It's actually worse though isn't it? Because whereas before Shirou could rip himself up and power through it with a body of swords and pretending pain doesn't exist, now if he overdoes it too much the system could arbitrarily take more health as compensation than he has and he dies (sort of), even if in real life he could have survived.
Nasuverse FSN + SAO
- Thread starter daniel_gudman
- Start date
It's directly stated as reinforcement of the body through infusion and expulsion actually, and yes reinforcement is just the process of infusing magical energy into something to make it stronger. It sounds even more simple than Prana Burst, but that doesn't mean it's super easy or safe.
The vector thing is from a scene in HA that I'm going to have to track down, though it does mention that in the wiki (as unreliable as it is), so I'm not sure what you're talking about there.
The point is if someone is going to be using Prana Burst as a learned skill rather than an innate one (especially over such a short time), they should be at least be way more talented than Shirou in reinforcement and have ridiculous amounts of power to use it in combat constantly.
The vector thing is from a scene in HA that I'm going to have to track down, though it does mention that in the wiki (as unreliable as it is), so I'm not sure what you're talking about there.
The point is if someone is going to be using Prana Burst as a learned skill rather than an innate one (especially over such a short time), they should be at least be way more talented than Shirou in reinforcement and have ridiculous amounts of power to use it in combat constantly.
http://tatari.byethost33.com/fuyuki/parameters.htm
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Parameters_and_Skills
I saw no mention about vectors.
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Parameters_and_Skills
I saw no mention about vectors.
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Saber_(Fate/stay_night)
Your google-fu is terrible. As usual for the wiki a bunch of different sources jumbled together, but the first part is basically just verbatim from what I'm pretty damn sure was HA, which I'm now going to have to waste time searching for. Hopefully it's the bridge scene, because that's easy.
Regardless of any of that stuff (which might just be a follow on of an iffy translation that just means "when it's expelled it needs to be expelled in a direction"), the point that I'm trying to hammer in is that this idea that "Oh it's super simple all it needs is power and anyone can do it!" is baseless and stupid. It's not just circuits releasing lots of magical energy, it's Reinforcement++.
Your google-fu is terrible. As usual for the wiki a bunch of different sources jumbled together, but the first part is basically just verbatim from what I'm pretty damn sure was HA, which I'm now going to have to waste time searching for. Hopefully it's the bridge scene, because that's easy.
Regardless of any of that stuff (which might just be a follow on of an iffy translation that just means "when it's expelled it needs to be expelled in a direction"), the point that I'm trying to hammer in is that this idea that "Oh it's super simple all it needs is power and anyone can do it!" is baseless and stupid. It's not just circuits releasing lots of magical energy, it's Reinforcement++.
Ah, thanks for that. That was a good deal more informative.
Got a couple things from that.
1. Shirou probably needs a new weapon (or atleast needs immediate repairs). The only reason I can think of as to why it's not already destroyed was that his imitation prana burst, was too low-yield (thus huge damage to durability).
2. Exceptional control of your prana is needed. Since prana burst seems to be the workaround to the limitations with reinforcement (your expelling the extra prana since your weapon and body are already at your limit).
Not enough power and it's just really shitty reinforcement. Too much and you destroy your weapon (and body).
3. The effectiveness of Prana Burst is in proportion to the prana reserves of the user. (The more you have, the more you can burst I guess?)
My next question would be 'Is reinforcement of the body completely necessary to initiate a prana burst?'. I mean, if your just funneling a burst through your weapon, that too should be possible too right?
Got a couple things from that.
1. Shirou probably needs a new weapon (or atleast needs immediate repairs). The only reason I can think of as to why it's not already destroyed was that his imitation prana burst, was too low-yield (thus huge damage to durability).
2. Exceptional control of your prana is needed. Since prana burst seems to be the workaround to the limitations with reinforcement (your expelling the extra prana since your weapon and body are already at your limit).
Not enough power and it's just really shitty reinforcement. Too much and you destroy your weapon (and body).
