Naruto Kakashi's special training

toraneko

Well-Known Member
Mighty Bob said:
Really though, the whole concept of promoting someone to a leadership position based on how they handle one on one fights seems pretty screwed up to begin with to me.
Agreed, and the argument is hereby over, as nothing said after this can possibly top its effective rationale.
 
The problem is that Bakamoto INTENTIONALLY belittles Naruto. He has all the potential right there, and only a blind bat would fail to see it, but making him actually, y'know, be competent, would overshadow Sasgay. THAT right there is the only damn reason why Bakamoto still has Naruto act like a dumbfuck.

And for the record, while it's true Naruto tends to rush in, it's also true he tends to try keeping his teammates out of trouble too. That's why he attacked Orochimaru solo, and IMHO, if Sasuke and Sakura had listened to him and not come back, Orochimaru would probably have just KOed him and left in an attempt to catch up, which might well have failed, given how much time he wasted on Naruto.

I mean, he had a clear chance to kill Naruto when he sealed him, but passed it up... so why would he have killed him anyway? He was just testing him if you ask me.

Naruto's reckless all you want, but only when HE is the only one who'll be in danger. When his teammates are in danger, he thinks of them first, and of himself second.
 

Pirazy

Well-Known Member
Has it occurred to you that Naruto is stealthy enough to hide and/or get away from Chuunin and Jounin on a REGULAR BASIS whenever he pulls one of his idiotic pranks? And that was BEFORE he even became Genin.

So much for Naruto not being capable of stealth.
There's a difference between sneaking around unseen in hostile territory and get out without anybody noticing and painting the Hokage monument for all to see and then run until you get caught. What Naruto was doing was fleeing a pursuer, impressive considering they were chuunins chasing an academy student, but he still got caught. Running away only requires speed and stamina, not something Naruto was lacking. You're comparing apples and oranges here.

You're fighting an uphill battle here. All you see is him wearing orange and charging at Neji, disregarding EVERY INSTANCE where he managed to cook up a plan on the spot that let him surprise or blindside his opponent.
I'm not disregarding every time Naruto has come up with a plan, problem is he always "charges in wearing orange", that's his first impulse in every battle, the planning comes after his initial attempt failed, not exactly leader-like behaviour right? Not every opponent is gonna allow you a 2nd, 3rd and 4th attempt at getting it right.

He was observant enough to know Sasuke only let his guard down when he was eating. He was good enough to avoid, among others, an INUZUKA when he stole the scroll of seals (and unless the pale eyes of the guy in the background deceive me, he also avoided a Hyuuga - you know, 360 degree X-ray farsight vision guys?).
I never questioned Naruto's observational skills, I probably should have considering he almost entirely lacks them. He caught an academy student? Wow.. that's real impressive, a real measure of skill. Too bad it was just a plotdevise to get Sakura to say she hated him face to face, and to have Sasuke brush her off when she was rambling about not having parents, to show the reader how the characters feel about eachother and establish a base of their relationship so we'd have something to compare to years down the line. I was especially impressed by his observational skills in v19ch165, when he didn't understand why Kabuto attacked Tsunade, despite him having a Sound headband on his forehead, and still had trouble believing it, despite both Jiraiya and Kabuto saying it.

I'm assuming that the Inuzuka and Hyuuga you saw were in the anime considering they weren't in the manga, but still, I'll indulge you despite the irrelevance of the anime. Naruto didn't avoid anybody, when Sandaime raised the alarm Naruto was already in the forest unrolling the scroll. Stumbled upon something interesting though, Chouji's dad is seen standing in the crowd that demands Naruto to be executed, agreeing very loudly. Somehow I thought he would be above it considering Chouji's very friendly with Naruto.

Heck, he was good enough to improvise against Neji, despite his ASSIGNED TEACHER pretty much leaving him as sacrificial lamb while training emoboy (yeah, Naruto only risked a heart attack or a crippling injury against Neji, who showed no hesitation attacking his own blood. And chakra control helps OH SO MUCH against a guy who can SEAL YOUR CHAKRA. Die, Kakashi.), although it was a long shot.

