Superman Vs. Goku
- Thread starter lqader4529
- Start date
trevelyan1983 said:
Far as I can see, that's just me.á I spell it that way because it reminds me how it's supposed to be pronounced.á <s>And most of the fanfics I read were written by weaboos who used the older romanizations for names.</s>á 
japanese and the original 96 english dub didnt have problem pronouncing it.
EDIT:
and the philipine dub also pronounce it as ve'je'ta.
A lot of the old vhs DBZ fansubs used Vejita or Bejita, as they were trying to keep with the romanization of the name rather than a more direct transliteration to Vegeta (given the Vegetable joke), as Vegeta would be pronounced by a japanese person more as Beh-geh-tah. Given that this was waaaay back when DBZ was still not even up to Namek arc, a lot of people got used to this.
Which is kinda understandable, because otherwise you'd have Kakkarot written as "Cacarrot" or some such, I imagine.
Which is kinda understandable, because otherwise you'd have Kakkarot written as "Cacarrot" or some such, I imagine.
Actually, Superman -can't- go faster than the speed of light anymore, not in his modern incarnation anyhow. Usually the assumption that Superman can go as fast as the Flash is because the Flash has (generally) self-imposed limits.
Superman's speed was severely reduced in the Crisis event (first one, not the most recent one), but were slowly increased until his top speed ended up just under the speed of light, I believe, though still below even what the Flash considers safe (Flash can go much closer to the speed of light without getting sucked into the Speed Force due to the 'grounding' effect of his love for Linda -and- the fact that he's touched the speed force in the first place, supposedly).
At the time when Superman -could- go faster than speed of light, the speed force didn't exist, hence why it never really was an issue for him.
Theoretically, if Superman ever did get sucked into the speed force by adding those extra bits of speed he needs, and then came back, he'd probably be exactly as fast as Flash, as he'd have touched the same power and also have a grounding effect with his own marriage (unless you're assuming that the Flash loves his wife and kids more or something like that).
Superman's speed was severely reduced in the Crisis event (first one, not the most recent one), but were slowly increased until his top speed ended up just under the speed of light, I believe, though still below even what the Flash considers safe (Flash can go much closer to the speed of light without getting sucked into the Speed Force due to the 'grounding' effect of his love for Linda -and- the fact that he's touched the speed force in the first place, supposedly).
At the time when Superman -could- go faster than speed of light, the speed force didn't exist, hence why it never really was an issue for him.
Theoretically, if Superman ever did get sucked into the speed force by adding those extra bits of speed he needs, and then came back, he'd probably be exactly as fast as Flash, as he'd have touched the same power and also have a grounding effect with his own marriage (unless you're assuming that the Flash loves his wife and kids more or something like that).
Don't bother asking for a specific incarnation of Superman from the Rabidly Pro-Superman crowd. IÆve been in discussion-turn-arguments like this before. You aren't going to get it.
Confirmed magic users in Dragon Ball have stated that ki and magic are so similar as to be practically the same thing, the only difference being that magic is apparently more versatile in the effects it creates, and that magic supposedly isn't usable by everyone (magic also seems to be slightly weaker offensively than ki, as there are several instances of ki users blasting through things created by much more powerful and experienced magic users in Dragon Ball. However, this could also be attributed to the Main Character Effect, so it's not exactly concrete).
So no. In spite of your attempts to claim otherwise and drag IRL into a discussion where IRL has no place whatsoever, ki would work on Superman in the same way magic would. Goku can't turn Supes into a toad or make him a mortal human on a whim, but he can blast him through a mountain and make him feel it.
If you're going to drag IRL into this to prove that ki and magic aren't related at all, then I'm going to drag IRL into it and prove that:
1.) You can't exceed lightspeed without teleporting or not having a solid physical body made of particles that react to the environment.
2.) There's no atmosphere in space, so Superman using his breath weapons in space or his breath weapons traveling through space is Absolute Bullshit of the highest order, equivalent to leaping over an entire planet of tightly packed Megalodons.
3.) You can't make atoms "more dense".
4.) Seeing things on a super subatomic level is impossible, because the particles in question are smaller than the particles used in the spectrum.
5.) Any amount of absurd and ridiculous bullshit the various writers for Superman have grunted out over the years to make him Yet More Badass, which I could probably list and tear apart all day if so inclined.
Don't start trying to cite IRL definitions of things (like ki) as evidence for or against either Superman or Goku. It's a really, really fucking retarded idea. Stick with canon, nothing else. And since DB canon says magic and ki are essentially identical, and DC (and Marvel, for that matter) can't seem to make up their minds on the subject, I'm going to say a DB/DBZ/DBGT character using DB/DBZ/DBGT ki would work on Superman.