3. The effectiveness of Prana Burst is in proportion to the prana reserves of the user. (The more you have, the more you can burst I guess?)
My next question would be 'Is reinforcement of the body completely necessary to initiate a prana burst?'. I mean, if your just funneling a burst through your weapon, that too should be possible too right?
If you are holding on to a supersonic sword without reinforcing at least your arms, that's probably going to hurt. If you are using Prana Burst on a Linear skill without reinforcing yourself, which involves going forwards, you are basically attaching yourself to a fast moving object without providing resistances to running into things or having your arms pulled out of your body or such events.
The best, and only way I can think of off hand, way to use Prana Burst without reinforcing yourself is to use it to throw a weapon with.. and even then, it'd probably work better if you were reinforcing yourself to be a better weapon thrower.
The best, and only way I can think of off hand, way to use Prana Burst without reinforcing yourself is to use it to throw a weapon with.. and even then, it'd probably work better if you were reinforcing yourself to be a better weapon thrower.
悪é”(ã‚ãã¾, akuma) - demon, devil, fiend, Satan, evil spirit(from WWWJDIC)
As an aside, æ‚ªé” are actually a thing in the Nasuverse. Specifically, it's the Japanese name for "demons".
Regarding the Prana Burst discussion - given its description, it sounds like it should be prana intensive (something that Shirou is notable for being weak in), but given the figures on this page, it doesn't seem to be the case. I can't find the source for those numbers, though. I suppose it could be chalked up to Saber's super-circuits.
Also, in the chapter, it seems a little odd that Kirito doesn't make mention of the damage Shirou received. It doesn't really fit into the scene, but it seems like something he would notice.
As an aside, æ‚ªé” are actually a thing in the Nasuverse. Specifically, it's the Japanese name for "demons".
Regarding the Prana Burst discussion - given its description, it sounds like it should be prana intensive (something that Shirou is notable for being weak in), but given the figures on this page, it doesn't seem to be the case. I can't find the source for those numbers, though. I suppose it could be chalked up to Saber's super-circuits.
Also, in the chapter, it seems a little odd that Kirito doesn't make mention of the damage Shirou received. It doesn't really fit into the scene, but it seems like something he would notice.
Actually I don't think we get any real indication of where Shirou stands in terms of Od. He traces a ton of swords over a fairly short period in UBW way before he contracts with Rin, and all the screwing himself up is by putting too much power through one or two circuits, not running out.
He's not gonna be Rin level, but he's at least above average for a magus.
He's not gonna be Rin level, but he's at least above average for a magus.
If the numbers on the page I linked are accurate, his od reserves are about average. However if, as chapter 3.2 suggests, he can't use mana, he has significantly less prana available to him compared to an average magus. Although, I'm can't find any sources that state he is completely unable to use mana - it might just be that he never learned.
Also, his circuits are very low quality, limiting his maximum output. I don't believe he can use more than one or two at the moment either.
Still, as noted, Projection and particularly Reinforcement are very cheap for him. Prana Burst could be justified as a more difficult and/or lost version of Reinforcement.
As an aside, during Fate he turns a tree branch into a replica of Archer's bow. It's referred to as Reinforcement (well, mirror moon translates it as 'strengthening') but it seems more like Alteration.
Also, his circuits are very low quality, limiting his maximum output. I don't believe he can use more than one or two at the moment either.
Still, as noted, Projection and particularly Reinforcement are very cheap for him. Prana Burst could be justified as a more difficult and/or lost version of Reinforcement.
As an aside, during Fate he turns a tree branch into a replica of Archer's bow. It's referred to as Reinforcement (well, mirror moon translates it as 'strengthening') but it seems more like Alteration.
Thing is that number seems to be entirely guesswork. There's a reason it's a variable value, because it's never stated anywhere that I can tell. It's taken from arai's stuff from ages ago, which he probably got under a combination of the idea that he's average to above average as a magus combined with tracing needing 5 units. The problem is that he never actually runs out of power in F/SN, it's always overdoing it with his circuits. So there's no confirmation of that upper limit.
