Nasuverse FSN + SAO: j-jam it in!
- Thread starter daniel_gudman
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Nah Shirou's Contender would be the opposite, rather than a trump card he'd make it a Conceptual Weapon built around the Concept of "Easy to Trace" or so and then just spam 'em by the hundreds. Or maybe something perfectly aligned with "Sword" is super-easy to express with "Sword"? But it would definitely exploit that he's the "blacksmith hero" and really leverage the meaning of "Unlimited Blade Works". I dunno if that's gonna happen, but I have thought about it. Compared to the bazooka of Caladbolg II, Contender II would be like a machine gun is what I mean.
Well for the other one, since Sacchi canonically was unsuited for CQC she's really be better off trying to shoot Goddam Altrouge (ideally from behind, and far away, while Altrouge is busy changing a tire or something), rather than shank a bitch in a cut-her-up contest. That would be an extremely difficult contest for Sacchi to win.
Actually it would probably be most reliable to go full-on Emiya-Style Heroism and make like an Origin Car Bomb so you don't even have to wait for her to get a flat tire, you just rig it up so she gets a big surprise when she starts the ignition.
ANYWAY
Over in the preview thread lask had some pretty interesting things to say, things that sounded like this:
But then deathwings rained on that parade:
I would like to address what lask has to say more substantively.
I dig what you're saying, but doesn't that make his offer more complicated, because now I have to explain that whole "I am MAGITECH SCIENCE WIZARD" thing instead of just waving my hands about and claiming that it's sign language for Third Magic.
Now there's nothing wrong with making things more complicated and spending more time talking about them as such, but the more something sits in front of the audience, the more important to the story it should be. More importantly, "MAGICTECH SCIENCE WIZARD" is where Kayaba wants to go as an end result, it's not where he's at right now. So far I've only given him the skills necessary to accomplish [Trapping everyone in a Computer Simulation that Turns on the Their Magicalness], and that's a much different skill set, which requires he abruptly know a bunch more things, and then I would have to get into that explanation, and it would be interesting but not important to the story (right now). It could be important much later but I'm not sure. This is where if I was writing more professionally I would move on and come back when I was 100,000 words farther in and see which worked better.
Also, Kayaba's whole motivation is based on the idea that Conservation of Specialness is a Fallacy. He has absolutely no problem with Ilya learning from him (as long as she doesn't short-circuit the whole Aincrad thing). So what really captured my imagination was the idea that he could offer her something that would not only save her, but that she could use to improve herself as a magus. It's important to me that everyone in the game becomes as powerful and skilled as they possibly can, because that's Kayaba's goal, even if they end up seeking revenge on him. He's willing to expose himself to that level of danger if it means accomplishing his goal, [End the Masquerade].
So I liked that "this is Kinda like the Third Magic, huh?" thing because it allows Kayaba to not only save her, but also teach her, which is his ultimate goal for everyone in the game.
Well for the other one, since Sacchi canonically was unsuited for CQC she's really be better off trying to shoot Goddam Altrouge (ideally from behind, and far away, while Altrouge is busy changing a tire or something), rather than shank a bitch in a cut-her-up contest. That would be an extremely difficult contest for Sacchi to win.
Actually it would probably be most reliable to go full-on Emiya-Style Heroism and make like an Origin Car Bomb so you don't even have to wait for her to get a flat tire, you just rig it up so she gets a big surprise when she starts the ignition.
ANYWAY
Over in the preview thread lask had some pretty interesting things to say, things that sounded like this:
But then deathwings rained on that parade:
I would like to address what lask has to say more substantively.
I dig what you're saying, but doesn't that make his offer more complicated, because now I have to explain that whole "I am MAGITECH SCIENCE WIZARD" thing instead of just waving my hands about and claiming that it's sign language for Third Magic.
