Nasuverse FSN + SAO: j-jam it in!

lcpoketoon

Well-Known Member
#76
Hmm how about heroes showing up as quest givers and npc trainers but due too Ilya being in the game it linking up too the GT and causeing the npc too link with their leagends. I had the idea og Gil's quest being you have too fight a set number of guards he sets against the player and based on how many you defeat he gives you as a reward a rare item.

With Arthuria who is a npc trainer if you finish the quest too find an meet her you gain the sword/magic skill parna burst.

just some ideas that jumped out at me.
 
#77
While the idea of NPCs based off of real world magi, servants, and other moonlit world denizens has merit, I don't think that they'll be able to teach all that many of their skills. The greatest limit to the NPC teaching the players in SAO their skills is one quite firmly rooted in reality. How much does Kayaba Akihiko know about the various schools of thaumaturgy and the skills the real world magi use?

The basics I can easily see a genius like Kayaba acquiring. With Zouken as a backer and probably a few indirect ins with Clocktower and potentially other magus associations, it is possible, albeit difficult, for Kayaba to gain knowledge of at the least the basics of many different schools of thaumaturgy. The problem lies in getting knowledge of specific schools of thaumaturgy. Getting and outside perspective of the mysteries and getting a general understanding of what is happening in order to simulate them in SAO is one thing. Especially when within SAO Kayaba essentially possesses a Marble Phantasm via the Cardinal system. However, the nuances and specifics of various schools of magecraft are almost certainly far beyond him.

Using the earlier example of Rin, I am certain that Kayaba has a general understanding of Rin's jewelcraft and could create simulations within SAO in order to mimic her magecraft style. However, he would NOT know the exact specifics. As such an NPC Rin might be able to give the general idea behind her school of thaumaturgy, however she would NOT be able to give anything specific enough to really jumpstart their progress.

Similarly with Saber teaching Prana Burst, Kayaba could probably have an NPC tell players the gist of how it works, however specifics and nuances would have to be made by the player. Not to mention the skill requires insane amounts of prana to utilize effectively.

Let's not even get into things like the Demon hunters whose powers are passed on via their bloodline.

In the end, I think that any NPC Kayaba makes based on a real world magus would ultimately be used for inspiring the players. Give them a glimpse of what real world magi have accomplished and the kinds of things that are possible in modern times through usage of thaumaturgy. However, they could not be used as tutors outside of the basics of various thaumaturgic schools that Kayaba managed to gather.

Make no mistake... The vast majority of players in SAO are to put it quite bluntly, first generation magi. The lowest slot in the totem pole within the magus community. The magi that the elder families look down upon only slightly less than the mundane riff raff. What Kayaba is trying to do via SAO is activate their latent circuits and jump start their thaumaturgic studies by giving them easy access to the basics, and FORCING them to improve them for the sake of survival. In some ways, you could say that Kayaba is trying to force them into a situation that early humans were in during the Age of Gods where thaumaturgy was commonplace and as such improving wasn't just a matter of pride, prestige, or academic fulfillment... It was a matter of surviving against the monsters that roamed the world at the time. This is all for the sake of awakening more magi and at the same time making sure this first batch of magi he has created will survive the inevitable fallout that occurs when they awaken after SAO is finished.

Actually, more than being teachers of thaumaturgy... I actually see real world magi based NPCs as being used for lessons about the Moonlit World itself. If Kayaba wants to prepare all these people to survive against Clocktower, Dead Apostles, Demons, and all the other nasties that live in the Nasuverse, there's no better place to familiarize his players with them than in Sword Art Online.

After all, where else could he create simulated Dead Apostles for his players to fight without any actual risk of being turned? Or the monstrous enforcers of Clocktower who will almost certainly be sent to Japan once word of Kayaba's actions reach them? In hindsight... These two years in SAO could raise the average frontliner to enforcer level. As for the elite frontliners... *grins* Well... we've seen Shirou's potential in the form of UBW and its entirely possible that there are a few other natural geniuses who might stand beside him by the end of Sword Art Online.

...

Wait... With that reasoning... Oh god... If spending more time in SAO means more time to raise the level of players and more time to get stronger... Ending Sword Art Online early like Kirito did in canon is no longer a blessing... It's a damn curse!

*** Another Snippet ***

*CLANG*

The sharp sound of metal caused everyone to freeze. None more so that the black swordsman who had just swung his two swords, Elucidator and Dark Repulser.

Kirito's eyes were wide as his charge forward was stopped by the last person he thought would ever get in his way.

"I can't let you do this Kirito." Emiya Shirou said through clenched teeth. The twin blades Kanshou and Bakuya held firmly in his hands in an overhead guard position. Behind him Heathcliff, no... Kayaba Akihiko looked on in undisguised interest.

However the moment soon ended and Kirito's face tightened. The dual blades user jumped back and glared at Shirou. "Get out of the way Shirou. I'm going to end this game right here and now. I won't lose so move and let me stop all this without any more sacrifices!"

For a moment Shirou's expression became conflicted before it hardened. "No Kirito. You don't understand. I'm not worried about your chances of beating Kayaba. It's just that I can't let you end the game early. I don't know why Kayaba would even make this offer to you in the first place, but for the sake of surviving the aftermath of all this we cannot leave without being strong enough to clear all one-hundred floors the hard way."

Before Kirito could say another word another firm voice was heard. "He's right. Ending the game now would only put all of us in greater danger." Ilya stood up, having somehow overcome the paralysis that Kayaba had inflicted on the raid via Cardinal as well. "Calm down Kirito. We'll explain things to you afterwards. Just trust us when we say continuing the game is in all our best interests."

"How can you say that?" Kirito said softly. "Have you forgotten how many people have died in this raid alone? Have you forgotten how many people died just getting here in the first place? If I stop Kayaba right here and now then there won't be any more deaths! Every single one of us still alive will return to the real world! We'll all be safe!"

"No we won't Kirito! We'll be in even greater danger than we are now." Even as Shirou's grip on his swords tightened he looked frustrated. "We're not ready to face the Association and all the other denizens of the Moonlit World as we are right now. As a whole we all need to get stronger and to do that we need to get all the way to the top of Aincrad the hard way! Just trust me on this!"

"So you want us to sacrifice how many more people just so the overall strength of our group is higher? Don't screw with me Shirou! I'm ending things right here and now. We're strong enough as is. So get out of my way!" Kirito fell into a ready stance.

For a few more moments Shirou looked troubled before he sighed. He extended his right pointer finger and drew it through the air. With a variety of quiet pings, the "Hero of Justice" manipulated his menu before a window suddenly popped up in front of Kirito.

The black swordsman's eyes widened before narrowing again. "Are you serious Shirou? You want us to take the long way so badly that you're willing to do this?"

The other twin blade user nodded. "I am. Let's settle this with a duel. First one below 50% loses. If I lose I step aside and let you fight Kayaba. No... I'll even burn all my remaining od to provide you with any one sword of your choice from my arsenal to use as a trump card against him."

