to see a Partially lobotomized person who might have been Katara if minus about 30 IQ points go on and on claiming all the people in the conversation with her are liars to their faces.

I'm sure we will find more to talk about as the story continues.

I would also like to paraphrase something mackon said in the thread on space battles. the above wouldn't annoy people so much if everything else about the story wasn't of such high quality.
 

Psyckosama

Well-Known Member
#5
Rabe said:
I thought it would be nice to layout what I have found hard to deal with in the story so here is a few transferred posts

Rabe;4506767 said:
1) The Taboo Vathara created doesn't make sense, its a plot hole. Saying its bad for spirits to visit any harm on humans is too simple. These aren't all wild dogs. They are the gods of the setting and more then capable of high level thought.They can and have been wronged in the past. They should be at least free to defend themselves. If they are not free to defend themselves and determine their own course. Then what are they to be, the human's pets? Also that would mean the AVATAR by the very act of defending itself would be breaking the taboo because it too is also a spirit. Essentially there needs to be a loop holes or this is the legal equivalent of trying to make it illegal for it rain on days that end in y.

2) This is a AU that means those AU elements should be seen everywhere even off stage or in the distant past but they are not.

3)Making up thinly veiled excuses to cut out Mai and Zuko's relationship, then throwing 2 OCs namely Min Wen and Jia Wen at Mai and Zuko's feet and expecting romantic relationships to form spontaneously is just the kind of hamfisted writing that I'd expect form a 14yr Zutara fan writing for a fic challenge. I mean in 1 paragraph alone Vathara basically killed all of canon Mai that elevated her above named goon status.

4) In chapter 22 we find out that Vathara went back in time and change theá Canon time line to reflect that Avatar Kyoshi Killed Chin the Conqueror and then set up the Dai Li to play Ghost buster because in the Embersverse Antiques turn evil and try to kill you if they are older then a century. Which in turn made the 46th Earth King very unpopular so the whole war was apparently a power grab on Chin's part, due to the Earth King keeping antiques. Anyway even after Chin's death at the hands of Avatar Kyoshi his army went right on razing the Earth kingdom for a time rendering his death a pointless homicide. After which they for reasons strange and unknowable returned to the site of Chin's death and still founded a town based on hating the Avatar for killing Chin which didn't really seem to inconvenience their war effort much according to Vathara.

5) Vathara in chapter 22 wont stop making Katara call everyone she bumps into liars. She has shown sense enough in the past understand she would need to stop talking and start looking for an advantage. Instead we are forced to see a Partially lobotomized person who might have been Katara if minus about 30 IQ points go on and on claiming all the people in the conversation with her are liars to their faces.

I'm sure we will find more to talk about as the story continues.

I would also like to paraphrase something mackon said in the thread on space battles. the above wouldn't annoy people so much if everything else about the story wasn't of such high quality.
Well written nonsense is still nonsense.
 

Lost Star

Well-Known Member
#6
So... You are bringing the discussion here as well? Do you want me to start refuting these points you oh so helpfully illuminated out or should I just say that your millage may vary and leave it at that? To be quite frank I would have no trouble debating these points with you, but I probably wont be nice, and besides you seem to want to rant more than you want any actual debate.
 

Rabe

Well-Known Member
#7
Lost Star said:
So... You are bringing the discussion here as well? Do you want me to start refuting these points you oh so helpfully illuminated out or should I just say that your millage may vary and leave it at that? To be quite frank I would have no trouble debating these points with you, but I probably wont be nice, and besides you seem to want to rant more than you want any actual debate.
Your are talking to Psyckosama yes?
 

Lost Star

Well-Known Member
#8
Ta be quite honest I was talking to the one who wrote that list. *Shrugs* I like Embers over all, and consider it one of the better fanfics out there.
 

Rabe

Well-Known Member
#9
Lost Star said:
Ta be quite honest I was talking to the one who wrote that list. *Shrugs* I like Embers over all, and consider it one of the better fanfics out there.
I like Embers as well. Whats wrong with the list?
 