Had it not been for Jiraiya removing that seal Oro put on him there's a large chance Naruto would've been killed in the fight with neji. Kakashi had to know this. Naruto DOES NOT give up, ever. Yet, he clearly assumed he would.
Again, I've never questioned Naruto's ability to adapt and improvise, Kakashi's neglience is irrelevant to my arguments, I know he's a bastard who, had it not been for Jiraiya's interference, would have gotten Naruto killed, or worse; Naruto being unable to handle the Kyuubi's chakra once it's finally pushed on him during the fight with Neji or Sasuke and as a result, the Kyuubi being released and killing a whole bunch of people plus Naruto.
 

Pirazy

Well-Known Member
Well, I'm gonna call it quits now, getting tired and hungry <_<
Been nice arguing with you GH but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, look on the bright side though, we share a common dislike for Kishimoto's treatment of Naruto and various characters like Kakashi and Sasuke ;)
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
Hold up, hold up.

Imagine the following scenario: Sasuke's escort when he escapes the village is Orochimaru and Kabuto instead of the Sound 4, do you think that Naruto as a team leader would:
A: Decide to retreat due to overwhelming odds.
B: Attack immediately after coming up with a hastily thought-out plan that assumes it's a 100% chance of success, like all his plans.
Did you forget the lesson of the first part of the exam? That was the entire point of the 10th question, a chuunin has to be able to lead his team into those types of dangerous situations to complete their mission. A chuunin has to be able to lead a mission where not only he but his team will die.

I'm not disregarding every time Naruto has come up with a plan, problem is he always "charges in wearing orange", that's his first impulse in every battle, the planning comes after his initial attempt failed, not exactly leader-like behaviour right? Not every opponent is gonna allow you a 2nd, 3rd and 4th attempt at getting it right.
Again, hold it. Only in the anime does Naruto blindly charge in every battle. In most of his battles he leads with Kage Bunshins and has them do the charge, while he gets a grasp of his opponent. This is true agains Neji, Kabuto, the Sound Four, Kimimaro (even while he was berserk). The only ones he really didn't do this for were Gaara (who he had to save Sasuke from) and Sasuke himself.
 

puckreathof

Well-Known Member
Holy Crap. I go away for a day and all of this springs up. I am glad that Shikamaru's geniusity doesn't hold up against the clear light of day to a lot of people. For a while, I thought I was the only one. Hell, the funniest thing about Shika and the fact that he got promoted is that it would have been IMPOSSIBLE without Naruto. Naruto was the one who literally pushed him into the ring against Temari. Without Naruto, he would have given up, just like Kankuro did.

There's more I'd like to say, but I'm too damn tired to say it, so I'll end with 'Damn the Prestige is a good movie'.
 

Pirazy

Well-Known Member
Did you forget the lesson of the first part of the exam?á That was the entire point of the 10th question, a chuunin has to be able to lead his team into those types of dangerous situations to complete their mission.á A chuunin has to be able to lead a mission where not only he but his team will die.
There is a crucial difference in the scenarios mentioned, in the one Ibiki gave they had a mission, to retrieve a document, but the number of enemy ninja and their abilities were unknown. Meaning there was still a chance of success, maybe there'd be a whole pluton guarding it or maybe it'd just be a small team, it'd be worth it to send a team or two in to scout the situation and if the odds proved favorable, proceed with the mission. In my example the Rescue Team would know who they were up against before they engaged them, and it was a 0% chance of succeeding. That's the crucial difference, one mission has a chance of success, the other would just be throwing away the lives of promising ninja. Or are you telling me the Rescue Team would have even a remote chance of beating those two? I'd like to think that the Hokage and the council have enough faith in the commanding officers to trust them when they say that their entire team would be wiped out had they gone ahead with the mission, if they don't they'd run out of ninjas to send on suicide-missions real fast.