Kirito's eyes widened. That WOULD be a major advantage. Shirou had figured out how to modify the ownership of his swords so that others could use them, however the problem was altering them in such a way drastically increased their prana cost. As such, Shirou was unable to do so very often as it severely hampered his own battle prowess. It was a good deal. However... "And I assume that if I lose Kayab goes to the 100th floor and we beat the game the hard way..."

"Yes." Shirou's reply was simple and straightforward. There was no need to say more.

For a moment there was absolute silence. Finally it was broken. "Fine Shirou. Let's settle this... Let's duel." He pressed the accept button.

Off to the side, still paralyzed by the marble phantasm class paralysis imposed by Kayaba, Yuuki Asuna looked up at the impending battle in absolute horror. "How... How did it come to this?" She sorrowfully entreated as the timer continued to spin down.

*Ding*

With that simple chime the two twin swords of Aincrad, the two strongest frontline magi, the two greatest heroes of Sword Art Online, and the two men who counted each other as among their closest friends and comrades began a battle between themselves for the fate of all the players who had placed their hopes in them.

*CLANG*


***

I seem to be on a snippet roll lately.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#78
Thanks for the input everyone! I really appreciate it. I'm gonna spew more thoughts out now.

Kayaba and Ilya's deal

I realized I hadn't described this as explicitly as I thought I did.

It's Kayaba saying something like, "Play my game sincerely, and I'll save your life." Obviously, if Ilya tries to escape, or leak information to the real world, he'll fry her brain. That's a unilateral warning from Kayaba. But you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, so he offers to reward Ilya as compensation if she willingly cooperates with him.

If it's "explaining that people don't actually die", Ilya might be penalized for leaking that to the player base, and anyway, Kayaba could start frying brains whenever he wants so it could be retroactively true, and for all they know, people get moved to a [Hell server that simulations damnation] and be continuously tortured when [HP goes to zero], so it could still be pretty scary.

...Ilya would tell Shirou she learned that people don't actually die when HP goes to zero so he'd focus on playing the game with her instead of focusing on saving people from death.

Since her fundamental objective is "monopolizing Shirou's time", it's not like Ilya actually has any particular objections to being trapped in SAO (with Shirou).

...From Ilya's perspective, what Shirou doesn't know won't hurt him. So the deal between Ilya and Kayaba will remain their little secret.

Illfang

I think I know what I'm going to do now...

I really like Spectrum's "use familiars" idea, so rather than pulling out a huge katana, when he pulls out his Tulwar, Illfang's body will be completely over-run with worms and he'll get something like Mad Enhancement, or something like Worm Reassembly-Style Regeneration.

In floor 2, the REAL Floor Boss will be some kinda tapeworm monster riding in a sub-Boss, as an extension of what we saw with Illfang.

In floor 3, the Boss will be a knockoff of a Mongolian Death Worm.

In floor 4, we'll get slime-type worms that are nearly immune to physical attacks.

In floor 5, a Zouken expy. He's basically immortal until you figure out how to kill him, and he's a body-snatcher. His death animation will be a speech announcing there are no Safe Zones above his floor.

I like this because I can establish that Zouken was Kayaba's magecraft instructor without bonkin' the audience over the head with it.

Shirou's Salvation Targets

I like the symmetry of saving Diabel and Kaibou and using their responses as a contrast. That's really good, Shadow Zeranion.

Well, I might move the "sincerely thankful" one to the other end of the First Boss Fight so it can be one of the people that was inspired to try to win the game by the victory, like Griselda or Sillica, and so it's not that ham-handed that it's what I'm doing, and so I don't make chapter two overly-long. (Maybe I'll stick a scene like that next to Kirito intervening with the Black Cats and call the chapter "Saving People" or sommat, or he'll interfere with Titan's Hand somehow?).

...I think it would be interesting to make Diabel the suspicious one, although he might bury it under good rhetoric? I want to preserve the nature of Diabel and Kaibou as both fundamentally good, but also flawed, people. Making Kaibou the villain of too many scenes compromises that, and Diabel needs feet of clay.

How much Magecraft does Kayaba know anyway?

For the many years that he's been preparing the game, Kayaba has been focused on accumulating as much spellcraft knowledge as he could, with a special focus on basic and well-established systems. So, something like "Formalcraft" that's well understood and made widely available to 1st-gen mages like him could be very thorough, something like "Runes" that's famous but disfavored might be patchy beyond the generalities, something like "Alchemy" that has many practicioners would be almost schizophrenic. There's an entire Department of Mineralogy at Clock Tower, which is where Rin matriculates after FSN, so I get the impression what she does with gems is something a little rare, but not exactly unusual... especially considering her family is descended from one of many apprentices to a certain famous guy.

Considering that Kayaba has access to Zouken's resources, however, obvious knowledge areas are familiar creation and operation, contract magic, summoning magic (although the Servant system might be too high-level to be worth utilizing), gem-craft from observing the development of the Tohsaka family, and whatever Zouken has extracted from the corpses of participants that lost the Grail War. For example, the doll-magic of 3rd!Assassin's Master.

...I don't know how much would be known from 4!Caster's skills, but compared to Zouken, the similarity is extremely high.

However, magecraft is intensely personal. Rather than teaching people specifics, his goal has been to give them solid foundations, and then provide excellent tools to develop your own unique abilities. Well, from a combat perspective, having an eclectic and personalized system with weird strengths and weaknesses is an advantage from Kayaba's perspective; making it so that there's no "SAO magecraft" that they can be categorized in, that everyone is unique, that diversity means that it's more difficult for the Enforcers to develop SOPs to handling them.

Basically, he's going to deliver everything he knows on a silver platter, with certain exceptions (in particular the theory and operation behind the spells trapping everyone in the game); I expect his "knowledge lead" would be completely exhausted in one year. Which segues nicely to...

Unique Skills? No, Unique Spells!

The [Unique Skills] system from the original game has been removed. If you want to become a special snowflake, rather than unlocking the [Unique Skills], you should develop [Unique Spells].

[Dual Blades], for example, isn't a unique skill, but [Dual Wielding] can be accomplished simply by equipping two [Weapons Skills] and then equipping a [Weapon] in each hand. It's a pretty unremarkable build; it's unpopular because it's a relatively difficult way to fight once you've done it, not because getting there is something difficult or secret. Since Kayaba doesn't want to waste any effort, he turned [Dual Blades] into an extra skill that can be unlocked just be [dual wielding] two [one-handed straight swords] long enough. Well, in a similar fashion, what would have been Heathcliff's [Holy Sword] can be unlocked by equipping a [one-handed straight sword] and a [shield], although it's not as OP as the canon version.

Well, that's a tangent, but to basically sum up, [Sword Skills] are less important than [Spells], and Kayaba's attention and efforts, as well as the changes and incentives he's built into the patch, reflect that. [Sword Skills] are more like a conceit to support the venue of [fight monsters], whereas [Spells] are the reason the whole venue exists.