Nemi

Well-Known Member
#10
Rabe;4506767 said:
1) The Taboo Vathara created doesn't make sense, its a plot hole. Saying its bad for spirits to visit any harm on humans is too simple. These aren't all wild dogs. They are the gods of the setting and more then capable of high level thought.They can and have been wronged in the past. They should be at least free to defend themselves. If they are not free to defend themselves and determine their own course. Then what are they to be, the human's pets? Also that would mean the AVATAR by the very act of defending itself would be breaking the taboo because it too is also a spirit. Essentially there needs to be a loop holes or this is the legal equivalent of trying to make it illegal for it rain on days that end in y.
Incorrect. The Taboo is against spirits dicking around with human matters and humans dicking around with Spirit matters.

If one man steals from another it is purely the domain of humans.

If a human commits a crime against a man that is also a crime against the spirits, well, they get involved too.

Imagine if a spirit involved itself in the theft case.

The problem is that spirits don't understand people and don't make distinctions. Even the Good Forest Spirit attacked the peaceful earth kingdom people Because They Were There. And this was within it's rights because, well, they were there. Their reactions are furthermore overblown.

Malicious Kamuiy actively look for connections so they can hurt more and more people. While the Good Forest Spirit just kept to the people in the area, who went into the woods.

Besides, in the fic people aren't upset that the Ocean destroyed the fleet--they're upset that The Avatar Helped It.

Here's an example:

At a school there are the students, the teachers, and because it's a violent school, the police.

When the students do wrong the teachers discipline them. The cops make sure the teachers don't step over the line.

If the students break a law someone reports it and the police get involved. If a student does a hateful crime, or is accused of it; like say rape of a classmate or of a younger student, there will be a lot of hubub in the school. The Police come in and make things right before violence erupts.

If the teachers overstep their bounds and abuse the students, the students go to the police.

If the students abuse the teachers the teachers fight back and the police come along and separate them and restore order.

The Police Do Not help the teachers beat up the students.

Rabe;4506767 said:
2) This is a AU that means those AU elements should be seen everywhere even off stage or in the distant past but they are not.
Vathara has a subtle way of writing at times, and you double thing and wonder. She doesn't always shove it in your face

Rabe;4506767 said:
3)Making up thinly veiled excuses to cut out Mai and Zuko's relationship, then throwing 2 OCs namely Min Wen and Jia Wen at Mai and Zuko's feet and expecting romantic relationships to form spontaneously is just the kind of hamfisted writing that I'd expect form a 14yr Zutara fan writing for a fic challenge. I mean in 1 paragraph alone Vathara basically killed all of canon Mai that elevated her above named goon status.
I agree at the thin excuse, but it's I'm calling you out on the romance issue. I don't see any Jia/Zuko at all.

The thin excuse is related to the AU, probably, she changed Zuko's genealogy. And it's further stated in the AN that Zuko and Mai are afraid that there are other consanguinity that they aren't aware of.


Rabe;4506767 said:
4) In chapter 22 we find out that Vathara went back in time and change theá Canon time line to reflect that Avatar Kyoshi Killed Chin the Conqueror and then set up the Dai Li to play Ghost buster because in the Embersverse Antiques turn evil and try to kill you if they are older then a century. Which in turn made the 46th Earth King very unpopular so the whole war was apparently a power grab on Chin's part, due to the Earth King keeping antiques. Anyway even after Chin's death at the hands of Avatar Kyoshi his army went right on razing the Earth kingdom for a time rendering his death a pointless homicide. After which they for reasons strange and unknowable returned to the site of Chin's death and still founded a town based on hating the Avatar for killing Chin which didn't really seem to inconvenience their war effort much according to Vathara.
What fuckin part of AU don't you understand?

Also the hundred year spirits are a japanese myth, not something she pulled out of her ass.

Rabe;4506767 said:
5) Vathara in chapter 22 wont stop making Katara call everyone she bumps into liars. She has shown sense enough in the past understand she would need to stop talking and start looking for an advantage. Instead we are forced to see a Partially lobotomized person who might have been Katara if minus about 30 IQ points go on and on claiming all the people in the conversation with her are liars to their faces.