Also his circuits aren't very low quality. He can handle the same amount per circuit as Rin but he fucks himself to do so whereas she doesn't seem to have any issue (but still can't go any higher than 10), but the thing is this could literally just be lack of experience with using circuits at all so his body isn't as used to it as Rin, we have no idea. Point is, if circuits that can handle 10 units of prana maximum are "very low quality" then Rin's are like low to average.
Also his circuits aren't very low quality. He can handle the same amount per circuit as Rin but he fucks himself to do so whereas she doesn't seem to have any issue (but still can't go any higher than 10), but the thing is this could literally just be lack of experience with using circuits at all so his body isn't as used to it as Rin, we have no idea. Point is, if circuits that can handle 10 units of prana maximum are "very low quality" then Rin's are like low to average.
He was reinforcing the [Concept of Bow] within the wood, perhaps? I do agree that it seems more like Alteration, though it could be both.
Where does it say Rin's circuits can only do 10 units per circuit? If these two pages are accurate, it should be a bit higher than ten per circuit (depending on what exactly 'subs that are 30 each' means; I presume it refers to her Crest, but does that mean that she has multiple 30-circuit subsections in her crest, or that each circuit on the Crest can supply/handle 30 units of Prana, or something else?). Exact numbers in Nasuverse may be problematic, anyway.
Where does it say Rin's circuits can only do 10 units per circuit? If these two pages are accurate, it should be a bit higher than ten per circuit (depending on what exactly 'subs that are 30 each' means; I presume it refers to her Crest, but does that mean that she has multiple 30-circuit subsections in her crest, or that each circuit on the Crest can supply/handle 30 units of Prana, or something else?). Exact numbers in Nasuverse may be problematic, anyway.
Rin can handle 10 units per circuit comfortably. She can probably go over that amount, but won't because it's stupid and dangerous.
Shirou overloads his circuits at 10 and damages them. Weather it's due to poor control or bad circuits in general isn't specified. (In my head canon, it's a mix of both)
Also about Shirou's active circuits: daniel_gudman hasn't stated how many circuits Shirou can use at the moment. By the end of Fate route, I know he didn't use more than three at a time. Saber pretty much dealt with everything so there really wasn't a need, I guess?
On the other hand, Shirou's 'Trigger: On' looked at least a little prana intensive...
Actually that's a good question. Just how many circuits are Shirou and the other players using at the moment?
Shirou overloads his circuits at 10 and damages them. Weather it's due to poor control or bad circuits in general isn't specified. (In my head canon, it's a mix of both)
Also about Shirou's active circuits: daniel_gudman hasn't stated how many circuits Shirou can use at the moment. By the end of Fate route, I know he didn't use more than three at a time. Saber pretty much dealt with everything so there really wasn't a need, I guess?
On the other hand, Shirou's 'Trigger: On' looked at least a little prana intensive...
Actually that's a good question. Just how many circuits are Shirou and the other players using at the moment?
'Trigger: On' is just him using a skill recorded in UBW, right? I would assume the prana cost just from performing the skill, it doesn't seem like he'd need prana to search UBW.
I had another look, and it seems Amodelsino might be right.
We know Rin's maximum output is 1000 from the scene Gem Sword Zelretch.
According to TM wiki and this site, she has 40 circuits naturally, and has "subs that are 30 each". In Japanese, that's 「é”術回路ã¯ãƒ¡ã‚¤ãƒ³ãŒ40ã§ã‚µãƒ–ãŒãã‚Œãžã‚Œ30。ã€(more or less a direct translation). Incidentally, that site doesn't have anything that I could find regarding the quality of Shirou's Circuits (or lack thereof).
In that case, we can assume she has either 70 or 100 Circuits. Therefore, the output per Circuit is ~14.3 or 10 units respectively, if the output is uniform across all Circuits.