In terms of frequency, there are NPCs that say if a player doesn't develop even one [Unique Spell], then they fail as a magus. Kabyaba's assumption is that as a category [Unique Spells] will become wide-spread, rather than remain rare, although they will be individually unique.

A little earlier, I said [Unique Spells] are "developed", rather than "unlocked". Kayaba launched when the platform was ready, not necessarily when his magecraft knowledge was ideal. Dealing with his own ignorance and limits are accounted for in Kayaba's plan like this:

If you want to do something the game doesn't have rules for, Kayaba re-purposed the [Mental Health Counseling Program] to access the hypnotic knowledge from [Spell Assist], at which point Yui will compare the imagined parameters to the complete Spell Database of "everything Kayaba knows about magecraft and what can be done with it" and simulate the [Spell] appropriately. If Yui's confidence in the simulation falls below a certain threshold, Kayaba will be asked to intervene, and he'll buy time by creating a [Quest Arc] for the player. The [Quest Arc] will be, rather than pointless fetch quests, as much of the research and development that Kayaba can have the player do in the simulation, while he fills in gaps IRL. In short, exactly the same way he continuously improved [Circuit Activation] as he accumulated more data, he'll support the players' research behind the scenes.

Once the method has solidified and become something repeatable, a [Unique Spell] is changed to an [Extra Spell] and you are free to share or sell it to other players however you wish. Generally speaking, the accumulated knowledge called [Extra Spellbook] or so is a Guild's most valuable asset.

...In short, Kayaba is moderating the crowd-sourced development of magic, rather than simply delivering it as a complete package to the user-base.

Shirou and Tracing

Well, from the start, Shirou's spell of Tracing IRL is too different from normal Projection, so in SAO, if he tries to do it with [Projection], then he'll automatically fail when his method diverges too much from the [Spell Assist]. Well, from the beginning, Fate!Shirou is someone who hasn't realized (yet) that Rin's assessment of "Noble Phantasm Projection is a magic beyond your limits" was flat-out wrong.

...Well, someone creating a [Unique Spell] is already possible, though, so if he completely ignores the [Spell Assist] and just forces it...?

That being said, I'm not sure the Cardinal System's [Automatic Game Balance] feature will handle someone spamming things like [Noble Phantasms] with any grace or equanimity at all. Well, the monsters' numbers will already be inflated dramatically by the players all being as HAX as they can, so it might not be too remarkable. But someone like Thinker that's deeply aware of the programming guts of SAO might ask Shirou to treat [Tracing] as a [Forbidden Magic] just so the game doesn't become murderously hard. Of course, that's assuming it can interpret the data transmitted from UBW without crashing in the first place? So reproducing weapons from inside the game would certainly be possible, but reproducing things from IRL might be too hard on the Common Sense of Aincrad, because [Real World] things are too alien.
 
#79
daniel_gudman said:
Kayaba and Ilya's deal
Ah... That makes sense. The combination of benefit and threat would motivate Ilya to cooperate with Kayaba. The real reason that I thought Kayaba should have made it explicitly a rule that he would make the death penalty real to anyone who knew about him not actually frying brains though was due to the fact that without that rule Shirou would probably tell others in order to calm them down. And he's the one that needs to be kept from shooting his mouth off to other players.

Maybe Kayaba doesn't actually follow through on his threat, but I felt that such a rule would make Shirou VERY hesitant to share the knowledge with anyone. Sure there may be some close friends and allies who he would inform them of the "truth" as he knows it, but only after they were absolutely certain they wanted the knowledge even if it would put their lives in danger.

Ho? Interesting. So you're going to make some "arcs" for floor bosses. With the first 5 floors being more or less Makiri Zouken's floors and therefore worm themed. It is certainly something new.

Shirou's Salvation Targets
Glad to hear you liked my idea. I hope that you have a lot of luck with writing the next part.

As for suspicions... In all honesty, I don't think its a question of IF Shirou and Ilya will be found out as real world magi. The real question is WHEN and HOW.

While I suppose that there are some people who won't make the connection, but I honestly don't see them getting through all of SAO without blowing their cover to at least a few people. Whether its Argo confronting them secretly or Laughing Coffin calling them out as they confront them with the majority of the front liners.

I do see your point about putting too much hate on Kibaou though. I suppose he means well... It's just that his actions in canon REALLY don't paint him in a good light. Especially that stunt with Thinker at the end game. Still, I understand that at least at the beginning he has to remain the hard headed, but ultimately well meaning guy that he is. However, it doesn't change the fact that I don't believe he really understands the situation...

How much Magecraft does Kayaba know anyway?
This makes sense. Kayaba's knowledge base would be skewed quite a bit based on a school's popularity, age, and other such things. For the most part I can see him giving away and tutoring people as much as he could with what he did manage to gather, but ultimately this would all be so that they would have a strong enough foundation to find their own ways once his base ran out.

Unique Skills? No, Unique Spells!
Hmm... This system does make a lot of sense. Though honestly, I hope that people don't go around sharing their unique spells too much. Real world thaumaturgy is weakened by the spreading of mysteries. Or at least that's the most accepted theory. Anyways, it would be a bad habit for the players in SAO to not think of their Unique Spells as anything less than the most valuable possessions in the entire game. As such, even among guild members there shouldn't be much sharing of such spells.

Shirou and Tracing
Oh boy... and now we get to what is honestly one of the touchiest parts of this fic... This is your fic and I'm not gonna tell you what has to happen. However, I will say this much. You should probably to be VERY careful about messing with Shirou's tracing. It's his signature, and only real spell short of calling UBW as a whole into the world. This one section I'll actually break up into sections as I give you my thoughts.

Well, from the start, Shirou's spell of Tracing IRL is too different from normal Projection, so in SAO, if he tries to do it with [Projection], then he'll automatically fail when his method diverges too much from the [Spell Assist]. Well, from the beginning, Fate!Shirou is someone who hasn't realized (yet) that Rin's assessment of "Noble Phantasm Projection is a magic beyond your limits" was flat-out wrong.

...Well, someone creating a [Unique Spell] is already possible, though, so if he completely ignores the [Spell Assist] and just forces it...
I can see the logical sense in this. In some ways I even agree with it. However, messing with Shirou's tracing and making it so it doesn't function as intended is a VERY dangerous move for you to make. I agree that at the end of the Fate route Shirou doesn't fully comprehend that Rin's assessment is wrong. However in that same vein because Shirou doesn't understand his tracing, he is unable to utilize it to the best of his abilities. Tracing is something that could very well be a [Unique Spell] that Shirou possesses from the start of the game. However, its development as a result would be up to him to develop.

