Earth/Minbari War Interventions

[Hawk]

Thanks for the understanding and the replies guys.

In my mind has emerged an I-don't-know-if-it's-worse idea.
The Earth Alliance attacked by the Minbari is:
1) The Lost Universe!Earth.
In the first case... no, the war doesn't exist: LU!Tecnology can deal with the Lost Ships, aka Weapons of Light in spaceship forms aka HIGH LEVEL DEMONS, and the Lagdo Mezeghis ALONE can break words apart with her Gravity Gun...

I don't know what series you were watching, but the LU can't deal with the Lost Ships.

They would deploy entire fleets of battleships and lose everything in mere moments. That is why the Swordbreaker had to be the one to save the day, because it was also a Lost Ship.

That said, the Minbari would be screwed the moment the Swordbreaker appeared on the scene, regardless of the size of the Minbari fleet, or lack of support forces.

 

[MWkillkenny84]

I don't know what series you were watching, but the LU can't deal with the Lost Ships.

They would deploy entire fleets of battleships and lose everything in mere moments. That is why the Swordbreaker had to be the one to save the day, because it was also a Lost Ship.

That said, the Minbari would be screwed the moment the Swordbreaker appeared on the scene, regardless of the size of the Minbari fleet, or lack of support forces.

The Italian version: heavily censored and adapted for lowing the rating and remove all the Kanzaka-verse references.
Sorry, but it's the ONLY version who I know...

 

[Wakka]

Babtech on the net gives the upper yields of Vorlon weapons, and defenses. Compared to the oft-cited gigatons of Star Wars vessels, well, it's not pretty. The Vorlons would be target practice. The Shadows too, for that matter.

The rest of the younger races won't even be noticed.

Given that the "oft-cited gigatons" of SW weaponry is wanktastic bullshit, I fail to see any problem with simply ignoring such wankery and going with what fits the story.

Three Star Destroyers can do the same thing the Vorlon Planet Killer does to a planet. Probably more. Defend your assertion of "wanktastic bullshit".

 

[Nchisholm]

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn :evil2:

 

[ecs05norway]

Babtech on the net gives the upper yields of Vorlon weapons, and defenses. Compared to the oft-cited gigatons of Star Wars vessels, well, it's not pretty. The Vorlons would be target practice. The Shadows too, for that matter.

The rest of the younger races won't even be noticed.

Given that the "oft-cited gigatons" of SW weaponry is wanktastic bullshit, I fail to see any problem with simply ignoring such wankery and going with what fits the story.

Three Star Destroyers can do the same thing the Vorlon Planet Killer does to a planet. Probably more. Defend your assertion of "wanktastic bullshit".

Three star destroyers can reduce a planet to nothing but floating chunks of rubble?

Then why did the Empire need to build the Death Star? Kenobi says on-screen (which therefore overrides anything from 'tech manuals') that the ENTIRE IMPERIAL FLEET couldn't do that.

Sorry. You FAIL at life. And math. And everything else. Your sucktastic wankery has been refuted.

Three ISD's can carry out a 'Base Delta Zero' - render a planet uninhabitable via prolonged turbolaser bombardment of the surface. Prolonged as in several days.

A Vorlon Planet-Killer reduces the planet to rubble in one shot, same as the Death Star.

 

[MC80a Liberty]

Three star destroyers can reduce a planet to nothing but floating chunks of rubble?

Then why did the Empire need to build the Death Star? Kenobi says on-screen (which therefore overrides anything from 'tech manuals') that the ENTIRE IMPERIAL FLEET couldn't do that.

Sorry. You FAIL at life. And math. And everything else. Your sucktastic wankery has been refuted.

Three ISD's can carry out a 'Base Delta Zero' - render a planet uninhabitable via prolonged turbolaser bombardment of the surface. Prolonged as in several days.

A Vorlon Planet-Killer reduces the planet to rubble in one shot, same as the Death Star.

It's pretty funny that you're accusing someone of sucktastic wankery when it's really all you.


A Vorlon planet killer can reduce a planet to rubble in one shot, the same as the Death Star. Really?