As an aside, the muscles in her left arm - the same arm her Crest is on, by the way - is damaged every time she uses the Jeweled Sword. The scene doesn't specify why. Also that Rin and Sakura have equal prana outputs, despite Rin having a Crest (assuming the Crest Worm in Sakura doesn't help her).
I had another look, and it seems Amodelsino might be right.
We know Rin's maximum output is 1000 from the scene Gem Sword Zelretch.
According to TM wiki and this site, she has 40 circuits naturally, and has "subs that are 30 each". In Japanese, that's 「é”術回路ã¯ãƒ¡ã‚¤ãƒ³ãŒ40ã§ã‚µãƒ–ãŒãã‚Œãžã‚Œ30。ã€(more or less a direct translation). Incidentally, that site doesn't have anything that I could find regarding the quality of Shirou's Circuits (or lack thereof).
In that case, we can assume she has either 70 or 100 Circuits. Therefore, the output per Circuit is ~14.3 or 10 units respectively, if the output is uniform across all Circuits.
As an aside, the muscles in her left arm - the same arm her Crest is on, by the way - is damaged every time she uses the Jeweled Sword. The scene doesn't specify why. Also that Rin and Sakura have equal prana outputs, despite Rin having a Crest (assuming the Crest Worm in Sakura doesn't help her).
It was unclear that the gesture was aimed specifically at Shirou. It seemed like he was asking anyone to help him up, but Shirou acted first because he didn't hesitate to help.
Wait, I was mistaken. I misread the passage. "More superior" is the correct phrasing when there's a phrase like "four times" attached. My eyes skipped over that for some reason.
Rather, "four times superior" would be odd. "Four times better" would be fine. I'm just not used to seeing "more superior" in a context where it fits.
For example, there's never a context in which "more happier" works.
I haven't seen or read everything about SAO (and I'm probably never going to), but your fic has been pretty newcomer-friendly so far. At least from the SAO side of things.
(Being newcomer-friendly on the FSN side of things is probably much, much harder. Such a dense and complicated setting.)
The meaning of "Christian devil" is a johny-come-lately connotation, while Satan has been the primary meaning behind the English word "devil" for ages.
The point is that Diabel bears more resemblence to Satan than to the wide variety of creatures called "akuma".
Well, it's not as mysterious when one considers that the game he found himself in was not the game he intended to play. Which you illustrate very well. I certainly love the explanation you came up with.
Better than any BGM, yes. Didn't that also imply that there wasn't any BGM playing at that time and place?
I didn't see her as flirting, but rather unconsciously expressing the beginings of fondness. Though "high on life" certainly clarifies the picture. (And possibly helps the begining of fondness.)
Yeah. It was without a doubt the best thing Kirito could think to do, but it also showcases that he really didn't have the understanding to handle the situation well. That ability died along with Diabel.
Kirito could have possibly pointed out that the katana skills he recognized from the 9th Level obviously hadn't been in the 1st level of the beta, otherwise it would have been included in the information everyone got. Kirito couldn't have known that the boss was different, just as he couldn't have known that Diabel was going to charge the boss alone at precisely the time when everyone knew it was going to become the most dangerous. Furthermore, Diabel himself had assigned Kirito to a marginal position that placed him too far away to react in time.
With a completely different delivery than "laughing, half-mad scorn", this might have worked to absolve him. Then a more talented fellow could take the fear and anger and resentment of the crowd and direct towards the true villain: Kayaba, who not only trapped them in the death game, but also changed the game itself so that even beta players needed to watch out.
Then a talented fellow could tie that right into a point about the beta testers being in the same boat as everyone else.
But again, that talented fellow was Diabel, who was dead.
No, I definitely didn't think he was wrong either. Even when Muramasa's words led me to doubt, and even though I doubt the integrity of Diabel's motives, I can see no fault in his actions.
No one else is stepping up to be the leader everyone needs. The people who most threaten to steal the glory the leader needs (by accident) are both unsuitable for the position AND unwilling to take it.
Diabel is both willing and competent. He is absolutely the leader everyone needs right now, and he took the best course of action for becoming that leader.