That being said, I'm not sure the Cardinal System's [Automatic Game Balance] feature will handle someone spamming things like [Noble Phantasms] with any grace or equanimity at all. Well, the monsters' numbers will already be inflated dramatically by the players all being as HAX as they can, so it might not be too remarkable. But someone like Thinker that's deeply aware of the programming guts of SAO might ask Shirou to treat [Tracing] as a [Forbidden Magic] just so the game doesn't become murderously hard.
While it is true that Shirou being able to spam Noble Phantasms could be overpowered for the early parts of SAO, you have to take into account that at the end of Fate Route tracing is extremely difficult for Shirou to accomplish. Heck, when he traces Caliburn against Gilgamesh it requires all his focus to bring the sword into the world. He is then unable to use its full abilities and it is easily smashed apart by Gilgamesh. He doesn't even seem totally lucid after bringing it into the real world. Even Avalon wasn't easy for him to call forth.

I think... Rather than saying tracing is overpowered and therefore has to be nerfed, you should instead make it so Shirou has to develop tracing in SAO.

If I remember correctly, EMIYA originally took 10 years to develop his tracing to the point he could call upon Unlimited Blade Works. It's possible that Fate Shirou got a small boost from Archer's presence, but it isn't anywhere near the levels he gained from UBW or Heaven's Feel route. Not to mention we don't know how often and how intensely EMIYA trained during those 10 years.

It's entirely possible that Shirou's rate of progress will exceed EMIYA's due to being forced to develop the spell in a death game where he is likely to be fighting for hours at a time almost every single day. And EMIYA likely had to travel to different battlefields and worry about the secrecy of his training.

However, it doesn't change the fact that they'll be trapped for 2-3 years. Less than a third of the time EMIYA took to fully develop his tracing skills.

Shirou won't be tracing Noble Phantasms in combat outside of his incomplete Caliburn too often in the lower floors. Heck, even that tracing is dangerous to use as it takes him time to create it. He only managed it against Berserker and Gilgamesh because Berserker had distractions that gave Shirou time and Gilgamesh was completely looking down on Shirou and wanted to punish him for his insolence. The time it takes for him to pull out even the incomplete Caliburn is enormous in actual battlefield time and is probably unusable outside of a raid. Also, without Saber around, Shirou probably can't push it to the same level as when he and Saber used it in tandem to slay Berserker 7 times.

If anything, Shirou's tracing will probably need to be developed by first tracing the normal mundane weapons that he sees around SAO and developed in later floors as he begins seeing mystic code based weapons such as flaming broadswords, lances with increased power, and shields that absorb extra damage etc. In fact, as training to increase his skills I can actually see Shirou taking up Mystic Code Crafting himself, or at least becoming a regular helper in Lizbeth's store.

However I don't see him being able to regularly trace Noble Phantasms outside of Avalon before at least the one year mark. And before anyone comments, this has happened close enough to the end of the Holy Grail War that I do believe Shirou could still create perfect copies of the Noble Phantasm despite Archer apparently having lost the ability to do so himself by FSN. Heck... It probably would have been a good idea to keep tracing it as practice in order to further his tracing abilities. However, without Saber it's power is HEAVILY nerfed. At this point it probably grants a near insignificant healing ability and almost certainly cannot use its absolute barrier function.

Anyways, this means that Shirou would not be able to pull off Noble Phantasms regularly until around the same time that other players will be getting Unique Spells more regularly themselves. I also see the process being very inefficient at that point and making it so tracing a Noble Phantasm is very much the equivalent of a servant using it in the Holy Grail War. A true trump card that shouldn't be used so lightly.

Maybe near the end of the game like after floor 75 Shirou would begin to learn things like Trace Bullet Continuous Fire and such, but I highly doubt he'd be competent enough in tracing in the early game to make it anything less than a trump card that he couldn't call upon without great risk and one that isn't even at the full power that it should reach.

Of course, that's assuming it can interpret the data transmitted from UBW without crashing in the first place? So reproducing weapons from inside the game would certainly be possible, but reproducing things from IRL might be too hard on the Common Sense of Aincrad, because [Real World] things are too alien.
Once again, I understand this from a logical perspective. However, taking away Shirou's ability to trace Noble Phantasms is something that would make many fans of the Fate series... disappointed to put is politely. I've given you my idea about how Shirou's tracing could be developed earlier. As for Cardinal not being able to handle the tracing of Noble Phantasms... Perhaps have Cardinal running scans and interpreting the data of Shirou's tracing skill from the very first time he begins using it. You've already stated that it would be assisting with the creation of [Unique Spells] with others in a similar fashion. Perhaps you could have Cardinal just devote... Extra resources to observing Shirou's tracing abilities and learning to compensate from day 1. So while most people won't have Cardinal helping them with their spells until 1 year in, Cardinal would never help Shirou with his spell and instead work on being able to accurately portray it from day 1 without crashing. It would grow alongside him in his ability to use the spell and its ability to accurately portray it.

UBW work on the other hand would most likely be impossible to achieve within SAO. It's one thing to overwrite a small patch of reality in order to bring forth a sword. Or even several patches of reality for a barrage. However actively replacing the world? No way could Cardinal handle THAT. Heck if it could then Cardinal would be a monster in terms of computing power and probably fully sentient.

...

Oh wait... :p




Anyways, if you still want to eliminate Shirou's ability to trace real world items and Noble Phantasms that's your choice as a writer. Heck, from a logical perspective there is a lot of good reasons for you to make that call. However, from a fan standpoint I'd encourage you to instead think of a method so that Shirou could trace, but would take him a while to develop so that he doesn't become hax too soon. In the end it's your fic though. I'll probably keep reading regardless personally, but I'm unsure about others. Especially some of the more rabid Nasu fans...
 

Ryune

Well-Known Member
#80
I actually quite like the idea of Cardinal learning how to deal with UBW and tracing. Not only because it helps prevent the game from completely breaking but also because of what UBW represents. UBW isn't a just storage space for reproductions. It is a repository of knowledge. Every blade in it has the complete "life's story" of every hero who wielded them, of how they were made, of what they encountered. UBW is a repository of knowledge for Cardinal to use in refining it's magecraft simulation. I could easily see things like creation of mystic codes being exceptionally refined in later levels along side quests that mimic heroic spirit's legends.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#81
...The idea of Cardinal exploiting "Emiya Shirou" as a resource is very intersting, Ryune. I like it, it's like that Bad End where Caster turned him into a magic wand (of Swords).



Shadow Zeranion said:
Unique Skills? No, Unique Spells!
Hmm... This system does make a lot of sense. Though honestly, I hope that people don't go around sharing their unique spells too much. Real world thaumaturgy is weakened by the spreading of mysteries. Or at least that's the most accepted theory. Anyways, it would be a bad habit for the players in SAO to not think of their Unique Spells as anything less than the most valuable possessions in the entire game. As such, even among guild members there shouldn't be much sharing of such spells.

Shirou and Tracing
...
Overturning that way of thinking is the reason Kayaba established all of this in the first place. He thinks the "thaumaturgy is weakened by overuse" is bunk; he thinks "conservation of specialness" is bunk. He wants to turn as many people as he can into the best magic-users they could possibly be. He wants to establish them in the paradigm of scientists, where prestige only comes to those that freely publish their research, where respect comes from your results overcoming criticism.

