Discuss Avatar Fic : Embers by Vathara
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Exept it hasn't shown Zuko or Iroh to be _wrong_ about anything in their judgment. Look if it actually shows that Iroh and Zuko were wrong (even somewhat) and judging too harshly Rabe and I will cease any objections. But the fic seems to acts as if it's the objective truth.
1. "Knocked around"? a little yelling is "knocking around".
2. Zuko isn't nice to Katara until that scene either, their last encounter was him ordering her to go away and fireing a blast at her. Don't pretend this was one sided.
3. Given Katara's first thought was "it's a trap" I don't think Azula' presence influence her later decision.
Wow twisting Katara's healing around. In canon Katara healed without any real reason to. Yes, temporary team up against Azula, but Zuko was in a three way fight against Aang not a moment earlier, if anything this shows how twisted she is in this fic.
Furthermore Iroh explicitly mentions Zuko's mom and his son and Katara still acts nasty. And that's the problem.
So wait. Now Azula acting evil means she shouldn't trust Zuko? Granted no fighting,but the two arn't near each other, and as I already pointed out, she thought they might be working together in canon, and still formed empathy. Katara's an absolute pansy for anyone with a sob story.
So the author has Iroh proven right once, and but then has Katara ignore him. Honestly if Katara was "to worried to give a * about Zuko" we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Bullshit. The two are blatantly not compatible. If Aang had used the ocean spirit to wipe out Fire Nation cities, they would but.
1. It was a purely defensible war, they were being invaded, not invading.
2. It went after military craft and people. Note that people who did not fight in the ocean spirits presence were explicitly spare. (and don't say it's all FN either, Zuko was spared). Unlike a nuke, it was targeted and capable of judgment.
3. A nuke isn't alive, the ocean spirit it. Zhao had killed it's mate and was literally one the verge of destroying it's people, only then did it intervene. At this is the big point. Keeping balance between spirit and Human does not mean "favor humans every time". Zhao had already interfered wtih the spirits, so any bullshit about the "spirit should interfere with humans" is meaningless.
Comparing what the ocean spirit did to a nuke in any sense but power is moronic.
Or, you know, genocide.
The problem is that "water tribe culture" is explicitly the opposite of every encounter with Katara, like ever. The two big ones are "Jet" and "puppetmaster".
If that culture worked like that, the Katara should have sided with Hama. She was a member of her tribe with a grievance against the enemy. By "Water Tribe culture" she should have sided with Hama. Which means the "culture" is bunk, or Katara doesn't care about it.
Nor can this be kept to season three. "Jet" in season one wanted to flood a Fire nation village. She was still horrified, even though it would have benefited the Tribe to see the enemy weakened.
1. "Knocked around"? a little yelling is "knocking around".
2. Zuko isn't nice to Katara until that scene either, their last encounter was him ordering her to go away and fireing a blast at her. Don't pretend this was one sided.
3. Given Katara's first thought was "it's a trap" I don't think Azula' presence influence her later decision.
Wow twisting Katara's healing around. In canon Katara healed without any real reason to. Yes, temporary team up against Azula, but Zuko was in a three way fight against Aang not a moment earlier, if anything this shows how twisted she is in this fic.
Furthermore Iroh explicitly mentions Zuko's mom and his son and Katara still acts nasty. And that's the problem.
So wait. Now Azula acting evil means she shouldn't trust Zuko? Granted no fighting,but the two arn't near each other, and as I already pointed out, she thought they might be working together in canon, and still formed empathy. Katara's an absolute pansy for anyone with a sob story.
So the author has Iroh proven right once, and but then has Katara ignore him. Honestly if Katara was "to worried to give a * about Zuko" we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Bullshit. The two are blatantly not compatible. If Aang had used the ocean spirit to wipe out Fire Nation cities, they would but.
1. It was a purely defensible war, they were being invaded, not invading.
2. It went after military craft and people. Note that people who did not fight in the ocean spirits presence were explicitly spare. (and don't say it's all FN either, Zuko was spared). Unlike a nuke, it was targeted and capable of judgment.
3. A nuke isn't alive, the ocean spirit it. Zhao had killed it's mate and was literally one the verge of destroying it's people, only then did it intervene. At this is the big point. Keeping balance between spirit and Human does not mean "favor humans every time". Zhao had already interfered wtih the spirits, so any bullshit about the "spirit should interfere with humans" is meaningless.
Comparing what the ocean spirit did to a nuke in any sense but power is moronic.
Or, you know, genocide.
The problem is that "water tribe culture" is explicitly the opposite of every encounter with Katara, like ever. The two big ones are "Jet" and "puppetmaster".
If that culture worked like that, the Katara should have sided with Hama. She was a member of her tribe with a grievance against the enemy. By "Water Tribe culture" she should have sided with Hama. Which means the "culture" is bunk, or Katara doesn't care about it.
Nor can this be kept to season three. "Jet" in season one wanted to flood a Fire nation village. She was still horrified, even though it would have benefited the Tribe to see the enemy weakened.
Except that by then Katara had more than enough exposure to Fire nation people to know that they were functionally innocent of the crimes Hama was punishing them for.
