SEES on the Midnight Channel

[Aranfan]

Suppose for a moment that the P3 gang finds themselves in Inaba. Suppose further that they wind up on the Midnight Channel. What would their Shadows be like?

I'll start with someone who is only kinda sorta not really in SEES: Chidori. I think Chidori's shadow would be in full on Strega mode. With the Nihilism and everything.

 

[Watashiwa]

Chidori is dead.

 

[Fatuous One]

Chidori is dead.

Never did the revival event, huh?

 

[Watashiwa]

Chidori is dead.

Never did the revival event, huh?

No, I got it, but it's probably non-canonical.

That is, in The Answer, Junpei speaks as if Chidori had passed away.

Now, I don't like it--I felt horrible when I thought that Junpei might lose Chidori after all, and I felt like crying when I realized that I'd activated it. After she revives, she's better after all. Her endocrine system is healed, and she's lost her memories of the Dark Hour (for the better--she's a much more open person after her revival).

But the Answer makes more sense if she's dead.

Dammit Atlus, could you have made his words more ambiguous?

 

[Fatuous One]

...

It was supposed to be ambiguous. Since, you know, it's an optional event. How you figure it's non-canon besides that I do not know. I suppose that all the S.Links are pretty much non-canon too, then, yeah?

 

[Watashiwa]

...

It was supposed to be ambiguous. Since, you know, it's an optional event. How you figure it's non-canon besides that I do not know. I suppose that all the S.Links are pretty much non-canon too, then, yeah?

I said that the scene works better if Chidori were dead.

In The Answer, Junpei gives a speech about not wanting Minato's sacrifice to go to waste. He talks about his feelings towards to Chidori, and it sounds like he's talking about someone who is dead.

Now, Junpei could be talking about Chidori's memory loss--but he himself feels that it's for the best, despite her telling him otherwise. But using such dramatic language just feels a tad ridiculous.

What I was saying was, "I would have liked it if Atlus had translated the scene to be more ambiguous, so that a stronger case for Chidori living could be built". As it is, the scene works best if Chidori is dead. Seeing that The Answer is canon, I figured that it supercedes anything optional in P3.

As for the S. Links, the canon there seems to be that Minato got all of them; at least based on The Answer and the two implications in Persona 4.

 

[Aranfan]

This wasn't supposed to be a debate over whether or not Chidori is still alive. How about the following: If Chidori is alive, then that was what I thought her Midnight Channel Shadow would be like.


What are your opinions on the other P3 people?

 

[Fatuous One]

I said that the scene works better if Chidori were dead.

In The Answer, Junpei gives a speech about not wanting Minato's sacrifice to go to waste. He talks about his feelings towards to Chidori, and it sounds like he's talking about someone who is dead.

Now, Junpei could be talking about Chidori's memory loss--but he himself feels that it's for the best, despite her telling him otherwise. But using such dramatic language just feels a tad ridiculous.

What I was saying was, "I would have liked it if Atlus had translated the scene to be more ambiguous, so that a stronger case for Chidori living could be built". As it is, the scene works best if Chidori is dead. Seeing that The Answer is canon, I figured that it supercedes anything optional in P3.

As for the S. Links, the canon there seems to be that Minato got all of them; at least based on The Answer and the two implications in Persona 4.

Considering how much the SEES group cherished their memories, I don't see it from your point of view.



Also, I see no implications that any of the S.Links were completed in the Answer or Persona 4. Yukari, Aegis and such were still attracted to him even if you didn't go through their S.Links, Elizabeth isn't an S.Link and Chihiro makes absolutely no mention of any senpai besides Mitsuru (her phobia of men being cured isn't really a good indicator given that she was trying to change that aspect of herself anyway).

You can assume all you want, but the ambiguity is there just so that you can see it either way. I don't see any real good reason to say yay or nay on it just because.




On topic, considering the fact that they've already mastered their persona, they shouldn't even be unstable enough to have shadows.

 

[Watashiwa]

First off, Chidori has forgotten her life as a Persona-user. Her Shadow would represent the darkness of her lost memories, taunting her with the fear that Junpei (if she stayed with him) might not be the person that she thought.

Junpei would be fun--his Shadow would claim to be glad that Minato died, leaving Junpei to be the hero. Jealously towards Minato was Junpei's defining characteristic for a while, so it's not impossible.

Akihiko would take shots at his own weakness--inability to fight Nyx, inability to protect Minato, inability to save Shinji or Miki.... Probably some guilt over fighting Aigis back in the Abyss of Time.

