Nasuverse The Magnificent 7

sigfried27

Well-Known Member
#26
*sigh* so many flaws in reasoning...

Saber: Summoned by pseudo-magi, on accident, because Shirou happened to have an artifact associated with her.
Despite being a crappy one, Shirou is still a mage, and as such, is fully capable of summoning a servant. Artifacts can help determine your servant, thus any mage can summon them regardless of skill. However, as is the case with Shirou, when a lousy mage summons them, their stats are lowered. Arturia meets all the stat requirements for the Saber class, but her stats are lowered because of Shirou's lack of ability as a mage.

Archer: Not actually dead. Also from a parallel universe.
Umm, no, Archer is dead. He was betrayed and killed by someone that he saved. Arturia is the only Servant that became an Eirei whilest still alive.

Rider: Regardless of what we mean by "hero," she wasn't even a human. Anyway, she was summon-jacked by a kid who didn't have any actual magic power.
Rider was not "summon jacked", Shinji just has Sakura afraid of him psychologically, despite him not having any powers. Rider was willingly given by Sakura to Shinji, I believe from using a command spell to make the book that Shinji carries that gives him control of Rider as her master.

Assassin: Not a Hassin. Summoned by another Servant. Possibly not a Real Boy.
Again, one exception does not make it a fact that the rule is easily broken. Assassin is a bit messed up from being summoned by a servant. True Assassin is around and fits the bill of the typical Assassin class.

Caster: Summoned by non-magician
Caster was summoned by a mage, whom she promptly killed. She was then found by a non-mage, and decided to stay with him, and have him act as her master. He is more like a partner then an actual master.

Avenger: A completely made up class for summoning a peasant from way back in the day that was a human sacrifice. (Maybe he wasn't in the game but a sequel is close enough).
Avenger is a legitimate class made by the Einzberns with the intent of summoning Angra Mainyu. However, since Angra Mainyu is full divinity, it did not work. The current Avenger was not what they intended, only a result from the fact that they could not summon what they intended. He was the closest alternative.

So in the fifth war, we see a lot of unskilled summoners calling forth Servants who can't technically be summoned into their class.
The only person who actually summoned a servant that can really be considered unskilled as a mage is mainly Shirou. Rin and Bazette are skilled mages. If I recall correctly, Sakura has access to a large amount of prana, and Ilya has a large number of magical circuits, if not that she was almost entirely made of magical circuits. Caster's summoner...who knows, he was killed as soon as he summoned her. And of course, Caster is obviously a skilled mage.

In addition, aside from Assassin, no one was summoned to a class to which they don't fit. Lancer has the high agility and close combat skills for his class. Arturia has the stats for the Saber class, only that they are lowered due to Shirou's lack of talent as a mage. Caster has the MGI stat to fit her class, Herakles went insane at one point in his life. Assassin is the only one who does not fit, though True Assassin does.

I tend to the line of thought that these "rules" are at best loose guidelines, and that as long as someone can be kind of matched with the corresponding servant motif, it's all good. Plus "stats" are a pretty crappy way to actually describe someone's ability, especially since they also seem to be dependent on how well they were summoned or how skilled their summoner was and stuff.
Rules for classes are not loose guidelines. They are rules. The only exception is 5th war Assassin, and that is one exception, not a standard. Stats are a definitive description of ability in terms of what class they can and can not fit into. However, their qualifications are based on their base stats, not on their stats after summoning. The skill of the summoner does not determine who they get, but the level of their stats.

For example, everyone talks about how summons have to be Hassins. Well, okay, but the Assassin summoned for the Fifth wasn't a Hassin. Even if Medea was a super-sorceress, it's still a breakable rule. That seems to be a theme: yeah there are rules for who can be summoned where, but those rules are breakable.
Again, one exception does not set a standard. It is one instance of the class being broken, and only when the summoning is done in a non traditional way. It can not be held as proof that the rules are always breakable when it is only one occurence.

Also we see unskilled masters summoning high level-servants; I don't care how much of a prodigy they are, I just don't think a high-school student would have enough job experience to really be a skilled Magus.
Unskilled masters can summon "high level" servants, but with lower stats, thus making them weaker. Summoning of servants is done mostly through the Holy Grail, and as such, does not require much talent as a mage to summon. Skill level does not make a difference for who you summon.
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
#27
daniel_gudman said:
Okay, first of all, Assassin was the only Servant summoned into a class that he shouldn't have. And he was a notable downgrade from any of the Hassans because he didn't even have a Noble Phantasm and couldn't move from Ryudo's gate. He was absolutely incapable of fufilling Assassins primary function. Killing other Masters.


And as for students summoning high level Servants, remember that they fucked it up for the most part. Arturia was massively weaker statwise than she was in the past war, or even when she was alive. Plus, she couldn't get mana from her link to Shirou, or hold enough to safely use her NP. She was pretty much crippled compared to where she should have been.

