Tales from the PUG Stone

Kayeich

Well-Known Member
#76
You didn't do the valentine boss in SFK, akun?

How most seasonal bosses work:
(1) You do a prequest chain. It eventually sends you to some instance.
(2) In instance, there is a daily quest. You pick up daily quest, and get a summon item.
(3) You use summon item to start encounter.
(4) Each person in group starts encounter on turn.

So as a result, you fight boss five times, for five chances at loot. The problem is that some people tend to not use their summon, and instead ditch group after making others use their summons, saving theirs, and joining a fresh group. Essentially, they ninja'ed their group's summon attempts. This is currently how it works. So it's not a once per instance thing, it's a 5x/instance thing (assuming no ninjas).
 

akun50

Well-Known Member
#77
Kayeich said:
You didn't do the valentine boss in SFK, akun?

How most seasonal bosses work:
(1) You do a prequest chain. It eventually sends you to some instance.
(2) In instance, there is a daily quest. You pick up daily quest, and get a summon item.
(3) You use summon item to start encounter.
(4) Each person in group starts encounter on turn.

So as a result, you fight boss five times, for five chances at loot. The problem is that some people tend to not use their summon, and instead ditch group after making others use their summons, saving theirs, and joining a fresh group. Essentially, they ninja'ed their group's summon attempts. This is currently how it works. So it's not a once per instance thing, it's a 5x/instance thing (assuming no ninjas).
What if you fail? You can't get the item again? That's... well, I shouldn't say surprising, considering how much abuse they allow for a lot of things, but it is foolish.

I wanted to do the SFK valentine's boss, but either I was too busy doing other things or the group I was invited to imploded or was full because the person inviting me wasn't in charge of invitations. :(
 

Kayeich

Well-Known Member
#78
If you wipe, you lose a summon. A lot of times after a wipe, people will ditch to not use up their summon, meaning the poor sod that went first is the one screwed. If you go last, you can ditch group, and get new summon attempts from a new group, who only know that you still have a summon for the day, not that you ditched a group.

It's incredibly easy to get screwed over with seasonal bosses.

That said, an awesome person last night gave me the fumigator mask after I lost on a roll. I'd said from start that's what I was there for (screw the gay pink rocket! I wanted the badass mask!), and he just gave it to me when he won it. Totally awesome.
 

Kayeich

Well-Known Member
#79
I hate going into heroic Halls of Reflection, and seeing that it's a warrior tank for the pug. That instance is hard to heal as is, although I've certainly cleared it with DKs and pally tanks (never had a bear though). But whenever it's a warrior, its almost impossible. There's just so many things to worry about with the waves honestly, and warriors have a lot of trouble with aoe threat compared to pallies/dks. Add pally healers to that sort of encounter, and you're asking for trouble.

The problem though, is not that it's hard for a warrior/pally combo. I've cleared the instance ONCE with a warrior tank, so it's certainly doable. The problem is that...I'm always getting blamed for wipes with other warrior tanks and get kicked or group falls apart.

Except for rifleman, every mob can interrupt my healing, that's a bad sign. All dps and myself are picking aggro because warrior has trouble gathering all the mobs to pick up threat on all of them. Add to that mess that I'm often the only one doing any sort of debuff cleansing or crowd control (I do -occassionally- see other dps help with that, but not often)...and it's kind of annoying that it's always my fault we wipe according to warrior tanks.

Something I've noticed? Warriors are the only tanks that -continually- go out of LoS from me and stay that way, and blame me if I get blown up by ranged mobs for not keeping them out of LoS or for not healing them and letting them die while they rampage out in the hall...

Howerever....If the warrior isn't in line of sight of me, I've learned to dance in and out of corner in alcove to get out of LoS of mobs when they're casting while getting in LoS to toss a heal to tank. Dancing doesn't exactly help on healing when just about every heal I have is not instant cast, however, and certainly makes my job harder. It does get the mob into the alcove though.

...funny then, that once ranged mob is inside alcove, it's often still blowing me up, and tank is still out in the hall, running like a chicken with it's head cut off and out of LoS from me, while I can't hope to hide from ranged mob anymore. What's the result? There's no point in me hiding in corner and I stop doing so! But to the warrior, when I finally die, it's because I wasn't in corner (nope, it certainly wasn't because mob was in alcove continuing to blow me up).