Again, hold it.á Only in the anime does Naruto blindly charge in every battle.á In most of his battles he leads with Kage Bunshins and has them do the charge, while he gets a grasp of his opponent.á This is true agains Neji, Kabuto, the Sound Four, Kimimaro (even while he was berserk).á The only ones he really didn't do this for were Gaara (who he had to save Sasuke from) and Sasuke himself.
Actually, when he fought with Neji and Kabuto he created a small number of kage bunshin but he still charged in with them, if he did it to gauge his opponents abilities he wouldn't charge in together with them, he'd hide himself while they did the work. Naruto creates kage bunshin to increase his chances of landing a hit, it has nothing to do with caution. As for the Sound 4, he wasn't acting on his own then, he was under Shikamaru's command and followed his orders all the time, although sometimes he needed a push.

Fighting Kimimaro is the only instance in a fight where he initially sent in the clones and stayed back, although that was probably just a plot-device to keep him alive until Rock Lee got there, it's the only fight where he's had backup on the way and the only time where he's summoned that many clones, it was just a poorly disguised attempt by Kishimoto to buy him some time. he had no chance whatsoever in close combat and it showed, his lack of focus came up once again when he turned his back on Kimimaro to scream at Sasuke and almost got his head cut off. And he wasn't berserk, he used the Kyuubi's chakra but calling it berserk implies he had no control and was fighting solely on instinct, and against anything that he encountered, like he does when using the fourth tail post-TS.

In the fight against Gaara he first attacked without clones when Gaara taunted him after Naruto said he was gonna kick his ass if he hurt his friends. After that he attacks together with his clones, just like he did against Neji and Kabuto, he's not gauging his opponent, the purpose of doing that is to get an idea of the enemy's abilities without putting your life in danger, rushing in together with the sacrifical clones kinda defeats that purpose.
 
The problem is that Kabuto had already seen the Kage Bunshin trick, so it would have been pointless to stay back, since Kabuto managed to make a fool of KAKASHI, of all people. Also, in that moment Naruto was very angry, and also probably figured that two on one, two Sannin should beat their old teammate easily, so no sense in worrying abouyt the others - and as I mentioned, he only charges in when he's not worrying about anyone else, or when he has to to protect that anyone by providing a distraction. It is a fact that when Naruto engaged him, Gaara forgot all about Sakura and Sasuke... so in a sense, he did the right thing.

As for Neji, correction: the clones advanced, then Neji took them all out and attacked Naruto directly (and note he was BEHIND them, using them as a frontline). Against a Byakugan user, the Kage Bunshin is of little use, as their 360 X-Ray vision allows a Hyuuga to keep the whole field under control - so Neji knew which one the real Naruto was from the get-go, simply because he never lost track of him.
 
One more thing: I'd argue that the only thing holding Naruto back is lack of proper insruction. Kakashi stinks horribly as a teacher, and is even worse than Naruto when it comes to battle tactics at times (yeah, you go create an assassination jutsu that alerts the whole frigging COUNTRY to your presence. Way to go).

Iruka was just a Chuunin, and had been out of action for years, I suspect.

Everyone else was hatin' on him.

So yeah, for someone SELF TAUGHT, Naruto is a damn tactical genius, since he has more common sense than several PROPERLY TRAINED Genin.

I should also add that Naruto is naturally meant to be brute force. But that doesn't stop ninja from making Jounin, or else, for example, Gai Maito would never have made it, seeing how almost completely focused on close combat and nothing else he is.

True, Gai has finesse... but according to his stats in the databook, he's by far the worst Jounin at both Ninjutsu and Genjutsu, being almost Genin level there. He's not as bad off as Lee who has basically zero skill in that, but he's still pretty bad.

And Lee still made Chuunin in the TJ, by the way. Despite having no battle tricks to speak of besides a literally suicidal one, which essentially makes him less versatile than Naruto, especially in a team where Neji Hyuuga is an even greater close combat specialist. Hmm...
 
Actually, Neji says himself that even the Byakugen can't tell which is the real Naruto, because the chakra is spread evenly. The Naruto he attacks is a Kage Bunshin who Naruto made stand out by not attacking.
 
Christopher Robin said:
Actually, Neji says himself that even the Byakugen can't tell which is the real Naruto, because the chakra is spread evenly. The Naruto he attacks is a Kage Bunshin who Naruto made stand out by not attacking.
Hmm... so Naruto used a Kage Bunshin as decoy? Well, that just argues that he planned well and attacking en masse was a calculated risk.
 
