Naruto The Official Third Naruto Databook and First Naruto Fanbook Thread

[datakim]

- Kushina's called a "former kunoichi from the Land of Eddies" which makes it sounds like she was already a ninja.

Well, we know this is incorrect from Kushinas flashback.

Also, the revelation that the Uchiha possess the Sage's spiritual energy and chakra fits with how Orochimaru got screwed over when he tried to transplant his soul.

Yep. Its implied that its just sharingan that allows Sasuke to beat Orochimaru, but it would not surprise me if being descended from the Sage helped.

- It mentions that the Sharingan's power is what reminds Kurama of Madara. I wonder if the sinister chakra he referred to was actually within Sasuke's eyes...

Wonder how much Kishi had planned by this point. Kurama should obviously know for example that Sasuke is a descendant of the sage, and if my theory about sharingan and Juubi being connected is accurate, the chakra might well be Juubis.

- The Great Toad Sage's is able to see the future in visions because of his enormous amounts of chakra. And I'm reminded that one of his visions (which are 100% accurate) was that Naruto would fight a young man with powerful eyes. So Naruto vs Sasuke should still be on the horizon.

This seems silly. If true, how is it that Kurama is not having visions? How did Juubi lose, if he could see the future. And so on. I don't buy the idea that just having huge reserves of chakra is enough.

Also, the young man might well be Obito. Its been mentioned before that from the perspective of the GTS, Obito would be young. Heck, even Madara would be young, if Fukasaku is 800 and the GTS is probably a lot older.

- Orochimaru wasn't interested in a Uchiha body as his dream vessel until Itachi kicked his ass. Interesting. I thought he'd already decided and tried it with Itachi.

This is probably wrong. As you say, he goes after Itachi specifically. Itachis eyes are the only thing that makes Itachis body special.

- Danzo surfaces after Naruto returns. What was he doing before?

Not existing?

Though thats probably a way to try and justify Danzo not even being a candidate for Hokageship after Sarutobi died and so on. I guess you could invent a reason. Maybe he was studying how to perform Izanagi or somesuch.

- Yugito became a jinchuuriki at age two. Despite being a target of disdain by training hard through sheer will Yugito gained mastery over her Tailed Beast.

She obviously does not have total mastery, given that her name is never mentioned when it comes to those who became perfect jins. Most likely she was more like Naruto in say three tails.

- Fukasaku's over eight hundred years old.

Yeah. Do we actually know for sure when the sage lived? I always figured a couple thousand years or so (enough for the Juubi to be forgotten and rinnegan to become myth), but is there anything that gives a clearer time table.

- The Uchiha are described as having “enormous chakra” which is slightly different.

Hmm. I thought they had strong chakra, but enormous chakra (or atleast chakra levels) were more Younger Brother/Uzumaki/Senju thing.

-Toads are pretty damn numerous and have various species. I wonder how it is for the slugs and snakes.

Interestingly, the latest chapter suggests that slugs might be low in number. Heck, maybe all slugs are Katsuyu, and when you summon a slug you just summon a split piece of this gigantic super-slug .

-For the Kamui’s page, “the Mangekyou Sharingan can cause blindness if used continuously” which supports the idea that you can avoid it by not overdoing it. Silly Sasuke.

This is obviously nonsense. Itachi was suffering from blindness, and he used his techniques carefully and rarely. Its made pretty clear that MS always causes blindness, how fast just depends on how much you spam it.

Obito is almost certainly protected from that blindness by Senju DNA. As for Kakashi, its possible he is actually going blind. Then again its also possible that the blindness only affects Uchiha, and that Kakashi is ironically safe due to being a non-Uchiha.

- Yamato’s waterfall jutsu creates water from nothing; I thought he used an underground river.

Thats pretty extreme technique then. He could basically create massive floods with that technique. I question the accuracy here.

His improvement was alright, just poorly portrayed and not as good as people wanted. Rather than being shown how much Naruto progressed, were shown that he hadn't progressed enough e.g. he couldn't get the bells of Kakashi, couldn't break Itachi's genjutsu, can't use the Rasengan one-handed etc. Not helped by him being overshadowed by Sakura and Sasuke despite being the main character and not showing anything new other than an unnecessary variation of the Rasengan. Whilst not perfect, One Piece was better in showing the progress of all the main characters after a time skip.