Creating that kind of culture and then seeing how they compete with established mage society is the best possible way to test his hypothesis.

...

For Shirou, I want to go a different direction than "catching up with Archer." There are three things that came together for where I want to take his development:

1) He's going to be "filling in the gaps" of the training he's received.

Actually, since he only has the tiny amount that Kiritsugu showed him, and the last-minute crash-course that Rin gave him, his thinking is, "I might as well learn what I don't know, rather than reproduce what I do". Prosaically, in the beginning, that means focusing on Alteration rather than Reinforcement or Projection.

Ilya is in the same position, since she was "prepared as a Master" rather than "trained as a Magus".

Basically, without necessarily realizing it, these two are going to be responding to Kayaba's "become a skilled magic-user" program just like everyone else...?

2) If it's Tracing, I'm going to be pushing Shirou in another direction for now, which in invocation, not evocation. Especially, lines like "my left arm will definitely reproduce the strength of my enemy", or knowing how to shoot a beam of prana with Caliburn, I just want to explore the part of "loading knowledge" compared to "reproducing the weapon".

I want him to be handicapped by thinking "Projection in a magic beyond Emiya Shirou's limits" until he realizes that Rin made a big mistake telling him that. That's an important difference compared to UBW, where EMIYA inadvertently leaked some EMIYA into Emiya so he could EMIYA like EMIYA and everyone not Emiya was wrong to think Emiya could not EMIYA; and HF, where Emiya threw away Emiya's dream and Emiya lost his arm and got a replacement from EMIYA so he just used EMIYA because he threw away Emiya and couldn't Emiya anymore and EMIYA continually erased Emiya until he returned to nothing like before he was Emiya, and then when the empty ruined body was picked up by someone from the Emiya family again, this time he didn't become Emiya, he became a puppet for Sakura and lived happily ever after the end! That's important because it was unique to the Fate ending.

3) He's both interested in and disappointed by [System Assist]; because the programming team designed it for "balanced gameplay" rather than "winning fights", he's frustrated by the artificial handicap that reduces the effectiveness of what's otherwise an excellent method to train fighting skills. It is the closest thing to a [Guide to Moving Like a Hero] that exists aaaand... it's not enough, it was degraded too much.

The result of stirring all three together is...

Call it, [Sword Assist]?

Well, here's a snippet that might change once I get there.

VS Illfang? said:
Yes, it wasn't enough.

This sword wasn't enough. These [Skills] weren't enough. These character statistics weren't enough. The motion library of the [Sword Skills] were not enough.

However, he couldn't blame it all on the game like a child. His own magecraft was too limited. Even in the real world, even if he was capable of everything he could do for real in here, he could not reinforce his body past too-low limits. If he couldn't even reach them, whatever he could create with Projection was meaningless; even creating a bow with an arrow would be too slow. He couldn't do anything else but reinforcement and projection.

He didn't have anything that was enough to win. He didn't have any way to save this person in front of him.

So if he couldn't win, he just had to imagine something that could.

Yes, even if he equipped [Run] or [Acrobatics], he would not be able to reach Illfang in time to save Diabel.

This holographic body couldn't be reinforced any more than it already was. There was nothing in the entire [Sword Skill] database that would allow him to win.

However... inside Emiya Shirou was a much better database.

It was only inside him. It was inside only him. He judged the concept of creation and loved it. Even then, it was incomplete. It was indistinct and lacked form. He hypothesized the basic structure and was amazed by it. It was literally transparent. Because it had been made by fairies, he could not duplicate the composition material nor reproduce the skill of its making. But in exchange, he could sympathize with the experience of growth and reproduce the accumulated years perfectly better than anyone. Even his contractor who had held it could not understand the sword's perspective on events as perfectly as he could. He could not excel every manufacturing process. But those he comprehended, for some limited production, he made it perfect. Even if it was fake, even if it was incomplete, even if Projecting it was impossible, he adored all of it.

Inside him, there was a golden sword on a hill. A girl had held that sword, and fought battles with it. Even against taller and stronger knights, even against giants and dragons, she had held her ground with that sword. That legend was completely captured by his imagination.

Even against that iron-black giant, even while wounded, she had stood her ground. That was something directly transcribed into him through the evidence of his eyes.

Inside his mind, his circuit cocked, and the sword was loaded into the tube as it filled with od.

Comparing himself to her using that crude image was almost laughable. However, comparing this holographic goblin to the iron-black giant was equally laughable. Real greatness was not required. As long as what he achieved was less pathetic--

The sword was loaded, and he pulled the trigger in his soul.

The missile called [Emiya Shirou] was launched. The sword in his hands was primed.

With an impact like a detonating warhead, the [Deathblow] of [Illfang the Kobold Lord] was intercepted and completely blown off course.

Diabel was definitely saved.
I really like that "however, inside Emiya Shirou, there was a much better database" line, but I don't think he'd know enough about UBW, about himself, for it to 100% make sense... yet.

...

Also, any comparisons to Prism Ilya's [Class Card Include] will be IGNORED because that was a coincidence that was only noticed after I thought up something cool.

However if you think it is not cool, if you think instead that it is dumb, that will not be ignored, it will be seriously considered.
 

Archanon

Well-Known Member
#82
Okay I'm going to say this because it's really bothering me.

It's KIBAOU. Not Kaibou. K-I-B-A-O-U. :p

Edit: Eww, new board smileys. -_-
 
#83
daniel_gudman said:
...The idea of Cardinal exploiting "Emiya Shirou" as a resource is very intersting, Ryune. I like it, it's like that Bad End where Caster turned him into a magic wand (of Swords).
Though hopefully without actually turning Shirou into a wand. :3

Still, I think it would be a good idea to have Cardinal learn just as much from Shirou's efforts as Shirou himself does. Honestly, I thought it was a bit disappointing that Yui was the only self-aware AI that we ever saw in SAO. Especially when she was a PART of the entire Cardinal system that ran the whole thing. I don't know if you'll go that far in the future, but I do hope that by learning from Shirou and the other players Cardinal will develop beyond a particularly advanced moderation system.

Overturning that way of thinking is the reason Kayaba established all of this in the first place. He thinks the "thaumaturgy is weakened by overuse" is bunk; he thinks "conservation of specialness" is bunk. He wants to turn as many people as he can into the best magic-users they could possibly be. He wants to establish them in the paradigm of scientists, where prestige only comes to those that freely publish their research, where respect comes from your results overcoming criticism.

Creating that kind of culture and then seeing how they compete with established mage society is the best possible way to test his hypothesis.
Huh... So in other words... Kayaba is trying to prove that the World Egg Theory supported by the Magus Association as well as the Magus Association's method of advancing magecraft is wrong. To be honest, considering that the World Egg Theory is nothing more than simply that... A theory. I don't know how this will actually turn out. Still, even if Kayaba's hypothesis ends up being wrong... I do like the fact that he wants to challenge the system and what everyone accepts to be the truth of the matter.