Koromaru... hell if I know.

Ken might be fun--guilt. Guilt guilt guilt. He's the reason Shinjiro died. His power wasn't enough to help Minato. He's always been the one dragging the team down (height, youth), and he can't ever catch up to the older members.

For the girls it's harder, and depends on how far Minato took the S. Links (probably) and whether they were romantic or platonic.

Mitsuru would represent her growing dislike of the Kirijo company, and her resentment towards her family for denying her a normal life/childhood. Her granfather especially, given that he was the cause of the hell she lived through, and for being the reason Minato kicked it.

Yukari might face a Shadow that reflects her discomfort with her new family; her step-father and any new half brothers. Given that The Answer heavily implies that Yukari's Lovers S. Link was maxed, she'd also have to deal with the grief of losing Minato again, or any anger that she feels towards him for sacrificing himself.

Fuuka's Shadow would mock her weakness, her inability to do anything but watch as her friends fight. Fuuka realized that her power is the power to connect people, but she never dealt with the helplessness that it inflicted on her.

Aigis' Shadow is Metis, more than likely.

EDIT: Hey, F1, in Jungian psychology, Shadows and Persona are separate entities. It's possible that in the games a Persona and a Shadow just have the same power source, meaning that it's normally impossible to have both at the same time. Given that the SEES team never "faced themselves". it's possible that they might face off against their Shadow, and lose their Persona until the Shadow is subdued.

 

[Fatuous One]

EDIT: Hey, F1, in Jungian psychology, Shadows and Persona are separate entities. It's possible that in the games a Persona and a Shadow just have the same power source, meaning that it's normally impossible to have both at the same time. Given that the SEES team never "faced themselves". it's possible that they might face off against their Shadow, and lose their Persona until the Shadow is subdued.

Except in the game the difference between Shadows and Persona is pretty clear: they're the same thing. They even outright tell it to you in P4. Igor does go on a bit about Shadows being splitters from the ego, but the basic point is never contested.


Not really saying them facing their Shadows is impossible, but the crew from P3 already spent a game and a half mastering their internal problems. I don't really see them being shaken up by pretty much anything.

 

[Watashiwa]

Two years is a long time, F1. How long does it take for someone to to start a new phase in their life, and realize that it doesn't work?

Plus, few of the characters in Persona 3 dealt completely with their issues. They decided to move on (Yukari=trust in father, Akihiko=inability to protect, etc.), despite their problems. Fuuka came the closest to acceptance of her problems, but she never dealt with her feelings of not being useful.

And there's nothing as creepy as your mirror image talking to you, telling you that every dark, horrible thought you've ever had about yourself is true.

So Shadows and Persona are the same thing? I knew that--that's the point of The Answer. So what happens if a Persona goes wild, like Castor? If a berserk Persona goes for too long, is it possible that it might revert to being a Shadow? It's never been part of the games, but whe could try that route.

 

[lord geryon]

So Shadows and Persona are the same thing? I knew that--that's the point of The Answer. So what happens if a Persona goes wild, like Castor? If a berserk Persona goes for too long, is it possible that it might revert to being a Shadow? It's never been part of the games, but whe could try that route.

From what I remember, Castor going wild was what was slowly killing Shinjiro. That's why he needed the pills, to suppress Castor.

So, I don't think a Persona going wild is a valid device for making them facing their shadows, as it seems that the process would kill them by the time the Persona reverted.

 

[knight_of_ni]

*snip*

That's great and all, but the whole point is that they became more mature and better at life when they went through all that.

Also, "facing themselves"...um....I'm pretty certain they realized their faults and accepted them, which was the whole point of the shadow battles. Besides, they already had Persona, like Souji and all the other characters who didn't have to go through a repeat process.

 

[Megaolix]

Two years is a long time, F1.? How long does it take for someone to to start a new phase in their life, and realize that it doesn't work?

Plus, few of the characters in Persona 3 dealt completely with their issues.? They decided to move on (Yukari=trust in father, Akihiko=inability to protect, etc.), despite their problems.? Fuuka came the closest to acceptance of her problems, but she never dealt with her feelings of not being useful.

And there's nothing as creepy as your mirror image talking to you, telling you that every dark, horrible thought you've ever had about yourself is true.

So Shadows and Persona are the same thing?? I knew that--that's the point of The Answer.? So what happens if a Persona goes wild, like Castor?? If a berserk Persona goes for too long, is it possible that it might revert to being a Shadow?? It's never been part of the games, but whe could try that route.