Now there's nothing wrong with making things more complicated and spending more time talking about them as such, but the more something sits in front of the audience, the more important to the story it should be. More importantly, "MAGICTECH SCIENCE WIZARD" is where Kayaba wants to go as an end result, it's not where he's at right now. So far I've only given him the skills necessary to accomplish [Trapping everyone in a Computer Simulation that Turns on the Their Magicalness], and that's a much different skill set, which requires he abruptly know a bunch more things, and then I would have to get into that explanation, and it would be interesting but not important to the story (right now). It could be important much later but I'm not sure. This is where if I was writing more professionally I would move on and come back when I was 100,000 words farther in and see which worked better.
Also, Kayaba's whole motivation is based on the idea that Conservation of Specialness is a Fallacy. He has absolutely no problem with Ilya learning from him (as long as she doesn't short-circuit the whole Aincrad thing). So what really captured my imagination was the idea that he could offer her something that would not only save her, but that she could use to improve herself as a magus. It's important to me that everyone in the game becomes as powerful and skilled as they possibly can, because that's Kayaba's goal, even if they end up seeking revenge on him. He's willing to expose himself to that level of danger if it means accomplishing his goal, [End the Masquerade].
So I liked that "this is Kinda like the Third Magic, huh?" thing because it allows Kayaba to not only save her, but also teach her, which is his ultimate goal for everyone in the game.
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The big problem there is that... he's offering the Third. The Third could totally restore Ilya, or rather makes it irrelevant as she live on in her own externalized soul that is now immortal and perfect, while she runs around and resurrect anyone who interests her, until she transcends to another level of existence and leaves all this meaningless crap behind.
It just... yeah, its a True Magic. Recovering it is such a huge deal that it would warp the whole story around itself. I mean, look at everything the Kaleidoscope does, look at how broken Blue is. The Third is a peer to those things. It's Miracle, and it's presence demands respect.
It just... yeah, its a True Magic. Recovering it is such a huge deal that it would warp the whole story around itself. I mean, look at everything the Kaleidoscope does, look at how broken Blue is. The Third is a peer to those things. It's Miracle, and it's presence demands respect.
The Einzbern has had that fragment of theirs for...centuries. Their method has obviously not worked.
What Kayaba offers is an alternative approach, something that no Einzbern would think of, and precisely because of that, it is something that could possibly have a better chance of succeeding than their current method. Which, again, has not worked.
And, it might not work. But that's no problem, he's not offering the Third per se, but a possible chance at it.
Now, what I would change is the blase way he's talking about it.
He's like, giving his reasons for why Ilya should agree...then at the end, to paraphrase:
"Oh by the way if you agree you might recover the Third."
There's really not a lot of background on how really amazing that claim is, it relies a bit on the reader's comprehension that damn that is really a big carrot. Which all readers might not be aware of.
A bit of history lesson in a sentence or two might lend the sort of gravitas such a claim should convey.
What Kayaba offers is an alternative approach, something that no Einzbern would think of, and precisely because of that, it is something that could possibly have a better chance of succeeding than their current method. Which, again, has not worked.
And, it might not work. But that's no problem, he's not offering the Third per se, but a possible chance at it.
Now, what I would change is the blase way he's talking about it.
He's like, giving his reasons for why Ilya should agree...then at the end, to paraphrase:
"Oh by the way if you agree you might recover the Third."
There's really not a lot of background on how really amazing that claim is, it relies a bit on the reader's comprehension that damn that is really a big carrot. Which all readers might not be aware of.
A bit of history lesson in a sentence or two might lend the sort of gravitas such a claim should convey.
Wut.
Next it'll be "distortion".
The thing is, not following the rules or traditions of the Clock Tower or Atlas or wherever, doesn't make you an alien. It just means you don't follow their traditions. Magic user rather than Magus, et cetera.
Anyway, getting back to the topic. Daniel, this is shaping up very nicely indeed. It might even be more addictive than SAO - so, kindly provide a larger hit.
Next it'll be "distortion".
The thing is, not following the rules or traditions of the Clock Tower or Atlas or wherever, doesn't make you an alien. It just means you don't follow their traditions. Magic user rather than Magus, et cetera.
Anyway, getting back to the topic. Daniel, this is shaping up very nicely indeed. It might even be more addictive than SAO - so, kindly provide a larger hit.