For Shirou, I want to go a different direction than "catching up with Archer." There are three things that came together for where I want to take his development:

1) He's going to be "filling in the gaps" of the training he's received.

Actually, since he only has the tiny amount that Kiritsugu showed him, and the last-minute crash-course that Rin gave him, his thinking is, "I might as well learn what I don't know, rather than reproduce what I do". Prosaically, in the beginning, that means focusing on Alteration rather than Reinforcement or Projection.

Ilya is in the same position, since she was "prepared as a Master" rather than "trained as a Magus".

Basically, without necessarily realizing it, these two are going to be responding to Kayaba's "become a skilled magic-user" program just like everyone else...?

2) If it's Tracing, I'm going to be pushing Shirou in another direction for now, which in invocation, not evocation. Especially, lines like "my left arm will definitely reproduce the strength of my enemy", or knowing how to shoot a beam of prana with Caliburn, I just want to explore the part of "loading knowledge" compared to "reproducing the weapon".

I want him to be handicapped by thinking "Projection in a magic beyond Emiya Shirou's limits" until he realizes that Rin made a big mistake telling him that. That's an important difference compared to UBW, where EMIYA inadvertently leaked some EMIYA into Emiya so he could EMIYA like EMIYA and everyone not Emiya was wrong to think Emiya could not EMIYA; and HF, where Emiya threw away Emiya's dream and Emiya lost his arm and got a replacement from EMIYA so he just used EMIYA because he threw away Emiya and couldn't Emiya anymore and EMIYA continually erased Emiya until he returned to nothing like before he was Emiya, and then when the empty ruined body was picked up by someone from the Emiya family again, this time he didn't become Emiya, he became a puppet for Sakura and lived happily ever after the end! That's important because it was unique to the Fate ending.

3) He's both interested in and disappointed by [System Assist]; because the programming team designed it for "balanced gameplay" rather than "winning fights", he's frustrated by the artificial handicap that reduces the effectiveness of what's otherwise an excellent method to train fighting skills. It is the closest thing to a [Guide to Moving Like a Hero] that exists aaaand... it's not enough, it was degraded too much.

The result of stirring all three together is...

Call it, [Sword Assist]?

Well, here's a snippet that might change once I get there.

***Insert snippet***

I really like that "however, inside Emiya Shirou, there was a much better database" line, but I don't think he'd know enough about UBW, about himself, for it to 100% make sense... yet.

...

Also, any comparisons to Prism Ilya's [Class Card Include] will be IGNORED because that was a coincidence that was only noticed after I thought up something cool.

However if you think it is not cool, if you think instead that it is dumb, that will not be ignored, it will be seriously considered.
Okay... So from what I can gather what you want is for Shirou to take a different path of tracing than EMIYA, UBW Shirou, or HF Shirou all took.

Instead on focusing on the recreation of Noble Phantasms and letting them guide him with their knowledge once put into the real world... You want Shirou to draw the abilities of the swords... No the history and experiences of the swords' wielders into himself and replicate them using his own body as a medium without pulling the swords out of Unlimited Blade Works itself.

That's...

Okay. I'm not gonna lie. I think that sounds absolutely AWESOME. There's a good chance that other people won't agree with me, but I find the idea of Shirou focusing on a different aspect of his tracing than normal absolutely brilliant.

You'll have to be careful with how much he's able to pull out and channel at each point in his development like in the snippet how his first reproduction of Saber's Prana Burst was absolutely laughable, but given the level of his opponent laughable was enough.

I don't think this idea is stupid at all. It is ambitious. It is a departure from the norm. It is questionable in the eyes of a majority of the Nasu fanbase.

However, for all its potential problems, I think this has the potential to be the most original method to train up a post-canon Emiya Shirou that I have ever seen without moving into the "add another magic system crossover" area.

And in many ways... It is fitting. Archer is supposedly from a post Ilya Route. UBW Shirou's greatest inspiration was Archer. And HF Shirou gave up all he was so that he could borrow Archer's strength and nearly killed himself doing it.

This... This is very much an Emiya Shirou that could only come to be after the Fate route. A Shirou who seems to have truly embraced the idea of becoming a hero. In this case, inspired more by Saber than anyone else and unknowingly having cut off his main path to an extent by mistaken assumptions. True he is a fake hero. But... That doesn't make it any less deep. In this situation he will become a hero who fakes a heroes' abilities and experience first and their weapons second rather than their weapons first and the heroes' history second.

It has advantages and disadvantages compared to the "standard" path that Emiya Shirou takes in faking the weapons first and foremost. This path will most certainly make it harder to use trace bullet, multiple tracing, and broken phantasms. However, it is likely the capabilities of his body and the refinement of his techniques and repertoire of heroes abilities will be improved.

The path has changed but at the same time it doesn't feel like its wrong for Shirou to take it. At least... Not to me.

I still think that you shouldn't stop Shirou's tracing of Noble Phantasms, at least in the late game. Maybe make it so Cardinal eventually learns to understand them enough to render them within the game after getting over a year or so to study Shirou and his magecraft. However, I do think that this path you want to set Shirou on in the beginning, becoming a faker of Heroes first rather than a faker of Weapons has a lot of potential.

I just hope that other people like it as much as I do.
 

Spectrum

Well-Known Member
#84
daniel_gudman said:
Kayaba and Ilya's deal
Hmm. Okay, how does Kayaba find out about Ilya's condition in the first place? What's the triggering event for this? I don't entirely think this is something that Ilya would drop casually.

Further, she's potentially a huge resource for more magical information. Yes, she was intended as a Master and not a true Magus, but she's still quite good at this and lore in general. I imagine there's a fair amount that Zouken wouldn't tell Kayaba that Ilya could be convinced to fill him...for the right price.

I mean, how many real mages do you think Kayaba has in his game? Given a stereotypical lack of understanding of technology, it's possible Ilya and Shirou are the only ones (maybe one more 'secret' one hanging out doing something?). An argument could be made that Ilya might even push for a concession of the system working with her magic as it exists more, so she can opt to improve what she has.

(edit: Okay, right, forgot the trigger was Sakura/Rin somehow making contact from outside with Ilya. Not sure why they pick her instead of Shirou, but okay. Does he somehow listen in on their conversation or what? What does Kayaba know about Ilya going into his conversation with her? That's going to shape how he approaches it and what concessions she can get.)

daniel_gudman said:
Nice. Bosses and floors having a theme is already canon (floors 3-9 in SAO is Elves), so it's a good riff on that. You can then keep playing on that later on. For example, since Kayaba wants to introduce them to various real world threats, Floor 20-25 might start with the Dead, Dead Apostles, culminating in the Floor 25 difficulty spike boss being a Dead Apostle Ancestor. Similarly for the Church, Clock Tower, Atlas, etc and various other power bloc as either periodically showing up as floor blocks as 'filler' or getting their own 5 floor set.

daniel_gudman said:
Unique Skills? No, Unique Spells!

...In short, Kayaba is moderating the crowd-sourced development of magic, rather than simply delivering it as a complete package to the user-base.
Oh, that's really clever, I like that.