Let's see, in The Summoning Arkata 7 was taken out by the Vorlons.
The fleet that destroyed it was made up of thousands of ships, including several Planet Killers, not a lone PK. The planet was said to be destroyed, but it doesn't specify whether the planet was blown to pieces or just had its inhabitants killed. Furthermore, on several occasions planets have been referred to as destroyed by characters when it was just the inhabitants killed, not the planet blown to pieces.

In Falling Toward Apotheosis Ventari is attacked and while the PK flies through asteroids they're obviously not the remains of the planet, seeing as dialogue makes it clear that there were people who escaped during the attack and a planet for those off-world to return to.
This episode also notes that the Vorlons jam communications while attacking, which usually lasts 10-12 hours.
Tizino Prime and Dura 7 are also hit, but there are survivors and a call for atmosphere capable ships and medical ships to help evacuate.

So, the Vorlon Planet Killer typically leaves the planet with some ability to support life and even survivors, possibly requiring several hours of bombardment, with the only planet that they might have actually blown to pieces being hit by a fleet of thousands and the destruction only being known because all communications from the planet having ceased, making it just as likely that it was just the inhabitants being killed.

Likewise you're also misrepresenting a Base Delta Zero as well. It doesn't take several days, it takes several hours, exactly how many is unknown, but definitely less than a day. Three Star Destroyers can carry one out while also preventing any escape, jamming all communications and completing the job before anyone arrives to see why communications have stopped. BDZ's are also mentioned as blasting off entire atmospheres, leaving surfaces as evenly cratered wastelands and causing so much damage that it's easier to terraform a completely new planet than try to restore the targeted one.

And you're saying that's the same as firepower as a Death Star, a ship capable of shooting through a high end planetary shield and turning a planet to debris in seconds? Which is also why the Death Star was needed, a fleet couldn't crack a shield and blow a planet to rubble before anyone noticed while a Death Star can, making it an effective terror weapon.


So yeah, the Vorlon Planet Killer's a joke compared to what you're claiming while a Star Destroyer outperforms it despite not even being a dedicated planet killer.

 

[WarmasterCain55]

I probably shouldn't get involved in this but what about Halo's Covenant warships? It's been noted in both the game and novels that an armada of warships can burn the land and boil the sea in no time. I'm not sure what exactly is the time frame but it is similar to what you are talking about. I haven't read them in a while.

I should reread them though.

 

[DhampyrX2]

No offense, but Kenobi'd been off the radar for the whole of Luke and Leia's lives at that point in the movie and I seriously doubt he was gathering any intelligence on growing Imperial firepower while he has sitting in a hut in the wastes of Tatooine. I don't think he could quote the numbers in the Imperial fleet or accurately speculate in its firepower.

And when you consider that Lucas starts contradicting himself between the first and second trilogies the source books don't look like a bad place to start. Especially when various weapons on par with the Death Star were already being developed long before Kenobi himself was born.



Now to go back to a different genre with Robotech. Honestly, what you need is some kind of lost squadron or another showing up during the war. Rick Hunter and the SDF-3 showing up with the fleet they were planning to use to take back Earth from the Invid would work.

 

[SotF]

Likewise you're also misrepresenting a Base Delta Zero as well. It doesn't take several days, it takes several hours, exactly how many is unknown, but definitely less than a day. Three Star Destroyers can carry one out while also preventing any escape, jamming all communications and completing the job before anyone arrives to see why communications have stopped. BDZ's are also mentioned as blasting off entire atmospheres, leaving surfaces as evenly cratered wastelands and causing so much damage that it's easier to terraform a completely new planet than try to restore the targeted one.

Actually, that's wrong. It take a Star Destroyer hours to pull off, and it normally isn't cooking off the atmosphere, but reducing a good portion of the crust to molten slag. The Interdictor-class from the KotOR Era would took at least 3 of them, and with that many it would take a few days which is shown in KotOR with Taris.

It takes a lot of firepower to shatter a planet or at least rip it apart barring some of the more exotic options such as deorbiting a moon or the like which a Star Destroyer is technically capable of, at least according to the RPG stats.

 

[Oni_kawaii]

What if instead of just Dukhat the entire grey council was killed.

Or what if Earth fell at the battle of the Line.

 

[Kibbles]

What if instead of just Dukhat the entire grey council was killed.

Or what if Earth fell at the battle of the Line.