Confirmed magic users in Dragon Ball have stated that ki and magic are so similar as to be practically the same thing, the only difference being that magic is apparently more versatile in the effects it creates, and that magic supposedly isn't usable by everyone (magic also seems to be slightly weaker offensively than ki, as there are several instances of ki users blasting through things created by much more powerful and experienced magic users in Dragon Ball. However, this could also be attributed to the Main Character Effect, so it's not exactly concrete).
So no. In spite of your attempts to claim otherwise and drag IRL into a discussion where IRL has no place whatsoever, ki would work on Superman in the same way magic would. Goku can't turn Supes into a toad or make him a mortal human on a whim, but he can blast him through a mountain and make him feel it.
If you're going to drag IRL into this to prove that ki and magic aren't related at all, then I'm going to drag IRL into it and prove that:
1.) You can't exceed lightspeed without teleporting or not having a solid physical body made of particles that react to the environment.
2.) There's no atmosphere in space, so Superman using his breath weapons in space or his breath weapons traveling through space is Absolute Bullshit of the highest order, equivalent to leaping over an entire planet of tightly packed Megalodons.
3.) You can't make atoms "more dense".
4.) Seeing things on a super subatomic level is impossible, because the particles in question are smaller than the particles used in the spectrum.
5.) Any amount of absurd and ridiculous bullshit the various writers for Superman have grunted out over the years to make him Yet More Badass, which I could probably list and tear apart all day if so inclined.
Don't start trying to cite IRL definitions of things (like ki) as evidence for or against either Superman or Goku. It's a really, really fucking retarded idea. Stick with canon, nothing else. And since DB canon says magic and ki are essentially identical, and DC (and Marvel, for that matter) can't seem to make up their minds on the subject, I'm going to say a DB/DBZ/DBGT character using DB/DBZ/DBGT ki would work on Superman.
Similar, for the purpose of determining vulnerability, is NOT ENOUGH.
Both kryptonite and plutonium are radioactive materials, but Supes is only vulnerable to the former, so it's pretty obvious that just because both emit dangerous radiations it doesn't make them the same thing.
Magic and ki may be incredibly similar, but so are the genetic makeups of humans and simians. And yet, crossbreeding is impossible, because those tiny differences mean a world.
Unless we see solid proof that ki works on Superman (and there ARE one or two confirmed ki users in DC too, if memory serves), I'm inclined to reject that objection, because it smells too much of assumption.
Also, please note that Supes isn't WEAK to magic. Magic just works on him as it would on a normal human, bypassing his supertough skin and all, but his ridiculous endurance still takes effect, so he will recover a hell of a lot faster from the effects than a human would, and stuff that would kill said humans will likely range from stunning to more or less noticeably hurting him.
Both kryptonite and plutonium are radioactive materials, but Supes is only vulnerable to the former, so it's pretty obvious that just because both emit dangerous radiations it doesn't make them the same thing.
Magic and ki may be incredibly similar, but so are the genetic makeups of humans and simians. And yet, crossbreeding is impossible, because those tiny differences mean a world.
Unless we see solid proof that ki works on Superman (and there ARE one or two confirmed ki users in DC too, if memory serves), I'm inclined to reject that objection, because it smells too much of assumption.
Also, please note that Supes isn't WEAK to magic. Magic just works on him as it would on a normal human, bypassing his supertough skin and all, but his ridiculous endurance still takes effect, so he will recover a hell of a lot faster from the effects than a human would, and stuff that would kill said humans will likely range from stunning to more or less noticeably hurting him.
Who wants to bet that if Goku came into contact with Kryptonite he would be able to make his ki give out the same energy?
Even if it's not magic who says Goku can't tweak his ki until it hurts/kills Superman. Different attacks give off different forms of energy and if Superman is weak against one of those then he would be boned. There is also the fact that unlike Superman Goku is more than willing to kill his opponent.
For the person who said that Superman is a good combatant, it doesn't matter how much of Superman lover you are you have to admit that Goku is a much more skilled fighter and he has fought opponents who are much more skilled. Goku at twelve knew more about fighting than Superman does. This is mostly because in the DBZ universe you actually have to earn the majority of your skill and power.
The reason for this discussion was this video if anyone wanted to know.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlNtGzQTBAY&feature=related
Even if it's not magic who says Goku can't tweak his ki until it hurts/kills Superman. Different attacks give off different forms of energy and if Superman is weak against one of those then he would be boned. There is also the fact that unlike Superman Goku is more than willing to kill his opponent.