Or, hey, I'm overhealing and getting aggro that way! Early on, I certainly tried to keep tank topped off, or healing at start of wave. I learned better. Quickly. Ouchies are very motivating. So it was certainly a truthful bitching early on.

Nowadays I never start to heal at the start of wave until tank's health has gone down a lot. I really, really do try to let them pick up aggro, and I have an idea of how much my heals do so I don't overheal near the start either, just try to keep tank over 50-70% to give them time to pick up aggro, and stick to FoL healing to lower risk of overhealing.

But if things get frantic enough with a lot of fast dropping health not just on tank but also on dps, I'm going to be a bit more serious with heals, putting beacon on tank if it's not already there and healing everyone as much as I reasonably can, trying to avoid overhealing, though it certainly does happen with crits. Of course, this leads to me grabbing aggro, which leads to me focusing on healing myself, which means dps might die because they're picking up aggro or I die because vicious cycle of healing aggro keeps mob on me and tank is having a fun time smacking footmen....here comes wipe time, and oh look, it's obviously the pally healer's fault.

Now, sometimes I still heal off just as a mob dies and new wave starts...but if party is pretty dinged, would it hurt to keep the mob alive just a little longer so I can get you guys up to near full? Or maybe to get back in the freaking alcove instead of all being out in the hall so I don't pick up aggro from the closest mobs to the alcove and random dps doesn't pick up aggro as well?

I would also note that I have a macro that I press when I get interrupted in spellcast, warning it's happened if the tank is low in health. Does tank ever pop a cooldown to save himself? Nope! Haven't seen it happen yet! Oh look, down he goes! Who's fault is it? Pally healer!

It's my fault for not keeping them healthy enough so they wouldn't die when I'm interrupted... and it's my fault for overhealing if dps or myself die first.

I don't mind that it's a hard instance for a warrior to pick up aggro in, or that it's a hard instance for paladins to heal in... but it pisses me off that I'm -always- getting blamed by warrior tanks, or worse when they ask why I'm even in the instance with less than 5k GS and start their rant of how much I suck as a healer around that tidbit.

Oh, I must not know anything because I'm not as geared as them! With their insults and their kicking me out or ragequitting and telling me to L2P, I will surely learn better!

Pfft, yeah right.

That one warrior I actually completed instance with? Every single member in that party, including warrior, had less than 4.7k gear score. Two of the members had -never- done that instance, even in normal mode. We wiped four times, but we still cleared the whole instance.

One of those wipes was the two dps who'd never been there getting blown up by lich king at the very start, despite warning them to move before we started. Of the three wipes during waves, one of them was honestly my fault, though I admitted as such (I am perfectly willing to own up to my own screw-ups).

But, in spite of wipes...nobody was raging, bitching, or assigning blame (except for the 'whoops, my bad' self-assignments). At worst, it was a bit of grumbling, mostly we just laughed and promised to do better.

Seeing as we cleared the place, I'd say we did.

So why is it that I repeatedly see groups with everyone else having more than 5k+ gear score....doing dps all over the place instead of focused dps? Why do I see those 5k+ groups not helping cleanse, shackling undead, removing curses, freezing trap, repentancing, etc? Why is it when I see focused dps in those 5k+ groups, I often see them focusing on riflemen/footmen while priest/mercenary run rampant (sometimes even after I mark them if I can)? And why is it when we wipe, it's always my fault?

Nope, no incompetent tanks or dps here! They've got 5k+ gear score!

TL/DR: H-HoR sucks donkey balls, especially when tank is a warrior.
 

Kayeich

Well-Known Member
#81
*cries on Darksnider's shoulder and blows snot onto his shirt* :blue:

Edit: Just did it again with a warrior tank on a random heroic. I was -so- tempted to flee when I saw warrior tank, but gave it a chance when his first comment was 'eww...I can't tank this.'

Someone told him 'give it a shot, what he we got to lose but a quick repair bill? =p' which was followed by '...fine. Don't blame me if we wipe though'.

I figured, hey, he's likely to blame himself instead of me, let's give it a shot. Glad I did.