Still as you say canon Katara is not really quite this doggedly aggressive to Zuko or indeed anyone else especially this early in events despite having good reason to be.
I personally feel that her actions would make more sense in regards to the show if we'd had another exposure to something which fortified her feelings of FIRENATION=EVIL although it is a little amusing that her slightly paranoid idea of Zuko having some kind of crazy mind control power is completely accurate.
As a counter argument Vathara's notes about 'water tribe culture' are internally consistent and make sense, what on earth could Katara really know about how the firenaton or even the earthkingdom really works when she's not even spent a year off of the ice?
Still you're completely correct; Katara doesn't follow Water tribe culture in canon, probably because it doesn't exist in canon.
Embers makes some very large changes to the background of the world which also necessitate altering characters;the firenation gets a whole internal self-destruct regarding disobeying those they are loyal to, water tribe gets a download of Inuit culture to give them more backing and we are shown how this plays out, Katara doesn't act like she did in the show because she ISN'T like she is in the show and this is made pretty clear.
I wouldn't be surprised if Katara was having a small breakdown over being the only one to actually THINK about how to look after the group through all the crap they've been put through up till now.
Still as you say canon Katara is not really quite this doggedly aggressive to Zuko or indeed anyone else especially this early in events despite having good reason to be.
I personally feel that her actions would make more sense in regards to the show if we'd had another exposure to something which fortified her feelings of FIRENATION=EVIL although it is a little amusing that her slightly paranoid idea of Zuko having some kind of crazy mind control power is completely accurate.
As a counter argument Vathara's notes about 'water tribe culture' are internally consistent and make sense, what on earth could Katara really know about how the firenaton or even the earthkingdom really works when she's not even spent a year off of the ice?
Still you're completely correct; Katara doesn't follow Water tribe culture in canon, probably because it doesn't exist in canon.
Embers makes some very large changes to the background of the world which also necessitate altering characters;the firenation gets a whole internal self-destruct regarding disobeying those they are loyal to, water tribe gets a download of Inuit culture to give them more backing and we are shown how this plays out, Katara doesn't act like she did in the show because she ISN'T like she is in the show and this is made pretty clear.
I wouldn't be surprised if Katara was having a small breakdown over being the only one to actually THINK about how to look after the group through all the crap they've been put through up till now.
I suspect the fic would make more sense if it started at the beginning of the series, since it would show the background changes better, instead of just implying they've been there all along but the show was mostly the same.
Except who wants to rehash the entire series with only a few changes just so you can tell a story about Zuko and his change of heart in season 2?
Except who wants to rehash the entire series with only a few changes just so you can tell a story about Zuko and his change of heart in season 2?
I think it makes a bit more sense if you think that Katara has basically been operating under severe stress and emotional shock since she saw Iroh in the tea shop and Zuko knocked her out.
I mean, if the world seems to go crazy around you, humans have a tendency to retreat to values and conceptions which are conservative and traditional, as these provide emotional safety and stability in the crisis. Later, when the situation is less dire, Katara may admit to having been seemingly so irrational because of that mix of fear, uncertainty and background panic that came from such rapid changes and shocking events around her, and thus reverted to the tried and true traditional values of her people as a basis for her actions.
I mean, if the world seems to go crazy around you, humans have a tendency to retreat to values and conceptions which are conservative and traditional, as these provide emotional safety and stability in the crisis. Later, when the situation is less dire, Katara may admit to having been seemingly so irrational because of that mix of fear, uncertainty and background panic that came from such rapid changes and shocking events around her, and thus reverted to the tried and true traditional values of her people as a basis for her actions.
Vatahra doesn't have to show that Zuko and Iroh are wrong about some of their perceptions of the GAang, canon does that for her. She doesn't restate canon often, if you haven't noticed.
About the Ocean Spirit: Shirong and everyone was operating under the assumption that there were no survivors and the Fire Nation didn't know how their Navy got wiped out and that's why they hadn't ramped up their attack.
However, there were survivors as we now know. That means the Fire Nation DOES KNOW THE OCEAN SPIRIT KILLED ALMOST EVERYONE.
But, we now know there were survivors, and there's no way they could have finangled out of a report. Furthermore, what else could they say but "Crazy glowing spirit go smash" and "The Moon went Dark" and "Can I go home and see my mother now, please?"
Key Words: OCEAN SPIRIT, not Aang, not the Avatar. Jee and the other survivors were too far away to see Aang inside.
The Fire Nation thinks the Ocean and Moon Spirit went "Oh No You Didn't!" to the invasion. The top Brass think the Ocean got pissed at Zhao killing the moon.
They don't know Aang got pulled in by it. And THAT'S the line you don't cross.
About the Ocean Spirit: Shirong and everyone was operating under the assumption that there were no survivors and the Fire Nation didn't know how their Navy got wiped out and that's why they hadn't ramped up their attack.
However, there were survivors as we now know. That means the Fire Nation DOES KNOW THE OCEAN SPIRIT KILLED ALMOST EVERYONE.
But, we now know there were survivors, and there's no way they could have finangled out of a report. Furthermore, what else could they say but "Crazy glowing spirit go smash" and "The Moon went Dark" and "Can I go home and see my mother now, please?"