I'm sure we will find more to talk about as the story continues.
Shit's happening to Katara, no one is listening to her, what's going on, where am I, I'm a good guy, why are you siding with him, he's the enemy, what's going on, why isn't anyone listening to me?!
 

Ina_meishou

Well-Known Member
#11
Nemi said:
good to see I'm not the only one who read it like that.

I'll also chime in that on the Zuko/Mai front...in canon there wasn't much to tie them together. It was more "hey, there's this girl, it's mentioned she had a crush on Zuko as a kid, and oh hey now they're a couple!"

that's not a perfectly crafted romance for the ages, breaking it up is not a crime against art, and doing so by mentioning an AU element is no worse than anything else.
 

Char Aznable

Well-Known Member
#12
It was intended to sink Zutara, it's called paring off the hypnotuse.
 

Rakeesh

Well-Known Member
#13
Rabe,

The Taboo Vathara created doesn't make sense, its a plot hole. Saying its bad for spirits to visit any harm on humans is too simple. These aren't all wild dogs. They are the gods of the setting and more then capable of high level thought.They can and have been wronged in the past. They should be at least free to defend themselves. If they are not free to defend themselves and determine their own course. Then what are they to be, the human's pets? Also that would mean the AVATAR by the very act of defending itself would be breaking the taboo because it too is also a spirit. Essentially there needs to be a loop holes or this is the legal equivalent of trying to make it illegal for it rain on days that end in y.
Well, no, they're not really 'gods', certainly not in a Western sense that implies overwhelming power and unimpeachable authority. We also don't know how much sentience these spirits all have, or how they think. If memory serves, the vast majority of encounters in the Spirit World that have been intelligent have been involving other human beings, most commonly deceased Avatars of the past. The Face Stealer and the gigantic turtle of the last episodes are notable exceptions, but I can't think of many others.

I think the points in the story where this aspect shows up involve spirits directly harming human beings, or even going far, far beyond their natural habitats to deliberately hunt down human beings and drain then kill them.

2) This is a AU that means those AU elements should be seen everywhere even off stage or in the distant past but they are not.
Well, no, this simply isn't a fair criticism. There is no one definition for the term 'AU', Rabe. In Embers there are dramatic and extensive differences in the characters themselves, the setting itself, and the past history of the world. These together are more than enough to qualify it as Alternate Universe.

3)Making up thinly veiled excuses to cut out Mai and Zuko's relationship, then throwing 2 OCs namely Min Wen and Jia Wen at Mai and Zuko's feet and expecting romantic relationships to form spontaneously is just the kind of hamfisted writing that I'd expect form a 14yr Zutara fan writing for a fic challenge. I mean in 1 paragraph alone Vathara basically killed all of canon Mai that elevated her above named goon status.
The cutting out wasn't a 'thinly veiled excuse'-there were substantive reasons it happened in story. It wasn't capricious or ill-conceived. You may not like it, but that's not the same thing. I do agree, though, that too many people fall in love with Zuko and his nobility in the story too quickly-male and female, romantic and otherwise. Mai hasn't been killed, though...and in canon, she basically was a named goon for the overwhelming majority of her appearances.

4) In chapter 22 we find out that Vathara went back in time and change the? Canon time line to reflect that Avatar Kyoshi Killed Chin the Conqueror and then set up the Dai Li to play Ghost buster because in the Embersverse Antiques turn evil and try to kill you if they are older then a century. Which in turn made the 46th Earth King very unpopular so the whole war was apparently a power grab on Chin's part, due to the Earth King keeping antiques. Anyway even after Chin's death at the hands of Avatar Kyoshi his army went right on razing the Earth kingdom for a time rendering his death a pointless homicide. After which they for reasons strange and unknowable returned to the site of Chin's death and still founded a town based on hating the Avatar for killing Chin which didn't really seem to inconvenience their war effort much according to Vathara.
Wait, before you were complaining that the story isn't AU. Now you're complaining that a fundamental change to the story's history doesn't make sense. Which is it? Criticisms 2 & 4 contradict each other. Also, your description of how spirits interact with certain items is pretty simplistic. Also, it's far from implausible that killing an army's general wouldn't necessarily immediately stop that army. And as for hating the Avatar...presumably his army at least liked their general, or at least didn't dislike him enough not to be upset when an Avatar kills him.