Archer meanwhile, was also a fuckup. Rin's screwup cost him his memory, and achieving his goals. It was also a strategic nightmare since not knowing his name couldn't let them really plan ahead.

Finally, Rider was just as crippled as Saber was. And Sakura didn't get her because of her skill, but because of the similarities between them. Which is also a major factor in who you summon. It's the other reason Shirou was definately going to get Saber. They were incredibly alike in addition to him having Avalon.


Caster was summoned by a mage too, who remains unnamed. She killed him and had to rely on eating people to keep herself powered.



The rules in the Fuyuki Grail War can be broken, but only by very special circumstances. And there are unpleasant consequences to doing so. Sometimes very bad ones in the case of Avenger. The only other example there is we don't know enough about, when the Einzbern twins both summoned Sabers (in the Third War I think.)
 

Elf

Well-Known Member
#28
Saber: Galahad, the guy who actually managed to find the Grail. Also, the most noble of the Knights of the Round Table.

Archer: Paris. Pimp, caused a war because of his pimp juice and managed to kill Achelies.

Lancer: Bruce Lee. Seriously.

Caster: Willow Rosenburg.

Berserker: Boudica, Queen of the Icini. This woman brought down London and managed to kill a lot of Romans.

And . . . that's all I've got.
 

Shiakou

Well-Known Member
#29
Elf said:
Archer: Paris.? Pimp, caused a war because of his pimp juice and managed to kill Achelies.
Wasn't he then the first casualty to Hercules' bow? And his death wasn't even much of a loss for the Trojans? Unless there's a "Pimp" class for Servant, Paris sucks.

Berserker: Boudica, Queen of the Icini.? This woman brought down London and managed to kill a lot of Romans.
Wasn't she finally defeated by the Romans even when her army outnumbered them twenty to one?
 

nick012000

Well-Known Member
#30
Hmm...

Archer: Master Chief.
Saber: Sanguinius, from Warhammer 40k.
Caster: Doctor Doom.
Lancer: The Flash.
Assassin: Member of the Adeptus Assassinorium from Warhammer 40k. Which variety would be best is up for debate; they're all pretty kickass.
Berzerker: Blood Angels Death Company marine, from 40k.
Rider: Kamina, from Tengen Toppa Gurren-Lagann.
 

trevelyan1983

Well-Known Member
#31
Cornuthaum said:
Fixing Cornuthaum's little list, because Dumbledore is as fictional as these doods.

Lancer: Jowy Atreides.? [NP= Black Sword Rune.]

Rider: Luca Blight.? On a horse.? [Fits requirements for Saber or Berserker, as well.? NP = Flamey sword of doom, Mad Enhancement regardless of class.]
Dood, see what thou thinkest of yon suggestions. :snigger:
 

JiigarGhen

Well-Known Member
#32
Luca Blight? Well, the rest of the Masters are fucked. Come to think of it, so is whoever summoned Luca in the first place. Unless he's summoned as a Berserker, he is SO going to stab them in the back. Actually, he'd probably do that anyway, even as a Berserker.
 

Cornuthaum

Well-Known Member
#33
Theoretically, since we are discussing MYTHOLOGICAL FIGURES, we can just assume that in a thousand years people will sing epic poems based on Harry Potter. He retroactively qualifies thusly. :p
 

Shiakou

Well-Known Member
#34
Cornuthaum said:
Theoretically, since we are discussing MYTHOLOGICAL FIGURES, we can just assume that in a thousand years people will sing epic poems based on Harry Potter. He retroactively qualifies thusly. :p
If that is so, then lets assume that in a thousand years, everyone sings epic poems, makes epic movies, and writes epic fanfics about Zenithos. . . too bad they all pulled a reverse Arturia. . .

Well hello there Zeni-kun~
 

Cornuthaum

Well-Known Member
#35
Shiakou said:
Cornuthaum said:
Theoretically, since we are discussing MYTHOLOGICAL FIGURES, we can just assume that in a thousand years people will sing epic poems based on Harry Potter. He retroactively qualifies thusly. :p
If that is so, then lets assume that in a thousand years, everyone sings epic poems, makes epic movies, and writes epic fanfics about Zenithos. . . too bad they all pulled a reverse Arturia. . .

Well hello there Zeni-kun~
Well, it would be interesting, no?
 

sigfried27

Well-Known Member
#36
Shiakou said:
Cornuthaum said:
Theoretically, since we are discussing MYTHOLOGICAL FIGURES, we can just assume that in a thousand years people will sing epic poems based on Harry Potter. He retroactively qualifies thusly. :p
If that is so, then lets assume that in a thousand years, everyone sings epic poems, makes epic movies, and writes epic fanfics about Zenithos. . . too bad they all pulled a reverse Arturia. . .

Well hello there Zeni-kun~
Well, she is the father to one of our e-children after all...

Wait a second, leave my dear e-wife and gender questionability out of this.
 

