Naruto Kakashi's special training
- Thread starter BlackSun
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Or maybe the Yondaime taught Kakashi the Rasengan somewhere between the end of Kakashi Gaiden and the Kyuubi attack, why shouldn't he? He only had two students left, one of them a medic, which would be a waste to teach the Rasengan too, and the other being Kakashi. I wonder where and how this "Yondaime hates Kakashi"-fanon originated, it doesn't even have any basis in reality. And no I don't see Sasuke copying the Rasengan, it's been heavily implied that it cannot be instantly copied with the Sharingan because it doesn't use handseals, but that does not exclude the possibility of one recreating it through trial and error, like Neji did with the Hakkeshou Kaiten and the Hakke Rokujuuyonshou. And you know what? Kakashi and Sasuke might actually be smart enough to do it. Don't do Kishimoto's job for him and add even more features to the Sharingan.
The Rasengan isn't a technique that's physically impossible for anyone but Jiraiya, Naruto and the Yondaime to perform, it's just raw chakra-manipulation, anyone with enough control and power can do it, assuming they can figure out "the secret of the Rasengan". What's the big secret? It's demonstrated everytime someone performs it, spin the chakra in your hand and there you have it. The only reason, I think, that every hidden village doesn't have Jounins running around with their own Rasengan is because the Yondaime and Jiraiya mastered the imperfect version and knew how to use it, when they used the Rasengan their opponents died, they could whip it out in less than a second with both hands, they didn't leave anyone that was near enough to see the details of it's formation live, they didn't telegraph to the whole world that they were doing a special move by creating a clone that stood next to them and held their hand. Naruto's use of the Rasengan is basically "the dummy's guide to perform the Rasengan", and he shows it to anyone that might be interested.
For some weird reason the Rasengan has become some sort of sacred cow in the Naruto fandom, anyone else besides Jiraiya-Yondaime-Naruto using it is sacrilege, I'm guessing it's something spawned by the "Yondaime is Naruto's father and Jiraiya a distant relative/grandfather"-people, their desperate need for anything resembling a bloodline for Naruto overshadowing their reason, they usually also give the same exclusivity to the Hiraishin.
The Rasengan isn't a technique that's physically impossible for anyone but Jiraiya, Naruto and the Yondaime to perform, it's just raw chakra-manipulation, anyone with enough control and power can do it, assuming they can figure out "the secret of the Rasengan". What's the big secret? It's demonstrated everytime someone performs it, spin the chakra in your hand and there you have it. The only reason, I think, that every hidden village doesn't have Jounins running around with their own Rasengan is because the Yondaime and Jiraiya mastered the imperfect version and knew how to use it, when they used the Rasengan their opponents died, they could whip it out in less than a second with both hands, they didn't leave anyone that was near enough to see the details of it's formation live, they didn't telegraph to the whole world that they were doing a special move by creating a clone that stood next to them and held their hand. Naruto's use of the Rasengan is basically "the dummy's guide to perform the Rasengan", and he shows it to anyone that might be interested.
For some weird reason the Rasengan has become some sort of sacred cow in the Naruto fandom, anyone else besides Jiraiya-Yondaime-Naruto using it is sacrilege, I'm guessing it's something spawned by the "Yondaime is Naruto's father and Jiraiya a distant relative/grandfather"-people, their desperate need for anything resembling a bloodline for Naruto overshadowing their reason, they usually also give the same exclusivity to the Hiraishin.
How about that we actually see Kakashi ask Yonny to teach him his techniques... and Yonny flat out says 'No'?
Nowhere AT ALL is it implied or suggested he changed his mind, and the only person who's been CONFIRMED to have been taught by Yondaime is Jiraiya. Kakashi asked and was turned down. End.
Saying Yonny changed his mind is pure fanon, whereas we know that last we saw him he was not keen on teaching Kakashi any of his skills. What we see is him saying no, and we never see him change his mind ANYwhere, so anything saying 'he taught it to Kakashi' is bull, ESPECIALLY when Kakashi is already busy perfecting his Chidori and stealing jutsu on the side.