5) Vathara in chapter 22 wont stop making Katara call everyone she bumps into liars. She has shown sense enough in the past understand she would need to stop talking and start looking for an advantage. Instead we are forced to see a Partially lobotomized person who might have been Katara if minus about 30 IQ points go on and on claiming all the people in the conversation with her are liars to their faces.
Katara's reactions are entirely unreasonable from everyone in the story's perspective but her own, Rabe. Zuko is - fairly, from her experience - one of the primary personal embodiments of evil and suffering and generally trouble in her world. When confronted with this shocking and unexpected development - Zuko in the city - what do you expect she'll do? Take the word of a bunch of near-total or complete strangers that, no, you're wrong, Katara, all of your past encounters with Zuko in which he used aggression, deception, cunning, and ruthlessness to kidnap your buddy and inflict harm on your home (and that's after, no less, decades of war crimes her tribe suffered at the hands of the Fire Nation) don't mean squat in the face of our experiences. Us total strangers, that is.

In fact, what's more implausible than Katara's ongoing antagonism and barely-restrained violence and mistrust is the lack of those characteristics on the part of Aang and Sokka, or at least it would be from anyone else. Katara is the one person with previous antagonistic experience with Zuko who is behaving normally, Rabe, in ways that might be expected from anyone.
 

Nemi

Well-Known Member
#14
Rakeesh said:
I do agree, though, that too many people fall in love with Zuko and his nobility in the story too quickly-male and female, romantic and otherwise.
Actually, there's an in fic explanation for that, the inner fire that draws you in, that calls out loyalty.

Vathara used it as a handwave for why the Dai Li went over to Azula. Only Zuko's not trained.

Thing is, everyone that's being drawn into Zuko are some how Fire Nation/Bending, or touched Zuko's chi directly. (Yes, even the Dai Li, it's mentioned they pick for a resistance to mind bending.) The only exception is Mr. Wen, who's wife and family are of Fire Nation blood.
 

-En-

Well-Known Member
#15
dude....Ember wins.

Leave it at that.

If not...

it's just a very well done fic imo. Compared to the usual crappiness done with these fics, Vathara's done an amazing job at keeping things level.

Ok, I actually hated. Yes, you heard me. I hated the idea of Yaoren. But really, so what ?

It ties in with the system of Chi the writer creates.

And some of the concept that are introduced in the fic (to me at least) are pretty damn interesting.

Fire as a key to build loyalty. Like the writer points out. Its a 100 year war and we only know of 1 guy who deserted ? Jeong Jeong became famous for deserting. Wow. But why was he famous for deserting ? Fleshed out in the dragon fever thing the characters face. (yes thats probably wrong but it gets the idea across)

The writer fleshed out the world and is telling it primarily from the perspective of Zuko/Iroh so duh they are going to be portrayed in a better light and besides, its Iroh.

Iroh = FTW.

And Zuko is just a kid who had everything in life set against him. Azula as personal tormentor (check). The thing is, with Azula as your kid sister from birth, and everyone loving her over you (well except your mom, but the Fire Lady passes away quickly) I can just so see Azula using Zuko for a chew toy.

I mean Azula learnt her skills from somewhere. She started out doing something and Zuko was the easiest target around.


The innocent stuff and how the Gaang is protrayed in some negative terms, especially Katara is easy.

Face it, just about everywhere they go.

They are practically loved. People bow down. Open their homes. Respect and offer stuff. So they are kids at best. Just teens really. Katara basically worships Aang, cue high voice : "but he's the AVATAR!!!!!????!"

Now face the reality that not everyone wants the Avatar back. Also face the fact that maybe some Fire Nation people actually want the Avatar back.