JiigarGhen

Well-Known Member
#37
Epic poems...The Tales of Hawk and the Perverted Knights, ne? :lol:
 

Sect

Well-Known Member
#38
Well, I see a lot of good suggestions, but I'd like to add something for the WORST in a class.

Ranma Saotome... as a Berserker. Because his Berserk form is that of an easily distracted and generally playful cat. In fact, I can imagine him being summoned, shredding someone to pieces, then spend the rest of the war in the lap of some female Servant. :p
 

evilplushie

Well-Known Member
#40
Sect said:
Well, I see a lot of good suggestions, but I'd like to add something for the WORST in a class.

Ranma Saotome... as a Berserker. Because his Berserk form is that of an easily distracted and generally playful cat. In fact, I can imagine him being summoned, shredding someone to pieces, then spend the rest of the war in the lap of some female Servant. :p
I don't know. Berserk Ranma would have a noble phantasm much like Air in that it's invisible and can literally shred most things in its path.
 

Sect

Well-Known Member
#41
evilplushie said:
Sect said:
Well, I see a lot of good suggestions, but I'd like to add something for the WORST in a class.

Ranma Saotome... as a Berserker. Because his Berserk form is that of an easily distracted and generally playful cat. In fact, I can imagine him being summoned, shredding someone to pieces, then spend the rest of the war in the lap of some female Servant. :p
I don't know. Berserk Ranma would have a noble phantasm much like Air in that it's invisible and can literally shred most things in its path.
You don't get it: Berserker!Servant!Ranma fails because of his DEMEANOR, not because of his power.
 

Sect

Well-Known Member
#43
evilplushie said:
Well true, but he'd shred the non-female servants and masters.
Only if the other Servants, Masters, or whatever actually threaten him. I'm certain some of the Servants (Emiya, Iskander, some others) would be smart enough to do nothing threatening, then, when the female Servant is immobilized by the fact that a full grown male is purring in their lap, go for the Gold (Grail, whatever).
 
#44
I stumbled across this thread at random and I have no idea of whats going on, but no one does berserker like Brock Samson




The Swedish Murder Machine in action.

:D
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#45
Okay if we're going to talk about strange Berserker choices, I'm going to submit Major Armstrong from Full Metal Alchemist.

Although Brock is pretty good at angry.

How about Lancer? I'm thinking Shimon from TTGL. A drill is like a spear, right?
 

evilplushie

Well-Known Member
#46
From Star Wars

Assassin: Darth Vader
Saber: Anakin/Luke
Berserker: Mace Windu
Caster: Palpatine
 

Sect

Well-Known Member
#47
evilplushie said:
From Star Wars

Assassin: Darth Vader
Saber: Anakin/Luke
Berserker: Mace Windu
Caster: Palpatine
... Those don't make much sense. The only Assassin-ish thing about Vader is that he killed helpless people, Anakin and Luke aren't even close to being the top among lightsaber duelists, Mace is probably one of the most level headed pre-Purging Jedi there is. Palpatine makes sense, at least.

My list:

Assassin: Mara Jade/Lumina/Vader's Apprentice (from the new game)
Saber: There are alot of people who could qualify for this one, but I can't think of any names except for Corran Horn
Rider: Corran Horn/Luke/Jaina Solo. Really, most Jedi who are expert pilots qualify, here.
Berserker: Most fallen Jedi are notably this, especially if they have recently fell or temporarily. Vader doesn't count because he's too collected, but Anakin Skywalker might. Kyp Durron MIGHT qualify, though, because he's notable to be a hot head, as well as Corran Horn.
Archer: I really can't think of any Jedi who qualifies as an Archer with ranged attacks, so I'll just say Myn Donos. If speed/dexterity is an Archer quality, I'll also throw in Alena Rar, who is VERY well known to fight with two sabers.
Caster: Palpatine/Jacen Solo/Bastila. Easily.
Lancer: Weird one, since NO ONE uses lances. Corran Horn might count, though, with his special lightsaber that can double in length, plus the fact that his role nowadays is as a lancer to Luke and Kyp (his personal philosophy falls in between the two, and he's not afraid to bring sense to either one).

Hell, it could take days just to put Jedi/Sith only in these roles, sense there's so many of them. These are the ones that pop up in my mind immediately.
 

evilplushie

Well-Known Member
#48
Well, Darth Vader was the sith assassin after all. Supposedly, he went around hunting down all the remnants of the Jedi but that was in the books so I'm not sure how canon that is considered. As for Luke, he becomes a pretty good duelist at the end of New Jedi Order, even going against the Yong Vuzhan? commander. And I chose Mace as berserker because of his fighting style, which apparently requires the user to channel ones darkness and anger into the attack.
 

JiigarGhen

Well-Known Member
#49
Sigh....Berserker class actually requires one to have gone insane during their life, not simply having a 'Berserker-like' fighting style. So...I doubt many Jedi OR Sith qualify for that one.
 
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