Nanoha Time Loops
- Thread starter Prince Charon
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As it was said before, the point is, the cast from Nanoha seem to have no limitations on their magic without a use of a device, except perhaps their highest order attacks (eg. Starlight Breaker). Compared to the senshi who without their transformations have no special abilities with the exception of HotaruÆs minor healing abilities I believe. Therefore the cast of Nanoha canÆt be easily deprived of their abilities, however the same can`t be said of the senshi who require their pens to transform.
I`d also like to point out that in two of the three examples you gave, the characters seem to be more like the Nanoha cast then the senshi. Granted I`m not really a comic book fan so I canÆt be sure, but it seems to me that it would be much easier to remove a ring from someoneÆs finger then it would be to remove a yellow sun or a connection to the Speed Force thus depriving them of their powers.
I`d think so, considering that she was shown to be able to block two attacks from different directions at the same time from a high level mage, and seemed to take next to no damage from it while untransformed.
However I think that the question of whether or not she can block senshi level attacks untransformed doesn't really matter. Nanoha is shown to be able to transform in an instant so the whole argument about whether or not she can block it untransformed is really null. I mean for the senshi to be able to hit Nanoha before she could transform, in my opinion they would need to be pretty much touching her to begin with.
I`d also like to point out that in two of the three examples you gave, the characters seem to be more like the Nanoha cast then the senshi. Granted I`m not really a comic book fan so I canÆt be sure, but it seems to me that it would be much easier to remove a ring from someoneÆs finger then it would be to remove a yellow sun or a connection to the Speed Force thus depriving them of their powers.
I`d think so, considering that she was shown to be able to block two attacks from different directions at the same time from a high level mage, and seemed to take next to no damage from it while untransformed.
However I think that the question of whether or not she can block senshi level attacks untransformed doesn't really matter. Nanoha is shown to be able to transform in an instant so the whole argument about whether or not she can block it untransformed is really null. I mean for the senshi to be able to hit Nanoha before she could transform, in my opinion they would need to be pretty much touching her to begin with.
And while it is true that the length of the Senshi transformation sequence is often exaggerated, the fact remain that their attacks are far from instantaneous.
Not to mention that Nanoha and Fate are know to be able to fly past Mach 1. That's the kind of speed that the Senshi would NEVER be able to match.
The small attack they can easily avoid while the bigger, longer one they can stop with the like of the Axel Shooter or the Photon Lancer, which, I'll like to point out, are pretty powerful for "basic" attacks already.
With Axel Shooter being a group of eight homing missiles and Photon Lancer being the magical equivalent of an automatic weapon. Bardiche can even go "Full Auto" with it.
Not to mention that Nanoha and Fate are know to be able to fly past Mach 1. That's the kind of speed that the Senshi would NEVER be able to match.
The small attack they can easily avoid while the bigger, longer one they can stop with the like of the Axel Shooter or the Photon Lancer, which, I'll like to point out, are pretty powerful for "basic" attacks already.
With Axel Shooter being a group of eight homing missiles and Photon Lancer being the magical equivalent of an automatic weapon. Bardiche can even go "Full Auto" with it.
:headbanger: It seems that light wanderer, and Deathwings are trying to argue characters they've either never read about or only seen the anime version of.
Attacks far from instantaneous? Only for dramatic perspective; real time, those attacks are pulled off faster than most people can think.
Cannot match Mach 1? Try faster than light. And no, I'm not talking about teleportation, I'm talking about physically moving faster than light.
Stop the "big attacks" with Photon Lancer or Axel Shooter? Not when said attacks have the range of interstellar space and the power to obliterate galaxies. We're talking about something that makes the Arc En Ciel look like a peashooter by comparison; and these aren't always enough to take down the Senshi either.
Stick to Rule of Funny guys. It's funnier when you just accept that the fun is based on the memes and not canon. It's funnier when Nanoha is yandere even if she's actually not. It's funnier when you can watch a movie and eat dinner before a Senshi transformation is over even if they actually don't take that long. It's funny to pretend that Senshi's physical attacks don't do much damage even though they can accidentally launch themselves into space with a single kick and it's funny to pretend that Nanoha and company aren't constricted by limiters and damaging magical feedback/starvation when they use too much.