Also, the thing about the Rasengan stems most likely from teh fact the Sharingan users already have TOO DAMN MANY things going for them - both can arguably use KB, since it can be copied (and I don't doubt Sasuke comied it), and now Kakashi, on op of the new Bullshit Sharingan, ALSO knows Rasengan?
Sorry, no. Let Naruto have something that he can call his own without the gay Marysuegan users also pulling it off.
Nowhere AT ALL is it implied or suggested he changed his mind, and the only person who's been CONFIRMED to have been taught by Yondaime is Jiraiya. Kakashi asked and was turned down. End.
Saying Yonny changed his mind is pure fanon, whereas we know that last we saw him he was not keen on teaching Kakashi any of his skills. What we see is him saying no, and we never see him change his mind ANYwhere, so anything saying 'he taught it to Kakashi' is bull, ESPECIALLY when Kakashi is already busy perfecting his Chidori and stealing jutsu on the side.
Also, the thing about the Rasengan stems most likely from teh fact the Sharingan users already have TOO DAMN MANY things going for them - both can arguably use KB, since it can be copied (and I don't doubt Sasuke comied it), and now Kakashi, on op of the new Bullshit Sharingan, ALSO knows Rasengan?
Sorry, no. Let Naruto have something that he can call his own without the gay Marysuegan users also pulling it off.
Speaking of fanon, we never see Kakashi ask Yondaime to teach him any jutsu, read any Foxhound lately? Keep manga and fanfiction separate ^_^
I know the Sharingan has everything, doesn't make what I said any less true, and since when does Naruto have copyright ownership over the Kage Bunshin? It's been around since before the 3rd ninja war, over 10 years before Naruto was born, he's just one of the few with enough chakra and stamina that's capable to build an entire fightingstyle around it, doesn't mean that everyone else should back off and let Naruto have one of the best jutsu ever created, one he didn't create himself. Spare the "Noone but Naruto should use it"-arguments for the jutsu Naruto himself creates, like the perfected Rasengan he'll soon be whipping around and which will be nearly impossible to recreate.
I know the Sharingan has everything, doesn't make what I said any less true, and since when does Naruto have copyright ownership over the Kage Bunshin? It's been around since before the 3rd ninja war, over 10 years before Naruto was born, he's just one of the few with enough chakra and stamina that's capable to build an entire fightingstyle around it, doesn't mean that everyone else should back off and let Naruto have one of the best jutsu ever created, one he didn't create himself. Spare the "Noone but Naruto should use it"-arguments for the jutsu Naruto himself creates, like the perfected Rasengan he'll soon be whipping around and which will be nearly impossible to recreate.
Not entirely correct. He was admittedly curious about Yondaime's skills, he just never actually asked him to teach him anything *specific*. And Yonny never offered, either. Or even helped him - he always let Kakashi figure things out alone. Why do you think Kakashi uses the same method to teach Team 7?
Either way, chances are very, very high that Kakashi did NOT ask permission to learn the Rasengan, back then. And frankly, the way he talks of it (mentioning that he'd known all along) just makes him even more shitty. If he knew, why not teach Naruto, or at least show him and let him figure the rest out? But nooo, he had to train the PRECIOUS UCHIHA and hand him his personal jutsu on a silver platter.
Either way, chances are very, very high that Kakashi did NOT ask permission to learn the Rasengan, back then. And frankly, the way he talks of it (mentioning that he'd known all along) just makes him even more shitty. If he knew, why not teach Naruto, or at least show him and let him figure the rest out? But nooo, he had to train the PRECIOUS UCHIHA and hand him his personal jutsu on a silver platter.
Atleast have some basis for your speculation, Yondaime died more than 10 years after the end of Kakashi Gaiden, to assume he never taught his student Kakashi anything during that time other than chakra-control is really pushing it, but to assume that their teacher/student-relationship is exactly like the one Naruto and Kakashi had is just fanon-spawning horror. We saw them on a short mission where Yondaime gave Kakashi command, obviously he trusted Kakashi with the other's lives, if he has such faith in him why is it so inconcievable to think that sometime he might teach Kakashi one of his personal techniques? They have to be passed on somehow, and since Jiraiya didn't teach a new genin-team it would fall to the Yondaime to do so, unless you're of the opinion that he wouldn't pass on any of his techniques, despite the leverage it'd give Konoha's ninjas. Doesn't sound like the Yondaime that'd sacrifice a child to save and strenghten his village.
