Sailor Moon Pet Peeves

[the DragonBard]

Takeuchi Naoko, the mangaka, has actually gone on record as saying she hates the series.

Yep, just another prime example of how the anime made things worse.

Which is rather funny.
With the exception of series whose anime was the original and the manga is the second (Tenchi Muyo specifically) most people are on the 'manga is canon, ignore the anime' bandwagon.

However, they tend to ignore the manga in the case of Sailor Moon, and base everything on the anime. Rather stupid if you ask me.

Though, Takeuchi Naoko said in the manga itself, that she enjoyed the anime. So, not sure if she changed her mind, lied, or what.

 

[Kayeich]

Since Crystal Tokyo "fanon=canon" was brought up, I'll add one often related one: pet peeve is manipulative Pluto with the "TV of Time" instead of the "Gates of Time". For god's sake. The woman's job is to stop time travellers from abusing things, not suddenly gain the ability out of someone's ass to watch someone's entire life in fast forward and then be cold enough to kill a good person or whatever. It's total and utter -bullshit-, even beyond that of Crystal Tokyo. Manipulative Pluto is -fail-. It's not a horribly bad plot device once in a while, if just plain cliched, but dammit, fanon!=canon.

A few general comments. As a series that spans 100+ episodes, and required the use of filler material, as well as changing much of the material from the manga, are you surprised that there are plot holes in the anime? This happens with any series that goes on for long enough, and if it deviates or starts to add filler material, it's even more likely to screw something up.

Also, the only case where I tend to see "manga = canon, anime is bullshit" stuff tends to be Ranma. And people still base their fics on the anime. Actually, almost all the time, I see that the anime is prefered if the anime covers more material than the manga, even with filler. If they don't, people will still use the personalities from there or use interpretations from there.

The reason is simple. Characters have more time to get fleshed out in some fashion. While yeah, sometimes people are lazy and they are reduced to mere stereotypes by the voice actors and directors, people like to see the flawed civilian that has some sort of superpower. It's the Peter Parker Syndrome. If the character shows a certain amount of personality that doesn't quite show up in the manga, people latch onto it.

And being able to hear how a line is said has a strong effect in how a person comes across that you can't necessarily get across in a written format unless you are very good with showing that body language in the manga.

As for myself, I tend to use whichever material I'm more familiar with. If I'm familiar with both, I'll use whichever one I deemed superior storytelling. If I really liked something from the other, I'll borrow it if it doesn't contradict anything else.

I'm hardly the only person that does this.

 

[Drawde]

As far as manga=canon, I usually go by which came first. With Ranma, the manga came first, so I go by that for canon. With Onegai Teacher, I believe the anime came first, so that's the one I'd go by. It doesn't matter which is better, but which is the original. Anything after that, even if by the same publisher, is pretty much the same as fanfiction. Of course, you can go by canon for the later versions.

 

[Alzrius]

I wanted to mention Dies Gaudii as being pretty much the only website I trust regarding finding canon facts about Sailor Moon online. The precision and rigor this guy uses in his articles is so strict it's almost scary. I love it.

 

[Fatuous One]

I wanted to mention Dies Gaudii as being pretty much the only website I trust regarding finding canon facts about Sailor Moon online. The precision and rigor this guy uses in his articles is so strict it's almost scary. I love it.

AND s/he uses Hotaru as his/her mascot. Awesome.

*Bookmark'd*

 

[ToastedPine]

Just to clear things up:

http://www.wikimoon.org/index.php?title=Azabu-Juuban

 

[Deleted member 5249]

My pet peeve of the Sailor Moon fandom is the amount of Seiya bashing. Seiya liked Usagi but he never tried to break her and Mamoru up. But he always ends up as the villain.

 

[pyu]

Well, it doesn't help that Seiya was portrayed the way she was in the anime. You must miss the Mamoru-bashing as well, not to mention the Chibiusa-bashing and Rei-bashing and... you get the idea.

I dislike the betrayal fics, as simply the entire premise has no basis nor ground to stand upon.

Dystopic Crystal Tokyo might be fun when the concept was first introduced, but after a while I got somewhat tired of it. The fanfic authors must be American, since only Americans hate their government so much that all of their leaders must either be incompetent fools or Machiavellian devils.

Another one, utopian!Crystal Tokyo. Why? Why do fanfic authors have an urge to describe Crystal Tokyo as a utopia where everybody sings Mary Poppins songs and dance to the sound of music? Why can't it be a normal city with crystal buildings?

