Bleach New Bleach Filler Arc

[Patrick_Gleason]

I can't attack what you don't have.

Bullshit. Here:

When you show me Ichigo defeating a Captain-class enemy with Bankai alone, or without outside help (And yes, other intelligence stopping his blood flow and giving him strength counts as outside help) I will agree with you that he can topple Senbonzakura alone. Until then...

You could simply show me this, instead of trying to ignore the discussion saying that I don't like Ichigo.

He beat Zaraki with Shikai, actually.

Did he now? For one, that was a "moral" victory. Zaraki was the one standing in the end. Zaraki didn't use Kendo. Besides, if not for Zangetsu stopping his blood flow ("outside interference") Ichigo would be dead.

He beat Byakuya with Bankai, although Hichigo interfered with that particular fight.

"Outside interference" again. If you read since the beginning, you'll see that this began as if whether or not Ichigo could beat Senbonzakura through Bankai alone. He can't. He couldn't defeat Byakuya through Bankai alone. He was losing, and would be dead if not for Hichigo's timely interference. Like all his significant fights, by the way.

And the worse is, after Hichigo does his dirty work, Ichigo recovers conscience easily, by himself, like nothing ever happened, without any consequences. Hell, even in other manga the MC needs other's help to regain consciousness.

 

[trevelyan1983]

That's why I say you don't have a point, dood. You define powers that are innate to Ichigo as being outside help.

Hichigo, to a certain extent, could be construed as outside help. Zangetsu, on the other hand, cannot be. By his very definition as a Zanpakuto, and by his every statement within the manga, he is Ichigo's power. They're inseperable, and have no clear delineation or demarcation between them.

You might has well have asked for evidence of Ichigo defeating a Captain in Bankai while not using Zangetsu at all.

 

[~NGD OMEGA~]

While I'd more or less agree with that, end result is he still pretty much lost both fights, even factoring in said 'outside help'. :mellow:

Though if the notion is Ichigo wins with powers he actually is capable of controlling/pulling off himself, without requiring a secondary source's direct aid in doing so, yeah, that's still entirely valid. Stopping the blood flow was WTF, and frankly only gets a pass because both Hitsugaya and Kenpachi pretty much have pulled off similar things before, and the logic is somewhat sound. Stupid, but sound. Byakuya too, maybe, if I could see past the blasted cloak... >>

 

[Patrick_Gleason]

You define powers that are innate to Ichigo as being outside help.

Because they are. Let me put it this way, Zangetsu is a separate conscience. When Zangetsu speaks, it isn't Ichigo speaking. It's Zangetsu. When Zangetsu asked for Hichigo's help, it wasn't Ichigo. It was Zangetsu. While he's part of Ichigo's power, he has some degree of independence. Hence, when he stopped Ichigo's blood flow without the latter's instruction or plead, it was outside help. If Ichigo was left to his own devices, he would be dead there. If Ichigo had stopped his blood flow by his own volition, I would give you that he "defeated" Zaraki alone. Alas, he didn't. It was an independent conscience who did.

Hichigo is almost the same thing, except that he is actively antagonizing Ichigo.

And If I'm not mistaken, later, Hanatarou discovered that Ichigo's mask had appeared and saved him from Zaraki's strikes.

 

[Swordsmanofshadow18]

Zaraki technically won by virtue of Ichigo falling down first. Byakuya also won by virtue of being the only one of the two able to walk away (And subsequently came back later to save Rukia with little trouble). And that's ignoring the hollow jacking in Byakuya when he would have died right there all alone, and that WTF thing he pulled against Zaraki that the hollow was technically involved with. Ichigo 'won' by virtue of ideals and being able to cut their swords, but had either pressed the issue at that point he would have died. However it goes without saying that in both cases Ichigo held his own there to the point in which it could easily have gone either way, particularly if he actually fought intelligently and were able to use Getsuuga all through both fights. Issue is that lately he's been doing poorly in comparison to, well, all of them really. Extremely so, even factoring in the masked form.

While I agree with most of what you said, if you want to get technical, Ichigo could have won his final battle with Byakuya DEFINITIVELY had he not stayed his blade the moment after he went Bankai for the first time. He had Byakuya dead to rights, but instead choose to back away after he had his katana at his enemy's throat. Had he not held back, he could have pushed his blade into Byakuya's throat and out the back end of his skull if he so wished. Byakuya was caught completely off guard, so the chances of counterattack would have been minuscule.

It would make an interesting fic, where Ichigo is surprised by his own speed and accidentally kills Byakuya as a result. Would certainly change his and Rukia's relationship.

 

[~NGD OMEGA~]

Oh yeah. That's less greater strength and more surprising with Uber Speed because, for once in a long line of such annoying scenes, someone didn't explain their ability in great detail before using it, which is why after the genre shift I say that fight is probably the best in the series. But yeah, I agree with that much. Byakuya more or less evens it out though once he goes second stage prior to Hichigo interrupting, and by the end he's the one still able to stand. I usually count it as a loss for him anyway because by the end Byakuya wins 2/3 times during a more or less definitive end. But I do agree that if Ichigo pressed the matter he probably would have won by the start, simply because he had the element of surprise on his side.

Though had Byakuya not let him go through that ridiculously long chargeup to bankai and instead followed up with more combos from his own before that completed, one could argue it would be over before it began, but this is SHONEN. Logic be damned.

 

[zeebee1]

If Zangetsu is a seperate power then the question is can Ichigo beat a captain without Zangetsu when the captain doesn't have their swod, or a hollow that only has one soul.

