Naruto How would you train Team 7?

[Draculthemad]

Screw the Rasengan.

Giving a guy that can form multiple expendable copies of himself a primary attack that requires:

A: He stand still to gather it until her perfects his chakra control
B: He do it himself instead of via clone

Is almost criminally stupid.
Crap, even just having his clones soak themselves in alcohol and kamikaze with a book of matches in hand is more effective than the rasengan.
(probably rather uncomfortable to remember a few hundred times, but still.)

All he needs is ONE decent area effect buff or force multiplier and he immediately becomes strong enough to survive in the near-term.
That gives you the time you need to break his other bad qualities down and build him back up.

Give him some kind of ranged attack that his clones can spam as well as he can, or some other way to leverage the duplication effect.

THEN you can fix his taijutsu, background education and tactics, etc.

As for Sakura, you start working on her conditioning and practical skills.

For Sasuke, you stuff him in a bag, tie it shut, and then throw it in the river and call it chakra training.
I kid, but seroiusly short of therapy-no-jutsu fixing his major character flaws, maybe give him anti-genjutsu and blind-fighting training.

Something he really needs and can see how useful it is even with his massive tunnel vision on Itachi.
Bonus points if you can get him to the point where he can no-sell some random sacrificial bandit/cannon fodder that attacks him from behind.

Easy validation for your teaching efforts in his eyes, and its just about the only thing he can actually learn at his level that MIGHT be useful against Itachi.
Maybe he will hang around the village long enough that he can start on the good stuff.

 

[Altered Nova]

Screw the Rasengan.

Giving a guy that can form multiple expendable copies of himself a primary attack that requires:

A: He stand still to gather it until her perfects his chakra control
B: He do it himself instead of via clone

Is almost criminally stupid.

Neither of those are true.

He does need clones to help him form the Rasengan, but he can make them while moving and the clones can be the ones that actually use them.

 

[Knyght]

To be fair, I don't think Pre-TS Naruto ever created a Rasengan whilst on the move. That may have been a genuine limitation he overcame since Sasuke had a similar issue with the Chidori, IIRC.

 

[Altered Nova]

Fair enough, but even if he can't do it while moving I don't see any reason why he couldn't summon 20 clones and have them break off into pairs and make 10 rasengans. He's never had clones clearly make rasengans without his own help in combat before but there doesn't seem to be any actual reason for not doing it, and I'm pretty sure the clones were making rasengans independently during the wind rasengan training.

 

[Knyght]

I believe the earliest example of that was against Kabuto before the reunion with Sasuke. Two clones on the cliff above Kabuto's head prepped a Rasengan and attacked whilst the real one was with the team.

 

[sinewyk]

I would put everything into their strength, so, Sakura would be basic stuff: if she has good control, Genjutsu, Medic, and some other thing that needs good control. I would make Sasuke copy ninjutsu/genjutsu and make him train at them.

And then, I would train Naruto into the ground until he bleeds, day after day after day (with some clones on the side to train his chakra control and wind affinity, but not "jutsu", just plain cutting power).

And then, he would be so fucking fast and strong and tough, run => cut, the end.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

you guys DO realize that, while being fucking monsters, Team 7 still would need YEARS to reach the level you want?
And they have to survive in first place?

Also, the point of the topic was "Not knowing shit about the future".
As far as one would know at the begin, Naruto would need years just to get enough chakra control for a perfect normal Bunshin, good luck planning to teach him anything more complex before then. Just an example

 

[Altered Nova]

Also, the point of the topic was "Not knowing shit about the future".
As far as one would know at the begin, Naruto would need years just to get enough chakra control for a perfect normal Bunshin, good luck planning to teach him anything more complex before then. Just an example

Yeah I never really understood how that works. The same kid that struggled with bunshin, roughly half a year later he learns Rasengan the pinnacle of shape transformation in less than a week, when it took the Fourth years to do it. He had to cheat with clones but still. And then there was his suspension of disbelief shatteringly fast absolute mastery of sage mode. Is Naruto a genius or an idiot when it comes to chakra control?

 

[Shirotsume]

I like to think of him having the capability to absolutely master his body's internal energies- however, he has a much steeper learning curve due to leaking Kyuubi chakra and never received any training in it in the first place.