The only one who don't really have a Shadow to face would be Aigis. I think she pretty much dealt with all of her problems. That said, I'm pretty sure the others still have some things to deal with. Maybe just not all of them.

And Persona going wild... That may just represents how much you acknowledge your dark parts. As for Strega, remember that they could die, killed by their own Personas if they didn't take a certain pill?

 

[Luthorne]

So Shadows and Persona are the same thing?á I knew that--that's the point of The Answer.á So what happens if a Persona goes wild, like Castor?á If a berserk Persona goes for too long, is it possible that it might revert to being a Shadow?á It's never been part of the games, but whe could try that route.

From what I remember, Castor going wild was what was slowly killing Shinjiro. That's why he needed the pills, to suppress Castor.

So, I don't think a Persona going wild is a valid device for making them facing their shadows, as it seems that the process would kill them by the time the Persona reverted.

Um. From what I recall, Castor going wild was killing Shinjiro, yes, much in the same way that Medea was literally strangling Chidori, but that was a much more immediate and direct thing, while the pills Shinjiro was taking was what was going to kill him in the long run...they're fatal, long-term. At least, I'm pretty sure that was the big deal about them.

It should generally be noted that there is a certain difference between the Dark Hour and the world of the television...the latter seems more conducive to Shadows, which is not particularly surprising, given the nature of the place. Ikutsuki and Kirijo, despite being awake for the Dark Hour on what would seem to be a regular basis, never manifested Shadows or Persona, while it would seem that in Persona 4...while there are two exceptions that shall temporarily go unnamed, in the former case, that was probably because his Shadow overwhelmed them (they were somewhat weak, mentally, due to understandable shocks), and in the latter case...well...he did have a persona, unlike the former candidate, possibly due to a stronger ego, though that ego seemed to embrace the darker sides of his nature. And, of course, the eyeball from hell was involved there too...

...I suppose what I'm saying is that I'd say there's evidence that their persona might wound up slipping the control of their egos and more or less reverting into powerful Shadows, given the nature of the world inside the television, but if their egos were strong enough to maintain control, they probably wouldn't. After all, a persona is, as we all know, a shadow that's under the control of the ego. And, of course, obviously the Persona 4 gang didn't have all their issues dealt with just because their Shadows were defeated and they manifested the power of Persona...otherwise, you wouldn't have had social links with them all. So, the fact that the Persona 3 gang hasn't totally dealt with all their issues may not necessarily play a role in things...though, I would speculate it would depend on their attitude towards those issues...but, I'm getting off on a tangent.

What said Shadows would be like if they did lose control and manifest...um...I would probably want to finish The Answer before speculating too much. :mellow:

 

[Sect]

while it would seem that in Persona 4...while there are two exceptions that shall temporarily go unnamed, in the former case, that was probably because his Shadow overwhelmed them (they were somewhat weak, mentally, due to understandable shocks), and in the latter case...well...he did have a persona, unlike the former candidate, possibly due to a stronger ego, though that ego seemed to embrace the darker sides of his nature.

Three, if you count the Void Quest. Also, there was one other person in the TV who never developed a Shadow or a Persona...

... Okay, two, if you count Fox.

 

[Luthorne]

while it would seem that in Persona 4...while there are two exceptions that shall temporarily go unnamed, in the former case, that was probably because his Shadow overwhelmed them (they were somewhat weak, mentally, due to understandable shocks), and in the latter case...well...he did have a persona, unlike the former candidate, possibly due to a stronger ego, though that ego seemed to embrace the darker sides of his nature.

Three, if you count the Void Quest. Also, there was one other person in the TV who never developed a Shadow or a Persona...

... Okay, two, if you count Fox.

Nah, in Void Quest, he manifested a Shadow. A Shadow designed by Hitler, Zod, and Satan, but a Shadow nonetheless. It just didn't become a Persona for what I would consider to be...obvious...reasons. And the other person I presume you're talking about...Teddie already said why they didn't develop a Shadow, which had more to do with their current biological state than anything else. As for Fox...well, while Koromaru would indicate that nonhumans can manifest a Persona...Fox is just weird, dammit. WEIRD.