For the person who said that Superman is a good combatant, it doesn't matter how much of Superman lover you are you have to admit that Goku is a much more skilled fighter and he has fought opponents who are much more skilled. Goku at twelve knew more about fighting than Superman does. This is mostly because in the DBZ universe you actually have to earn the majority of your skill and power.
The reason for this discussion was this video if anyone wanted to know.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlNtGzQTBAY&feature=related
And again with the insistence on IRL nonsense. Do you want this discussion to get bogged down in pseudo-shitscience, or have you not figured out that doing so is more damaging to Supe's side than it is Goku's?
There is no canon evidence in DC one way or the other to prove that Superman is immune to Ki. In DB, Ki and magic are supposedly "so similar as to be practically the same thing".
In DC, we don't know.
In DB, Ki = magic, the only actual difference apparently being where it comes from.
Thus, Ki = magic if the two verses are logically combined.
What you have said is not canon. It is your own personal opinion, with no actual evidence for it outside random examples that have no actual bearing on what we're talking about.
Just deal with the fact that Goku can likely hurt Superman, and even if he couldn't as-his, he could figure out how. It doesn't mean he'll win, for fucks sake, but deal with it already.
There is no canon evidence in DC one way or the other to prove that Superman is immune to Ki. In DB, Ki and magic are supposedly "so similar as to be practically the same thing".
In DC, we don't know.
In DB, Ki = magic, the only actual difference apparently being where it comes from.
Thus, Ki = magic if the two verses are logically combined.
What you have said is not canon. It is your own personal opinion, with no actual evidence for it outside random examples that have no actual bearing on what we're talking about.
Just deal with the fact that Goku can likely hurt Superman, and even if he couldn't as-his, he could figure out how. It doesn't mean he'll win, for fucks sake, but deal with it already.
It's the type that alters reality on a fundamental level, for which there is no resistance unless you happen to have more magic than the other person, or at least enough to counter whatever they're throwing at you.
Personally, I consider pulling giant fuckblasts of OMG out of nowhere to be altering reality, but that's just me.
There's also nothing to say that it isn't altering reality on a fundamental level, and it's just never brought up in DB and DBZ because it never becomes an issue.
Personally, I consider pulling giant fuckblasts of OMG out of nowhere to be altering reality, but that's just me.
There's also nothing to say that it isn't altering reality on a fundamental level, and it's just never brought up in DB and DBZ because it never becomes an issue.
Super Buu getting his ass kicked and losing it, which causes him to power up to an insane level and nearly tear all reality apart. Gotenks and Buu's screams holding enough power to tear holes in the fabric of reality allowing them to escape Time Chamber. (Different dimension/reality in which 1 year passes for every day).
Edit: looked into it and found that Darkseids Omega Effect could kill Superman (only reason it didn't is because they were near the surface of the sun or is it because Superman is a key to the stability of the Unverse). The Omega Effect is an energy attack which is what most Ki attacks are. Going by what DC has shown and said is true a powerful enough Ki attack should be able to kill Superman, at least as far as DC Database informs us.
Oh and Buu any version could take Superman easy.
Edit: looked into it and found that Darkseids Omega Effect could kill Superman (only reason it didn't is because they were near the surface of the sun or is it because Superman is a key to the stability of the Unverse). The Omega Effect is an energy attack which is what most Ki attacks are. Going by what DC has shown and said is true a powerful enough Ki attack should be able to kill Superman, at least as far as DC Database informs us.
Oh and Buu any version could take Superman easy.
Then your argument about DBZ magic or Ki doing jack shit is fundamentally flawed to hell. Absence of contradicting proof does not make truth.
And you're wrong anyway. Ki does not fundamentally alter reality. It is a power source, not especially different from Superman's solar radiation. Which is not magic in the DC universe.
And you're wrong anyway. Ki does not fundamentally alter reality. It is a power source, not especially different from Superman's solar radiation. Which is not magic in the DC universe.
The whole punching reality thing only happened because Superboy was in a position to be able to do so.
He and Golden Age Superman and Golden Age Lois Lane (and the yellow guy whose name escapes me at the moment) at the end of the Crisis series in the 1980s went into another world to live out life happily.
When the comics dove into that for Infinite Crisis (which is what I believe it was called, again brain fart) the world they lived in had an area where they could 'watch' the events that were happening in modern day DC.
In this and after much time Superboy became angry at being robbed from his life and in a rage punched 'the screens' that were showing all the events in the DC universe. Going from memory this caused the universe to destabilize and change slightly.
It wasn't that Superboy was so strong he could do it on a whim it was that he was in a position where he was in the right place to do so.
As for Goku vs Superman, it depends on which Superman. Golden Age, Bronze Age(John Byrne up to mid/late 1990s) and TV Superman get the shit kicked out of them 9 ways to Sunday by Goku and co.
