Discuss Avatar Fic : Embers by Vathara
- Thread starter Rabe
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Thanks Char I guess I must be slipping
Still reading right now, comments to follow.
edit here have some thoughts,
I think she finally made a clear case for her treatment of Katara up to this point. As such well I'm not going to lie I still don't like everything shes done. Namely the author tract denouncement of Mai/Zuko, and then shacking up Mai with Xander/Jin and to be completely honest a lot of the crap she took from "The Divide" which is by most of the show's staff consider Non Canon now. OTOH we have really started see a apparent hidden world in the Fire Nation in the land Byako. So yeah we get a Dragon homeland it seems plus Zuko still has living grand parents which is for some reason very cool.
Thoughts?
Still reading right now, comments to follow.
edit here have some thoughts,
I think she finally made a clear case for her treatment of Katara up to this point. As such well I'm not going to lie I still don't like everything shes done. Namely the author tract denouncement of Mai/Zuko, and then shacking up Mai with Xander/Jin and to be completely honest a lot of the crap she took from "The Divide" which is by most of the show's staff consider Non Canon now. OTOH we have really started see a apparent hidden world in the Fire Nation in the land Byako. So yeah we get a Dragon homeland it seems plus Zuko still has living grand parents which is for some reason very cool.
Thoughts?
I did very much enjoy and appreciate the greater fleshing out of Katara's character and her motivations-even when it amounted to some childish responses from her, it still fit-Katara was still a whole human being rather than a receptacle for author irritation, as she somewhat came off as in past chapters.
I think the only thing missing now would be one of these times when Zuko is cataloguing all the things he's done that Katara hasn't credited him for, for someone - or perhaps himself - to ask, "Hey, exactly whose fault is it you have such a shitty reputation with her, really? Who gave her the first impression, exactly?"
I think the only thing missing now would be one of these times when Zuko is cataloguing all the things he's done that Katara hasn't credited him for, for someone - or perhaps himself - to ask, "Hey, exactly whose fault is it you have such a shitty reputation with her, really? Who gave her the first impression, exactly?"
To be fair, though, Zuko's side has been - until recently, when he's changed sides - the side prosecuting an aggressive war of conquest on the rest of the planet, while Katara's side has been the side being victimized by these wars of conquest, and her culture would probably be on its near-last generation if not for the coming of the Avatar. It's perfectly natural for her to believe enemies need to die, since the enemies in her life have been really bad.
And I may have forgotten the chapter you're talking about-it's a long story after all - but just once wouldn't cut it in any case, not with all the 'but I've done all this' from Zuko.
And I may have forgotten the chapter you're talking about-it's a long story after all - but just once wouldn't cut it in any case, not with all the 'but I've done all this' from Zuko.
As I've been saying, Katara's been under extreme amounts of stress recently and so she's taking it out on viable targets. Except Zuko's not fair game right now because they need him.
It's completely rational for Katara to hate Zuko. But she's a kid and kids all have a bit of idiocy. "How does he keep on finding us?" was pretty much uttered in canon--they forget about the Ten Ton Flying Bison.
No one likes being wrong.
So yeah, I'm not ragging on her for hating Zuzu. But how she acted with Zuko in this chapter was really stupid (and IC). Yeah, she's angry, and stressed. But you're surrounded by people with weapons and armor and who are potentially fire benders. Yeah, that's the ocean, but the sun is up.
She also has respect issues. Aang is the Avatar, the strongest bender, people should listen to him.
Why should I have to listen to this dried up prune who's not even a (water)bender when I want to heal? Why don't they let me heal, (even though I don't know much about what I'm doing)?
How she projected onto Zuko "Who knows how many people he hurt." Water, and inner fire, getting rid of it? I think she might have killed the kids if Mexiang let her near them.
It's completely rational for Katara to hate Zuko. But she's a kid and kids all have a bit of idiocy. "How does he keep on finding us?" was pretty much uttered in canon--they forget about the Ten Ton Flying Bison.
No one likes being wrong.
So yeah, I'm not ragging on her for hating Zuzu. But how she acted with Zuko in this chapter was really stupid (and IC). Yeah, she's angry, and stressed. But you're surrounded by people with weapons and armor and who are potentially fire benders. Yeah, that's the ocean, but the sun is up.