Not alien as in TM!distorted, but as in the true sense of the 'xeno' origin of the word: outsider, someone who isn't able to be part of a context. Kayaba isn't part of the association, by choice, perhaps, but as such he will not be able to truly see things from their, selfcentered and elitist as it is, PoV.
That doesn't really help at all. Going this route means either,
a: Ilya fails and she dies midstory as her new body turns back into her old body.
b: Ilya recovers the Third and turns it into a story about The Ilya winning everything forever.
I don't think b would be a fun story, or rather, it might be a fun story on it own, but doesn't really belong in this story. A could work, I guess.
a: Ilya fails and she dies midstory as her new body turns back into her old body.
b: Ilya recovers the Third and turns it into a story about The Ilya winning everything forever.
I don't think b would be a fun story, or rather, it might be a fun story on it own, but doesn't really belong in this story. A could work, I guess.
If she gets a new body, and she hasn't achieved Magic, then she'll still be subject to the rules that will turn it back into her old body, plus any stress the transfer itself causes. There's a reason Zouken uses his worms to body-steal, they give him a fallback when his new body fails, they give him a form to rest in to slow the further disintegration of his soul as he sleeps, and they can grab new bodies very fast becasue he can't keep them very long.
Without the Third Ilya is in the same position as Zouken, without the worms. That is, dead in short order.
Without the Third Ilya is in the same position as Zouken, without the worms. That is, dead in short order.
I was trying to go for Kayaba deliberately delivering it with understatement; like, "this is such a big deal I don't need to make a big deal out of it."
Whelp, guess that didn't work though. Maybe I'll try a few other things. I feel like Kayaba's the kind of guy that delivers really melodramatic announcements, but does so with a simple "that's the way it is" kind of voice. I'll see if I can do that better.
See, in my mind, in the first place, whether it's option [A] or is something that's like 10 years away, minimum. So before that gets determined, the whole entire rest of the story happens. What Avider called option [C] is the short-term goal, and then Ilya will try and figure out what she can do.
...Actually, since Zelretch is the guy who runs Clock Tower, it's easy for me to assume he's someone who endorses and approves of the Masquerade; maybe having a True Wizard on Team Kayaba is needed just to force That Guy into MAD.
Since Ilya is definitely the type that starts fights, it isn't impossible to imagine a scenario called Die Lorelei vs Dat Lorelei, for example. I dunno whether that would be a punching contest or a screaming contest though. Well since Kotomine isn't around to have a Trollgasm at the second choice there I probably wouldn't bother. Wait, there is one though...? I dunno.
Really my point is that since Kayaba is looking to reform human civilization in its entirety, literally anyone in the Nasuverse could theoretically get dragged in by stakeholders and forced have an opinion, to pick sides. Anyone. So there are plenty of contestants who could totally punch out Wizard!Ilya.
Whelp, guess that didn't work though. Maybe I'll try a few other things. I feel like Kayaba's the kind of guy that delivers really melodramatic announcements, but does so with a simple "that's the way it is" kind of voice. I'll see if I can do that better.
See, in my mind, in the first place, whether it's option [A] or is something that's like 10 years away, minimum. So before that gets determined, the whole entire rest of the story happens. What Avider called option [C] is the short-term goal, and then Ilya will try and figure out what she can do.
...Actually, since Zelretch is the guy who runs Clock Tower, it's easy for me to assume he's someone who endorses and approves of the Masquerade; maybe having a True Wizard on Team Kayaba is needed just to force That Guy into MAD.
Since Ilya is definitely the type that starts fights, it isn't impossible to imagine a scenario called Die Lorelei vs Dat Lorelei, for example. I dunno whether that would be a punching contest or a screaming contest though. Well since Kotomine isn't around to have a Trollgasm at the second choice there I probably wouldn't bother. Wait, there is one though...? I dunno.
Really my point is that since Kayaba is looking to reform human civilization in its entirety, literally anyone in the Nasuverse could theoretically get dragged in by stakeholders and forced have an opinion, to pick sides. Anyone. So there are plenty of contestants who could totally punch out Wizard!Ilya.