Actually, what this brings up...with all the data Kayaba has access to, can he recreate other people's mysteries in the Real World? Or actually, just leverage it all in general to improve his own understanding, which lets him then keep patching the game and giving tidbits to the players, causing a virtuous cycle?

daniel_gudman said:
Shirou and Tracing

Well, from the start, Shirou's spell of Tracing IRL is too different from normal Projection, so in SAO, if he tries to do it with [Projection], then he'll automatically fail when his method diverges too much from the [Spell Assist]. Well, from the beginning, Fate!Shirou is someone who hasn't realized (yet) that Rin's assessment of "Noble Phantasm Projection is a magic beyond your limits" was flat-out wrong.
As said, I would say be careful how you handle this. I can see it being very frustrating for either Ilya or Shirou to have the system not let them do things they already can do.

I'm unsure as to how much Shirou can gain from trying to learn magic normally just like everyone else. He's limited due to his Element and unable to get things going that way, so...? How well does the system recognize a person's real Element and correlate it to what it has available?

Similarly, how well does the system handle all the various high end exception-based/rule-breaking/absolute stuff in the Nasuverse? Stuff like "this attack always hits" and so on?
 

Avider

Well-Known Member
#85
Eh...on one hand.

Eh...on the other.

Shirou learning to be a more diverse magus...well sure. I never did like CM3 anyways, just ignore Avalon and his Origin business. Or rather, not ignore it but not think of it as impossible. Just a 0.5 modifier on his learning ability.

Shirou failing his Projection. Well actually I can see this happen, since Shirou's Projection is not the same, so if he tries to do it his way, I wouldn't be surprised if the game could only do it the normal way. That is, make a shell that's empty. Could also be a reason why Shirou's focused more on the UBW aspect of Projection (the knowledge/experience/skills/history/etc. portion) rather than the projections themselves, since he can't get the system to make actual NPs (at least initially in the beginning mebe).

It really depends on how you write it out anyways. Using the knowledge within the weapons to empower Shirou's fine and all, that's essentially what Sparks Liner High and Nine Bullet Revolver is all about, if in a more weapons focus kinda way, just gotta keep in mind that if you're going with Fate Shirou, and if you're going with Caliburn, that the last time Shirou tried to do that was in the forest against Berserker and what basically happened was he got dragged around like a puppet and almost had his arm torn off. Like what other people have said before, usually when people write Shirou in a story, they tend to either time-skip him to a point where he got more experienced and is more Archer like, that they tend to ignore the fact that Fate Shirou really sucks. After all, Fate Shirou didn't win his fight with Kotomine with a NP, he just punched the dude with a dagger (Avalon's more beating AM).

Being able to use any special personal abilities of heroes are iffy (things like Prana Burst for example, and that's not even taking into account prana supply issue and whatnot), but it can work mebe eventually (probably not, but roll with it with good judgement on what can and cannot be used, e.g. Zelretch and the Second).


Huh... So in other words... Kayaba is trying to prove that the World Egg Theory supported by the Magus Association...is wrong.
???
 

Deathwings

Well-Known Member
#86
This fic is seriously going places. :D

So, one thing that struck me was that some peoples briefly talked about [Dual Blade] and who between Shirou and Kirito should get it. Which strike as kind of stupid, really, because this is Fate!Shirou and Fate!Shirou has no real predisposition to wielding two sword at once.

Fate!Shirou was trained by Arturia to wield a single two handed blade, he didn't "inherit" anything from Archer on that Route.

If anything, this could be an occasion to break away from the usual mold by getting him a shield and making him take up the title of "The Paladin" since Kabaya will much too busy constantly upgrading SAO with his expending understanding of magecraft to play as Heatcliff.

An idea about Diabel being rescued by Shirou : there's is only one lvl1 [Slime] on the entirety of the first floor and Diabel was the unlucky bastard that decided to attack it, realizing too late that being a mass of sentient water, the damn thing is completely immune to physical attack.

Then Shirou and Ilya show up and Shirou one shot the [Slime] seeing as he constantly Reinforce his weapon since it boos its stats and durability. Shirou doesn't make the connection, he's dense that way after all, but Ilya immediately does and Diabel, while very thankful and kind of still in shock from the near death experience, become suspicious.

Later on the number of [Slime] per floor keep increasing until the 25th Floor which can be better described as "Slime City" and whose Boss is [The Slime King], therefore forcing the players to develop offensive magecraft if they want to keep advancing.
 

Ryune

Well-Known Member
#87
Hmmm, I would be careful about limiting what can be done with reinforcement. Or at least what can be done in the area of self enhancement. That is of course only if you plan to have power progression in a similar way as in canon SAO. Remember that things were stupidly fast, strong and durable even in the low-med game. Maybe formal craft body enhancements? Rune covered clothing ala Bazzette or enchanted weapons/shields that give STR/AGI+?

On Shirou taking on the skills of heroes... I am ambivalent about it. I never quite liked tracing as a power in and of itself. It was poorly defined at best and becomes an "I win" button with it's absolutely broken versatility if he ever encounters Gil. On the other hand there has to be a price to be payed for blatantly stealing other Hero's skills. You could have them damage his body like with prana burst putting too much strain on his body. Or reproducing Berserker's strength means weapons only get a single strike before breaking unless they are super durable.

EDIT: Also, something that just pinged my from the little snippet, Shirou should be mostly ignorant of computers. Having him call UBW a database is fairly OOC for him. Maybe have him call it a library or repository?
 

Avider

Well-Known Member
#88
So, one thing that struck me was that some peoples briefly talked about [Dual Blade] and who between Shirou and Kirito should get it. Which strike as kind of stupid, really, because this is Fate!Shirou and Fate!Shirou has no real predisposition to wielding two sword at once.

Fate!Shirou was trained by Arturia to wield a single two handed blade, he didn't "inherit" anything from Archer on that Route.
If by trained by Arturia you mean got hit a couple of times in the dojo, sure. D:

And he does have experience with using two swords, and he does have a weird freaky thing with Archer, just not to the same extent as in UBW and HF. It's Kanshou and Bakuya. (I seriously want to read a fic one day where the real power of those two swords are used...)
 

Spectrum

Well-Known Member
#89
Deathwings said:
So, one thing that struck me was that some peoples briefly talked about [Dual Blade] and who between Shirou and Kirito should get it. Which strike as kind of stupid, really, because this is Fate!Shirou and Fate!Shirou has no real predisposition to wielding two sword at once.
Missing the point. Dual Blades canonically goes to the person with the fastest reflexes, hence why there's an argument to be made that Shirou is a candidate for it. It's moot, at any rate.