Key Words: OCEAN SPIRIT, not Aang, not the Avatar. Jee and the other survivors were too far away to see Aang inside.
The Fire Nation thinks the Ocean and Moon Spirit went "Oh No You Didn't!" to the invasion. The top Brass think the Ocean got pissed at Zhao killing the moon.
They don't know Aang got pulled in by it. And THAT'S the line you don't cross.
Okay, this is really starting to annoy me.
Guy One: I don't like embers because of how it portrays Katara.
Guy Two: But that's a accurate portray of how she is in canon.
Guy One: No it isn't. (cites reasons it isn't)
Guy three: Oh well, of course it isn't like canon, it's clearly an AU, so it doesn't have to be canon.
It's really annoying. As the last review I argued against seemed to claim she was canon only under slightly different circumstances when meeting Zuko. Make up your minds.
Not if it's an Au, which half the people seem to be arguing it is. In which case we really can't be sure if canon happened.
Pick an argument, it's Au or it's not.
Jet.
Well yes, I wouldn't be having this argument then. But since even it's supporters can't seem to decide if it's supposed to be a full AU or canon diverging at season two with some speculation thrown in.....
Guy One: I don't like embers because of how it portrays Katara.
Guy Two: But that's a accurate portray of how she is in canon.
Guy One: No it isn't. (cites reasons it isn't)
Guy three: Oh well, of course it isn't like canon, it's clearly an AU, so it doesn't have to be canon.
It's really annoying. As the last review I argued against seemed to claim she was canon only under slightly different circumstances when meeting Zuko. Make up your minds.
Not if it's an Au, which half the people seem to be arguing it is. In which case we really can't be sure if canon happened.
Pick an argument, it's Au or it's not.
Jet.
Well yes, I wouldn't be having this argument then. But since even it's supporters can't seem to decide if it's supposed to be a full AU or canon diverging at season two with some speculation thrown in.....
Sorry, I've always considered it an AU but those who like a fic aren't all of one mind about it so of course their arguments differ, you're arguing with a number of people here not a group mind.
I didn't argue a point with Jet because I agreed with you and said as much; Katara doesn't follow Water tribe 'culture' as in Embers BECAUSE IT DIDN'T EXIST any more than Zuko's supposed draconic ancestors or the original purpose of the Dai-li as ghostbusters.
Even then she seemed more angry at being lied to an used than his beef with the firenation, besides wiping out whole settlements is what the EVIL firenation does.
Still it does sort of straddle the line; from what we've been told events up till now have proceeded more or less as canon but with slightly differing character reactions to them because of the additions to the history and its easy for some people to confuse Katara's season 3 treatment of Zuko and her neurotic early treatment of Toph for her character as a whole, a mistake but it happens.
Anyway does anyone want to discuss anything beyond "Katara is/n't out of character" such as Zuko's aims or the nature of the Avatar in this world? does anyone feel that Zuko is right to be worried about the Avatar's somewhat vague duty of 'balance'?
I didn't argue a point with Jet because I agreed with you and said as much; Katara doesn't follow Water tribe 'culture' as in Embers BECAUSE IT DIDN'T EXIST any more than Zuko's supposed draconic ancestors or the original purpose of the Dai-li as ghostbusters.
Even then she seemed more angry at being lied to an used than his beef with the firenation, besides wiping out whole settlements is what the EVIL firenation does.
Still it does sort of straddle the line; from what we've been told events up till now have proceeded more or less as canon but with slightly differing character reactions to them because of the additions to the history and its easy for some people to confuse Katara's season 3 treatment of Zuko and her neurotic early treatment of Toph for her character as a whole, a mistake but it happens.
Anyway does anyone want to discuss anything beyond "Katara is/n't out of character" such as Zuko's aims or the nature of the Avatar in this world? does anyone feel that Zuko is right to be worried about the Avatar's somewhat vague duty of 'balance'?
Maelgrim Posted on Jan 20 2010, 12:52 PM
rofl. :yay: Never thought of it like that. Always seen them as really serious, down to earth types. Meh.
Anyways, I think the issue of balance was actually kind of vague in cannon as well. I mean, what really does the Avatar do ? Solve random problems on his/her journeys and master the elements but beyond that ?
There being no "fixed" description (correct me if I'm wrong) I think its largely up to each Avatar to decide what constitutes balance. This veers way to much to the "Greater Good" for my liking.
Of course this is open to really open interpretations. Like what if Aang died ? Would a Water Tribe Avatar consider it "restoring balance" to start a war / create sanctions again the Fire Nation to bring it to its knees both politically/economically/militarily ? To make up for all the strenght it amassed during the 100 year war? What I like about this fic is how at some parts it goes on about what happens after the war What shifts in power and policy might happen. Stuff that I've never seen any other ATLA fic touch on. (maybe I just haven't read the others, but this seems like the only one so far)
Also on balance, the whole Yin/Yang thing, is the Avatar the only singularity ? Or maybe that isn't the right way to put it.
But essentially, the Avatar has no counter acting force right ?