The first wouldn't change much. Maybe the Minbari are more vengeful, but it would hardly make the situation worse ...

Though it may lead to the Earth has fallen scenario as there wouldn't be anyone to speak with the Vorlon visitors and stop the conflict at the last minute.

Modern states, even sci-fi ones are generally near-immune to such strikes. Short of being an absolute monarchy without any existing heirs, it's easy to simply pick a new leadership. It only makes said state angrier than they would have been if you eliminated only some of the leaders.

The second would make for an interesting scenario. Earth did evacuate a lot of people into, presumably, uncharted space. Though you can forget them ever working with the Minbari or anyone else at all. LONAW turned their back on Earth and the Minbari destroyed it. One thing's certain, there wouldn't be no Babylon stations and Deathwalker would be a saint compared to what humans would do. Biological and chemical warfare, terrorism, piracy ... you name it, they'd be up to their eyebrows in it.

And the Shadows gain free allies. All they really need to do is promise vengeance and humans are onboard the Darwinian bandwagon faster than the Shadows can blink.

 

[lask]

Likewise you're also misrepresenting a Base Delta Zero as well. It doesn't take several days, it takes several hours, exactly how many is unknown, but definitely less than a day. Three Star Destroyers can carry one out while also preventing any escape, jamming all communications and completing the job before anyone arrives to see why communications have stopped. BDZ's are also mentioned as blasting off entire atmospheres, leaving surfaces as evenly cratered wastelands and causing so much damage that it's easier to terraform a completely new planet than try to restore the targeted one.

Actually, that's wrong. It take a Star Destroyer hours to pull off, and it normally isn't cooking off the atmosphere, but reducing a good portion of the crust to molten slag. The Interdictor-class from the KotOR Era would took at least 3 of them, and with that many it would take a few days which is shown in KotOR with Taris.

It takes a lot of firepower to shatter a planet or at least rip it apart barring some of the more exotic options such as deorbiting a moon or the like which a Star Destroyer is technically capable of, at least according to the RPG stats.

KotOR isn't a good source, since it happens thousends of years before the main trilogy.

 

[SotF]

KotOR isn't a good source, since it happens thousends of years before the main trilogy.

Actually, I was mentioning that the small fleet part came from KotOR, the first direct mention of DBZ had it as something a single star destroyer could do in hours.

KotOR gave a visual, but most people don't instantly relate that its quite some time between KotOR and when Star Destroyers started coming onto the battlefield, just that it's Star Wars...

As a side note, the deorbiting a moon was because the WEG gave power levels of what tractor beams could do, they can easily move an asteroid of sufficient mass that you could accelerate your ship and launch it at the right angle to mess with the orbit...

 

[MC80a Liberty]

Actually, that's wrong. It take a Star Destroyer hours to pull off, and it normally isn't cooking off the atmosphere, but reducing a good portion of the crust to molten slag. The Interdictor-class from the KotOR Era would took at least 3 of them, and with that many it would take a few days which is shown in KotOR with Taris.

It takes a lot of firepower to shatter a planet or at least rip it apart barring some of the more exotic options such as deorbiting a moon or the like which a Star Destroyer is technically capable of, at least according to the RPG stats.

While it's true a BDZ doesn't always involve blasting off the atmosphere it is capable of doing so. In Scavenger Hunt a trio of star destroyers attacked Dankayo and blew off the atmosphere, atomized the topsoil and left the surface evenly cratered.

 

[DhampyrX2]

Face it, we all just want to see Vader Force choking any Minbari warrior stupid enough to mouth off to him. Or better yet, engaging in a hand to hand duel and assuming superiority. Fancy metal staff, meet lightsaber. Good bye fancy metal staff.

 

[MWkillkenny84]

What happens if the Earth Alliance attacked by the Minbari is Tohou's Earth?

 

[S J C]

What if instead of just Dukhat the entire grey council was killed.

Or what if Earth fell at the battle of the Line.

The first wouldn't change much. Maybe the Minbari are more vengeful, but it would hardly make the situation worse ...

Though it may lead to the Earth has fallen scenario as there wouldn't be anyone to speak with the Vorlon visitors and stop the conflict at the last minute.

Modern states, even sci-fi ones are generally near-immune to such strikes. Short of being an absolute monarchy without any existing heirs, it's easy to simply pick a new leadership. It only makes said state angrier than they would have been if you eliminated only some of the leaders.