If there are different opinions on a subject that can't be verified by the sourcematerial where it's clearly stated/shown, assume that neither can be with 100% certainty true, don't pick a side and not consider anything else as possible simply because you hate an ability or a character. Don't make assumptions on the odds of something happening either, that's just fluff to make your claim seem more plausible, and entirely irrelevant. So what if chances are very very high? that's just a guess about what a character will do during a 10-year timespan, a little optimistic don't you think? Circumstances change, often and alot. Don't rule anything out, for all we know Kakashi may have bribed him with porn or a rare type of ramen.
As for why Kakashi didn't teach Naruto the Rasengan, he didn't have it until Kishimoto borrowed the idea of chakra-elements and decided that Rasengan was incomplete, just another plothole on the pile. But if you want to ignore it, assume that Kakashi thought Naruto was incapable of learning it, considering Naruto's performance during Part.1 I don't blame him, and don't bother with the "Naruto learned Kage Bunshin in a single night", Rasengan is on a whole other level. Kakashi judges books by their cover, rumours and first impression seems to matter alot to him, he underestimated Naruto, so what? Every damn character in the manga has done that, if you're gonna bash Kakashi for it, atleast be consistent and bash every other character.
If there are different opinions on a subject that can't be verified by the sourcematerial where it's clearly stated/shown, assume that neither can be with 100% certainty true, don't pick a side and not consider anything else as possible simply because you hate an ability or a character. Don't make assumptions on the odds of something happening either, that's just fluff to make your claim seem more plausible, and entirely irrelevant. So what if chances are very very high? that's just a guess about what a character will do during a 10-year timespan, a little optimistic don't you think? Circumstances change, often and alot. Don't rule anything out, for all we know Kakashi may have bribed him with porn or a rare type of ramen.
As for why Kakashi didn't teach Naruto the Rasengan, he didn't have it until Kishimoto borrowed the idea of chakra-elements and decided that Rasengan was incomplete, just another plothole on the pile. But if you want to ignore it, assume that Kakashi thought Naruto was incapable of learning it, considering Naruto's performance during Part.1 I don't blame him, and don't bother with the "Naruto learned Kage Bunshin in a single night", Rasengan is on a whole other level. Kakashi judges books by their cover, rumours and first impression seems to matter alot to him, he underestimated Naruto, so what? Every damn character in the manga has done that, if you're gonna bash Kakashi for it, atleast be consistent and bash every other character.
First off, every other character is NOT Naruto's Jounin teacher. Kakashi should have actually assessed their abilities, instead of going by rumor and first impression. That's a mark of a truly terrible TEAM LEADER, not just a terrible teacher, and just shows that he's unfit for anything beyond solo missions.
And I question whether even THOSE are something he should undertake - he severely underestimated Zabuza, and had his GENIN (whom he didn't think could do anything, by the way) not saved his ass, he'd have drowned in Zabuza's water prison.
Kakashi is skilled at fighting, but has been shown to stink at everything else - ESPECIALLY judgment, which is something the Kakashi gaiden clearly shows Yonny valued - and I'm guessing the Fourth KNEW that, and that's precisely why he wouldn't teach him any overly important jutsu.
Basically, kakashi's good enough to give him orders and expect him to carry them out, but I'd just as soon trust Iruka with anything truly important than I would Kakashi. His whole performance during his Team 7 stint has been nothing short of catastrophic, and I question how he can be a top Jounin when he's shown such gross incompetence in nearly every major situation he's been in.
A ninja isn't all about badass jutsu - if they lack reliability, they are worthless. Kakashi is just extremely high-level cannon fodder, but leave him out of the planning and assessing stages - he'll cause a disaster. Canon pretty much shows that.
How's this for a dispassionate analysis?
Don't get me wrong, I could equally demolish every other character in Naruto, but Kakashi raises the incompetence bar to a level that shouldn't be possible given his reputation.