I think Zuko's aim to make a community of different people is rather interesting. It will also be a major headache which could explode in so many different ways. The issue of racial superiority is not one easily done away with. The sheer amount of problems and hillarity that it would create would need its own fic to even begin addressing completely.
rofl. :yay: Never thought of it like that. Always seen them as really serious, down to earth types. Meh.
Anyways, I think the issue of balance was actually kind of vague in cannon as well. I mean, what really does the Avatar do ? Solve random problems on his/her journeys and master the elements but beyond that ?
There being no "fixed" description (correct me if I'm wrong) I think its largely up to each Avatar to decide what constitutes balance. This veers way to much to the "Greater Good" for my liking.
Of course this is open to really open interpretations. Like what if Aang died ? Would a Water Tribe Avatar consider it "restoring balance" to start a war / create sanctions again the Fire Nation to bring it to its knees both politically/economically/militarily ? To make up for all the strenght it amassed during the 100 year war? What I like about this fic is how at some parts it goes on about what happens after the war What shifts in power and policy might happen. Stuff that I've never seen any other ATLA fic touch on. (maybe I just haven't read the others, but this seems like the only one so far)
Also on balance, the whole Yin/Yang thing, is the Avatar the only singularity ? Or maybe that isn't the right way to put it.
But essentially, the Avatar has no counter acting force right ?
I think Zuko's aim to make a community of different people is rather interesting. It will also be a major headache which could explode in so many different ways. The issue of racial superiority is not one easily done away with. The sheer amount of problems and hillarity that it would create would need its own fic to even begin addressing completely.
True and thats what I found so interesting about the Incarna presented in Sokka: Master of the Black Sword, it introduced an opposite number of the Avatar that balanced its presence out; far less overtly powerful but with skills that Benders cannot even begin to understand.
As it stands in canon the Avatar is a lose cannon of the highest order; yes they have their previous incarnations as advisers but they are by no means beholden to them and one minor mistake could have someone who can rearrange the continent raging out of control.
As it stands in canon the Avatar is a lose cannon of the highest order; yes they have their previous incarnations as advisers but they are by no means beholden to them and one minor mistake could have someone who can rearrange the continent raging out of control.
My only real beef, aside from frustration with how often it gets brought up in the story, with the way Zuko and Iroh are looking at the GAang is that yes, many of their complaints are accurate and their fears are reasonable.
What I don't see a a lot of (any of, in fact, though it's a long story, and I may be misremembering) from either of them is recognition that: we caused this problem. Not Zuko specifically, certainly, but Iroh of all people certainly has some answering to do for the past crimes of the Fire Nation-such as participating in an aggressive war of conquest that was begun with an act of genocide, for example. He doesn't get to wriggle out of that just because the Fire Nation at the time 'thought the Air Nomads had it coming', either. Because of course they didn't. The guys that are still around hardly get to point fingers at their brutally exterminated enemies and say, "Their fault too!"
As for Zuko, if he really wants a claim to leadership of the Fire Nation - and he certainly has, in the past - he can't just absolve himself of all responsibility. The buck stops at the top.
Zuko and Iroh's problems (and the author, it seems, from within the story at least) with the Avatar appear to be: he's just a kid, surrounded by other kids, and he's doing a crappy job. Well, y'know, maybe he would've had some better advisors if the people you want to lead hadn't either massacred or kidnapped and imprisoned all the alternatives.
What I don't see a a lot of (any of, in fact, though it's a long story, and I may be misremembering) from either of them is recognition that: we caused this problem. Not Zuko specifically, certainly, but Iroh of all people certainly has some answering to do for the past crimes of the Fire Nation-such as participating in an aggressive war of conquest that was begun with an act of genocide, for example. He doesn't get to wriggle out of that just because the Fire Nation at the time 'thought the Air Nomads had it coming', either. Because of course they didn't. The guys that are still around hardly get to point fingers at their brutally exterminated enemies and say, "Their fault too!"
As for Zuko, if he really wants a claim to leadership of the Fire Nation - and he certainly has, in the past - he can't just absolve himself of all responsibility. The buck stops at the top.
Zuko and Iroh's problems (and the author, it seems, from within the story at least) with the Avatar appear to be: he's just a kid, surrounded by other kids, and he's doing a crappy job. Well, y'know, maybe he would've had some better advisors if the people you want to lead hadn't either massacred or kidnapped and imprisoned all the alternatives.
So wait. Are you claiming "Jet" did not happen in this universe?
Again, could I ask for a clarification of what you are responding to here? Are you saying the Fire Nation in "embers" isn't evil? Or that most of it is and but Zuko and Iroh arn't, therefore it explains Katara's behavior towards them?
But in canon the avatar is also explicitly a reincarnation. So it's seriously debatable that they would ever actually do something evilly genocidal.
Again, could I ask for a clarification of what you are responding to here? Are you saying the Fire Nation in "embers" isn't evil? Or that most of it is and but Zuko and Iroh arn't, therefore it explains Katara's behavior towards them?
But in canon the avatar is also explicitly a reincarnation. So it's seriously debatable that they would ever actually do something evilly genocidal.
Especially since the people worried about acts of genocide are those who have actually perpetuated it themselves.