Valley-Girl!Usagi. Crybaby!Usagi. Even after Sailor Galaxia. Please, give the girl some credit. She beat back several demonic invasions, saved the world several times and managed to redeem an enemy that had supposedly wiped out all life in the galaxy. Go read the manga or something to dispel the ugly stereotype that the anime created around her.

And yes, the ultimate literary device - Omnipresent&Machiavelli!Pluto. I, for one, would give a right arm to see a fanfic that does not portray Sailor Pluto as a person who arranges for Crystal Tokyo to come into being, plotting the death of five billion people by bringing on the Silence or the Great Freeze or the Second Ice Age.

 

[Deleted member 5249]

Well, it doesn't help that Seiya was portrayed the way she was in the anime. You must miss the Mamoru-bashing as well, not to mention the Chibiusa-bashing and Rei-bashing and... you get the idea.

I do not care for Mamo-Baka, I despise the spore in both versions and I only like Mars manga wise because of her vow of chastity.

If it was a perfect world, Seiya would have been 100% male married Usagi and had Chibi-Chibi.

 

[grant]

The fanfic authors must be American, since only Americans hate their government so much that all of their leaders must either be incompetent fools or Machiavellian devils.

Anti-American much? You don't pay much attention to alot of the world, do you? Alan Moore wrote V for Vendetta while living in England, Koshun Takami wrote Battle Royale while living in Japan (where I believe he still lives), the massively damaging riots in France are attributed partially to a dislike of injustices in the nation, although they normally aren't given much attention there are protests in Iraq over one issue or another, and only a week or two ago citizens in Naples were clashing with police over the huge amounts of garbage in the city.

I think you'll find that MANY people in a nation dislike at least some part of it.

 

[Darmani]

Okay the number one problem with pluto while Crystal Tokyo was DYING she stood at the gates.


And the very next season proved she wasn't stuck there (along with her knowing the future and her barest of apologies for kicking Sailor Moon's ass you have to seriously believe she's a manipulative liar as she suppled ChibiUsa with the means to steal the Crystal and refused to appear BEFORE said girl got sick and let her play target practice for the black moon family. So uhm malevolent superadvanced transdimensional spaceship can pass her by into the past to hunt the daughter of the woman she ostenibly works for but she can break out a convenient "Time Stop" just incase the outers idiotically crash their heliocopter trying to "sneak" into an enemy base. Oh she apparently knew who held the heart treasures the whole damned time too.

Look Machiavelli Pluto at least grants her agency and makes her less reliable a plot device for the good guys as is she is a horrible walking Deus Ex Machina/CanonSue that you have to blithely IGNORE or it all comes down.

 

[Deleted member 5249]

Okay the number one problem with pluto while Crystal Tokyo was DYING she stood at the gates.


And the very next season proved she wasn't stuck there (along with her knowing the future and her barest of apologies for kicking Sailor Moon's ass you have to seriously believe she's a manipulative liar as she suppled ChibiUsa with the means to steal the Crystal and refused to appear BEFORE said girl got sick and let her play target practice for the black moon family.á So uhm malevolent superadvanced transdimensional spaceship can pass her by into the past to hunt the daughter of the woman she ostenibly works for but she can break out a convenient "Time Stop" just incase the outers idiotically crash their heliocopter trying to "sneak" into an enemy base.á Oh she apparently knew who held the heart treasures the whole damned time too.

Look Machiavelli Pluto at least grants her agency and makes her less reliable a plot device for the good guys as is she is a horrible walking Deus Ex Machina/CanonSue that you have to blithely IGNORE or it all comes down.

Well I blame adaptation decay. Pluto in the manga wasn't allowed to leave the gates (She didn't even leave for the destruction of the Silver Millenium) until she died trying to reach Chibi-Usa while she was Black Lady. Neo-Queen Serenity revived her. The anime since they excluded that made everything needlessly complicated.

Pet peeves:

1)All senshi appearing at once. The senshi have only been together once during a whole fight and that was Nehellenia. During S Pluto died before Saturn appeared. The inners and outers are constantly seperated and the outers tend to have their own lives. Yet for a random youma they all assemble? That's stupid and lazy of authors.

2) Lack of using characters outside the Solar System senshi. I personally dislike the inners in general and would much rather see a story about Kinmoku, Guardian Cosmos, Sailor Chaos, Sailor Cosmos, Channel, Guccici, Galaxia, the Sailor Quartet and the Anima-mates.