---

daniel, just thought of something, but the whole business about people not really dying and taking over monsters needs to be handled very carefully or you're going to end up with a vicious cycle. All those people are going to be using monsters and their own magecraft better than normal AI, which means they're going to be killing more players than canon...who then go on to control more monsters...and I think you see the problem? Assuming things turned out roughly the same, there's a couple big pushes, during the first month for the first 2k casualties...those guys might not have been spectacular or might have been suicides, but they're still going to be aggressive mobs who are going to kill more and start that snowball. And then around floor 25, losing all those clearers in that difficulty spike boss fight...those guys may contribute to more clearer deaths or they might be totally invincible to the mid-level guys and cut the flow of reinforcements.

A potential suggestion? Aincrad now has shards. Die once, turn into a monster on the first shard. Die as a monster, get punted into a second brand new shard. Die again, monster on the second shard, and so on. Or, hell, cut the turning into a monster bit and just punt them straight into new shards. Give them the fear that they then need to clear the game on their own just with the people who died (even if they'll get let out once the main shard clears the game) to have them keep progressing. Also keeps up the illusion for the people on the first shard that dying = dead.
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#90
Spectrum said:
A potential suggestion? Aincrad now has shards. Die once, turn into a monster on the first shard. Die as a monster, get punted into a second brand new shard. Die again, monster on the second shard, and so on. Or, hell, cut the turning into a monster bit and just punt them straight into new shards. Give them the fear that they then need to clear the game on their own just with the people who died (even if they'll get let out once the main shard clears the game) to have them keep progressing. Also keeps up the illusion for the people on the first shard that dying = dead.
I second the suggestion. As an alternative, the relatively less impressive ones animate monsters, while the others go to one or more shards.
 

elof

Well-Known Member
#91
On a lighter note seems you all forgot that cooking is also a skill in SAO, and that it is one of the things Shiro does best. Who do you think will be the one to first create real life dishes Shirou or Asuna? Also why can I see Shirou questing seriously for legendary cooking ingredients and having 99 ragout rabbit meat. :)
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#92
In the VN, Shirou said something like "Ayako is good at mass production, but I'm good at precision". I've been operating under the assumption that the massive simplifications of the [Cooking] skill sucked all the fun out of cooking, from Shirou's perspective. Compared to real-world cooking, cooking in SAO is too boring, that's Shirou's position on the matter. Well, if you disagree, I'd consider it.
 

Ryune

Well-Known Member
#93
hmmm, well it may have been simplified but even if it was SAO had a bunch of food that simply doesn't exist in the real world. I would think that Shirou would enjoy finding new and interesting combinations. Sure, the act of cooking may have gotten a lot of the fun sucked out of it but that doesn't mean that there isn't fun to be had with the skill. Providing good food for his friends and family would be enough of a draw for him I would think. Good food was one of the few things that Kirito really valued in game after all.
 

Muramasa

Well-Known Member
#94
daniel_gudman said:
In the VN, Shirou said something like "Ayako is good at mass production, but I'm good at precision". I've been operating under the assumption that the massive simplifications of the [Cooking] skill sucked all the fun out of cooking, from Shirou's perspective. Compared to real-world cooking, cooking in SAO is too boring, that's Shirou's position on the matter. Well, if you disagree, I'd consider it.
Well, normal SAO food tastes like **** without a player actively cooking the meal. Ilya will not be pleased. So there's that. :rolleyes:
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#95
So after the last bit was posted Avider pointed out Kayaba's offer wasn't all that impressive and Muramasa agreed. This was actually a good thing from my perspective.

Because, like Avider pointed out, what Kayaba is doing ("reaching into people's souls and goofing around with their circuits") is actually pretty close to the Third Magic that the Einzbern are all about.

I want to talk about that. Let's talk about that. I've got some ideas but nothing concrete yet.

What was the Third Magic anyway? How does that apply to Ilya's situation here, and what Kayaba could do (about Ilya, and in general)?

Please let me know what you think!!
 

Ryune

Well-Known Member
#96
The third magic is the manipulation of the soul beyond the general dickery that mages can get up to. Most mages experiment or tamper with a soul through the medium of a person's circuits or the rather inelegant method of poking it with a straw and sucking it's innards out to examine them. In comparison the third magic is actual surgery on the soul. It is modifying the soul in such a way that the soul does not degrade and can even repair damage to it. At the height of it is the skill of crystallizing the soul. Making the soul into something that does not degrade with time. The Einzberns used the third to power their secondary craft of wishcraft. Essentially it was throwing magic at a problem and somehow resolving whatever issue you had.

If you actually go with the earlier idea of having the SAO simulation actually modify the bodies and souls of the players on their exit then it would be almost the exact opposite of wishcraft in that he would be using an incomprehensible amount of detail to make up for alack of power.
 

Avider

Well-Known Member
#97
Close in the sense that it's part of the same domain/it deals with the soul. Not close in the sense that...it doesn't really do what the Third does (obvious is obvious, else it would be the Third.)

Anyways, what's the Third?

Materialization of the Soul.

What does that mean?

Beats me.

Rather than a concrete definition, all we really have are examples. Well, there is a kind of definition for it that may be relevant:

The Third Magic
Materialization of the soul, in other words, the magic that realizes true immortality. When accomplished, the practitioner will acquire an unlimited source of magical energy due to the soul becoming analogous to a perpetual motion machine. This is the Magic of the Einzbern lineage, and the Holy Grail War was established to acquire this Magic.
Anyways, what I was thinking was, given Kayaba's own branch of research, you could have him have some kind of insight (the kind that the Einzbern doesn't have because of tunnel vision and whatnot) into the Holy Grail of the Einzbern (heh, punny...). That is, his offer could be something that no true Einzbern would reject.

A way to recover the Third. Which has the added bonus of turning Ilya into an immortal infinite prana battery, so I guess that solves the whole gonna die soon issue. (Well, regardless of whether she'll actually get it or not, whether what he has is actually useful or not, I'd say it's a pretty tempting offer.)




By the way, this may or may not be of use to you, but the Atlas Institute is an organization that contain geniuses who work on the transmutation of concepts despite their lack of Circuits (or low amount/quality). They're basically a bunch of alchemists who, for some strange reason, likes to speak in computing jargon. Examples include predicting the future by calculating the probability of an action or event using currently known factors.

Or apparently making a giant mecha calculator powered by the lifeblood of magi transmuted into Philosopher's Stones. They're weird.
 

Spectrum

Well-Known Member
#98
Something could be said for Ilya and Rin maybe collectively having had the knowledge (or almost) to fix her problem, but perhaps it was an issue of resources and favors. Homonculi ain't cheap, the protags are dirt poor, and none of 'em have a patron willing to do anything about the issue for what they have to offer. (They don't know Touko in this verse, Waver already helped them covering various stuff out, Rin is too proud to ask Zelretch, etc) It could actually be as simple as saying Kayaba can throw money at the problem...?
 

Muramasa

Well-Known Member
#99
Ilya isn't poor. But does she have enough resources to build a new homunculi from scratch? :huh.:
 

Spectrum

Well-Known Member
Muramasa said:
Ilya isn't poor. But does she have enough resources to build a new homunculi from scratch? :huh.:
Ilya separated from the resources of the Einzbern and living on Shirou's largess?
 
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