"Look, this is bad, the Avatar's just a kid and one of his 'advisors' really hates us. He could fly off the handle and exterminate us! And let us tell you, it can be done, because we did it!"
"Look, this is bad, the Avatar's just a kid and one of his 'advisors' really hates us. He could fly off the handle and exterminate us! And let us tell you, it can be done, because we did it!"
Not at all, I'm saying that Katara's reactions in the situation would be different to how they were in canon because her culture is much stronger/different than in canon.
We aren't told what happened in that situation in regards to this fic and thus can't really comment on them with any real accuracy.
The fire nation is no more evil than the water tribe but its made clear in both canon and Embers that Katara THINKS they are evil and the vast majority of her experiences with them up to Jet hardly do anything to dispel that belief.
And yes its extremely debatable that a hypothetical Avatar could go nuts but the fact that it is debatable is what terrifies most people, its not like they're all the same person with the same beliefs and reactions to situations.
Also what does it matter that the Firenation committed genocide? That doesn't make their fears regarding the Avatar invalid, if anything it makes them far more understandable; The Avatar is an airbender, the last airbender because the Firenation killed the rest and is being advised by the Water tribe whom they just tried to conquer.
Thats two great big reasons for the current Avatar to hate the firenation and things only get worse if Aang dies and the next Avatar comes along; its quite likely that a water tribe Avatar would be taught to hate the fire nation and be more than a little rough in flattening their military, possibly even their entire country.
The Fire nation is worried about the most powerful being on the planet because it has very good cause to hate them, they don't know that Aang has big moral hang-ups against killing, they were taught (in canon) that the Air-Nomad's had a standing military and the first major things they've seen him do is destroy his own temple in the Fire nation (a very worrying sign) and then erase a fleet, neither of which point to him not hating them.
It doesn't make them right but its certainly understandable.
We aren't told what happened in that situation in regards to this fic and thus can't really comment on them with any real accuracy.
The fire nation is no more evil than the water tribe but its made clear in both canon and Embers that Katara THINKS they are evil and the vast majority of her experiences with them up to Jet hardly do anything to dispel that belief.
And yes its extremely debatable that a hypothetical Avatar could go nuts but the fact that it is debatable is what terrifies most people, its not like they're all the same person with the same beliefs and reactions to situations.
Also what does it matter that the Firenation committed genocide? That doesn't make their fears regarding the Avatar invalid, if anything it makes them far more understandable; The Avatar is an airbender, the last airbender because the Firenation killed the rest and is being advised by the Water tribe whom they just tried to conquer.
Thats two great big reasons for the current Avatar to hate the firenation and things only get worse if Aang dies and the next Avatar comes along; its quite likely that a water tribe Avatar would be taught to hate the fire nation and be more than a little rough in flattening their military, possibly even their entire country.
The Fire nation is worried about the most powerful being on the planet because it has very good cause to hate them, they don't know that Aang has big moral hang-ups against killing, they were taught (in canon) that the Air-Nomad's had a standing military and the first major things they've seen him do is destroy his own temple in the Fire nation (a very worrying sign) and then erase a fleet, neither of which point to him not hating them.
It doesn't make them right but its certainly understandable.
Maelgrim,
What standard for determining good and evil do you use to come to the conclusion that the Fire Nation is no more good or evil than the Water Tribes? One is engaging in an aggressive war of conquest, brutally subjugating people throughout the world with tyranny in an attempt to dominate the world because it is better than everyone else. The other sits on either pole and is victimized by this very war of aggression, otherwise minding its own business, at least as presented in Embers.
They're all still human beings, and the Water Tribes certainly have as much potential for evil as does the Fire Nation, all being human, but if actions have any bearing on things, the Fire Nation is unquestionably more evil in the present than the Water Tribes.
The problem is, Katara takes that very sensible world view and applies it on a micro-scale, dealing with every single person who is even of Fire Nation ancestry.
It matters because the author is frequently injecting, to my reading at least, a moral component as well as a pragmatic component into the story and the fears of the Avatar. It's one thing to say, "This is what might happen; it's a matter of survival, and so we must do something." Viewed in that light, Zuko and Iroh's frustration and fears are unobjectionable. It's quite another to be angry, outraged, disappointed, or feel potentially victimized by these things-the consequences of the problems their people have created.
It would be one thing if they were just two random Fire Nation people trying to eke out safety for their folks. But they're not, they're Fire Nation royalty, and along with the perks of royalty goes some responsibility for what the royal family and its nation does. Especially for Iroh, who was an active participant for many years. He brought an aggressive war on conquest right to the Earth Kingdom's capital city...and it wasn't a noble, altruistic realization that the Fire Nation was wrong that made him stop. It was selfish, human, understandable grief which eventually led to those other things.
Yes, but they keep speaking as though they're also right, and not just defending themselves out of necessity.
What standard for determining good and evil do you use to come to the conclusion that the Fire Nation is no more good or evil than the Water Tribes? One is engaging in an aggressive war of conquest, brutally subjugating people throughout the world with tyranny in an attempt to dominate the world because it is better than everyone else. The other sits on either pole and is victimized by this very war of aggression, otherwise minding its own business, at least as presented in Embers.