And I admire the ruthless, competent pragmatism with which he pursues that role.
Wait, I was mistaken. I misread the passage. "More superior" is the correct phrasing when there's a phrase like "four times" attached. My eyes skipped over that for some reason.
Rather, "four times superior" would be odd. "Four times better" would be fine. I'm just not used to seeing "more superior" in a context where it fits.
For example, there's never a context in which "more happier" works.
I haven't seen or read everything about SAO (and I'm probably never going to), but your fic has been pretty newcomer-friendly so far. At least from the SAO side of things.
(Being newcomer-friendly on the FSN side of things is probably much, much harder. Such a dense and complicated setting.)
The meaning of "Christian devil" is a johny-come-lately connotation, while Satan has been the primary meaning behind the English word "devil" for ages.
The point is that Diabel bears more resemblence to Satan than to the wide variety of creatures called "akuma".
Well, it's not as mysterious when one considers that the game he found himself in was not the game he intended to play. Which you illustrate very well. I certainly love the explanation you came up with.
Better than any BGM, yes. Didn't that also imply that there wasn't any BGM playing at that time and place?
I didn't see her as flirting, but rather unconsciously expressing the beginings of fondness. Though "high on life" certainly clarifies the picture. (And possibly helps the begining of fondness.)
Yeah. It was without a doubt the best thing Kirito could think to do, but it also showcases that he really didn't have the understanding to handle the situation well. That ability died along with Diabel.
Kirito could have possibly pointed out that the katana skills he recognized from the 9th Level obviously hadn't been in the 1st level of the beta, otherwise it would have been included in the information everyone got. Kirito couldn't have known that the boss was different, just as he couldn't have known that Diabel was going to charge the boss alone at precisely the time when everyone knew it was going to become the most dangerous. Furthermore, Diabel himself had assigned Kirito to a marginal position that placed him too far away to react in time.
With a completely different delivery than "laughing, half-mad scorn", this might have worked to absolve him. Then a more talented fellow could take the fear and anger and resentment of the crowd and direct towards the true villain: Kayaba, who not only trapped them in the death game, but also changed the game itself so that even beta players needed to watch out.
Then a talented fellow could tie that right into a point about the beta testers being in the same boat as everyone else.
But again, that talented fellow was Diabel, who was dead.
No, I definitely didn't think he was wrong either. Even when Muramasa's words led me to doubt, and even though I doubt the integrity of Diabel's motives, I can see no fault in his actions.
No one else is stepping up to be the leader everyone needs. The people who most threaten to steal the glory the leader needs (by accident) are both unsuitable for the position AND unwilling to take it.
Diabel is both willing and competent. He is absolutely the leader everyone needs right now, and he took the best course of action for becoming that leader.
And I admire the ruthless, competent pragmatism with which he pursues that role.
A word on Reinforcement versus Prana Burst:
Reinforcement is a lasting buff. Prana Burst is an over-and-done, momentary buff.
Prana Burst may allow you to exceed your limits (though you need to be tough enough to pay the price), but it's also more expensive than Reinforcement because you need to use it every single time. On the other hand, it can also be invoked instantly, whereas Reinforcing yourself probably takes at least a second.
A second word on Prana Burst: It's shit for anything besides imparting or resisting kinetic energy. Sure, you can use it to run faster, hit harder, or repel attacks, but it can't be used to make your eyes work better, or reinforce your brain or immune system.
There's also a reason why Saber is the only character in the series to feature Prana Burst; because she's the human incarnation of a dragon. Or she carries the karma of a dragon. Somehow she's part dragon, and Nasu never explains how or why.
Dragons in the Nasuverse are living prana reactors. They breath in mana and naturally convert it into life-force. Which also helps them breath in mana and exhale deadly pure-prana gouts of death.
Saber's huge energy reserves and ease with throwing ungodly amounts of life-force into her actions and weapons is precisely because she's dragon-ish.