Christopher Robin said:
I don't care how good he was in a fight, I still wouldn't let him lead me on a mission.
None of the Naruto ninja are good leader material, quite frankly. They place a stupidly huge emphasis on combat skills, and stealth has little to nothing to do with them.

Would you let one of the supposed 'smart ones' lead you? ALL of them are sure to get their team killed, one way or the other. Be it through arrogance, laziness, uselessness, ineptitude or simply lack of talent. Even Shino would be a terrible leader. He's too much of a loner, going off (without permission, I might add) during a war situation after Kankuro for personal reasons and nearly getting poisoned to death as a result.
 

Pirazy

Well-Known Member
GenocideHeart said:
Christopher Robin said:
Actually, Neji says himself that even the Byakugen can't tell which is the real Naruto, because the chakra is spread evenly.? The Naruto he attacks is a Kage Bunshin who Naruto made stand out by not attacking.
Hmm... so Naruto used a Kage Bunshin as decoy? Well, that just argues that he planned well and attacking en masse was a calculated risk.
My point from the beginning has always been that Naruto doesn't resort to the tricks from the start, I've made it as clear as I can. Naruto's battles goes like this 99% of the time:
1. Attack the enemy directly with or without clones, the real Naruto is right there with them, he doesn't stand back and watches what his opponent will do.

2. When his first assault with clones fails he resorts to trickery, getting a shot at his opponent by distracting him with various means.

Once again, my complaint with Naruto's actual tactics and trickery have never been their quality, it's the timing I'm sick to death about. Every opponent he's ever encountered he's believed he could hit or wound with his first attack, which is always the same; run straight at them and try to hit them, that's just pure idiocy. To see Naruto repeat that over and over when he's perfectly capable of using deceit and cunning to get a clean hit is just aggravating.

He's unpredictable and capable of thinking outside of the box, he's got a cunning and trickery that's been honed for more than half of his life, and how does he put it to use? He puts off using it until he's tried running straight at the enemy, somehow surviving their counter-attack which destroys all his clones and wounds him. I'm eagerly awaiting they day he encounter's someone that's just gonna go "wtf? is he retarded?" and then kill him and his clones in one blow, too bad it's never going to happend what with his main character no jutsu. He could really use such a lesson, too bad he probably wouldn't get it anyway, considering how he does it for the entirety of part 1.
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
Okay, I just took a look at Volume 12 and the Naruto Neji fight. He didn't charge at all. He created four clones and had them attack while he stayed back and watched.

Here are the pages:
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l5/ttest...uto-12-1-04.png
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l5/ttest...uto-12-1-05.png
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l5/ttest...uto-12-1-06.png
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l5/ttest...uto-12-1-07.png
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l5/ttest...uto-12-1-08.png
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l5/ttest...uto-12-1-09.png
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l5/ttest...uto-12-1-10.png

Then he used his taijuu kage bunshin to trick Neji out of position and set him up for an attack.

As that was his fight to mark him for promotion he should have definately have made it.
 

Pirazy

Well-Known Member
ttestagr said:
Okay, I just took a look at Volume 12 and the Naruto Neji fight.? He didn't charge at all.? He created four clones and had them attack while he stayed back and watched.?

Here are the pages:
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l5/ttest...uto-12-1-04.png
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l5/ttest...uto-12-1-05.png
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l5/ttest...uto-12-1-06.png
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l5/ttest...uto-12-1-07.png
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l5/ttest...uto-12-1-08.png
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l5/ttest...uto-12-1-09.png
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l5/ttest...uto-12-1-10.png

Then he used his taijuu kage bunshin to trick Neji out of position and set him up for an attack.

As that was his fight to mark him for promotion he should have definately have made it.
True, seems like I missed the one standing in the back when i skimmed through Naruto's battlehistory :p
But it still holds true to the majority of his battles, and since he didn't continue with it in the forthcoming fights I'll assume that it was in fear of Neji's abilities, which he did a good job on remembering, didn't think he would.