They're all still human beings, and the Water Tribes certainly have as much potential for evil as does the Fire Nation, all being human, but if actions have any bearing on things, the Fire Nation is unquestionably more evil in the present than the Water Tribes.
The problem is, Katara takes that very sensible world view and applies it on a micro-scale, dealing with every single person who is even of Fire Nation ancestry.
It matters because the author is frequently injecting, to my reading at least, a moral component as well as a pragmatic component into the story and the fears of the Avatar. It's one thing to say, "This is what might happen; it's a matter of survival, and so we must do something." Viewed in that light, Zuko and Iroh's frustration and fears are unobjectionable. It's quite another to be angry, outraged, disappointed, or feel potentially victimized by these things-the consequences of the problems their people have created.
It would be one thing if they were just two random Fire Nation people trying to eke out safety for their folks. But they're not, they're Fire Nation royalty, and along with the perks of royalty goes some responsibility for what the royal family and its nation does. Especially for Iroh, who was an active participant for many years. He brought an aggressive war on conquest right to the Earth Kingdom's capital city...and it wasn't a noble, altruistic realization that the Fire Nation was wrong that made him stop. It was selfish, human, understandable grief which eventually led to those other things.
Yes, but they keep speaking as though they're also right, and not just defending themselves out of necessity.
Fair question, I was referring to the Fire nation as a whole; the nation isn't evil, the leadership (Ozai and the people he fosters in the leadership) are but the people aren't any more than than the Earth kingdom is evil because of Chin.
I'm not sure I understand your objection to Zuko and Iroh, they're royalty yes but Zuko at least has had as much influence on policy as a whelk and Iroh doesn't try to dress up his past, they're doing this BECAUSE of the responsibility of being royalty, a responsibility both admit to have been misguided in the past.
I don't remember them saying that the Avatar WILL decide to inact horrible vengeance, just that they are terrified that he might and that Zuko's discoveries regarding Avatar Kyoshi show an attitude towards mixing nations that does not bode well for people like him or the family he's allied with.
They act as if they're right because they haven't seen anything to really inspire confidence in Aang and Katara is not helping in that regard at all, the biggest thing people have in the last hundred years in regards to the Avatar is Koizilla wreaking a fleet.
I'm not sure I understand your objection to Zuko and Iroh, they're royalty yes but Zuko at least has had as much influence on policy as a whelk and Iroh doesn't try to dress up his past, they're doing this BECAUSE of the responsibility of being royalty, a responsibility both admit to have been misguided in the past.
I don't remember them saying that the Avatar WILL decide to inact horrible vengeance, just that they are terrified that he might and that Zuko's discoveries regarding Avatar Kyoshi show an attitude towards mixing nations that does not bode well for people like him or the family he's allied with.
They act as if they're right because they haven't seen anything to really inspire confidence in Aang and Katara is not helping in that regard at all, the biggest thing people have in the last hundred years in regards to the Avatar is Koizilla wreaking a fleet.
Maelgrim,
I realize it's not fair...but then again neither is the concept of royalty. If you're going to believe in much less participate in and lead a system that believes governing power transfers biologically by order of birth...that means you're part of a family unit that has a lot of responsibility. And you don't get to say, "I didn't do that, that was my father, it's not fair!" because if you get the good - all that power and prestige - then surely you get the bad as well, right?
That's why Zuko gets tarred with Ozai and Sozin's brush. It's a family affair, and he's part of the family. To his credit, though, he at least made a halting start towards recognizing that when he got banished, though understandably this growth hit something of a snag with his disfigurement and humiliation. And he is just a kid-but still, he's a royal kid. As for Iroh, he has all of that familial responsibility in addition to heaps of his own personal responsibility for actively participating himself in the kind of system that has led to an Avatar he now so fears. He doesn't quite hide from his responsibility, exactly, but he's doing an awful lot of finger pointing without turning his hand to face towards himself.
Then it would seem appropriate to me to both prepare for the worst and attempt to correct the problem they both - especially Iroh - have some responsibility for. Katara is just one of Aang's close friends, and already she is slowly - quite slowly, but let's be fair, about as quickly as Zuko did, starting to see the world as it is rather than as she was raised to think it is. Stacked up against Katara's weight in Aang's thoughts are both Sokka and Toph and Aang's metropolitan - sometimes - outlook.
And as for not seeing anything helpful in Aang, how about all those times they didn't kill Zuko outright despite his wanting to drag them (or at least Aang) back to the Fire Nation for summary execution (read: murder)? The times Aang has lashed out in an Avatar state have only been when provoked by the Fire Nation. He's an unlit powder keg, but Iroh's and Zuko's people keep waving around tapers near the fuse over and over and over again, but yet they judge the Avatar harshly.
It's just frustrating to read about. They keep saying (or thinking), "Cast the beam outta your eye, Avatar!" not at all concerned with the big ole mote in their own.
I realize it's not fair...but then again neither is the concept of royalty. If you're going to believe in much less participate in and lead a system that believes governing power transfers biologically by order of birth...that means you're part of a family unit that has a lot of responsibility. And you don't get to say, "I didn't do that, that was my father, it's not fair!" because if you get the good - all that power and prestige - then surely you get the bad as well, right?