Okay, tank lost aggro on occassion to higher geared dps and I got hit a few times too, but in general, he picked it all back up in a sec and I was only interrupted four times. He was out in the hall, but I never once had to think to dive into corner of alcove, except at start of new wave, and even then, not really, since he always picked up aggro on the mobs closest to alcove first then went for the others.

Still a challenge to heal, but the fun doable kind of challenge, and the few close calls with those interrupts that did hit me... the tank actually used his cooldowns (including one I hadn't known warriors had! I can't recall ever seeing Enraged Regeneration used before) when I macro-warned!

Somehow, not a single death except when he disconnected on lich king, which resulted in one wipe (on last wave before airship too, boo!). Second run through gauntlet was smooth. The gear score on this warrior? 4.8k GS. Way less geared than those 5.5-5.7k GS warrior tanks that 'know better'.

So, yeah, that's two now that worked. They're out there. Just need better luck stumbling onto warrior tanks that aren't dumb useless elitist douchebags. Apparently, it's also a good sign if the warrior doesn't think he can tank it or starts off by apologizing about possible wipes/deaths. The first one I did it with had also done something like that when he zoned in. Sheesh. :rolleyes:
 

endev8003

Well-Known Member
#82
Haven't done HoR yet. I'm not sure if I want to do it yet, but I haven't gotten it yes on randoms, even when I was spamming randoms on Sunday and last night.

Kayeich, I don't think overhealing increases your threat. Only the actual amount you healed the target for causes any threat. Unless it changed recently and the Wowwiki page hasn't updated yet. Considering my overhealing sits around 60% normally and I rarely managed to pull aggro of the tank, I think it is still that way.

As for pulling aggro off the tank, it only happened twice to me so far, both times in PoS. The first time was the third group just before the cave. I usually have trouble healing that part and had a full spread of HoT's on the tank right before the fight started. The mobs ran right through his consecrate to me. Second time was last night in the cave. The tank ran right through and didn't try to build threat on the mobs. Since I had a HoT on him, I got aggro when it healed him and got pummeled for it. After that, we switched tanks. The new tank went slower through the cave, but kept building threat and I didn't pull aggro.
 

akun50

Well-Known Member
#83
Cripes, Kayeich, it sounds more like the other Warrior tanks you've played with were DPS-style players. That or they fucking lucked up on equipment drops and never learned to tank properly.

Seriously, not needing to use cooldowns is a nice ego-booster, but not using them when they're needed is just plain moronic.

It's almost like the bad players who simply think about how much damage they're doing are the ones getting rewarded rather than the good players who worry about ruining everyone's fun and/or wasting everyone's time.

If I'm in an instance for the first few times, I apologize right off the bat for such and I warn that I might trigger a few wipes as a result of not having a good grasp of it. Hell, there are times I've been in an instance well enough to know where the trouble spots are and apologize then for the possible wipe.

Though on reflection, the tanks are probably complaining about you and using your GS as a deflection from their own shitty job. If you've got better gear, keeping the enemy's attention shouldn't be all that hard. I only have a tough time holding aggro as a tank if someone else is using tank spec as well, or if I have someone who's got a MUCH HIGHER GS in party.

But I've pulled shit off a well-geared paladin in Utgarde without using Dark Command OR Death Grasp. Dude was wearing mostly purples. I had mostly greens and blues at the time.

So, maybe you need to make a macro pointing that out when dealing with high GS warriors who are pissy about your GS and/or healing skills. Something to the tune of "If you can't hold aggro, either learn to use your fucking abilities, or switch to a different class, dumbass."

Sure you'll get kicked, but at least it'll be for a good reason: pissing off morons.
 

Kayeich

Well-Known Member
#84
endev8003 said:
Kayeich, I don't think overhealing increases your threat. Only the actual amount you healed the target for causes any threat. Unless it changed recently and the Wowwiki page hasn't updated yet. Considering my overhealing sits around 60% normally and I rarely managed to pull aggro of the tank, I think it is still that way.
...I was not aware of this. I actually checked in an instance, focusing on healing myself at full HP while tank/dps banged on a mob, and my threat didn't even shift a bit, so it's true. So my attempts to lower overhealing were a waste of time and useless warrior tanks were just making things harder for me. Great.
 

Darksnider05

Well-Known Member
#85
I'd tank for you but sadly the system doesn't work that well yet so I can't invite you for grps cross server.