Silver Age Superman (aka Superdick) from the 50s to 80s is beyond rediculously powerful in that IIRC he gained some new superpowers from time to time on the writers whim to do things for that issue. This one was the one that could pull a few down planets linked by chains (yes, plain steel chains...).
Modern Age Superman from what I recall has slowly been coming close to Silver Age.
The problem with these debates is that the Superman Universe is alive and fluid, while Dragonball has ended, hence being a 'fixed' universe that can no longer change unless Toriyama himself takes it up again.
Also keep in mind that because Superman is still going on (seemingly forever) it's up to the writers to come up with a write his powers how they see fit. It's also not out of the question that a fanboy may be put in charge (and hate these vs events to begin with - or do something else, see Joe Quesada's ending Spiderman and Mary Jane's marriage because he never liked it) and put an end to this by writing Superman in a way that makes these arguments mute (at least until the next writer comes along to retract/retcon that out).
He and Golden Age Superman and Golden Age Lois Lane (and the yellow guy whose name escapes me at the moment) at the end of the Crisis series in the 1980s went into another world to live out life happily.
When the comics dove into that for Infinite Crisis (which is what I believe it was called, again brain fart) the world they lived in had an area where they could 'watch' the events that were happening in modern day DC.
In this and after much time Superboy became angry at being robbed from his life and in a rage punched 'the screens' that were showing all the events in the DC universe. Going from memory this caused the universe to destabilize and change slightly.
It wasn't that Superboy was so strong he could do it on a whim it was that he was in a position where he was in the right place to do so.
As for Goku vs Superman, it depends on which Superman. Golden Age, Bronze Age(John Byrne up to mid/late 1990s) and TV Superman get the shit kicked out of them 9 ways to Sunday by Goku and co.
Silver Age Superman (aka Superdick) from the 50s to 80s is beyond rediculously powerful in that IIRC he gained some new superpowers from time to time on the writers whim to do things for that issue. This one was the one that could pull a few down planets linked by chains (yes, plain steel chains...).
Modern Age Superman from what I recall has slowly been coming close to Silver Age.
The problem with these debates is that the Superman Universe is alive and fluid, while Dragonball has ended, hence being a 'fixed' universe that can no longer change unless Toriyama himself takes it up again.
Also keep in mind that because Superman is still going on (seemingly forever) it's up to the writers to come up with a write his powers how they see fit. It's also not out of the question that a fanboy may be put in charge (and hate these vs events to begin with - or do something else, see Joe Quesada's ending Spiderman and Mary Jane's marriage because he never liked it) and put an end to this by writing Superman in a way that makes these arguments mute (at least until the next writer comes along to retract/retcon that out).
...you DID NOT just compare the Omega Effect to a Kamehameha. It's a completely different thing.
The Omega Effect is basically Balefire, for all intents and purposes. It doesn't even atomize you, you just vanish without any trace left behind, not even atoms.
Darkseid doesn't use it SPECIFICALLY because doing it too many times will cause reality to unravel, and he wants to conquer it, not blow it up.
The Omega Effect is basically Balefire, for all intents and purposes. It doesn't even atomize you, you just vanish without any trace left behind, not even atoms.
Darkseid doesn't use it SPECIFICALLY because doing it too many times will cause reality to unravel, and he wants to conquer it, not blow it up.
Why the heck is this still being argued over? Superman is the only character in existence to have more H4X, plot armour, fanwanking and general fanboyism going on than Goku. For that matter, they're practically the same character from different cultures.
Isn't it obvious, from how hard the Goku side of the argument are having to work in order to equalize things, that Superman can't be beaten in a fair fight? <s>LOL, breathe vacuum, or sense the sun's energy because fanboys say so!</s>
It takes something as unbalanced as Doomsday to put him down, and even that didn't work for long. So either Superman takes everything Goku can throw at him and tanks it, before punting Kakkarot into space . . . or Goku's ki abilities are Deus Ex'd into just the right kind of magical energy beam to put Superman down.
Either way, fanboys on either side will wail and gnash their teeth and take it as a personal affront. What's the fucking point?
Isn't it obvious, from how hard the Goku side of the argument are having to work in order to equalize things, that Superman can't be beaten in a fair fight? <s>LOL, breathe vacuum, or sense the sun's energy because fanboys say so!</s>
It takes something as unbalanced as Doomsday to put him down, and even that didn't work for long. So either Superman takes everything Goku can throw at him and tanks it, before punting Kakkarot into space . . . or Goku's ki abilities are Deus Ex'd into just the right kind of magical energy beam to put Superman down.
Either way, fanboys on either side will wail and gnash their teeth and take it as a personal affront. What's the fucking point?