EDIT: fixed a few typos. Rant over.
And I question whether even THOSE are something he should undertake - he severely underestimated Zabuza, and had his GENIN (whom he didn't think could do anything, by the way) not saved his ass, he'd have drowned in Zabuza's water prison.
Kakashi is skilled at fighting, but has been shown to stink at everything else - ESPECIALLY judgment, which is something the Kakashi gaiden clearly shows Yonny valued - and I'm guessing the Fourth KNEW that, and that's precisely why he wouldn't teach him any overly important jutsu.
Basically, kakashi's good enough to give him orders and expect him to carry them out, but I'd just as soon trust Iruka with anything truly important than I would Kakashi. His whole performance during his Team 7 stint has been nothing short of catastrophic, and I question how he can be a top Jounin when he's shown such gross incompetence in nearly every major situation he's been in.
A ninja isn't all about badass jutsu - if they lack reliability, they are worthless. Kakashi is just extremely high-level cannon fodder, but leave him out of the planning and assessing stages - he'll cause a disaster. Canon pretty much shows that.
How's this for a dispassionate analysis?
Don't get me wrong, I could equally demolish every other character in Naruto, but Kakashi raises the incompetence bar to a level that shouldn't be possible given his reputation.
EDIT: fixed a few typos. Rant over.
All teachers in Konoha are idiots, that includes Jiraiya, Sandaime, Tsunade, Iruka etc. Wouldn't actually be surprised if Yondaime's character was also raped by plotdevices thought up by a desperate Kishimoto, the same that every other teacher's been subjected to.
As for judgement, it might have been the reason why the red-tapist Kakashi wasn't taught it, the one that valued mission objectives over friends. That one, however, died on that mission, the new Kakashi was a significant improvement moral-wise and might have given Yondaime second thoughts about passing on jutsu. Even if the new Kakashi turned out to be a neglient basket case it doesn't mean that Yondaime isn't capable of making the same mistakes that all other teachers in the manga have. Just a thought.
EDIT: Heh, bashing Konoha teachers made me think of something ironic, remember how Jiraiya belittled Naruto after the rescue-mission and said that on his own he'd not come up with anything useful? 3 years later Naruto's seal has weakened, he's capable of going berserk and reducing his lifespan while doing it and he's made a powered-up Rasengan that requires the same chakra that makes him lose control and go berserk. Good job Jiraiya, those 3 years sure were well-spent. Naruto should have stayed with Kakashi in Konoha and worked on his wind element and going through Kakashi's jutsu-library with an army of Kage bunshins.
As for judgement, it might have been the reason why the red-tapist Kakashi wasn't taught it, the one that valued mission objectives over friends. That one, however, died on that mission, the new Kakashi was a significant improvement moral-wise and might have given Yondaime second thoughts about passing on jutsu. Even if the new Kakashi turned out to be a neglient basket case it doesn't mean that Yondaime isn't capable of making the same mistakes that all other teachers in the manga have. Just a thought.
EDIT: Heh, bashing Konoha teachers made me think of something ironic, remember how Jiraiya belittled Naruto after the rescue-mission and said that on his own he'd not come up with anything useful? 3 years later Naruto's seal has weakened, he's capable of going berserk and reducing his lifespan while doing it and he's made a powered-up Rasengan that requires the same chakra that makes him lose control and go berserk. Good job Jiraiya, those 3 years sure were well-spent. Naruto should have stayed with Kakashi in Konoha and worked on his wind element and going through Kakashi's jutsu-library with an army of Kage bunshins.
Wrong. The odds that Yondaime lived even five years after the K.Gaiden are virtually zero. He couldn't have, as there wasn't enough time. Kakashi in canon is about 26. Naruto is 12, pre-TimeSkip. The KG was almost certainly before the Fourth took that position; why would he have been leading a team if he was supposed to be leading the whole village instead? Kakashi in the KG looks like he's an early teenager; thirteen, maybe fourteen tops. Odds are, Yondaime actually became Yondaime shortly after that mission and was dead only a couple years after that. There isn't enough time for anything else, even in Bakamoto's little makebelieve dreamland where anyone who doesn't have a Sharingan isn't worth shit.