 

Kayeich

Well-Known Member
#86
cross-faction either, given that looks like a nelf, and my healer is a belf. =p
 

violinmana

(Hardcore) Gamer
#87
Darksnider05 said:
I'd tank for you but sadly the system doesn't work that well yet so I can't invite you for grps cross server.

Fail for playing Alli.
 

Shirotsume

Not The Goddamn @dmin
#89
I have a rule I follow: If they are 5k-5.4k, assume they suck.

That's because anyone in that range likely just rolled their way to epics through the badges system.

Under 5k, they know how to play their class most of the time, because they try since their gear is lesser.

over 5.4k, they're actually raiding and generally know their crap.

Seriously, look at the performance boost from the average 5.3k geared dps and a 5.5k gs dps of the same class.

the one with only 200 more gs will do at least 2k more dps, guaranteed.
 

Darksnider05

Well-Known Member
#90
Shirotsume said:
I have a rule I follow: If they are 5k-5.4k, assume they suck.

That's because anyone in that range likely just rolled their way to epics through the badges system.

Under 5k, they know how to play their class most of the time, because they try since their gear is lesser.

over 5.4k, they're actually raiding and generally know their crap.

Seriously, look at the performance boost from the average 5.3k geared dps and a 5.5k gs dps of the same class.

the one with only 200 more gs will do at least 2k more dps, guaranteed.
This is so biased it's not even funny. You can't know anything about how someone plays till you see them play.

Only time gear score should come up is when your trien to do something that is time related or if you just don't feel like carrying someone.

Like HoR I don't have time for gay ass 1.5k dps.
 

Shirotsume

Not The Goddamn @dmin
#91
Darksnider05 said:
Shirotsume said:
I have a rule I follow: If they are 5k-5.4k, assume they suck.

That's because anyone in that range likely just rolled their way to epics through the badges system.

Under 5k, they know how to play their class most of the time, because they try since their gear is lesser.

over 5.4k, they're actually raiding and generally know their crap.

Seriously, look at the performance boost from the average 5.3k geared dps and a 5.5k gs dps of the same class.

the one with only 200 more gs will do at least 2k more dps, guaranteed.
This is so biased it's not even funny. You can't know anything about how someone plays till you see them play.

Only time gear score should come up is when your trien to do something that is time related or if you just don't feel like carrying someone.

Like HoR I don't have time for gay ass 1.5k dps.
That's not biased, it's a reasonable assumption based upon statistics.

The numbers agree with me, and so does the logic.

In case you were too busy farming to note my point, using badges to get full epics will stick you right around 5k-5.4k.

Any higher and you've been raiding, and that generally requires a little bit more finesse than "Lolblowshitup-it's just a heroic no one caaares!"
 

akun50

Well-Known Member
#92
:mellow: :huh: :eek:

I think you might be on to something. I'm going to start checking that out.
 

Kayeich

Well-Known Member
#93
Eh, I've seen good and bad players at all GS levels. That said, for H-HoR, I generally see the worst people being those -over- 5.4k GS, particularly melee dps/tank classes.

So not entirely sure how much merit there is in the whole 'we're raiding, we have finesse' theory of yours. Note that when there's 25 people, that opens up for many more slots you can get carried in by a guild that likes you even if you're useless. When there's 5 people, most of them strangers, there's not a lot of places to hide except your gear.

Although I did finally run into a warrior with 5.7k GS who tanked that place beautifully, after all those fail high GS warriors I've seen. It brought tears to my eyes, and netted me the "We're Not Retreating; We're Advancing in a Different Direction." achievement too. I was honestly impressed how utterly smooth it turns into when you get not just a good tank, but a -geared- good tank.

Btw I'm not entirely sure how one gets to 5-5.4k just off emblem of triumph gear and heroics.

I've been looking at all the possible upgrades I can get without grabbing pvp gear or diving into AH for battered hilt and ICC boe drops (which are just too expensive for me whenever I spot any), even including possibility of downgrading some emblems to conquest for a few more gearing options or the possibility of grabbing mail items (I really try to avoid cloth/leather though).

Comparing the difference in GS for items I have and what I can get just from triumph emblems, best I can hope for is about ~4850 GS, give or take.