She also has respect issues. Aang is the Avatar, the strongest bender, people should listen to him.
Why should I have to listen to this dried up prune who's not even a (water)bender when I want to heal? Why don't they let me heal, (even though I don't know much about what I'm doing)?
How she projected onto Zuko "Who knows how many people he hurt." Water, and inner fire, getting rid of it? I think she might have killed the kids if Mexiang let her near them.
She's made a point of saying that if she doesn't say otherwise, everything happened as in canon, so yes, Jet happened. A lot of reviewers have pointed out that this is a bad thing, like what you guys are saying about how she should say stuff and not just assume everyone's seen The Guru and therefore knows how wrong Zuko and Iroh are being.
That she REALLY needs to work on, since if you see the counterargument without the argument then the counterargument looks really biased. If you don't know canon or doing think about it exactly in the context of canon (which you don't with a lot of fics since they don't fit into the world well), then it looks really uneven.
So it looks like 'Zuko and Iroh are awesome, Katara and Aang are immature' instead of 'Katara and Aang, Iroh too, are awesome and Zuko is kind of an idiot (as we know from the show), but it's more complicated than that.' It becomes 'they're immature' instead of 'they're awesome BUT immature.'
This reader was among those who thought that Toph got kidnapped by the Dai Li (due to thinking that the kidnapped by her folks' agents happened before Ba Sing Se), so yeah. She needs to work on that. And she has a tendency to assume everyone reads every single word and remembers it and seems to think restating insults the reader's intelligence.
So after, in chapter 22, she had the conversation between Zuko and Jia about why Katara does not like him and he totally deserves this, 'I'd be throwing fire at her, she'd be throwing ice at me... I chased them all the way from the south pole and attacked them a lot,' she doesn't do it again. I suppose since all that's outlined in the show, which shows episode after episode of Zuko attacking, she thinks it's a given, but a lot of fics will ignore stuff like that.
That she REALLY needs to work on, since if you see the counterargument without the argument then the counterargument looks really biased. If you don't know canon or doing think about it exactly in the context of canon (which you don't with a lot of fics since they don't fit into the world well), then it looks really uneven.
So it looks like 'Zuko and Iroh are awesome, Katara and Aang are immature' instead of 'Katara and Aang, Iroh too, are awesome and Zuko is kind of an idiot (as we know from the show), but it's more complicated than that.' It becomes 'they're immature' instead of 'they're awesome BUT immature.'
This reader was among those who thought that Toph got kidnapped by the Dai Li (due to thinking that the kidnapped by her folks' agents happened before Ba Sing Se), so yeah. She needs to work on that. And she has a tendency to assume everyone reads every single word and remembers it and seems to think restating insults the reader's intelligence.
So after, in chapter 22, she had the conversation between Zuko and Jia about why Katara does not like him and he totally deserves this, 'I'd be throwing fire at her, she'd be throwing ice at me... I chased them all the way from the south pole and attacked them a lot,' she doesn't do it again. I suppose since all that's outlined in the show, which shows episode after episode of Zuko attacking, she thinks it's a given, but a lot of fics will ignore stuff like that.
Something she brought into the story in chapter 26 bothers me. She now seems to be beginning to make a case for her Katara to have mind control powers.
As only a Water benders mind controlled Slave people would listen to such a foolish child when she tells them staying in a death camp is going to kill them so why not try and escape.
This story is giving me whiplash. I've read chapter 26 about 5 times now and it looks like for each thing Vathara gets right she thinks she needs to make Katara and the Water tribe appear to be in the wrong even if just a little.
It's like dealing with apologetic tracts very pointless and annoying.
As only a Water benders mind controlled Slave people would listen to such a foolish child when she tells them staying in a death camp is going to kill them so why not try and escape.
This story is giving me whiplash. I've read chapter 26 about 5 times now and it looks like for each thing Vathara gets right she thinks she needs to make Katara and the Water tribe appear to be in the wrong even if just a little.
It's like dealing with apologetic tracts very pointless and annoying.
So, is Vathara bashing the Water Tribe, or bashing the Fire Nation, or actually showing that they too have ethically questionable bending powers like, say, the Dai Li, but choose not to use them?
Make up your mind, either way. Watching you vacillate between victims of Vathara's mean meaniness is getting really old.
Make up your mind, either way. Watching you vacillate between victims of Vathara's mean meaniness is getting really old.