It might be possible for someone to learn Prana Burst, but never at Saber's level. And it probably requires skill at Moving-And-Breathing.
In fact, the Martial Arts sidequest on the Second Floor probably got turned into "Refine your Gather Mana skill, and learn how to punch a rock in two using Prana Burst."
It's not about doing it barehanded, but being forced to achieve that kind of damage without the aid of a weapon. Which forces you to develop Prana Burst, which requires the Moving-And-Breathing advancement on Gather Mana, which replaces Meditation.
Reinforcement is a lasting buff. Prana Burst is an over-and-done, momentary buff.
Prana Burst may allow you to exceed your limits (though you need to be tough enough to pay the price), but it's also more expensive than Reinforcement because you need to use it every single time. On the other hand, it can also be invoked instantly, whereas Reinforcing yourself probably takes at least a second.
A second word on Prana Burst: It's shit for anything besides imparting or resisting kinetic energy. Sure, you can use it to run faster, hit harder, or repel attacks, but it can't be used to make your eyes work better, or reinforce your brain or immune system.
There's also a reason why Saber is the only character in the series to feature Prana Burst; because she's the human incarnation of a dragon. Or she carries the karma of a dragon. Somehow she's part dragon, and Nasu never explains how or why.
Dragons in the Nasuverse are living prana reactors. They breath in mana and naturally convert it into life-force. Which also helps them breath in mana and exhale deadly pure-prana gouts of death.
Saber's huge energy reserves and ease with throwing ungodly amounts of life-force into her actions and weapons is precisely because she's dragon-ish.
It might be possible for someone to learn Prana Burst, but never at Saber's level. And it probably requires skill at Moving-And-Breathing.
In fact, the Martial Arts sidequest on the Second Floor probably got turned into "Refine your Gather Mana skill, and learn how to punch a rock in two using Prana Burst."
It's not about doing it barehanded, but being forced to achieve that kind of damage without the aid of a weapon. Which forces you to develop Prana Burst, which requires the Moving-And-Breathing advancement on Gather Mana, which replaces Meditation.
Let's imagine, for a moment, that Crest does not give you ability to channel more prana - it's there to give quick access to spells of your ancestors, after all, no more - no less.
(The backlash to her left arm was likely because of 'conflict' at the point of contract between her circuits and crest).
Calculations begin to make a lot more sense right away. Because now we can assume that 'high quality circuits' can handle 25 units of prana each - for total of 1000.
This also shows why quality of Shirou's is seen as pathetic - if average is somewhere around 15, a circuit that can't channel even 10 seems pretty bad in comparison.
(The backlash to her left arm was likely because of 'conflict' at the point of contract between her circuits and crest).
Calculations begin to make a lot more sense right away. Because now we can assume that 'high quality circuits' can handle 25 units of prana each - for total of 1000.
This also shows why quality of Shirou's is seen as pathetic - if average is somewhere around 15, a circuit that can't channel even 10 seems pretty bad in comparison.
I would also add it the ability to direct the use of prana(that is why her arm under the Crest was overheating, she couldn't use the sword by herself) and the ability to be used as pseudo-circuits(sub-circuits maybe? Would explain the exact term used)so while they can't be used for instant effects they can act as circuits for everything else(magi are scientists after all, the focus should be in that direction). Plus it is most certainly less specific than simply spells, the knowledge they are based on along with quite a bit of the family's magecraft is probably there too.
Not to mention that Nasu does imply that in general circuit number = circuit quality.
Not to mention that Nasu does imply that in general circuit number = circuit quality.
Or maybe the Circuits that make up her Crest are of lower quality then her natural ones, so she had to really push them to manage to power the Prismatic Sword. It kind of make sense in retrospect. After all, Crest are made of the Circuits of many peoples all with different amount of quality on top of the procedure itself, which is suppose to be super dangerous and hard to perform.
So, I guess the Circuits of her Crest are of low to average quality whyle her natural ones are above average to good.
So, I guess the Circuits of her Crest are of low to average quality whyle her natural ones are above average to good.