Part of the difficulty, admittedly, is that the best trinkets and librams for pally healers are all ilv 200-213 epics, not the newer ones so I can always pad GS by grabbing stuff, but that feels kinda retarded.

There is also no healing weapon/shield/cloak or plate caster wrist/belt dropping from heroic ICC instances or tradeable for emblems. Well, there's battered hilt, but good luck not only seeing that, but winning roll. Everyone rolls for that just because of how much it sells for. And there's a dagger in H-PoS that's excellent for healing...so long as you're not a pally that can't use it.

And the ilv 264 belt/wrists and battered hilt are PRICEY on AH.

Of course, I'm assuming you're not including count for frost emblem gear, since at 2 emblem/day, that's gonna be a looooooong time to get enough gear. I'm at 36 right now so just about one more week until I can buy the cloak.
 

Belgarion213

Well-Known Member
#94
Do epic gems pad GS? Im not sure but my DK is nearly entirely in emblem gear (and some stuff from ICC 5 mans and ToC) and is sitting at about 4950 and still has a bit to go, and he has been lazy.

Personally I think even a few of the raiders are the people going 'ah its a heroic, no one cares' more than the emblem farmers, While the emblem farmers dick around a bit, the raiders who are doing higher level instances take the time doing their heroic to good around running confidently that their insane GS will carry them a long. Yes its not every raider or even half of them but a lot of the time i see dumb asses like that.
 

endev8003

Well-Known Member
#95
No. Gems and enchants doesn't affect your gearscore, if you're using the ingame mod.

For Wowhead and Wow-Heroes, your gems and enchants do affect your gearscore. I'm not sure about Wow-Heroes, but Wowhead doesn't check if have the correct enchants and gems for your class and spec.
 
#96
be.imba.hu also uses a system as well as a bar to show what instances and raids would be best for your gear and what you should focus on as well as how your enchants and trinkets work for your style of play.
 
#98
Human, Paladin Tank

Stats: 39.7k unbuffed, 558 Defense. (Not on as much as before, found another game that cought interest for a while)

Raid progression: Knows the first 5 fights of ICC, only did Leviathan, Razorscale and the furnace dude in Ulduar, Cleared the Plague, Arachnid, abomination and The Frost wyrm in Naxx 10 (got to it when ToC was starting to boom), full clear OS, Haven't killed Malygos, Ony has eaten the dirt 20 times on both levels, cleared all of ToC.

All and all, I think I'm all right. Not the best tank, but far from the worst.
 

endev8003

Well-Known Member
#99
Nightelf Druid. Resto spec main and Balance offspec.
Not greatly geared, but I don't often raid, and I got tired of random HC's. Got around 4.9K GS for both specs.

 

Kayeich

Well-Known Member
I used to use be.imba and wow-heroes for comparing how well your character is geared and what he's ready for before that gearscore addon came out. They were both pretty cool, if a little slow on loading/calculating info, but they were thorought, and considered spec, gems, and enchants, not just your gear, and gear had items scored according to your spec, not their item level.

I'd quit WoW sometime after ulduar came out due to stress from guild's raiding hours and guild drama. Guild imploded as I was taking a vacation, and I just decided to 'extend' that vacation. Sometime between then and january, when I came back, this new gear score addon became all the rage, and suddenly people are even more dicks about requirements for raids that just don't make freaking sense. And the addon doesn't take into account anything -but- gear item level. So it tells people how well you're geared/padded purely on an ilv sense. It doesn't say whether your gear is appropriate (you can use pvp/offpsec gear), or how you're gemming/enchanting gear, etc.

Anyhow, my main is a blood elf, holy paladin 4.6k GS right now. It was geared in a mix of 25-naxx, 10/25-ulduar gear back when I'd quit. When I came back to the game, I moved to a server with more reasonable raid hours for my timezone, though I've been doing mostly dailies and a couple of heroics, so I've been gearing it slowly and not really raiding due to crazy GS requirements.

In general, I'm spending my time leveling a bunch of alts, a 58 troll DK (I had an 80 troll DK tank in my original server, also 10/25-uld geared like pally, but didn't want to pay $25 more to transfer and figured it'd be easier to re-level a DK than a pally), 44 orc rogue, 36 orc warlock, and 32 belf priest.
 
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