>.<

It's just that the fic opens up a bigger, more "realistic" world compared to the cannon stuff which was good, but in the end, failed at developing Fire Nation and Wind Nomad stuff. More backstory and development of a world rarely explored. So the author created his/her own mythos and drew from a ton of different sources? So what. How you want to expand ? Cannon stuff rehash ? Sorry, been there, done that. Its cannon. It sets groundrules only. And besides, all rules are meant to be broken someday.

Orthodoxy of today is unorthodoxy of tomorrow and vice versa.

The Gaang's action actually have negative reprecussions here. >.>
 

Lost Star

Well-Known Member
#17
Psyckosama said:
ALL HAIL ZUKO SUE!
*blinks*

Sarcasm or your feelings on the matter? :D

In any case, both Zuko and Iroh have a rather defined skill set, and there is little evidence that the world revolves around Zuko, or for that matter that life is particularly easy for him.

He's still the woobie in this case *Laughs*

Really I like Embers. It's got a whole lot of subtleties and hidden cultural viewpoints that really drives home the fact that different nations are different. I especially like the reasoning for the start of the war, and the implications that a previous avatar did something rather nasty to fire nation.

Embers makes the world seem that much more real.
 

Maelgrim

Well-Known Member
#19
Well its not like Zuko is any worse than Aang is it?

If Zuko is a sue (something I have yet to be convinced of) than Aang is without a shadow of a doubt and its not like that hurt the cannon story any.
 

Rabe

Well-Known Member
#20
Good news, As of chapter 25 it looks like Vathara has finally lost interest in [straw man/derailing] Katara's canon character.

Its probably only two more chapters until Embers is back to being a solid enjoyable AU.
 

Lost Star

Well-Known Member
#21
Rabe said:
Good news, As of chapter 25 it looks like Vathara has finally lost interest in [straw man/derailing] Katara's canon character.

Its probably only two more chapters until Embers is back to being a solid enjoyable AU.
.. We get it, you think Katara's character is getting misaligned in Vathara's fic. Can you go away now? It's getting annoying.
 
#22
Lost Star said:
Rabe said:
Good news, As of chapter 25 it looks like Vathara has finally lost interest in [straw man/derailing] Katara's canon character.

Its probably only two more chapters until Embers is back to being a solid enjoyable AU.
.. We get it, you think Katara's character is getting misaligned in Vathara's fic. Can you go away now? It's getting annoying.
Quite right, how dare someone express there opinion on a thread for discussing a fic. We should only talk about it if we liked it.
 

trevelyan1983

Well-Known Member
#23
clockworkchaos said:
Quite right, how dare someone express there opinion on a thread for discussing a fic. We should only talk about it if we liked it.
Not at all - we should project our interpretations of the author's intent onto the author, then bitch about it for a month.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#24
Weeell, I do agree that Katara is a little bit... much in Embers, but I feel like while it missed the bullseye, it's still on the target.
 

Lost Star

Well-Known Member
#25
One of the reviews of her fic said it best. It's not my words, but I feel it addresses the issues that you have been continually bringing up every time the fic is discussed.

I can't believe the complaints that the fic is bad b/c it doesn't portray the GAang in a 'good enough light'. Newsflash - it's Zuko's POV. He doesn't HAVE to like the GAang just b/c the readers do, and he doesn't HAVE to know Aang and the GAang as well as the readers do. He's a suspicious * and HIS PEOPLEÆS LIVES depend on him making the right choice, cautious judgments and trusting the right people. HeÆs not Ty Lee; he canÆt read auras and automatically know everything there is to know about a person. Geez, the GAang don't know all about Zuko, how's he supposed to know all about THEM?

Now, my two cents on Katara ^^ For those fed up with her behaviour - understandable, but we're the READER, so we're not seeing from her pov. She needs a little slack.

'Cos really, whenÆs she going to act nice to ZUKO? Yeah, sheÆs NOT, and the Crystal Caves scene in canon doesnÆt count b/c she got him and Iroh captured in the first place by AZULA who (though Katara didnÆt know THEN how dangerous she really WAS) has DONE something to Suki, something prolly pretty horrible, and it's obvious Azula doesn't like Zuko either, and the thought of something happening to Zuko that might be like whatever happened to Suki...