It's only when you take things like Loop threads as a serious depiction of canon that things begin to get not fun. Believe me, I learned that the hard way.
Attacks far from instantaneous? Only for dramatic perspective; real time, those attacks are pulled off faster than most people can think.
Cannot match Mach 1? Try faster than light. And no, I'm not talking about teleportation, I'm talking about physically moving faster than light.
Stop the "big attacks" with Photon Lancer or Axel Shooter? Not when said attacks have the range of interstellar space and the power to obliterate galaxies. We're talking about something that makes the Arc En Ciel look like a peashooter by comparison; and these aren't always enough to take down the Senshi either.
Stick to Rule of Funny guys. It's funnier when you just accept that the fun is based on the memes and not canon. It's funnier when Nanoha is yandere even if she's actually not. It's funnier when you can watch a movie and eat dinner before a Senshi transformation is over even if they actually don't take that long. It's funny to pretend that Senshi's physical attacks don't do much damage even though they can accidentally launch themselves into space with a single kick and it's funny to pretend that Nanoha and company aren't constricted by limiters and damaging magical feedback/starvation when they use too much.
It's only when you take things like Loop threads as a serious depiction of canon that things begin to get not fun. Believe me, I learned that the hard way.
It is and it does.
It's crossed over with DB on a stupidly stupid level that, if one counts by sheer number alone, would totally eclipse every other fandom.
Sailor Moon/DB was a category by itself on FF.Net even before the "no NC-17 stories" rule was implemented. Even now it has the highest number of stories among the cross-over categories.
And that's not even getting into the porn. Sailor Moon/DB hentai is a gateway icon for anime porn and even has an hour-long OAV.
It's crossed over with DB on a stupidly stupid level that, if one counts by sheer number alone, would totally eclipse every other fandom.
Sailor Moon/DB was a category by itself on FF.Net even before the "no NC-17 stories" rule was implemented. Even now it has the highest number of stories among the cross-over categories.
And that's not even getting into the porn. Sailor Moon/DB hentai is a gateway icon for anime porn and even has an hour-long OAV.
That's what I'm thinking too.
Because, damn, even the Flash, you know, the guy who's CONNECTED to the Speed Force, the FASTEST character EVER, can't go the speed of light very easily or often.
And people lambaste DC and Marvel comics for making characters too over-powered.
That's probably why I don't get into Mai-Hime, Claymore or any series like that... Just... BLEAH!
Dues Ex Machina just isn't fun.
Because, damn, even the Flash, you know, the guy who's CONNECTED to the Speed Force, the FASTEST character EVER, can't go the speed of light very easily or often.
And people lambaste DC and Marvel comics for making characters too over-powered.
That's probably why I don't get into Mai-Hime, Claymore or any series like that... Just... BLEAH!
Dues Ex Machina just isn't fun.
I'm going by the manga. Primarily because;
1. The manga came first,
2. The manga author has practically disowned the anime,
3. There is very little one can do to match the anime and the manga. We're talking complete AU here.
If you want to base your Sailor Moon canon on the anime, go ahead. Considering your record and self-confessed attitude towards other people, you'll probably handle the fallout better than anyone else.
*Shiakou gets into bunker just in case.*
Sorry if you don't like it but that's just how it is. Sailor Moon is like TTGL in that you can pull anything out of your ass as long as you have enough conviction and willpower.
If it's any consolation, I think the Nanohaverse has better plot and characterization.
1. The manga came first,
2. The manga author has practically disowned the anime,
3. There is very little one can do to match the anime and the manga. We're talking complete AU here.
If you want to base your Sailor Moon canon on the anime, go ahead. Considering your record and self-confessed attitude towards other people, you'll probably handle the fallout better than anyone else.
*Shiakou gets into bunker just in case.*
Sorry if you don't like it but that's just how it is. Sailor Moon is like TTGL in that you can pull anything out of your ass as long as you have enough conviction and willpower.
If it's any consolation, I think the Nanohaverse has better plot and characterization.
Because it got serious. ^_^
Also, I don't think the senshi attacks are that powerful as Ar en Ciel... at least not until you get to the last arc of the Sailor Moon manga.
I don't believe it was ever shown that Nanoha is able to do high powered attacks without her device, which she has with her all the time.. in effect.