I'm hoping that at some point in future chapters Vathara will address an issue she brought up in a note from an earlier chapter, about what parts of Firebending were lost in Avatar Kyoshi's two-century-plus long hold of the post. She made a very interesting point that a previous Fire Nation-born Avatar could forcibly erupt volcanoes, and that Kyoshi worked with lava when she broke her home village off the mainland and turned it into an island, yet Roku could not tell that his island was in imminent danger of eruption until it started happening, and neither he nor Sozin actually tried bending the lava itself.
What parts of Firebending may have been lost? I think there might have been a hint elsewhere of someone who wasn't dragon-kin using the external fire instead of the internal fire. Any help on that?
What parts of Firebending may have been lost? I think there might have been a hint elsewhere of someone who wasn't dragon-kin using the external fire instead of the internal fire. Any help on that?
Giving fire benders mind control gave them an out for conducting a genocide
I was just following orders is now the truth. So now the death of the Air Nomads is now the Fault of a few bad apples.
Giving it too the water tribe is basically implying the Water Tribe is a mind controlled water bender cult.
Mind control is wrong when Earth kingdoms or the Water tribe does it but it fine and dandy if your the fire nation.
Seeing the double standard here?
I was just following orders is now the truth. So now the death of the Air Nomads is now the Fault of a few bad apples.
Giving it too the water tribe is basically implying the Water Tribe is a mind controlled water bender cult.
Mind control is wrong when Earth kingdoms or the Water tribe does it but it fine and dandy if your the fire nation.
Seeing the double standard here?
...?!?!
All right, clarification on the 'mind control.' For one thing, it's loyalty grabbing, not mind control. There is a big difference. In this world it's hard-coded into the Fire Nation people. It doesn't give them an out, it just explains some of their behavior that doesn't make sense without it. Mind control is the wrong world. Really, it's an extreme form of pack behavior not found in humans.
Really a better explanation is an actual spiritual charisma. And if Firebenders have it, there might be a chance that Waterbenders might have something similar.
All right, clarification on the 'mind control.' For one thing, it's loyalty grabbing, not mind control. There is a big difference. In this world it's hard-coded into the Fire Nation people. It doesn't give them an out, it just explains some of their behavior that doesn't make sense without it. Mind control is the wrong world. Really, it's an extreme form of pack behavior not found in humans.
Really a better explanation is an actual spiritual charisma. And if Firebenders have it, there might be a chance that Waterbenders might have something similar.
While 'inner fire' certainly influences and amplifies feelings of loyalty towards a great name there is no indication whatsoever that the 'penalty' for breaking loyalty is anything but uniquely firenation and even then death is not certain given that everyone who has experienced it in this fic so far has survived.
Besides what we've seen of it in action implies little more than what a very charismatic leader is capable of, given that all unmentioned events happen as in canon, Azula had to resort to threats and intimidation rather than 'mind control' to get Mai and Tai-lee on board.
Besides what we've seen of it in action implies little more than what a very charismatic leader is capable of, given that all unmentioned events happen as in canon, Azula had to resort to threats and intimidation rather than 'mind control' to get Mai and Tai-lee on board.
It's not mind control because, with the exception of your parents, you have a conscious choice weather or not to give your loyalty to someone. This was stated explicitly: all the Clan Heads have to do is refuse to give their oath to Azula; they don't have to break their loyalty, all they have to do is not give it.
Furthermore, only Fire Nation gets sick when they turn traitor.
Now then, as to Katara talking a prison barge into revolting:
Fire Nation: I'm a Great Leader Follow Me!
Water Tribe, community and family: Everyone Pull Together!
Judging by Aang, Air Nomads: Let's be Friends, Follow Me! Or Alternatively: I'm Honest, Trust Me!
Earth Kingdom: Super Stubbornness? Hold Your Ground-ness?
Furthermore, only Fire Nation gets sick when they turn traitor.
Now then, as to Katara talking a prison barge into revolting:
Fire Nation: I'm a Great Leader Follow Me!
Water Tribe, community and family: Everyone Pull Together!
Judging by Aang, Air Nomads: Let's be Friends, Follow Me! Or Alternatively: I'm Honest, Trust Me!
Earth Kingdom: Super Stubbornness? Hold Your Ground-ness?