3) Usagi's characterization. Her best trait is that she's incredibly sensitive to people's feeling and loves everybody to the point where she doesn't want to hurt anyone. Yet people characterize her as some insensitive clod.

4) People using both incompatible parts of both universes. I don't mind if people borrow things from the manga or anime like changing the Starlights gender in a rather manga based fic. What bothers me is mentioning Sailor Crystals and Starseeds together or giving Mamoru the golden crystal in a anime inspired story.

5) Fanon! Crystal Tokyo. Their is no reason at all to believe the Black Moon Clan when they follow Death Phantom, a incarnation of Chaos whose power is brainwashing and altering memories. Their opinions should be ignored.

6) Evil!Ginzuishou! The Ginzuishou draws its power from a person's heart. Usagi can't actually use it for anything but pure reasons without losing her life. Queen Serenity died because her heart was weak from grieving for her daughter (a detail I'm really annoyed the anime didn't include). It and Usagi are part of the Guardian Cosmos, the very antithesis of Chaos. It is about as far away from evil as you can get.

 

[Xon]

It and Usagi are part of the Guardian Cosmos, the very antithesis of Chaos. It is about as far away from evil as you can get.

My biggest pet peeve is people who think order means good and choas is bad in all posible ways.

Extreme order is just as fucking evil as extreme chaos. Probably more so since people like order in thier lives and then to go overboard.

 

[Typhonis]

Darkseid one of the top villans in DC Believes in order. So Order=good does not always happen

 

[Luthorne]

cosÀmosá á? (k?z'm?s, -m?s', -m?s')
n.á
1. The universe regarded as an orderly, harmonious whole.
2. An ordered, harmonious whole.
3. Harmony and order as distinct from chaos.
4. pl. cosÀmosÀes or cosmos Any of various mostly Mexican herbs of the genus Cosmos in the composite family, having radiate flower heads of variously colored flowers and opposite pinnate leaves, especially C. bipinnatus and C. sulphureus, widely cultivated as garden annuals.


[Middle English, from Greek kosmos, order.]

chaÀosá á? (k?'?s')
n.á
1. A condition or place of great disorder or confusion.
2. A disorderly mass; a jumble: The desk was a chaos of papers and unopened letters.
3. often Chaos The disordered state of unformed matter and infinite space supposed in some cosmogonic views to have existed before the ordered universe.
4. Mathematics A dynamical system that has a sensitive dependence on its initial conditions.
5. Obsolete An abyss; a chasm.

[Middle English, formless primordial space, from Latin, from Greek khaos.]
chaÀot'ic (-?t'?k) adj., chaÀot'iÀcalÀly adv.

Personally, I always thought, given the general astronomical symbolism, that for Chaos, they meant number three, and number one for Cosmos. And I think most of us would say that, say, a state where we can actually exist in as biological organisms would generally be better than one where we would be unformed, shapeless, and presumably non-living matter, but that may just me. :unsure:

 

[Drawde]

It and Usagi are part of the Guardian Cosmos, the very antithesis of Chaos. It is about as far away from evil as you can get.

My biggest pet peeve is people who think order means good and choas is bad in all posible ways.

Extreme order is just as fucking evil as extreme chaos. Probably more so since people like order in thier lives and then to go overboard.

Many people may not see them as the same, but (from what I understand from discussions like these) the original author is the one that said they are that way in the Sailor Moon universe.

Two points to consider though. One, it may have been a translation problem. Maybe the term didn't exactly translate into Chaos, but it was the closest single word they could find. This happens a lot in translations.

Two, in some of the Eastern religions (again, from what I understand. might be wrong), they DO mean that.

 

[Xon]

Luthorne, there is a reason I stated 'extreme order' is evil. Not order itself. It is not a binary choice between order and chaos.

Many people may not see them as the same, but (from what I understand from discussions like these) the original author is the one that said they are that way in the Sailor Moon universe.

That just makes the Sailor Moon universe as freaking evil as the Cthulhu Mythos.

Two points to consider though.? One, it may have been a translation problem.? Maybe the term didn't exactly translate into Chaos, but it was the closest single word they could find.? This happens a lot in translations.

It also depends on how they are using the word 'chaos'.

As the much abused common meaning is basicly; someone stopped something someone else thought was right from happening or some plan is breaking down due to outside influence. Implying the whole idea that the plan/idea was perfect and it was only the fault of other people that it failed.

Two, in some of the Eastern religions (again, from what I understand.? might be wrong), they DO mean that.

Western religions do it too. Doen't make it any less wrong.