Basically, the leaking chakra fucked up his control. But because the chakra was leaking, that offered him... let's say 'insight' into the nature of how different energies act, via compare and contrast. This lead to his eventual mastery of his own physical energy, spiritual energy, yokai, and nature energy... and possibly even eventually all of those at once?

 

[Ashaman]

Also, the point of the topic was "Not knowing shit about the future".
As far as one would know at the begin, Naruto would need years just to get enough chakra control for a perfect normal Bunshin, good luck planning to teach him anything more complex before then. Just an example

Yeah I never really understood how that works. The same kid that struggled with bunshin, roughly half a year later he learns Rasengan the pinnacle of shape transformation in less than a week, when it took the Fourth years to do it. He had to cheat with clones but still. And then there was his suspension of disbelief shatteringly fast absolute mastery of sage mode. Is Naruto a genius or an idiot when it comes to chakra control?

First of all - I'm pretty sure it took him a month or so to learn the Rasangan. It was just a week for the mastery of the third step.


Here's my take on it;

The problem rests on the teaching methods.

The leaf exercise, iirc, is the first exercise taught in chakra control.

And its perfect for learning to channel small amounts - but Naruto found himself over compensating and, even though he molded loads of chakra, he used too little.

Probably because the times he didn't use too little he used too much.

Think of it like a bucket; Naruto fills the bucket and practices filling a thimble. He gets the hang of that, only then to be asked to fill a glass instead, and he just can't cope because he's too used to only filling the thimble and trying to fill the glass instead only causes his chakra to come gushing out.

He developed a block, so to speak.

The first breakthrough is the clones, because its largely automatic. Create chakra, chakra splits fairly equally between clones, fuckton of clones.

Next comes Naruto learning, finally, to use/manipulate large amounts of chakra during tree climbing/water walking/rasengan training.

He's overcome that block - he can use small amounts and large amounts of chakra whenever he pleases.

After that there's no real problem - after all, the problem with Naruto's control isn't in his manipulation, its with his application and creation.

 

[Knyght]

Even if he struggled with bunshin, he mastered kage bunshin in less than half a day which I'd say is a better example of his ability. Then he spent that half-year using said jutsu repeatedly and mastering the chakra control exercises.

Besides, I believe it took a month to master the Rasengan. The week was just the final stage for his bet with Tsunade. And it should take much less time to master jutsu that's being taught than creating said jutsu. For the first stage he used a completely unorthodox method that bypassed the needed level of control, then he used some serious concentration for the second that even Jiraiya was impressed with and then to complete it he basically creates a clone to do half the work for him.

And the speed he learned Sage Mode wasn't "zomghe'sagenius", it was just that he picked it up faster than Jiraiya. He was mainly impressed by how good Naruto was at it overall. We don't know how it took Jiraiya or how long it usually takes but given that, and the fact that Fukasaku thought he'd be able to learn it in time to deal with Pein, I don't think the training is meant to take very long. You just have the fit the requirements for the chakra reserves and not die in the process.

 

[TC_Hazard]

That's a good point about Sage Mode.

Thinking about it, while hard it is probably not something that takes a long time to learn, because you either get the hang of it quickly enough or you end up turned into a statue.

 

[datakim]

That's a good point about Sage Mode.

Thinking about it, while hard it is probably not something that takes a long time to learn, because you either get the hang of it quickly enough or you end up turned into a statue.

Maybe, but the fact that Jiraiya never managed to reach total mastery does kinda speak against it. Especially since Jiraiya apparently disliked the toad apperance he took and had years and years to practise, suggesting that he just could not achieve the perfect balance Naruto did, no matter how hard he tried.

I suspect that Fukasaku probably thought that Naruto would reach a level somewhere similar to Jiraiya, where he would be partially toadish, but still gain a big boost. I doubt Fukasaku expected Naruto to reach total mastery the way he did (and especially not so quickly). Its also worth noting that Fukasaku probably expected Naruto to have support from Konoha, since he could hardly have expected that Nagato would be able to use Shinra Tensei to wipe the entire village from the map with a single blow. Fukasaku also expected to be able to merge with Naruto and give him unlimited NE. So basically, I doubt Fukasaku expected that Naruto would have to fight all 6 paths virtually alone, and he probably expected there to be more time before Nagato attacked.