That's why Zuko gets tarred with Ozai and Sozin's brush. It's a family affair, and he's part of the family. To his credit, though, he at least made a halting start towards recognizing that when he got banished, though understandably this growth hit something of a snag with his disfigurement and humiliation. And he is just a kid-but still, he's a royal kid. As for Iroh, he has all of that familial responsibility in addition to heaps of his own personal responsibility for actively participating himself in the kind of system that has led to an Avatar he now so fears. He doesn't quite hide from his responsibility, exactly, but he's doing an awful lot of finger pointing without turning his hand to face towards himself.
Then it would seem appropriate to me to both prepare for the worst and attempt to correct the problem they both - especially Iroh - have some responsibility for. Katara is just one of Aang's close friends, and already she is slowly - quite slowly, but let's be fair, about as quickly as Zuko did, starting to see the world as it is rather than as she was raised to think it is. Stacked up against Katara's weight in Aang's thoughts are both Sokka and Toph and Aang's metropolitan - sometimes - outlook.
And as for not seeing anything helpful in Aang, how about all those times they didn't kill Zuko outright despite his wanting to drag them (or at least Aang) back to the Fire Nation for summary execution (read: murder)? The times Aang has lashed out in an Avatar state have only been when provoked by the Fire Nation. He's an unlit powder keg, but Iroh's and Zuko's people keep waving around tapers near the fuse over and over and over again, but yet they judge the Avatar harshly.
It's just frustrating to read about. They keep saying (or thinking), "Cast the beam outta your eye, Avatar!" not at all concerned with the big ole mote in their own.
Again I don't see what you're aiming at with the royalty thing; both Zuko and Iroh are working to make up for what they see are their crimes, Zuko was booted out because he objected to Ozai and Iroh couldn't afford to act overtly for the same reason.
Whatever the order of the White Lotus was up to however...
Most times Aang hasn't killed Zuko and Iroh Zuko returned the favour by trying to capture him again, repeatedly being rather ungrateful about the whole affair.
Still I agree fully that they should also be trying to mend some bridges; presumably they will do so when Zuko isn't on deaths door.
I think the biggest problem is that I just didn't see a condemnation of Aang beyond his inexperience and general ignorance of his job from Zuko and Iroh's point of view, their complaints seemed less "The Avatar is wrong." and more "Holy crap we've treated this guy badly, we have evidence that his job has some rather unfortunate implications especially with the reveal of Earth kingdom firebenders so we'd better set up a back up plan in case we can't deal with him"
But I do agree that it will be annoying if they don't do something about it when they have a chance, perhaps Toph will serve as their mouth-piece in the group and Sokka certainly seems to be looking beyond the obvious.
Lets hope the next chapter addresses the issue eh?
Whatever the order of the White Lotus was up to however...
Most times Aang hasn't killed Zuko and Iroh Zuko returned the favour by trying to capture him again, repeatedly being rather ungrateful about the whole affair.
Still I agree fully that they should also be trying to mend some bridges; presumably they will do so when Zuko isn't on deaths door.
I think the biggest problem is that I just didn't see a condemnation of Aang beyond his inexperience and general ignorance of his job from Zuko and Iroh's point of view, their complaints seemed less "The Avatar is wrong." and more "Holy crap we've treated this guy badly, we have evidence that his job has some rather unfortunate implications especially with the reveal of Earth kingdom firebenders so we'd better set up a back up plan in case we can't deal with him"
But I do agree that it will be annoying if they don't do something about it when they have a chance, perhaps Toph will serve as their mouth-piece in the group and Sokka certainly seems to be looking beyond the obvious.
Lets hope the next chapter addresses the issue eh?
Maelgrim,
Working to make up for doesn't equate to 'have made up for'. The crimes they're working to address are still ongoing. Yes, I know it's unfair, but again, they're royalty. The position is founded on unfairness. As for Iroh...we don't know why he didn't overthrow Ozai at some point in the past. It's unlikely it was initially due to a lack of power, though, since he was originally first in line for the throne.
*shrug* I think it takes some serious squinting to come up with that stance, but different strokes and all that.
Working to make up for doesn't equate to 'have made up for'. The crimes they're working to address are still ongoing. Yes, I know it's unfair, but again, they're royalty. The position is founded on unfairness. As for Iroh...we don't know why he didn't overthrow Ozai at some point in the past. It's unlikely it was initially due to a lack of power, though, since he was originally first in line for the throne.
*shrug* I think it takes some serious squinting to come up with that stance, but different strokes and all that.
The most likely reason for Iroh not overthrowing Ozai is a combination of recovering from breaking his loyalty to Azulon's orders and the death of his son, one is supposed to be so bad that few, if anyone is known to survive it and both at once must have been brutal.
We don't know this for certain but we know that he suffered both of these trials and given what we know of Ozai its entirely possible he actively cut his brother off from any real power.
I'll ask again; they're royalty, part of the family that's to blame for this whole mess and now they're trying to fix it. what's the problem with this? does it make what they're trying to do is wrong somehow?