 

[grant]

It's to be expected, but I'm a bit irritated that Byakuya will undoubtedly be welcomed back with open arms. Unless there's a vague mention in the next few episodes he apparently didn't see a need to tell anyone what Muramasa's real goal was, insisted on dealing with it himself when it took two high powered Shinigami the first time, and didn't seem to think of things like stopping Muramasa from releasing the guy in the first place. Aren't captains supposed to be responsible for their divisions? If he wanted to do this he shouldn't have taken a job leading other people in the first place.

 

[zeebee1]

Pride is a common theme in Bleach. The unstated part of it is that pride makes you do stupid things that either gets you killed, nearly kills someone you care about, or nearly ends several worlds.

 

[JiigarGhen]

Pride is a common theme in Bleach. The unstated part of it is that pride makes you do stupid things that either gets you killed, nearly kills someone you care about, or nearly ends several worlds.

Or sometimes all three at the same time!

 

[zeebee1]

Ukitake: Let's have Kaien kill himself so I don't have to pay his therapy bills.

 

[Patrick_Gleason]

If Zangetsu is a seperate power then the question is can Ichigo beat a captain without Zangetsu when the captain doesn't have their swod, or a hollow that only has one soul.

Again, no problem if it's Ichigo using Zangetsu's power. But when Zangetsu stopped his blood flow, it was just Zangetsu there. Ichigo didn't do that consciously. Ergo, it's not his merit.

 

[zeebee1]

Apparently Byakuya doesn't know the difference between pride and treason.

 

[grant]

Moving past my dislike of Bleach-logic in general...new episode. I'm really unsure now. Am I just someone who dislikes Byakuya in general and I look for excuses to criticize him or are his actions an accepted cultural thing, like Hinamori in Japan?

 

[nick012000]

Whee! Byakuya vs Kouga: awesome fight. One of the better ones, I think.

Also, Hollow!Kouga in the preview for next week looks awesome. Or Hollow!Muramasa, whichever one it is.

 

[aledeth]

Whee! Byakuya vs Kouga: awesome fight. One of the better ones, I think.

Also, Hollow!Kouga in the preview for next week looks awesome. Or Hollow!Muramasa, whichever one it is.

Up until Kouga revealed his 'lol Aizen' powers it was pretty fun to watch.

And I'm betting on it being Muramasa. Kouga doesn't have the whole Geass motif going for him.

 

[nick012000]

Whee! Byakuya vs Kouga: awesome fight. One of the better ones, I think.

Also, Hollow!Kouga in the preview for next week looks awesome. Or Hollow!Muramasa, whichever one it is.

Up until Kouga revealed his 'lol Aizen' powers it was pretty fun to watch.

And I'm betting on it being Muramasa. Kouga doesn't have the whole Geass motif going for him.

Muramasa is Kouga's powers; one would think that if Muramasa went Hollow, odds are Kouga's going to go Hollow as well unless he can defeat him like Ichigo defeated Hollow Zangetsu. Given how Kouga seems to be intent on screwing up regarding their relationship, though, I wouldn't bet on that happening.

The Aizen powers were just sort of out of nowhere though, I agree. I think Kouga's obviously wrong about where they come from though; a shinigami's powers are his Zanpakuto's, and vice versa.

 

[adevilinthedark]

That was an epic fight. Well, until Kouga went Aizen, at which point it only became slightly awesome.

I wonder why his Kido was so different from what they're pulling nowadays?

 

[nick012000]

That was an epic fight. Well, until Kouga went Aizen, at which point it only became slightly awesome.

I wonder why his Kido was so different from what they're pulling nowadays?

Maybe they're just spells noone else has used, and he's good enough to skip the number for them like Urahara did for his gate opening kidou spells. There's supposed to be 99 levels of them, you know.

 

[adevilinthedark]

That was an epic fight. Well, until Kouga went Aizen, at which point it only became slightly awesome.

I wonder why his Kido was so different from what they're pulling nowadays?

Maybe they're just spells noone else has used, and he's good enough to skip the number for them like Urahara did for his gate opening kidou spells. There's supposed to be 99 levels of them, you know.

That probably it. I just wanted a second opinion.

 

[adevilinthedark]

What the fuck?

No....seriously....what the fuck did I just see?

That came out of fucking nowhere. THIS FILLER MAKES NO SENSE ANYMORE! I'm not certain if it ever made sense anymore!!!
What was that?
I don't even-

 

[nick012000]

It seems fairly straight-forward to me. Muramasa lost control of the Zanpakuto when he went Hollow.

 

[zeebee1]

It gets worse. The next season either deals with Byakuya's betrayal or is a new filler arc. Thought that could just be the first couple of episodes.

 

[~NGD OMEGA~]

Kinda stopped watching for a bit, but the info from various sources is it's another filler. Apparently like the natural enemy of Shinigami is Hollows, the enemy of Zanpakuto are something called 'Beast Swords' (No relation to Arrancar from what I can tell) which is all kinds of retarded.

 

[~NGD OMEGA~]

Don't know why, but catching up with the ones I missed. Kouga is beaten damn bad with the stupid stick too. Not just his 'plan' by which I mean his BAWing and killing everyone just cuz for no adequately explained reason, but he neglects to take that stupid thing off his face for, wait for it, no adequately explained reason. I mean WTF?

Similarly who the hell are the dudes in the random white cloaks modeled after captain's cloaks? And why are they sending people after this guy, much less non-captains? I mean granted it's bad news if a captain's sword gets taken in, but sending in people clearly too weak to do crap without their swords anyway is plain stupid. Gah, what the hell is wrong with the writing staff here, this is almost bad even for Bleach standards at this point.