As for how Naruto mastered SM so quickly, if we speculate, there are several potential explanations to explain how Naruto reached such mastery so easily.

One explanation might be his nature as a jinchuuriki. I mean using SM involves absorbing foreign energy to your system. Naruto basically did that everytime he used Kuramas chakra. Furthermore, we now know that Juubi is basically composed of natural energy, and Kurama was split from it. Even though the Sage obviously altered Kuramas chakra in some way so it was no longer based on NE, its not a big leap to assume that long term usage of Kuramas chakra may have somehow "attuned" Naruto into being good at using foreign energy types, and NE in particular.

Another possibility is that it might be somekind of Uzumaki thing. I mean Naruto is a descendant of the SAGE of the six paths, and the younger brother who inherited the body of the sage. Its possible that those who are descendants of the younger son of the sage have an inborn aptitude in mastering SM. Note that Hashirama, who is another descendant of the younger brother also uses some form of SM that looks perfected.

And ofcourse there is the fact that Narutos chakra levels are insane, which gives him slightly more leeway in balancing his energies compared to others (such as Jiraiya).

Now if we were to put those things together, then its not all that odd that Naruto would have achieved such perfect mastery of SM so quickly. Is especially telling that in recent chapters his SM ability has increased significantly. We have seen him enter SM virtually instantly for example, which is something Hashirama also seems capable off.

I kinda like the idea that maybe SM is something that comes naturally to the lineage of the Sages younger son. I mean the older brother got the super-eyes with absurdly insane hax abilities, while the younger brother basically was said to just have some enhanced bodily vitality, which sounds pretty pathetic compared to things like Kamui, Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi and so on. But if that vitality of the younger brother made it easy to learn SM, then it would explain how the younger brother was able to hold his own against his super-eyed older brother, and would also balance the scales a bit in that the younger brother also got a pretty hax ability in SM (even if he had to actually learn it first).

 

[Knyght]

Assuming it's possible to improve your balance once you achieve Sage Mode. It could be the case that whether you can be a perfect sage or not is an innate capability; either you've got it or you haven't. Like the potential to use senjutsu in the first place.

I'm not sure if it can be said one way or the other since no-one actually mentions if Jiraiya tried and failed to improve his Sage Mode. Just that he didn't get it perfect, which could mean he never got it perfect despite his efforts or he wasn't someone capable of it.

 

[datakim]

Assuming it's possible to improve your balance once you achieve Sage Mode. It could be the case that whether you can be a perfect sage or not is an innate capability; either you've got it or you haven't. Like the potential to use senjutsu in the first place.

I seem to recall there being a scene where Naruto was practising his SM, learning how to enter it faster and stay in it longer.

We also see clear improvement in his abilities as the story progresses. When he first fights the Paths, he needs shadow clones to meditate in advance and then transfer their NE to him. But during the arc where he is imprisoned in the island, he is shown to be able to go to SM basically instantly in order to escape the temple.

Now granted, that does not strictly speaking confirm that its possible for an imperfect sage like Jiraiya to become perfect like Naruto through practise, but it does atleast hint towards it by making it clear that it IS possible to improve ones skills in SM through training.

I would also argue that in theory atleast, everyone has the potential to enter SM and learn senjutsu. Its just that if your chakra reserves are very small, then you would have to be an absurd prodigy and basically achieve perfect balance between the energies with your first try, or you are stoned. Thats the impression I got atleast. The more chakra you have, the bigger the "imbalance" of energies you can withstand without turning to stone.

So for example, if someone with very small chakra levels would draw in too much NE, the NE overload would instantly overwhelm the person and the person would turn to stone in a single instant, before Fukasaku would have time to whack them with the anti-NE stick.

Naruto however has so much chakra, that if he were to draw in too much NE, his absurdly high internal energies would mean that the NE would take longer and he would slowly turn into a toad and then to stone, giving Fukasaku time to react and whack and save Naruto with the stick before it was too late. It would likely also means that its easier to achieve balance since there would be a bit more leeway for Naruto, compared to someone with less chakra.