As for his promotion, I'm guessing they're looking on a genins performance through the entire exam, Naruto's was very erratic with lots of peaks and lows, to have the promotion ride on one single fight seems a little careless to me, battle isn't everything. But the main reason I guess is because of Sasuke, Kishimoto had to destroy his selfconfidence in order to prepare for his betrayal, Naruto can't advance unless Sasuke also does, and if Sasuke became chuunin he wouldn't doubt his abilities so much. To have Naruto advance and not him would just drive him over the edge to soon.
 
Pirazy said:
But the main reason I guess is because of Sasuke, Kishimoto had to destroy his selfconfidence in order to prepare for his betrayal, Naruto can't advance unless Sasuke also does, and if Sasuke became chuunin he wouldn't doubt his abilities so much. To have Naruto advance and not him would just drive him over the edge to soon.
So in the end everything is the fault of that traitorous, stupid little shit who'd have been better off dead.

Nice to know.
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
He spent a month in a coma right after the exam though, and then left pretty much the night after he woke up, so that excuse for Sasuke doesn't hold up. They wouldn't have marked them on the entire test either, as the second part wasn't watched or recorded. If the prelims were considered, Shino would have made chuunin easily with how badly he outmaneuvered and beat Zaku.

The only reason to have Naruto not be promoted was that Kishimoto couldn't have the main character upstage his favorite.

Which begs for a fic idea: What would the result have been if the story didn't short Naruto in favor of Sasuke and he did make chuunin?
 
ttestagr said:
He spent a month in a coma right after the exam though, and then left pretty much the night after he woke up, so that excuse for Sasuke doesn't hold up.? They wouldn't have marked them on the entire test either, as the second part wasn't watched or recorded.? If the prelims were considered, Shino would have made chuunin easily with how badly he outmaneuvered and beat Zaku.

The only reason to have Naruto not be promoted was that Kishimoto couldn't have the main character upstage his favorite.

Which begs for a fic idea:? What would the result have been if the story didn't short Naruto in favor of Sasuke and he did make chuunin?
Hmm... You are giving me ideas for a new direction to take my fic in. Hmmmm...

...I'm tempted, but I'm going to carefully consider how to go about it. In my fic, the ones making Chuunin will likely be Shino and Kagura (that's right, Shikamaru doesn't make it :snigger: ), but I'm tempted to add Naruto, simply to screw that part up a little. :snigger:

This is the Chuunin Exams' Prelims lineup lineup as I have it now:

Prelims:

Uchiha Sasuke vs. Akado Yoroi = WINNER Sasuke (KO)
Aburame Shino vs. Abumi Zaku = WINNER Shino (KO)
Uzumaki Naruto vs. Rando Jun = WINNER Naruto (KO)
Rock Lee vs. Hanada Arisa = WINNER Arisa (KO)
Sabaku no Gaara vs. Hagiri Hatori = WINNER Gaara (Forfeit)
Yamanaka Ino vs. Haruno Sakura = WINNER Ino (Technical decision)
Yamazaki Maki vs. Akimichi Chouji = WINNER Maki (KO)
Hyuuga Neji vs. Hyuuga Hinata = WINNER Neji (Technical decision)
Moritsuna Kagura vs. Mikado Ryuu = WINNER Kagura (Technical decision)
Kankuro vs. Tsurugi Misumi = WINNER Kankuro (KO)
Nara Shikamaru vs. Tsuchi Kin = WINNER Shikamaru (KO)
Temari vs. Tenten = WINNER Temari (KO)
Kinuta Dosu vs. Yuukaku Kaldea = WINNER Dosu (KO)
Inuzuka Kiba vs. Mugetsu = WINNER Kiba (KO)
Hagiri Shizumaru vs. Yakushi Kabuto = WINNER Shizumaru (forfeit)
I don't have the lineup for the Finals yet, to be honest, since I keep changing my mind. I have a few options:

-First of all, Shizumaru will drop out of the competition. He simply isn't interested in going any further.

-Secondly, Naruto can either fight Neji or, in a 'mirror match' of sorts, Ino. My propension is for Neji.

-Alternatively, I can start the Neji/Kagura rivalry here by having them fight.