The second would make for an interesting scenario. Earth did evacuate a lot of people into, presumably, uncharted space. Though you can forget them ever working with the Minbari or anyone else at all. LONAW turned their back on Earth and the Minbari destroyed it. One thing's certain, there wouldn't be no Babylon stations and Deathwalker would be a saint compared to what humans would do. Biological and chemical warfare, terrorism, piracy ... you name it, they'd be up to their eyebrows in it.

And the Shadows gain free allies. All they really need to do is promise vengeance and humans are onboard the Darwinian bandwagon faster than the Shadows can blink.

Actually IIRC some of the LONAW did try and send aid to earth but the ships were either lost in hyperspace or the Mimbari popped into there home systems and told them to but out or else the Mimbari would kill them next.

 

[SotF]

Actually, that's wrong. It take a Star Destroyer hours to pull off, and it normally isn't cooking off the atmosphere, but reducing a good portion of the crust to molten slag. The Interdictor-class from the KotOR Era would took at least 3 of them, and with that many it would take a few days which is shown in KotOR with Taris.

It takes a lot of firepower to shatter a planet or at least rip it apart barring some of the more exotic options such as deorbiting a moon or the like which a Star Destroyer is technically capable of, at least according to the RPG stats.

While it's true a BDZ doesn't always involve blasting off the atmosphere it is capable of doing so. In Scavenger Hunt a trio of star destroyers attacked Dankayo and blew off the atmosphere, atomized the topsoil and left the surface evenly cratered.

It may not have been a BDZ then, there are other levels of orbital bombardment. BDZ renders the planet uninhabitable for quite some time and is thus rarely used (I believe that the initial mention of it had it be used fewer times than the human character could count on one hand...)

 

[andaandyckas]

~snip~



Now to go back to a different genre with Robotech. Honestly, what you need is some kind of lost squadron or another showing up during the war. Rick Hunter and the SDF-3 showing up with the fleet they were planning to use to take back Earth from the Invid would work.

Already been done at Anime Addventure.

Forgot the name of the thread, but it is there. The SDF - 3 folded at the Battle of The Line, and they Kick the Bonehead ass, very hard.

 

[bissek]

An intervention neither side would care for: a Waagh passes through the area during the Battle of the Line.

 

[Oni_kawaii]

Actually IIRC some of the LONAW did try and send aid to earth but the ships were either lost in hyperspace or the Mimbari popped into there home systems and told them to but out or else the Mimbari would kill them next.

Nope the LONAW and Centari never recevied a warning from the Minbari.
they were just afraid that the Minbari would glass them.
Narn sold a few trinkets to earth on the sly.

An intervention neither side would care for: a Waagh passes through the area during the Battle of the Line.

Well the Minbari are going to be pissed and Earth is still fucked.
The only upside for earth is more time to evacuate since the minbari are busy with the orcs

And the Shadows gain free allies. All they really need to do is promise vengeance and humans are onboard the Darwinian bandwagon faster than the Shadows can blink.

It was the twilight of the age of mankind - 14 years after the fall of earth.
The Beowulf project was was a dream, given form. it's goal setting the galaxy aflame.
Human and Drakh working side by side to bring forword the long night.
The year is 2261 The place: Z'ha'dum

 

[DhampyrX2]

~snip~



Now to go back to a different genre with Robotech.á Honestly, what you need is some kind of lost squadron or another showing up during the war.á Rick Hunter and the SDF-3 showing up with the fleet they were planning to use to take back Earth from the Invid would work.

Already been done at Anime Addventure.

Forgot the name of the thread, but it is there. The SDF - 3 folded at the Battle of The Line, and they Kick the Bonehead ass, very hard.

Doesn't mean one of us can't try to write it here. Cyclone did a good one over at FF.net where B5 Earth actually WAS Robotech Earth a couple of hundred years later. They sent an emergency force to New Tirol and picked up the hidden cache of "banned" and forgotten protoculture-era tech to help them fight back. And managed to pull the Sentinels Alliance in to help them. Everything got brought up and dusted off for the war effort: the old SDF-1 (which was still in one piece after the war in the Macross movies even if it was decommissioned), the Grand Cannon, even the Shadow Veritechs.