Right you are, thought it sounded strange. I skipped the pages of the Gaiden where Yondaime wasn't interacting with his team when I wrote my post. Somehow got it into my head that "around 10 years ago.." was 10 years before the start of the manga, not 10 years before the timeskip 
Still it's more than enough time for things to change drastically, Part.1 of the manga wasn't even a full year, if I recall correct, and look how much Naruto and his team changed.
Still it's more than enough time for things to change drastically, Part.1 of the manga wasn't even a full year, if I recall correct, and look how much Naruto and his team changed.
Yeah - ON THEIR OWN, mostly. And look at how much Naruto, under Jiraiya's coaching, changed. And for all his faults, Jiraiya is a BETTER teacher than Kakashi. :no:
Considering that Naruto, in 3 years, made less progress than he did in less than 1, by training alone, I find it HIGHLY doubtful that Yonny cound have done any better. ESPECIALLY once he became Hokage. Look at how much stuff Sarutobi had to do - not even time to train his own grandson. And back then, Konoha was at WAR, or at least in constant guerrilla. No way Yonny had enough time to teach much, if anything.
Please, consider the whole picture. It just fails to add up. Looking for an excuse to say Yondaime taught Kakashi something liek that - AND - did his job as Hokage, not to mention took part in skirmishes with the enemies (his reputation came from that, after all) is crazy. He's not The fucking Flash, regardless of his nick - he can't be everywhere at once.
So either Kakashi figured the damn thing out alone - and most likely WITHOUT permission from the 4th - or... well, there's no 'or'. That's the only scenario that makes a shred of sense.
And now for the coup. Kakashi himself admits the Rasengan takes a lot of chakra.
During the bell test, the only info worth a damn he got was that Naruto had a lot of chakra.
How does a supposed genius not connect the dots, ESPECIALLY knowing that Jiraiya also used to be the dead last of his team?
Face it, the whole 'Kakashi knows the Rasengan' bullshit was just a ploy by Bakamoto to belittle Naruto even more and make the Mary Suegan users (in this case Kakashi) look even more badass, despite sucking royally when push comes to shove.
And I guarantee you that Sasuke WILL use a Rasengan, thus leaving Naruto with exactly NOTHING he can call his own.
The problem with this, of course, is that Naruto is going the Harry Potter way - Bakamoto's digging himself in an unescapable hole, simply because Naruto just plain has no way to actually BEAT Sasuke, Rasengan perfected or not. Now that Kyuubi's chakra can be suppressed by the Mary Suegan, he has to rely on his INCREDIBLY SUCKY personal skills, and seeing how Kakashi brilliantly didn't train him when he had the chance, he's lagging behind too much to catch up.
Heck, SAKURA made more progress. Shounen heroes generall do better than that, but Naruto has been getting steadily worse than the rest of the cast, barring Kyuubi intervention. I'm sorry, this just reeks of Mary Suegan love. Don't bother rationalizing Kakashi knowing the Rasengan. It's just another idiotic idea that makes no sense.
Considering that Naruto, in 3 years, made less progress than he did in less than 1, by training alone, I find it HIGHLY doubtful that Yonny cound have done any better. ESPECIALLY once he became Hokage. Look at how much stuff Sarutobi had to do - not even time to train his own grandson. And back then, Konoha was at WAR, or at least in constant guerrilla. No way Yonny had enough time to teach much, if anything.
Please, consider the whole picture. It just fails to add up. Looking for an excuse to say Yondaime taught Kakashi something liek that - AND - did his job as Hokage, not to mention took part in skirmishes with the enemies (his reputation came from that, after all) is crazy. He's not The fucking Flash, regardless of his nick - he can't be everywhere at once.
So either Kakashi figured the damn thing out alone - and most likely WITHOUT permission from the 4th - or... well, there's no 'or'. That's the only scenario that makes a shred of sense.
And now for the coup. Kakashi himself admits the Rasengan takes a lot of chakra.
During the bell test, the only info worth a damn he got was that Naruto had a lot of chakra.
How does a supposed genius not connect the dots, ESPECIALLY knowing that Jiraiya also used to be the dead last of his team?