 

[Luthorne]

Luthorne, there is a reason I stated 'extreme order' is evil. Not order itself. It is not a binary choice between order and chaos.

My issue with your statement is that you're automatically presuming that in Sailor Moon, Chaos represents 'just a little chaos' or that Sailor Cosmos represents 'extreme order'. Unless your statement was more of a generic statement regarding chaos and order as general principles, rather than as it appears in Sailor Moon, I'm personally going to be going under the presumption that Chaos represents, "The disordered state of unformed matter and infinite space supposed in some cosmogonic views to have existed before the ordered universe," or, in short, a whole lot of primordial nothingness, and that Sailor Cosmos represents, "The universe regarded as an orderly, harmonious whole," which to me, sounds rather like a universe that has handy little things like, say, laws of nature that allow us, planets, stars, solar systems, galaxies, and so on and so forth to exist.

I certainly don't think that order must represent some sort of perfect stasis, whether physical or societal...frankly, as long as there are physical laws governing something, it has order, even if it's not order on a scale that we can necessarily grasp it. Right now, in my opinion, we live in a universe of perfect order...I don't consider 'entropy' to be 'chaotic', since it follows definable rules in and of itself. Even 'chaos theory' merely involves states where a large number of variables are present that can cause drastically different outcomes...but it still follows rules and laws, no matter how complex they are, there is still 'order'. 'Simplicity' and 'orderly' are not the same thing at all...with 'simplicity', the 'order' may be more easily discerned from human perspectives, but doesn't actually affect the actual amount of 'order' that's present. Order that is not understood remains order.

So, frankly, I think that just saying 'extreme order is evil' highly depends on the definition of 'order' being utilized. :huh.:

 

[Deleted member 5249]

It and Usagi are part of the Guardian Cosmos, the very antithesis of Chaos. It is about as far away from evil as you can get.

My biggest pet peeve is people who think order means good and choas is bad in all posible ways.

Extreme order is just as fucking evil as extreme chaos. Probably more so since people like order in thier lives and then to go overboard.

I don't assume Chaos means bad and Order means good.

But in this case Chaos is the root of all evil in Sailor Moon every terrible thing, every planet destroyed, every life lost in the SM verse all lead back to him, corrupting Galaxia and Metallia, Death Phantom, Tau Ceti and Nehellenia were all his incarnations. Cosmos on the other hand is essentially SM's eqivalent to God who watches over the cauldron and allows new life to be created.

Sailor Moon Act 51

"Ohhh! Such power!" says the energy. "That white brilliance! The power of the strongest light in the galaxy! So it has finally made it here to me. I am Chaos. The one who missed becoming a star. And the ruler of this Cauldron's stars of darkness."

"Chaos!?" says Usagi.

"Successor to the power of the light of this beautiful Cauldron. Your siblings, born from this same sea. The stars of evil darkness. Defeated by your hand. Adding brilliance to yourself. So your name has become known throughout all the galaxy. Heh heh heh."

"Siblings!?" says Usagi. "Stars of evil darkness!?"

"Seeking the power of light, roaming the galaxy. The incarnations of evil darkness. The kin you have wiped out. They were all alter selves of me. They all departed from here, crossing time and space. You are siblings."

"The enemies I've been fighting..." thinks Usagi.

Queen Metallia.

Death Phantom.

Pharaoh 90.

Nehalennia.

"All siblings, born here, in the same place...!?"

"Your coming here was destiny," says Chaos. "Where there is light, there is darkness. The darkness calls to the light, and the light calls again to the darkness. Our destiny matches. As before, when everything was one here, the time has now come again for light and darkness to join hands! Soldier of the galaxy's strongest light, Sailor Moon! Give me your power now! At last, my long-awaited wish has come, for me to rule all the universe instead of this Cauldron!"

 

[Xon]

I certainly don't think that order must represent some sort of perfect stasis, whether physical or societal...frankly, as long as there are physical laws governing something, it has order, even if it's not order on a scale that we can necessarily grasp it.
<snip>
Right now, in my opinion, we live in a universe of perfect order...

Order must be deterministic. It is an implicit part of the definition.

And we do not live in a 100% deterministic universe due to things like quantum field theory and the uncertainty principle. Yes there are rules governing the potential actions, but there is an element of randomness which can not be excluded.

So, frankly, I think that just saying 'extreme order is evil' highly depends on the definition of 'order' being utilized. :huh.:

Extreme order is highly deterministic to completely deterministic which means freewill does not exist or is extremely resticted to the point of non-existance as freewill is the ability to choose, and if your 'choice' is always pre-determined it is no choice at all.