We don't know this for certain but we know that he suffered both of these trials and given what we know of Ozai its entirely possible he actively cut his brother off from any real power.
I'll ask again; they're royalty, part of the family that's to blame for this whole mess and now they're trying to fix it. what's the problem with this? does it make what they're trying to do is wrong somehow?
What I don't get is Ozai's supposed power level. I think at one part Iroh thinks he might not be able to take Ozai in a duel or perhaps it would be a really close thing.
What bugs me is that Iroh is supposedly some great general who spent most of his life campaigning and fighting the best benders of the world.
Who the hell was Ozai before his ascension to the throne ?
Some random paper pusher from the capital ? A guy who stayed home yeah, but how did he get strong ?
Training with imperial firebenders day in and day out ?
Because I would have thought that if Iroh faced Ozai then it would be a hard but ultimately winnable battle.
Also, I think iroh just stopped caring really about the affairs of state after his son died. Sure he would join meetings and stuff, but mostly to stop himself from falling to far from favour (if the Fire Nation Court is like a viper's nest, its best to keep them where you can see them)
What bugs me is that Iroh is supposedly some great general who spent most of his life campaigning and fighting the best benders of the world.
Who the hell was Ozai before his ascension to the throne ?
Some random paper pusher from the capital ? A guy who stayed home yeah, but how did he get strong ?
Training with imperial firebenders day in and day out ?
Because I would have thought that if Iroh faced Ozai then it would be a hard but ultimately winnable battle.
Also, I think iroh just stopped caring really about the affairs of state after his son died. Sure he would join meetings and stuff, but mostly to stop himself from falling to far from favour (if the Fire Nation Court is like a viper's nest, its best to keep them where you can see them)
Remember, though, Iroh's twenty or so years older than Ozai. He's a powerhouse, yes, and skilled out the ass but he's past his prime. Ozai, however, isn't so far past it. If Iroh were younger, I'd lay my money on him, no question. Now? The effects of age start creeping in, dulling reactions. He might win, he might lose.
And he might just have said that so they wouldn't make him fight, because (and I may be mixing canon up with some fic or other here, but...) didn't he bring up the (rather bleak) POLITICAL aftermath of a win right after he said he didn't think he could pull it off? Might have been a ruse to avoid it.
And he might just have said that so they wouldn't make him fight, because (and I may be mixing canon up with some fic or other here, but...) didn't he bring up the (rather bleak) POLITICAL aftermath of a win right after he said he didn't think he could pull it off? Might have been a ruse to avoid it.
Yeah, that's canon. He said if he takes the throne/kills Ozai the world will just see it as one brother deposing the other, even if Iroh is a much better ruler.
Also, even if he's better than Ozai, people will still remember Bai Sing Sei. That's why, in canon at least, Zuko has to be on the throne. He's never taken part in a major military assault on another nation (that anyone knows about at least), possibly never been in a minor one either, with the exception of going to Katara's village.
Further, not only does he have a blood claim on the throne, his only dishonor has to do with Ozai--which can be read/spun as being Communist in Paranoia, anything the <s>computer</s> enemy hates so utterly must have SOMETHING going for it.
Also, note: Vathara says in her AN the Guru basically happened as it did in the show--but note she didn't actually write it in the fic. Ergo, yeah, my point that canon proves Iroh and Zuko wrong and that's why she doesn't write it out stands.
By the By, I see complaints about how Iroh and Zuko are going oh noes, but never acknowledge that this shit hole they are in is 'their' fault. Iroh does actually on occasion. But how would bemoaning that fact help them prepare for the future? Seriously, it's get wangsty. They can't change the past so they don't whine about it, instead they get paranoid about the future and try.
Part of the problem is Vathara is annoying subtle in her writing, some idiots still think Zuko turned Shirong into a Fire Bender.
Also, even if he's better than Ozai, people will still remember Bai Sing Sei. That's why, in canon at least, Zuko has to be on the throne. He's never taken part in a major military assault on another nation (that anyone knows about at least), possibly never been in a minor one either, with the exception of going to Katara's village.
Further, not only does he have a blood claim on the throne, his only dishonor has to do with Ozai--which can be read/spun as being Communist in Paranoia, anything the <s>computer</s> enemy hates so utterly must have SOMETHING going for it.
Also, note: Vathara says in her AN the Guru basically happened as it did in the show--but note she didn't actually write it in the fic. Ergo, yeah, my point that canon proves Iroh and Zuko wrong and that's why she doesn't write it out stands.
By the By, I see complaints about how Iroh and Zuko are going oh noes, but never acknowledge that this shit hole they are in is 'their' fault. Iroh does actually on occasion. But how would bemoaning that fact help them prepare for the future? Seriously, it's get wangsty. They can't change the past so they don't whine about it, instead they get paranoid about the future and try.
Part of the problem is Vathara is annoying subtle in her writing, some idiots still think Zuko turned Shirong into a Fire Bender.
Rakeesh said:
As much as I enjoy Embers, I would hardly say the author has shirked from getting wangsty in other areas
Vathara does angst with some skill. I just wish she had used some one I cared about less as a wedge to break her new story open is all.