That problem is what Kayaba is offering to solve. It's not a simple body transfer, she could do that herself.
I don't actually think she'll need the whole Third to solve her problem, though certainly getting the Third would solve it. It's kinda too inclusive like that.
No yeah I totally get that vibe, his whole off-handedness. I just think that he could do it with some context. Something like paraphrase,
"Oh yeah, you guys have been searching for the Third for x00 years, right? Maybe this can help with that too."
Or you could move it to Ilya, like I think someone mentioned before.
I don't actually think she'll need the whole Third to solve her problem, though certainly getting the Third would solve it. It's kinda too inclusive like that.
No yeah I totally get that vibe, his whole off-handedness. I just think that he could do it with some context. Something like paraphrase,
"Oh yeah, you guys have been searching for the Third for x00 years, right? Maybe this can help with that too."
Or you could move it to Ilya, like I think someone mentioned before.
He doesn't run the Clock Tower, but yeah it wouldn't be a shock if he upholds the Masquerade, since pretty much all magus do, though I doubt he'd really care to do anything about it other than not reveal it himself.
He's less final boss or story boss and more hidden side boss.
...Generally it seems like all Magic Users are like that. Or dead.
He's less final boss or story boss and more hidden side boss.
...Generally it seems like all Magic Users are like that. Or dead.
Zelretch doesn't run the Clock Tower; he's a very lose member who shows up occasionally, but mostly does his own thing. He's more self-involved then anything, and wouldn't care about the outcome of all of this one way or the other. Or rather, he might care, but he wouldn't involve himself, and he would care due to how interesting it is and what his personal connection was to the people involved.
People joke about it, but it's far to say that Zelretch punched out Type-Moon because he didn't like his face, not out of any sense of righteousness.
The closest the Clock Tower has to a 'ruler' would be Lord El-Melloi II, who is a solid middle of the road Magus but a competent administrator. Even there, he runs it due to a mix of competence, political connection, and no one else wanting the position. It's an organization with a great deal of inertia, it mostly runs itself. That isn't to belittle El-Melloi power, but it's a mix of soft power and specific powers spelled out, from what we understand.
People joke about it, but it's far to say that Zelretch punched out Type-Moon because he didn't like his face, not out of any sense of righteousness.
The closest the Clock Tower has to a 'ruler' would be Lord El-Melloi II, who is a solid middle of the road Magus but a competent administrator. Even there, he runs it due to a mix of competence, political connection, and no one else wanting the position. It's an organization with a great deal of inertia, it mostly runs itself. That isn't to belittle El-Melloi power, but it's a mix of soft power and specific powers spelled out, from what we understand.
Regarding the Third Magic discussion, it might be possible for Kayaba to fix Illya's problems without using Magic. Heaven's Feel is defined as "Manifestation of the Soul", not "Manipulation of the Soul".
In fact, we have canonical examples of the latter case being Magecraft - Magic Crests (specifically, that they can be created, altered and transferred) and that Illya's circuits (and thus her soul) were altered in some way to make her a Lesser Grail.
In fact, we have canonical examples of the latter case being Magecraft - Magic Crests (specifically, that they can be created, altered and transferred) and that Illya's circuits (and thus her soul) were altered in some way to make her a Lesser Grail.
Excuse me if I'll take that with a grain of salt.
Hm...I guess I'll search for it a bit later...I think I remember the context where it was stated anyways.
Wait no, yeah that sounds about right. Kagetsu Tohya I think...I don't have a readily available copy...I should get one to verify exactly what's up in there.
Oh but I did find a gem:
So if you're planning on having Zelretch in, that might help.
Hm...I guess I'll search for it a bit later...I think I remember the context where it was stated anyways.
Wait no, yeah that sounds about right. Kagetsu Tohya I think...I don't have a readily available copy...I should get one to verify exactly what's up in there.
Oh but I did find a gem:
So if you're planning on having Zelretch in, that might help.