Once those conditions are satified, you get into some really nasty moral territory with truely evil implications.

 

[Xon]

But in this case Chaos is the root of all evil in Sailor Moon every terrible thing, every planet destroyed, every life lost in the SM verse all lead back to him, corrupting Galaxia and Metallia, Death Phantom, Tau Ceti and Nehellenia were all his incarnations. Cosmos on the other hand is essentially SM's eqivalent to God who watches over the cauldron and allows new life to be created.

Then Cosmos is ultimately responcible for thier creation and thier actions.

 

[Deleted member 5249]

But in this case Chaos is the root of all evil in Sailor Moon every terrible thing, every planet destroyed, every life lost in the SM verse all lead back to him, corrupting Galaxia and Metallia, Death Phantom, Tau Ceti and Nehellenia were all his incarnations. Cosmos on the other hand is essentially SM's eqivalent to God who watches over the cauldron and allows new life to be created.

Then Cosmos is ultimately responcible for thier creation and thier actions.

Actually the Cosmos Guardian didn't create Chaos. Chaos is her opposite and something that will always exist due to Galaxy Cauldron's existence. Sailor Cosmos even travelled back in time to try to destroy the Cauldron before Chaos could gain the Sailor title but couldn't because to do so would stop new life from being born.

I am Chaos. The one who missed becoming a star. And the ruler of this Cauldron's stars of darkness.

 

[Luthorne]

I certainly don't think that order must represent some sort of perfect stasis, whether physical or societal...frankly, as long as there are physical laws governing something, it has order, even if it's not order on a scale that we can necessarily grasp it.
<snip>
Right now, in my opinion, we live in a universe of perfect order...

Order must be deterministic. It is an implicit part of the definition.

And we do not live in a 100% deterministic universe due to things like quantum field theory and the uncertainty principle. Yes there are rules governing the potential actions, but there is an element of randomness which can not be excluded.

I disagree. There are laws and principals behind quantum field theory and the uncertainty principal. They may be too complex or perhaps too alien for us to fully grasp or comprehend, but they exist nevertheless. As long as things in the universe are following physical laws, regardless of how predictable those physical laws might be to our human minds, that is order. If we were lacking order, then there would be no cause and effect, things would happen without any reason whatsoever, and I don't believe that the universe works like that on any level.

Plus, who says determinism is inherently tied to order? If you mean that things follow laws and rules, and that causes lead to effects, well, yes. And yes, that does apply to people too, that much is obvious, otherwise human beings would be incapable of understanding each other on any level. Of course, there are levels that people can't understand each other on, but I think that's mostly a limitation of people themselves, rather than simply saying that people are acting completely and utterly randomly...people always have motivations and reasons, even if they don't understand those motivations and reasons themselves on a conscious level...in short, more rules and laws, or order.

But anywho. Quote me your dictionary or encyclopedia entry that says that order automatically equals determinism.

So, frankly, I think that just saying 'extreme order is evil' highly depends on the definition of 'order' being utilized. :huh.:

Extreme order is highly deterministic to completely deterministic which means freewill does not exist or is extremely restricted to the point of non-existence as freewill is the ability to choose, and if your 'choice' is always predetermined it is no choice at all.

Once those conditions are satisfied, you get into some really nasty moral territory with truly evil implications.

Nonsense. Even if that was the case, it wouldn't be 'evil', that would just be the way things are. Is gravity 'evil', simply because it might cause the death of people? Bacteria? Chemistry? The laws of physics? If the universe is deterministic, then it's deterministic, big whoop. It's not like someone's forcing their will upon you, it's just the physical laws of nature causing everything, including your own personal illusion of free will in a complex labyrinthine interaction of physical laws that a human being can't possibly comprehend. What the hell's 'evil' about that? The universe not bending itself to the will you thought you had? Everything not matching perfectly with your personal preconceptions?

 

[Steel]

Quantum Physics are only thrown out there because we are unable to determine them...basically, when you observe a system small enough, you change it.

But it still follows laws and cause/effect.

 

[AbyssalDaemon]

My biggest pet peeve (that hasn't been mentioned so far) is almost in every story that takes place post-series the Senshi are often shown as being weaker then they where at the start Dark Kingdom arcs. This is especially true with Usagi who by the series end (at least in the manga) has reached the type of power usually reserved for a cosmic horror.