Granted the ending was a little weak in that B5 canon still happened and the only real change was humans giving a fight back to the Minbari that ended with them on a more even footing. (Okay, granted, it looked like Earth and the Sentinels would win in before the Minbari captured Sinclair and did their canon surrender which is more than an even footing but it still started canon B5 back up with the addition of fold drives and reflex weaponry.)

And it looks like possible the Invid or another old skeleton will pop up later because they brought back protoculture, although I don't know if Cyclone will continue the series.

 

[MC80a Liberty]

It may not have been a BDZ then, there are other levels of orbital bombardment. BDZ renders the planet uninhabitable for quite some time and is thus rarely used (I believe that the initial mention of it had it be used fewer times than the human character could count on one hand...)

Just to note, a BDZ doesn't render a planet temporarily uninhabitable, it's meant to be permanent to the point where a whole new biosphere would need to form from scratch to recover naturally and so devastating that even with artificial means and decades later it's still better to attempt to alter a completely barren planet than restore the targeted one.

"it is the systematic complete destruction of all 'assets' of production, including factories, arable land, mines, fisheries, and all sentient beings and droids." (Imperial Sourcebook")
"the Imperial code order to destroy all population centres and resources, including industry, natural resources and cities." (Star Wars Adventure Journal #2, p.256)
"Caamas is now a dead world. Devastated shortly after the Clone Wars by an orbital bombardment ordered by the Emperor, Caamas's vegatation and animal life - including most of the Caamasi people- died in the space of a day." (New Jedi Order Sourcebook, p. 45)


That does seem to put the level of damage on Dankayo within what a BDZ is capable of.

 

[SotF]

It may not have been a BDZ then, there are other levels of orbital bombardment. BDZ renders the planet uninhabitable for quite some time and is thus rarely used (I believe that the initial mention of it had it be used fewer times than the human character could count on one hand...)

Just to note, a BDZ doesn't render a planet temporarily uninhabitable, it's meant to be permanent to the point where a whole new biosphere would need to form from scratch to recover naturally and so devastating that even with artificial means and decades later it's still better to attempt to alter a completely barren planet than restore the targeted one.

"it is the systematic complete destruction of all 'assets' of production, including factories, arable land, mines, fisheries, and all sentient beings and droids." (Imperial Sourcebook")
"the Imperial code order to destroy all population centres and resources, including industry, natural resources and cities." (Star Wars Adventure Journal #2, p.256)
"Caamas is now a dead world. Devastated shortly after the Clone Wars by an orbital bombardment ordered by the Emperor, Caamas's vegatation and animal life - including most of the Caamasi people- died in the space of a day." (New Jedi Order Sourcebook, p. 45)


That does seem to put the level of damage on Dankayo within what a BDZ is capable of.

Uninhabitable means something very different in SW than in most places. There are domed cities and things of that sort that can let people settle there.

 

[MC80a Liberty]

It may not have been a BDZ then, there are other levels of orbital bombardment. BDZ renders the planet uninhabitable for quite some time and is thus rarely used (I believe that the initial mention of it had it be used fewer times than the human character could count on one hand...)

Just to note, a BDZ doesn't render a planet temporarily uninhabitable, it's meant to be permanent to the point where a whole new biosphere would need to form from scratch to recover naturally and so devastating that even with artificial means and decades later it's still better to attempt to alter a completely barren planet than restore the targeted one.

"it is the systematic complete destruction of all 'assets' of production, including factories, arable land, mines, fisheries, and all sentient beings and droids." (Imperial Sourcebook")
"the Imperial code order to destroy all population centres and resources, including industry, natural resources and cities." (Star Wars Adventure Journal #2, p.256)
"Caamas is now a dead world. Devastated shortly after the Clone Wars by an orbital bombardment ordered by the Emperor, Caamas's vegatation and animal life - including most of the Caamasi people- died in the space of a day." (New Jedi Order Sourcebook, p. 45)


That does seem to put the level of damage on Dankayo within what a BDZ is capable of.

Uninhabitable means something very different in SW than in most places. There are domed cities and things of that sort that can let people settle there.

Well, I kind of thought it was a given that I meant uninhabitable outside of an artificial, sealed habitat.