The difference between balancing on the edge of a sharp blade or on a thick rope so to speak. Both are difficult, but one is slightly easier than the other. Thats the idea I have about how that whole thing works anyway.

Ofcourse if my pet theory about SM being easier for descendants of the younger brother is true, then Naruto had majorly unfair advantage over Jiraiya. I do kinda hope we will learn more about NE and SM yet, and especially what (if any) connection the Sot6P had with it. I would atleast presume that it will play some role, considering that Juubi is apparently composed entirely of NE, and can only even be sensed by Sages.

 

[Knyght]

I seem to recall there being a scene where Naruto was practising his SM, learning how to enter it faster and stay in it longer.

Since Naruto had perfect balance from the beginning, I really doubt his improvements are related to the balance of energies in his bodies but rather how quickly he can gather natural energy and how efficiently he uses sage chakra. Which is why I said "improving your balance" rather than "improving Sage Mode". :sisi:

I don't think anyone can learn senjutsu. From Fukasaku's words, you have to have huge chakra reserves to be able to draw on natural energy at all. To me that sounds like it's fundamentally impossible rather than so dangerous it might as well be impossible. I would think that if you lack of a body that can produce extreme chakra levels, it would automatically reject the natural energy from entering in the first place.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

Is Naruto a genius or an idiot when it comes to chakra control?

Naruto at the begin of the manga is an IGNORANT HYPERACTIVE MORON.

Because this, during the Academy he probably trained a lot but in the wrong way, not studying enough to understand what he was doing wrong. Him being more a kinesthetic learner didn't help a thing.
So he ends having such a shitty chakra control he cannot even make a decent Bunshin(Henge apparently needing less chakra control).

In truth, Naruto is a Chakra Adaptation genius: the same way he did learn Sage Mode(aka adapting one's chakra to the nature energy) super-fast(compared to Jiraiya) he also learned on the spot how to mix and match his chakra to other people's. Him being really good at shape manipulation is probably a side-effect of this.

 

[datakim]

Since Naruto had perfect balance from the beginning, I really doubt his improvements are related to the balance of energies in his bodies but rather how quickly he can gather natural energy and how efficiently he uses sage chakra. Which is why I said "improving your balance" rather than "improving Sage Mode". :sisi:

Plausible enough. It might be that for Naruto, there is a sort of spectrum where he achieves perfect SM, due to his humongous chakra reserves, but he can still improve on it

Sorta like this:
Assume this line is the balance where Naruto has perfect SM.

|-X----Y---------Z--------------|

Its possible that when he first learned perfect SM at the toad mountain, he was at X. Still perfect, but not absolutely balanced, so he took lots of time to enter it and so on. He improved later and reached a better balance at Y. And when he escaped the temple he had reached virtually perfect balance at Z, at which point his mastery was so complete he could enter SM basically instantly, and his sensory ability was so extreme that he could perceive events on a national scale.

I don't think anyone can learn senjutsu. From Fukasaku's words, you have to have huge chakra reserves to be able to draw on natural energy at all. To me that sounds like it's fundamentally impossible rather than so dangerous it might as well be impossible. I would think that if you lack of a body that can produce extreme chakra levels, it would automatically reject the natural energy from entering in the first place.

Maybe, I dunno. I would assume that if you get soaked in the NE toad oil, you get turned to stone even if your chakra reserves are too small to handle it. It might be possible however that learning to sense/draw in NE on your own (without the artificial toad oil) would not be possible.

Actually, it occurs to me that would this not make a pretty nasty attack? This is not exactly the thread where you were inventing jutsus, but consider. We know that its possible to transfer energy/chakra to other people by touch. Not only is it a well known method of breaking someone free of genjutsu, but Naruto demonstrated incredible mastery over it by transferring Kuramas chakra to the alliance with but a touch, and matching that chakra to each individual perfectly.

We also know, that if you are a chakra absorber and absorb Senjutsu chakra without knowing how to control it, you turn to stone. We saw that happen to Pains Preta Path, when the thing absorbed too much Senjutsu chakra from Naruto.