-Maki will most likely win by forfeit from either Shizumaru or one of the Sand siblings.

Any ideas? :sisi:
 
Question. Why doesn't Kabuto drop out before the prelim matches even begin? That's what he did in canon; will the option not be offered?

Also, who are "Mikado Ryuu", "Yuukaku Kaldea" and "Mugetsu"? Are they original characters you have yet to introduce? Or are they characters from a canon village who weren't given names?
 
nuclear death frog said:
Question. Why doesn't Kabuto drop out before the prelim matches even begin? That's what he did in canon; will the option not be offered?

Also, who are "Mikado Ryuu", "Yuukaku Kaldea" and "Mugetsu"? Are they original characters you have yet to introduce? Or are they characters from a canon village who weren't given names?
Kabuto is ordered by Orochimaru to gather intel on the Marsh kunoichi after the unfortunate meeting he had with Maki's fist while he was distracted trying to seal Naruto in the Forest of Death. He wasn't amused by the lack of info on them.

As for Kaldea, Ryuu and Mugetsu, they are essentially jobber OCs that fill up the Preliminaries. If you played The Bouncer, the PS2 beat 'em up by Squaresoft, you probably already figured out where I got my inspiration - Yuukaku means Orchid (Kaldea Orchid was a boss in The Bouncer), Ryuu is a play on the final boss's name (Dauragon Cross Mikado), and Mugetsu was an insane ninja serving the Mikado zaibatsu.
 
GenocideHeart said:
nuclear death frog said:
Question. Why doesn't Kabuto drop out before the prelim matches even begin? That's what he did in canon; will the option not be offered?

Also, who are "Mikado Ryuu", "Yuukaku Kaldea" and "Mugetsu"? Are they original characters you have yet to introduce? Or are they characters from a canon village who weren't given names?
Kabuto is ordered by Orochimaru to gather intel on the Marsh kunoichi after the unfortunate meeting he had with Maki's fist while he was distracted trying to seal Naruto in the Forest of Death. He wasn't amused by the lack of info on them.
:lol:

I'll enjoy reading that scene, I think.

Are the jobbers Leaf? Just curious, really.
 
Also...a much more practical question, GH: how does your Yamazaki clan manage to perpetuate itself? If their bodies are so deadly because of toxins and disease (the curse in action) how do they have sex? And how do fetuses survive to birth? Does the curse set in only some time after the new child is born, and it somehow goes into dormancy while a Yamazaki mama is pregnant?
 

Mighty Bob

Well-Known Member
Even if Main chara/OC is kinda bad form I still like the idea of Naruto/Maki :p Super healing FTW!

Not to get the arguement started again, but I've thought for awhile now that Naruto had to be pretty much self taught on everything. Granted, his life before the very start of the manga is pretty much a total blank, other than we know he's been hated his whole life and been ignored by those around him lots. I don't think he was chased by huge angry mobs on a daily basis, all of them screaming 'Demon' this and 'Monster' that; but he likely did have several less than pleasant encounters during his growing years. The fic Trial and Error by Sangelide paints a good picture, IMO, of how Naruto might have turned out if he had guidance. Pity the author decided to blend it into canon towards the end.

For the final fights I like the idea of starting Neji and Kagura's rivalry during the exam. And it'll be fun to see Ino vs Naruto; who would win and what training will they have done by that point? Seems like fun all around.
 
nuclear death frog said:
Also...a much more practical question, GH: how does your Yamazaki clan manage to perpetuate itself? If their bodies are so deadly because of toxins and disease (the curse in action) how do they have sex? And how do fetuses survive to birth? Does the curse set in only some time after the new child is born, and it somehow goes into dormancy while a Yamazaki mama is pregnant?
The Yamazaki's is a cursed bloodline, not a curse proper. That said, most Yamazaki do not have sex at all. Artificial insemination is the usual method of perpetuating the clan, and fertilized eggs all develop a temporary, but extremely powerful immumity to any toxic substance in the mother's bloodstream and body.That immunity slowly disappears after birth, and eventually the cursed bloodline fully sets in.

Attempts by the Yamazaki to make the immunity permanent all failed so far.
 
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