Face it, the whole 'Kakashi knows the Rasengan' bullshit was just a ploy by Bakamoto to belittle Naruto even more and make the Mary Suegan users (in this case Kakashi) look even more badass, despite sucking royally when push comes to shove.
And I guarantee you that Sasuke WILL use a Rasengan, thus leaving Naruto with exactly NOTHING he can call his own.
The problem with this, of course, is that Naruto is going the Harry Potter way - Bakamoto's digging himself in an unescapable hole, simply because Naruto just plain has no way to actually BEAT Sasuke, Rasengan perfected or not. Now that Kyuubi's chakra can be suppressed by the Mary Suegan, he has to rely on his INCREDIBLY SUCKY personal skills, and seeing how Kakashi brilliantly didn't train him when he had the chance, he's lagging behind too much to catch up.
Heck, SAKURA made more progress. Shounen heroes generall do better than that, but Naruto has been getting steadily worse than the rest of the cast, barring Kyuubi intervention. I'm sorry, this just reeks of Mary Suegan love. Don't bother rationalizing Kakashi knowing the Rasengan. It's just another idiotic idea that makes no sense.
So we have Kishimoto screwing poor Naruto and the damn manga is named after him. :no:
Whats so special about the Sharingan when all you have to do to defeat the damn thing is make it hard or impossible for the user to see or be seen?
Hell the damn Abrumae clan probobly scared the Uchiha shitless due to the fact that they could ambush them, using those chakra eating beetles, and once they got on the poor idiot.....
Whats so special about the Sharingan when all you have to do to defeat the damn thing is make it hard or impossible for the user to see or be seen?
Hell the damn Abrumae clan probobly scared the Uchiha shitless due to the fact that they could ambush them, using those chakra eating beetles, and once they got on the poor idiot.....
Ohh, there's an idea I REALLY want to see written.
Especially if the Aburame get their hands on some of Yavin IV's Pirahna-Beetles.
...Anyway, jutsu.
Kakashi can't really use Rasengan to its best, since it takes too much chakra for his weak self. He obviously (somehow) puzzled out how it works, though. So, since he learned his sensei was trying to imbue Rasengan with elemental chakra, he just flat out creates a lightning-chakra jutsu to be used for similar purposes.
Thoughts:
-Chidori takes much more chakra. WHY the BLUE HELL is Kakashi going with the more expensive version, when chakra cost is a main reason for him not using Rasengan in the first place?!
-Sharingan can't copy Rasengan. Good. But, apparently, hard work and ingenuity succeed where cheat devices - er, Bloodline Limits fail. Okay. I guess I can swallow that much.
-If Naruto's Wind chakra makes things sharper, and he succeeds in combining it and Rasengan... Holy shit, it just turned into a portable wood-chipper from Hell! I wanna see this happen, even if the manga sucks!
Alternatively, making it into a thrown attack is fine too.
-Kakashi is a dipshit. Period.
-Sasuke is worse - he took a stupid technique and made it more flashy.
Especially if the Aburame get their hands on some of Yavin IV's Pirahna-Beetles.
...Anyway, jutsu.
Kakashi can't really use Rasengan to its best, since it takes too much chakra for his weak self. He obviously (somehow) puzzled out how it works, though. So, since he learned his sensei was trying to imbue Rasengan with elemental chakra, he just flat out creates a lightning-chakra jutsu to be used for similar purposes.
Thoughts:
-Chidori takes much more chakra. WHY the BLUE HELL is Kakashi going with the more expensive version, when chakra cost is a main reason for him not using Rasengan in the first place?!
-Sharingan can't copy Rasengan. Good. But, apparently, hard work and ingenuity succeed where cheat devices - er, Bloodline Limits fail. Okay. I guess I can swallow that much.
-If Naruto's Wind chakra makes things sharper, and he succeeds in combining it and Rasengan... Holy shit, it just turned into a portable wood-chipper from Hell! I wanna see this happen, even if the manga sucks!
Alternatively, making it into a thrown attack is fine too.
-Kakashi is a dipshit. Period.
-Sasuke is worse - he took a stupid technique and made it more flashy.