So putting all that together, should it not be possible for Naruto in SM to basically touch someone, and then transfer all the SM/NE in his body to the victim. Since Narutos chakra reserves are huge, he presumably has great amounts of SM/NE in him. Forcefully transferring all of that to someone with less chakra, and who does not know how to balance the energies should instantly transform the victim to stone should it not?

I mean what would be the difference between Naruto transferring his energies to someone directly (as we have seen him do with great mastery), and having someone absorb that chakra from him (which Preta Path did). In both cases, the SM/NE energy from Naruto moves from Naruto to the other person, who lacks the knowledge/chakra to handle it.

When we consider that Naruto was able to transfer huge amounts of Kuramas chakra with but a quick tap on the shoulder, it seems to me that if we look at the whole thing logically, Naruto should be able to basically turn virtually anyone to stone with just a quick touch.

 

[Altered Nova]

I don't think that would work because I think he can transfer only Kurama's chakra to others. Kurama tells Naruto that "the difference between you and me is that I can hand out chakra freely." Naruto had to transform the chakra to match each person's type, but he was only able to do that because Kurama "modified" the chakra before handing it to Naruto. I'm pretty sure that Naruto can't transfer any chakra but Kurama's to other people, and he wouldn't be able to do that either without Kurama's cooperation.

 

[e39042]

I don't think that would work because I think he can transfer only Kurama's chakra to others. Kurama tells Naruto that "the difference between you and me is that I can hand out chakra freely." Naruto had to transform the chakra to match each person's type, but he was only able to do that because Kurama "modified" the chakra before handing it to Naruto. I'm pretty sure that Naruto can't transfer any chakra but Kurama's to other people, and he wouldn't be able to do that either without Kurama's cooperation.

Naruto supplied the chakra Chiyo used to resurrect Gaara. There was no mention of it being Karuma's chakra at the time iirc.

 

[goldenarms]

you guys DO realize that, while being fucking monsters, Team 7 still would need YEARS to reach the level you want?
And they have to survive in first place?

Also, the point of the topic was "Not knowing shit about the future".
As far as one would know at the begin, Naruto would need years just to get enough chakra control for a perfect normal Bunshin, good luck planning to teach him anything more complex before then. Just an example

Given what we've learned about yin and yang natures, it's possible Naruto could never handle techniques that rely on insubstantiality, just because his chakra is so yang-aligned. I would also wager anyone that has huge reserves of chakra is almost certainly yang-aligned.

I like to think of him having the capability to absolutely master his body's internal energies- however, he has a much steeper learning curve due to leaking Kyuubi chakra and never received any training in it in the first place.

Basically, the leaking chakra fucked up his control. But because the chakra was leaking, that offered him... let's say 'insight' into the nature of how different energies act, via compare and contrast. This lead to his eventual mastery of his own physical energy, spiritual energy, yokai, and nature energy... and possibly even eventually all of those at once?

Ironically, having his access to the Fox's chakra sealed up gave him terribad control with the water walking exercise -- once Jiraiya took the seal off, Naruto could stand on water perfectly.

 

[Altered Nova]

I don't think that would work because I think he can transfer only Kurama's chakra to others. Kurama tells Naruto that "the difference between you and me is that I can hand out chakra freely." Naruto had to transform the chakra to match each person's type, but he was only able to do that because Kurama "modified" the chakra before handing it to Naruto. I'm pretty sure that Naruto can't transfer any chakra but Kurama's to other people, and he wouldn't be able to do that either without Kurama's cooperation.

Naruto supplied the chakra Chiyo used to resurrect Gaara. There was no mention of it being Karuma's chakra at the time iirc.

Providing chakra for a willing person to immediately use in a jutsu is a bit different than forcing your chakra into an unwilling person's chakra circulatory system. Actually transferring your chakra into another person's body seems to be a rare and difficult skill, but merely providing them with chakra to use in a jutsu isn't that hard, in fact Naruto does it all the time with the Rasengan. The real Naruto releases the chakra while the clone controls it with shape manipulation. I think what Naruto and Chiyo did was something like that, Naruto released the chakra and Chiyo controlled it with shape and nature transformation.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

Actually, I think in Chiyo's case, it was Chiyo who adapted the chakra, as using other people as chakra batteries seems common in Medical Jutsu
IIRC we have seen that during the healing of Neji... though it might have been only in the anime

 

[Knyght]

It was in the manga:

 

[datakim]

I don't think that would work because I think he can transfer only Kurama's chakra to others. Kurama tells Naruto that "the difference between you and me is that I can hand out chakra freely." Naruto had to transform the chakra to match each person's type, but he was only able to do that because Kurama "modified" the chakra before handing it to Naruto. I'm pretty sure that Naruto can't transfer any chakra but Kurama's to other people, and he wouldn't be able to do that either without Kurama's cooperation.