I mean, seriously, what the hell, Fox's kits had bibs! Given what they showed, it doesn't really seem like she has much human contact other than you, so where did those bibs come from? And that's even leaving out the fox's bizarre ability to understand you and your party members, its apparently infinite stash of fantastical healing leaves (where do they come from?), and fiscal knowledge. Seriously, I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that fox had had a Persona the entire time. Presuming it wasn't something even stranger. h43r:

 

[A Curious Stranger]

I always thought that the Fox was the shrine's god or something like that.

 

[Sect]

I always thought that Fox was male. I've finished his Social Link, it's just what I always thought.

 

[Luthorne]

I always thought that Fox was male. I've finished his Social Link, it's just what I always thought.

Well...

...I can understand that, since I thought that the fox was male up until the end, but...foxes are extreme loners, for the most part, the only interaction the male has with rearing its kits is to occasionally put some food outside the den of the mother, while the mother takes care of the kits until they reach maturity, after which they get promptly booted out on their own. So, that's why I'm assuming that they're probably female, personally. :huh.:

 

[Aranfan]

Two things:

1. "Two in harmony surpasses one in perfection" sounds like something you would put on a suicide note. If her link was maxed, she might be secretly suicidal.

2. How would SEES and The Investigation Team react to each other?

 

[DrTempo]

The fanfic "Persona 4: Five Years Later" on FF.Net gives a good way to solve the P3 character's problem: New problems. Basically, in the five years between P4 and the fic, the charcaters(minus Souji)developed new problems, causing the loss of the ability to use their Persona. I think something like that plot device would work here.

 

[toraneko]

"Two in harmony surpasses one in perfection" sounds like something you would put on a suicide note.

I don't see how you came to that conclusion. But anyway, it's no secret that that quote is the Kirijo group's motto, taken on after their split with the Nanjo group.

You can also find it engraved on the little sculpture next to the food counter at the first floor of Gekkoukan High.

 

[Aranfan]

"Two in harmony surpasses one in perfection" sounds like something you would put on a suicide note.

I don't see how you came to that conclusion. But anyway, it's no secret that that quote is the Kirijo group's motto, taken on after their split with the Nanjo group.

You can also find it engraved on the little sculpture next to the food counter at the first floor of Gekkoukan High.

Fanfic stuck the idea in my head, and I can't get it out. Although, Mitsuru had staked a fairly large portion of her life on being with Minato at the end of her Social Link.

 

[Luthorne]

The fanfic "Persona 4: Five Years Later" on FF.Net gives a good way to solve the P3 character's problem: New problems. Basically, in the five years between P4 and the fic, the charcaters(minus Souji)developed new problems, causing the loss of the ability to use their Persona. I think something like that plot device would work here.

It should be noted that it's not having problems in and of itself that causes you to have a Shadow...it's the refusal to accept that those problems exist, that they're a part of you, repressing them and refusing to admit that they're a part of you. Given that at the end of Persona 4, they all vowed to do their best to face their life forward, seeking for the truth, not pretending that those parts of themselves don't exist any more, I find the premise of such a fic to be...rather insulting to the Persona 4 cast. Especially in only a span of five years. But anyways.

I agree with toraneko...I don't understand how you can imagine that as a suicide note, unless it involves joining Minato, but that wouldn't really work, since Minato's not exactly dead, but rather, stuck in the Great Seal, which I'm pretty sure is something they find out in The Answer, so, she ought to know she can't join him in there...but seriously, the rather clearly stated point of the motto in question is that two people working together are better than one supposedly perfect person, and it's better to try and work together with other people rather than doing everything on your own, and suicide is usually not a group activity, and I don't see Mitsuru as passing out the poisoned Kool Aid. <_<

As for how SEES and the Investigation Team would react to each other, that highly depends on how they meet. The only other Persona-users SEES has known in the past is STREGA, so they know that persona-user doesn't equal good guy. On the other hand, they also know it can happen naturally, since Mitsuru busted hers out naturally, but the fact they don't need evokers may be somewhere between suspicious and interesting. Meanwhile, the Investigation Team is looking for whoever's tossing people into televisions, and they know that persona-users can enter through the televisions. Teddie initially thought Seta and Yousuke were the most suspicious ones involved, so, it's possible that they might suspect that SEES is behind the murders. Thus, both sides will probably be somewhat leery of each other, neither wanting to give out too much information until they get a better idea of what the other group's about, and if they're going around killing people...after all, the Investigation Squad might be suspicious to SEES too, presuming they know any details about the murders...they always seem to be in the area where the murders occurred, after all.

Of course, Aigis could always ask the fox and get the details, presuming it's talkative. :snigger: