Square-Enix

knight_of_ni · Jun 25, 2011

Sazh was the only character I considered well written and worthwhile in my experience. Snow was a bloody idiot, and gets worse with time given his general stupidity, and the fact that he gets any romantic tension. Hope was a teenager, that is all. Fang was...eh...she existed mostly for yuri vibes, and that was quite boring. It doesn't help that she also gets worse when she meets up with her most likely lover. My dislike for Lightning's personality was compounded that despite being a "cool, collected" soldier, she dressed like your average chick.

As for gameplay, it gets harder, it actually does get to a point where it will punish you for doing something that you aren't ready for, severely. Which was quite nice, to be honest.

GenocideHeart · Jun 25, 2011

knight_of_ni said:

That's not getting harder, that's using common design sense. I'd bloody expect even the weakest RPG to punish me for trying to get in a level 50 area when I'm just level 10, if it didn't, it'd truly be a piece of shit and have failed at everything.

When I think 'harder' I think 'If you even try to use an enemy's favorite element against him with because you are mindlessly spamming, not only will you skip the rest of your turn, but you'll likely get raped in return'. Y'know, what the Megaten games that used Press Turns did.

They didn't just reduce or null the effectiveness of your attacks, they punished your ginormous fuckup by taking away the entire rest of your turn, as a way of saying 'You are a fucking dumbass, pay more attention next time instead of mashing on the Confirm key like this is some faggot ass Final Fantasy game, you don't get to power your way through here, try and you die'.

And of course, if the enemy REFLECTED your attack, it added injury to insult. Megaten was a relatively easy game... if you paid attention and used your brain. If you didn't, however, it horribly, hideously raped you without lube even in random encounters. And that's on the easiest setting.

Dreamingfox · Jun 25, 2011

Just finished 3rd Birthday, of the Parasite Eve series, and I have to say, WTF?

The game play was okay, but seriously, WTF is up with the plot?

Ordo · Jun 25, 2011

Yeah....we're not sure what happened with 3rd birthday....

FinalMax · Jun 25, 2011

Think about how long it's been since Square-Enix last visited the Parasite Eve series. I think they forgot what they were working on, and standard policy followed.

Souffle · Jun 26, 2011

I enjoyed FF13, and will probably enjoy FF13-2

I'm hopelessly awaiting the next Mana and SaGa games.

Dungeon Siege 3 is _horrible_.

Bill Felix · Jun 26, 2011

Souffle said:

So, like, what drugs were you on?

Souffle · Jun 26, 2011

Bill Felix said:

Drugs called 'Linear does not automatically equal bad', 'Sazh is pretty cool', and 'just because it's not the most perfect game ever doesn't mean I can't enjoy it'

My only real complaint was the lack of towns

knight_of_ni · Jun 26, 2011

GenocideHeart said:

GH, you claimed that Demon's Souls was hard, and I believe outright praised the way there are enemies that will kill you in one hit, because you are not ready for them. What's more, I don't remember any indication of the enemy being too hard for you, other than the size, but the behemoths prove that isn't a good indicator for power. They also hang out in an area with a lot of lower level enemies. Now, I didn't enjoy the way it took half of the game for the battles to get interesting and challenge me, but eventually they did and dying to them was incredibly hilarious, for me. We get that you hate the company, but frankly, I don't care.

I'm not going to ask that you don't say "Well, fuck Square Enix" because you know what? Its a perfectly reasonable response to some of the shit they have made, the recent Star Ocean games come to mind, and the story to FFXIII was quite frankly annoying as hell. However, you don't see me spouting about how I thought Nocturne was incredibly dull every time people mention Megaten, do you? Because that is what it is getting like to me.

EDIT: That isn't even getting into the "Oh no! They changed the names! Its ruined forever!" thing. Seriously dude? Its stupid and pointless, but its worse to bitch endlessly about it being ruined by that.

Ordo · Jun 27, 2011

I've decided that the makers of FF 13 had little interest in me actually playing this game. My role in this was to hand them money, then sit down and quietly watch their "epic" story, admire their "Deep" characters, and enjoy their "rousing" fight scenes. Oh a few token gameplay decisions were tossed my way but nothing all that interesting. I mean I just finished playing another round and spent much of my time splitting my attention between hitting confirm and folding my laundry. I tried to get to gran pulse where things supposedly get better but I don't think I can take anymore of this slog. What's worse I looked at a walkthrough and saw the map for the Gran Pulse chapter and wasn't really impressed. I just can't see this one chapter making up for everything that's occured in the previous chapters.

I think I'll trade this in and use the money for a down payment on Skyrim.

Souffle · Jun 27, 2011

I'm gonna play skyrim like i played oblivion and morrowind

*does nothing of interest and has no fun whatsoever and feel directionless as fuck in whatever i'm doing, also get attacked by wildlife and have a shitty melee system and have to deal with mods to fix the ugly ugly npcs*

nope.avi

Oblivion had it's moments, there's probably a great story there, but it's so open and directionless that there's no point in following the story when the fun is going aroudn doing as you please until that gets boring. Then you do the story... out of curiosity's sake. It's the same problem with most non-linear games, few ever get 'non-linear' or 'free-roaming' or whatever fancy words they want to slap on it, right.

Few games that got it 'right'

Romancing SaGa
Final Fantasy X-2
Legend of Mana
I cant think of any others at the moment

So no, the complaint that 'hurr the game is too linear' is a huge reach when there is a different facet of linearity that an actual respectable complaint. The fact that you have to unlock the 'levels' of your sphere grid at the end of each chapter is stupid as hell. Hell, the fact that you can't switch from the base given classes you get until like chapter 9 or whatever in fuck was stupid.

There's a gigantic, massive, fully legit reason you can't 'turn around and visit the towns' in the game, given to you from the start of the game, and people still complain about it. Fine, I can actually understand that. Towns are a big part of games, talking to npcs are cool, it expands the world a little. But god forbid someone tries to do something different, fuck that, lets make Final Fantasy IV over and over.

Character complaints are legit, some people will like other characters more or less depending on their prefrences and opinions. Story complaint: There is few jrpgs that have a really good story and I've long accepted that. Play wrpgs for the story and occasional fun, play jrpgs for having fun and the occasional interesting story.

Battles... Man i'd love to go through a random battle later in the game without using class switching or manual ressing (apparently there is auto-ressing in auto-battle before you get life?), and just mash X to win right

Oh wait that doesn't happen. Pulling that shit in a boss fight gets your face stomped in. Pulling that shit in some later random battles gets your face stomped in. Sorry for letting you press X to win in the first few minutes of the game, clearly there's no strategy or something so you may as well write off the rest of the game.

I'm also wondering what people wanted if there was no auto battle. The fights wouldn't be even a third frantic-looking and fast paced without it at times. Oh no i can press a button that will 60-70% of the time do what I wanted to do anyway in an efficient manner.

Bill Felix · Jun 27, 2011

It sounds like you'd be better off playing action games then.

I can't believe you actually criticized RPGs for their capacity to let you take control and role play as the genre was always intended to. If the Elder Scrolls games feel directionless, it's not because there's a problem with the game.

It's because you don't appreciate RPGs that give you that level of control and decision making.

Honestly, no one would have a problem if FF just became a third person action game series and stopped trying to market itself as an RPG. But it does, which, in this day and age, is expected to mean more than a level up system.

Ordo · Jun 27, 2011

The game being too linear IS a valid complaint. Part of the fun in an RPG (j/w) is the feeling that I as a player am driving the game forward via my actions. Suikoden V accomplished that by allowing me to determine some of the Princes response, and by giving me a world to explore, FF 13 has not done that at all. I as a player DO NOT MATTER. My input has no value beyond the battle system and even that is loose.

Yes IÆve played those boss battles, and thatÆs the only portion of the game where IÆm actually paying attention. IÆm still able to sip my morning coffee or type out a post on this forum while I do it, and at no point in any fight have I felt truely æengagedÆ or æengrossedÆ.

Trying something new is fine, but when it fails, I as a player have a right to tell them about it. Dragon age 2 tried something different from BiowareÆs standard ævisit 4-5Æ places story and IÆll happily point out where they went wrong and what they could do to make a city adventure work (Vampire: Bloodlines being a good place to start).

Yes, FF 13 has a story reason for being unable to explore the world, and it doesnÆt help in the least. How many RPGs have the main characters on the run and still allow them to explore the world? Heck FF X had them on a journey to save the world from SIN, yet by thunder they still found time to play (Bleg!) Blitz Ball.

They donÆt get a pass from me. I know they can do good stories, and as a consumer I have a right to ask for the best tale for my buck.

Look if you liked the game, fine, but do not discount peopleÆs complaints because they donÆt æget itÆ. I love Mass Effect 2, but I respect the opinions of those who do not and am happy to see Bioware addressing their concerns by adding things like weapon customization back in. Same goes for Skyrim, what with them streamlining the game and giving players a standing quest to gain ancient powers (Dragon Shouts).

The only reason FF 13-2 has any hope is because they added back in the ability for the player to affect the world via their decisions. Whether itÆs to explore towns or to find a way to weaken a monster.

FinalMax · Jun 27, 2011

Bill Felix said:

The joke is that RPG seems to now be a game term for "level-up system" in a game. Any time a game is listed as having RPG elements, it just means a level-up system.

Hell, even some of the so-called Western RPGs of late aren't the real deal. You aren't really getting into the role of a character. You're playing a story on rails with aspects of a third person action title/first person shooter. Even character creation doesn't do much good since most people will try to power game it.

Shadowseraph · Jun 27, 2011

I have to disagree on the whole battles getting hard thing in FF13, I got through the entire main story and two thirds of the post game content doing nothing but auto and paradgim switching, the only thing I couldn't kill like that was the damn adamantoise's which I just use the Death trick on.

Antimatter · Jun 27, 2011

Shadowseraph said:

Some of the hunts were damn vicious fights iirc. If your going for 5 stars for your battles, there were quite a few that could give you trouble if you weren't set up just right.

Elvarein · Jun 27, 2011

The original definition of RPG (Read: D&D etc) is a game that allows you to role-play and make decisions, thus affecting the course of the story. To be frank, there are very few games that actually do that, especially in newer series. Even in western RPGs such as the oblivion series, anything you do does not really affect the ending except perhaps in the original Daggerfall and Arena series. Also, if you look a little deeper, most of the differences from choices are skin deep; We from TFF, of all people know that slight variations here and there can result in big changes.

This is not to say that it is the game makers fault. The high demand of gamers for eye candy create increasing technical demands on games thus requiring an ever increasing amount of resources to create additional story lines. And even if gamers were only interested in story lines, the "REAL RPG" experience with all the flexibility of a changing story can only be approximated in pen and paper RPGs. And this approximation pales in comparison with *le gasp* real life. So go out there in the sun and get cracking to create your own adventures and become an Hero.

:rofl:

(Btw, on an unrelated note, some of my fav RPGs are actually japanese made such as Agarest, the original romancing saga series, etc etc)

In conclusion, I believe that the two acceptable choices in RPGs is by either creating games with great illusion of choice or games with such a wonderful and immersive story that you do not care.

Souffle · Jun 27, 2011

I'm saying it's not a big deal that this one game didn't give you a 'world to explore' when there are still many other good points about it. I'm also saying it's blown out of proportion.

If i wanted to fully be engaged or engrossed in a battle system, I'd be playing Tales of Star Ocean or something. There hasn't been a single final fantasy save for X-2 where the battle system was engaging. This isn't Bayonettah. You sipped a hot latte while playing FF13, and I did algebra homework while playing FF7 or Suikoden. Same to no difference.

I can't honestly think of any examples at the moment, but if I'm 'on the run' from a huge military group and trying not to die, I'm not going to spend the day at the inn, talk to the locals at the pub, or chill around the fountain. I'm also not going to walk fuck all knows where into some cave far off from wherever my destination is. That ruins my immersion. The fact that I seemed to be on the run for most of the game made sense. It's understandable that some people got mad at this, but it still 'felt' better than dicking around on the world map going willy nilly, then entering a town and then suddenly remembering that i'm 'on the run because i'm a rebel' or whatever.

Oh and in FFX, iirc it's noted that every summoner took a break for that game. And yes, they're on a journey to save the world from SiN, fuck if they want to take a break once in a while. (You're still moving along for the rest of the game, you know, aside from a few sidetracks.)

Never played vampire bloodlines, but i bet it was better than drag-on age 2. I think i only uninstalled Dungeon Siege 3 faster than that mess.

I'm not discounting their complaints, I'm explaining why most of these complaints are from first look experience bullshit without looking at the bigger picture of the game. FF13 is not 'terrible' in the slightest, it's just that when you got the game you got FFX again, couldn't realize it at all, and got mad that you couldn't go back to older areas in the game for some reason like you could in FFX. Except it wasn't a huge deal for me.

Then again, current jrpgs that aren't Square-enix or similar good stock are talking heads the rpg that people seem to praise a lot. I'm looking at you, Atelier *, Ar Tonelico, Disgaea. They're like FF13 in reverse or something for some people. Apparently decent characters and stories, horrible gameplay, horrible graphical animation, anything that isn't 'gameplay' is at best a visual novel.

The fact that Cavia is no longer a company makes me angry. Nier was SUCH a good game.

I'd like to make a note of something

An example timeline of events

Player needs to find something > Player finds something
Player needs to find something > Player wanders into town and talks to everyone > Player finds something
Player needs to find something > Cutscene > Player found something in the cutscene

Are these supposed to be different? In what way am I affecting the world by talking to people to find something? How is that less linear than just finding it?

The only use of over 90% of npcs in a game is to expand the world setting. The placebo effect of talking to people to raise the flag to trigger an effect feels like padding to me. Oh i'll suck down all the placebo i get, I don't mind, but the fact that people can say that it's 'better' boggles me.

Generation of NO GAMES

Souffle · Jun 27, 2011

That said, as a note, FF4 remake was one of the worst games i've ever played. I don't remember this game being so bad. I look forward to the FF6 remake with a heavy heart, nostalgia glasses crushed in hand.

knight_of_ni · Jun 28, 2011

Mh? Do you have any idea of how much a "small choice makes huge consequences" is both difficult to implement, but also hugely problematic from an actual story perspective? The general metaphor is the butterfly flapping its wings creates hurricanes elsewhere, but there is this thing called inertia, and the counter works in exactly the same way. People have a certain amount of inertia, it can take a little or a lot to get people to do something you want them to do. Its generally a lot.

You want to know why Bloodlines played this so successfully and it is the only good example of choices like that in games othat I have seen? Because no matter what you do, you are playing a bastard who is using everyone around him. You only change the degree of how intelligent your character is in manipulating others. You are also not a mover and shaker until the very end, you are just a pawn, and most of the events are set into motion around your being a pawn. Everything you have that has an impact for most of the game is either orchestrated, or was meant to be a suicide mission. THAT was why it was successful, because your choices meant so fucking little.

Also: open ended games tend to fall apart story wise, because they lack characters.

Ordo · Jun 28, 2011

I donÆt see a lot of those ægood pointsÆ. I see a game that has little to no interest in my input as a gamer/consumer, isnÆt particularly fun to play, and propels me down a linear path for 20 hours minimum with few deviations. IÆve played Linear games that managed to be fun, they did something to make the experience exciting, or made me really care about the characters. FF 13 has failed to do that for me.

I normally find myself doing everything in my power to gain XP in games because I enjoy growing my characters in interesting directions. With FF 13 I find myself avoiding fights because I am sick and tired of just hitting confirm, and switching paradigms. That is not a good place for an RPG of any stripe to be in, where the player would rather ignore a fight, not because theyÆve found a better way to progress, but because itÆs so frakking boring that being weaker is a preferable alternative.

I had more fun with Suikoden, Final Fantasy Tactics & Advanced, FF 11, Disgaea 3, Star Ocean and the æTalesÆ games.

IÆll make it clear I am not having fun playing this game.

Then something has gone wrong, and needs to be fixed. For all the problems I had with DA 2, combat was engaging and even fun. I rather enjoyed watching my mage dominate the battle field via his meat shields, mystic power, and the clever deployment of them all.

Heck Baldurs Gate 2 and Icewind Dale gave me more enjoyment during combat than FF 13 has managed.

If theyÆd had you doing that for an hour or two, I wouldnÆt complain. However youÆre still running 20 hours into a game that is padded with flashbacks, cutscenes, and areas that could easily have been skipped/cut/fused/etc.
ThatÆs poor storytelling. They dragged out things that couldÆve been established fairly quickly, forced you to run down a linear path that couldÆve been cut in several places or spiced up in ways that wouldÆve been interesting.

Heck, If theyÆd allowed you to roam around town, but had the number of enemies (and their power) that could be encountered increase the longer you stay, THAT wouldÆve been perfect. Now youÆre balancing the possible rewards of staying and exploring that town versue the risk of running into fights you canÆt handle.

By calling these complaints æBullshitÆ you are discounting them, and they need to be heard. The game is pretty and has a nice musical score but the rest of itÆs not worth the price of admission. What I was expecting was an entertaining JRPG with a fast fun combat system, a lovely new world to explore and interesting characters.

I got a game that I have to force myself to play just so I can say that I gave it a chance. I havenÆt wanted to play anymore since hour six, and I seriously considered hurling it across the room at hour 12.

Because you have the option of not setting that flag. Choice is important, especially in an RPG. Seeing that your playthroughs can vary keeps people coming back. Lord knows I wouldnÆt play through the Witcher 2 again if I couldnÆt change things.

IÆm not here to subsidize the games industry. If Square-Enix canÆt put out something worth buying, then they can go bankrupt for all I care, perhaps itÆll serve as a warning to the rest.

Open ended games whose characters I liked more than the ones in FF 13

Deus Ex
Mass Effect Series
Vampire: Bloodlines
Fallout series.
Baldurs Gate Series
Dragon Age series
KOTOR
Witcher 2

Again if you all like it fine, but I and others are not as pleased and wish to share why in the hopes that these missteps will be corrected in future releases.

Souffle · Jun 29, 2011

I think this is boiling down to some odd thing where people wish FF13 was exactly the same as any other rpg. They tried to innovate and modernize the thing, succeeded in some places and didn't in others, so the game gets slammed for not being 'the best ever'.

I guess I have a high tolerance for bullshit or something, because I enjoyed what I played, paid full price for it, plan to play through it again and maybe even plat it. I also realize it's not he best jrpg of even this generation of consoles.

But I just don't like comparing one game to another. Because I can play both if i wanted to have that experience.

I enjoyed the FF13 experience as much as I enjoyed my Star Ocean 4 or Suikoden 3 or FF6 experiences, but they were different games in the same genre with different ways of expressing their stories and different forms of gameplay.

Yeah, The Witcher/The Witcher 2's stories change depending on your decisions. Wishing other games would do that is a horrible wish though, If i wanted that experience, I'd play the Witcher, not Final Fantasy or Pokemon or whatever. Whenever I want to have a relaxing stroll through a game with an ok story and characters I'd probably like, and a lazy battle system, there's final fantasy. If i want my space anime, I can play star Ocean. If i want an in-depth actiony battle system, there's Tales and Star Ocean.

If i want talking anime heads and design decisions stuck in the ps1 era of Visual Novels, there's always Ar Tonelico and Argarest. If i want to be a marine fighting to save the united states from terrorists, there's about 50 games that fit the bill.

Basically what i'm saying is that people that complain _that much_ about FF13 should go play Tom Clancy's modern wargears: battlefieldzone 3. Because hey, if you want that same perfect experience in every game you play, there's about 23913 different developers bringing it to you, right?

GenocideHeart · Jun 29, 2011

Souffle said:

If you want to innovate a game, don't bill that game a RPG and then make it the farthest possible thing from a RPG you can imagine. That's what annoyed the fuck out of me the most. I would be a lot less annoyed if Square didn't try to sell that pile of crap as a RPG and instead sold it as, I don't know, a turn-based hack'n'slash, which is closer to what it is.

Ordo · Jun 29, 2011

I have to respectfully disagree, because a lot of these complaints are coming from longtime fans of the Final Fantasy series. They look at the older games, the ones where you had more control over the party, the ones with memorable characters and great stories, the ones that allowed for more exploration and wonder what in the world went wrong with FF 13. At least with FF XIÆs gambit system I actually set up the routines, and even then I still had the ability to jump to any character and make them do my will. I also liked the characters of XI more, heck my biggest gripe was that Vaan and Penelo couldÆve been cut from the game with little lost. That said I still liked them, I just wondered what in the world they were doing here.

I can, because itÆs my money on the line. IÆm not giving out cash for a substandard experience, so if one company/Series has a better track record with me than another, IÆm going with them. For example I have played Crysis series and the FEAR series. If I ever had to choose between Crysis 3 and FEAR 4 IÆd be grabbing Crysis 3 without hesitation.

Again these people arenÆt complaining because itÆs not like an FPS, they are complaining because it doesnÆt stand up to the past experiences theyÆve had with the Final Fantasy series. Just like how Dragon Age 2 doesnÆt stand up to Dragon Age Origins and they tried something ænewÆ as well.

Souffle · Jun 29, 2011

Ordo said:

First, I'm talking about how practically every fps is almost the same these days. There's very little practical difference between modern warfare and ghost recon or battlefield, aside from minor variations between them. This is how i feel gamers wanted FF13 to be, the most final fantasy final fantasy that there was.

FF13 could have used more exploration. The battle system wasn't SO DEEP. The characters weren't SO GREAT. But that's par the course for final fantasy, aside from 12 which was pretty much GOTYAY. So if I am dissapoint about anything, it's that they didn't make another 12.

But I'm fine with that. This plays like a faster paced 7 or 10. Despite not being able to go back to the environments i did before, they look beautiful and memorable enough. I didn't terribly care that they were long hallways. I enjoyed most of the voice acting, the music was great, the graphics were amazing, the characters could have used some work but hey there was good ol' Sazh pretty much making up for everyone.

The battle system, while not DEEP, was interesting, and it's cinematic style wouldn't work if you had to control all 3 characters anyway. X2 was somewhat better but wasn't nearly as cinematic. But as a tradeoff, it only had 3 characters and a REALLY worse storyline.

And I got 80 hours out of it, undisgusted, mildly happy, and spent the next year or so listening to the ost.

As for getting better for your money... What else was out when FF13 came out? Aside from valkyria chronicles; a game, by the way, is by design almost more linear; and maybe white knight chronicles, grindfest and wallet drainer(WHY DID I BUY THAT FOUNTAN FOR 4 USD); the best ps3 RPG at the moment, Nier, didn't come out until a month later.

I could just be bad at getting my thoughts across, but my main problem is that complaining about why this isn't like that is going to happen when someone tries to change the status quo and bring a different experience. Now X-2 has a talking moogle that turns into a bow and a useless girl as a main character, along with some guy no one cares about ever. He will never live up to Paine either. These complaints are valid, but i just find them over-exaggerated to the point of bullshit.

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