Except that forcing chakra into the bodies of others is apparently a common practise in breaking genjutsu, which means its not a rare skill.

I guess I could see there being a difference in the way its done. So for example, if your random average shinobi pushes his/her chakra into someone else, then the said chakra enters the chakra system of the target in a chaotic fashion. This then temporarily disrupts the chakra network of the target and in the process also breaks loose any genjutsu the target was under, releasing them from the genjutsus effects. However since the chakra was just chaotically inserted, it does not properly "match" the targets chakra, so the target cannot actually make use of the chakra and no chakra boost for the target is achieved.

I would assume that the Hyuuga gentle fist style actually depends on this style of chakra injection into another person. The difference is that since their eyes can see the critical tenketsu points, they can push chakra directly at that small and critical point, whereas someone without the eyes would basically just push chakra into some random area, and the odds of hitting a tenketsu point randomly without a byakugan is probably one in several million. Either way, in both cases there is no effort made to try to match the unique chakra of the target, since the point is to either disrupt a genjutsu or send a precise chakra pulse at a Tenketsu and in so doing mess up the victims chakra network. In neither case, is the objective to give a chakra boost to the target.

And then there are people like Naruto and Tsunade (and possibly Sakura?), who can actually not just push their chakra into other people, but also "attune" the chakra they push into others in such a way, that the body of the target considers the injected chakra to be close enough match to their own normal chakra, that they can actually make use of the injected chakra as a boost. This way the targets chakra can either be restored to full, or if the chakra difference is extreme (like in the case of Naruto in BM) even give a boost far beyond normal levels.

Tsunade for example was able to restore Oonokis chakra reserves and even boost them so that Oonoki was able to create a bigger than normal dust release technique. And Naruto ofcourse could transfer a huge boost from Kurama, and I would presume that Naruto could transfer his own chakra aswell just as Tsunade did with Oonoki (though obviously in that case the boost would be minor considering that even Narutos chakra is small compared to the massive reserves Kurama has).

So basically, anyone can push their own chakra into the system of another person for the purposes of breaking genjutsu and such, but it takes great skill to make that chakra actually usable by the person who received the chakra injection. However I would presume that when it comes to NE, just having that energy in your system (whether its attuned or not) would be nasty, in which case Naruto pushing senjutsu chakra into others might indeed be a viable weapon. I mean what does it matter if Naruto pushes Natural Energy infused chakra in some chaotic fashion into another person. The NE still enters the other person, and unless said person has the skill to either balance the NE and enter SM, or somehow recognize the NE and expel it (which based on what happened to Preta Path is not a simple thing), then they are stoned.

Furthermore, I would say that the fact that the Hyuuga can inject chakra into the tenketsu points and in doing so cripple the victim suggests that it is not possible for the target to consciously block the chakra from entering. If it was, then the gentle fist style of Hyuuga would not work, since anyone fighting a Hyuuga would just refuse the chakra the Hyuuga pushes into the tenketsu point. But we know gentle first works, so even though a target might be unwilling to receive senjutsu chakra from Naruto, the gentle fist example demonstrates that they cannot just refuse said chakra. In order to avoid having NE injected into a person, that person would have to basically fight Naruto the way you would have to fight a Hyuuga. Which is to say, avoid close combat alltogether and don't let Naruto touch you.

So in a nutshell, I see no reason why Naruto could not push senjutsu chakra into the body of another person, and the gentle fist combat style proves that its not possible for the target to consciously block the incoming chakra from entering their body. And if we assume that this is intended as an attack, then Naruto would obviously not even bother to try and attune his own chakra to match the targets chakra, since the objective would not be to boost the chakra reserves of the target, but just push in enough NE to the body of the victim to turn the victim into stone.