PLUS she knocked him around all over the place until she had a chance to calm down, AND she didnÆt start sympathising until they starting mourning their dead (or not-so-dead) mothers together. And this WAS IN CANON, AFTER she offered to heal Iroh at their last meeting. And considering this fic is Zuko- focused, there's NO NICE KATARA until they figure out how to get along. Which won't happen yet.

Why WOULD she act nice to Zuko? Why SHOULD she? If I were her - well, okay, I'd probably be terrified and try not to do anything to provoke a dangerous firebender in my vicinity, which just goes to show why I admire her - I'm just saying when you're on your own and stuck with your enemy - and when you don't have your friends backing you up and THEREÆS MORE OF THEM - it's a lot harder to be nice to people; with no one watching your back you have to be extra paranoid and mistrustful to make up for it. SheÆs not Toph, and she has history with Zuko. There's no collapsed wounded old man who helped out at the North Pole here either, thereÆs a healthy old man TAKING ZUKOÆS SIDE.

And now Aang's HURT, it was ZUKO'S sister who did it because she's a murderous * just like the rest of her murdering family, she has to heal Aang, she HAS TO MAKE IT BETTER, and Iroh's THERE with them on their bison with his JERK OF A NEPHEW, politely asking for a drop off? I'd be *ed too, if only because I was terrified of Aang dying.

And I'd be a bit too worried over Aang to give a * about Zuko right now, esp. b/c a) he's an enemy, and B) if only she'd BELIEVED Iroh about Azula Aang wouldn't have had to rescue her and get hurt and IT'S ALL HER FAULT, if she'd been faster, if she'd seen it coming, if she'd blocked the lightning with ice or SOMETHING, or if she'd used the spirit water straight away, or...

Yeah. I don't think I'd be in the mood for kiss and make up with Zuko either. Plus, ZUKO ALWAYS COMES BACK. As if he'd be SERIOUSLY hurt. I think if it had HONESTLY occurred to Katara that Zuko really was in mortal danger, and not the usual 'he always gets back after us no matter WHAT we do, this is impossible!' she might be a bit more compassionate, but really - Zuko always DOES come back, and AANG MIGHT NOT, so...

Also, ignore the person going on about Nazi slaughters and stuff - THEY were saying how Aang and the Ocean's wipe out of the Fire Nation navy was justified û which, yeah, it was, but that doesn't mean it was okay, or ærightÆ. Because guess what? Technically Hiroshima and Nagasaki were justified too, but I don't know many people who feel OKAY about it. I don't, and I don't think 'good riddance' or anything like that, even though I KNOW (some) of what the Japanese army did.

Just one of those moral ambiguities of war, unfortunately û my history class debated this for ages, and our only conclusion at the end was æwar sucks, it has to end asap, canÆt figure out who the bad guys are here unless they rape and pillage and go for civilians while they're at itÆ.

And what was with the ælogicalÆ conclusions? When did we start going on about slaughtering Water Tribes? And lobotomising Aang? WTF? Who said we liked or even pitied Ozai and Azula?

Hey, Rabe. I see no GAang-bashing here. The authorÆs offering an alternate perspective and trying to make characters 3D, not any less bad or good than they really are. Azula can be mentally unstable and an evil psycho too, you know - being a bad person tends to invite all sorts of mental complexes, which generally occur AFTER the nasty personality sets in. Katara can be a good person and still hate Fire Nation. Yeah, the 'Water Tribe cultureÆ threw me off, but I'm happy to go with it just for this fic. There is no blind support here, TYVM. Please donÆt insult your fellow readersÆ intelligence û if you really disagree with them, duke it out in a forum or something. Don't belittle or twist the reasons behind why we enjoy the fic. And donÆt go around slamming æpro-HitlerÆ views on people you disagree with, itÆs offensive and makes you seem uninformed and half-cocked.
*Snorts* It's not my words, but it gets the point across a hell of a lot better than I could.
 
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