And Nanoha had to train up hard on a daily basis to even use her attacks outside of paired up with her devices.
Also... I think Nanoha's setting is a bit wonky in that you get the familiars who are damn powerful; Arf and so on... who can do funky things without devices.
Also... I think it comes down to genre. Nanoha is rather shonen, while Sailor Moon seems more a shoujo version of sentai.
But will they survive the first volley? Because that's what it comes down to. The side that wins in such things is usually the one who fires first with a hard enough attack... while being withstand the enemy fire... or is fast enough to fire first, literally.
You mean like how without their mage cores, Fate and Nanoha are just normal humans? Sure... I can go with that if you claim that being without their Starseeds, a senshi is just a human.
Because that's what you're saying in effect.
I believe you... it's just that the senshi have also been shown to have quick transformations as well... it's just that for fanservice purposes they end up flashing their full transformation usually every episode; which helps in terms of animation as the transformation is just reused. -_-
Only up to a certain degree... ie. pass a certain point, those barriers break. The question lies in if senshi attacks can overpower the barriers in question.
What is this? Bleach or DragonballZ/GT/Whatever the fuck?
At the heart of it, Nanoha and Fate STILL have VERY squishy -HUMAN- bodies behind their barrier jackets, which they get when they transform.
*shrugs*
I can't say much about that... but those two are shown to be ruthless when necessary. ie. shoot first, talk later. If need be, they're willing to sacrifice lives to obtain mission objectives.
If you have a target that isn't moving? Shoot it.
That seems quite likely as well...
The problem is in the clips I showed... Those were the 'full' transformation sequence for those lot.
Yeah... Haruka, Michiru, Setsuna and Hotaru managed to get into their contracts that they don't do massive fanservice in their transformations unlike the others... B)
Also, I don't think the senshi attacks are that powerful as Ar en Ciel... at least not until you get to the last arc of the Sailor Moon manga.
I don't believe it was ever shown that Nanoha is able to do high powered attacks without her device, which she has with her all the time.. in effect.
And Nanoha had to train up hard on a daily basis to even use her attacks outside of paired up with her devices.
Also... I think Nanoha's setting is a bit wonky in that you get the familiars who are damn powerful; Arf and so on... who can do funky things without devices.
Also... I think it comes down to genre. Nanoha is rather shonen, while Sailor Moon seems more a shoujo version of sentai.
But will they survive the first volley? Because that's what it comes down to. The side that wins in such things is usually the one who fires first with a hard enough attack... while being withstand the enemy fire... or is fast enough to fire first, literally.
You mean like how without their mage cores, Fate and Nanoha are just normal humans? Sure... I can go with that if you claim that being without their Starseeds, a senshi is just a human.
Because that's what you're saying in effect.
I believe you... it's just that the senshi have also been shown to have quick transformations as well... it's just that for fanservice purposes they end up flashing their full transformation usually every episode; which helps in terms of animation as the transformation is just reused. -_-
Only up to a certain degree... ie. pass a certain point, those barriers break. The question lies in if senshi attacks can overpower the barriers in question.
What is this? Bleach or DragonballZ/GT/Whatever the fuck?
At the heart of it, Nanoha and Fate STILL have VERY squishy -HUMAN- bodies behind their barrier jackets, which they get when they transform.
*shrugs*
I can't say much about that... but those two are shown to be ruthless when necessary. ie. shoot first, talk later. If need be, they're willing to sacrifice lives to obtain mission objectives.
If you have a target that isn't moving? Shoot it.
That seems quite likely as well...
The problem is in the clips I showed... Those were the 'full' transformation sequence for those lot.
Yeah... Haruka, Michiru, Setsuna and Hotaru managed to get into their contracts that they don't do massive fanservice in their transformations unlike the others... B)
I don't suppose you would mind actually providing proof to support your argument before backing out? Because while I admit that I'm no expert on Nanoha, I do know a bit about arguments, and generally, thats how they are done.
It's also more mature then trying to walk away, claiming your right despite the large amounts of proof otherwise.
Edit: I mean, hey, even in the anime, Sailor Moon was pretty impressive. Sailor Moon Classic, Final Battle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2V7QjzeJro&feature=related
Check out that blast.
It's also more mature then trying to walk away, claiming your right despite the large amounts of proof otherwise.
Edit: I mean, hey, even in the anime, Sailor Moon was pretty impressive. Sailor Moon Classic, Final Battle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2V7QjzeJro&feature=related
Check out that blast.
D
Manga senshi are a lot faster than their anime counterparts but they never moved faster than light as far as I know. That's entering Saint Seiya Power Levels. Though with the physical strength their henshins give them they should be pretty damn fast. Usagi entered space in a matter of minutes with one misplaced kick in the very first arc.
As for henshins, the manga pretty much had a single pose or pull out their item and they would be transformed in the next panel. The Henshins are pure fan service. It was instantaneous (and changed their eye and hair colors so the paper-thin disguise jokes don't apply) mangawise.
Usagi had the title of strongest soldier in the entire galaxy and she actually revived it. Not to mention the senshi and villains had city wide techniques since the first arc. Kunzite froze Tokyo and Zoicite killed nearly all of Tokyo until Usagi revived them.
Though I must admit the Inner, Neptune and Haruka are quite outclassed compared to the Future and alien senshi during Stars. The Eternal Upgrade fixed that and pushed them to Usagi's level or at least as strong as the alien senshi.
My favorite moment has to be the Final S Battle when Usagi drives through to get to Pharaoh 90 to help Saturn.
Sailor Moon S Final Battle
Though this does show her character the best. Stars Final Battle It has a naked Usagi and Galaxia but with anime anatomy in full effect.
Edit:
Just a Pet peeve a youma under no circumstances would be fighting a Outer Senshi. They'd be fighting Lemures, Daimons or Phages. Metallia is long dead and so are her servants. Youma are pathetic compared to the rest.
As for henshins, the manga pretty much had a single pose or pull out their item and they would be transformed in the next panel. The Henshins are pure fan service. It was instantaneous (and changed their eye and hair colors so the paper-thin disguise jokes don't apply) mangawise.
Usagi had the title of strongest soldier in the entire galaxy and she actually revived it. Not to mention the senshi and villains had city wide techniques since the first arc. Kunzite froze Tokyo and Zoicite killed nearly all of Tokyo until Usagi revived them.
Though I must admit the Inner, Neptune and Haruka are quite outclassed compared to the Future and alien senshi during Stars. The Eternal Upgrade fixed that and pushed them to Usagi's level or at least as strong as the alien senshi.
My favorite moment has to be the Final S Battle when Usagi drives through to get to Pharaoh 90 to help Saturn.
Sailor Moon S Final Battle
Though this does show her character the best. Stars Final Battle It has a naked Usagi and Galaxia but with anime anatomy in full effect.
Edit:
Just a Pet peeve a youma under no circumstances would be fighting a Outer Senshi. They'd be fighting Lemures, Daimons or Phages. Metallia is long dead and so are her servants. Youma are pathetic compared to the rest.
It's a lot easier to swallow the mass-rezzing and other shenanigans that Sailor Moon gets up to when you realize that she's an incarnate demigodess, specifically the daughter of the goddess Selene. The only reason she doesn't curbstomp every opponent she meets immediately is because she's either unaware of this fact, facing divinity-level opposition, or simply chooses not to.
I can be fair about that.
I will.
And, when I was 14, I was a lot like that... So, I'll be fair, if I was a magical person at age 14 and the person I loved just got kidnapped, i would be like "Where is she?! Give her back!"
Nanoha's freakishly mature for her age at age 9...
"Why are you attacking..."
"Divine..."
"Me?"
"Buster." *Boom*
At least that's what she did to Vita... I mean, the first season lasted maybe a month at most?
I don't recall her screaming during fights (other than her attacks) after the 3rd episode at all.
I will.
And, when I was 14, I was a lot like that... So, I'll be fair, if I was a magical person at age 14 and the person I loved just got kidnapped, i would be like "Where is she?! Give her back!"
Nanoha's freakishly mature for her age at age 9...
"Why are you attacking..."
"Divine..."
"Me?"
"Buster." *Boom*
At least that's what she did to Vita... I mean, the first season lasted maybe a month at most?
I don't recall her screaming during fights (other than her attacks) after the 3rd episode at all.