Yeah. He improves, but he does not improve enough considering how quickly he improves post-timeskip. And as you say its not demonstrated enough, with how Naruto keeps losing and failing constantly. Even the fact he still needs a clone to create a rasengan is disappointing as you say. The ease with which he loses to Sasuke also does not help. Its justified in that Naruto is half-dead from his KN4 transformation, but its just one more thing which makes Naruto look horribly weak. I think its basically several things coming together that make Narutos growth disappointing.

- The lack of utterly obvious improvements such as new techniques, one handed rasengans and such.

- The fact he keeps getting his ass handed to him repeatedly. Yes, there are reasons (Itachi for example is insanely good at genjutsu), but Naruto constantly failing at things just makes him look bad.

- The way Sasuke dominates their meeting so utterly, both physically and then entering Narutos mind to suppress Kurama. Again, if you look at everything analytically, Sasukes feats are not truly immense there, but it just makes Naruto look bad and Sasuke and Sasukes growth look massive in comparison.

- The revelation of clone training, and the speed at which Naruto later improves with FRS, SM and later KCM/BM.

- The constant reliance on Kurama, despite the fact that everyone makes it clear how dangerous it is makes it look like thats the only thing Naruto has.

How would it have worked better?

I would have had Naruto capable of using rasengans one handed now. I would also have had Naruto clearly win a couple of battles, even if I had to invent new opponents. I would have had Naruto well on the way to mastering wind (and have him know couple new techniques) (and avoid the whole clone learning thing), and possibly well on his way to studying SM aswell.

I might also have tried to arrange things so that he came off looking more equal to Sasuke in their first meeting.

I might also have had him study fuuinjutsu. Thats a bit debatable. Not sure its really Narutos style. On the other hand, there are several connections written later (Uzumaki, Minato, Jiraiya himself, etc) that would justify Naruto learning sealing.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

She obviously does not have total mastery, given that her name is never mentioned when it comes to those who became perfect jins. Most likely she was more like Naruto in say three tails.

Given she could switch between biju form at will, it's more likely she was at the tug-o-war stage.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

Perhaps it's an unpopular opinion to hold, and it's not one I held at the start of part 2, but if we excuse Jiraiya for not thinking of the 1000 Kage Bunshin training method (due to not being a genius and it probably being a method that no konoha shinobi would have ever been able to use before, possibly even with 1 clone,) then Naruto's growth over the time-skip isn't that appalling.

Better stamina, strength and speed, improved taijutsu, ability to dispel genjutsu, knowledge of fuinjutsu, much improved tactics (when he's not being overly emotional,) the Odama Rasengan and access to 3 tails. It's just that he was fighting S-Class Shinobi now instead of genin like Kiba, Neji or Sasuke. I mean, I think Kakashi could have beat Part 1 Curse Seal level 2 Sasuke, right?

His improvement was alright, just poorly portrayed and not as good as people wanted. Rather than being shown how much Naruto progressed, were shown that he hadn't progressed enough e.g. he couldn't get the bells of Kakashi, couldn't break Itachi's genjutsu, can't use the Rasengan one-handed etc. Not helped by him being overshadowed by Sakura and Sasuke despite being the main character and not showing anything new other than an unnecessary variation of the Rasengan. Whilst not perfect, One Piece was better in showing the progress of all the main characters after a time skip.

I concur. As I said, at the beginning of part 2 I was quite disappointed in Naruto's progress. It was especially galling when Naruto couldn't get the bells off Kakashi when Sasuke was able to touch them in part 1. Looking back now, it's more obvious that Kakashi has improved significantly as well, but at the time... Not being able to break Itachi's genjutsu didn't annoy me that much, considering that it was Itachi, but the lack of one-handed Rasengan bothered a lot of people, didn't it? Still does, really.

Say what now? I thought that was just him getting the 3rd tomoe?

The way Sasuke was manhandling Naruto at the start of the fight (like picking him up and chucking him off the statue) made it look like receiving the second stage had boosted his base stats.

What were Sasuke's physical strength feats prior to that? Ninja are superhuman after all, and part 1 Naruto didn't weight that much.

So why aren't people like Naruto or Kisame getting visions?

There's apparently that much difference in the amount of chakra he had.

I will lose my sh*t if the Great Toad Sage turns out to be Madara's back up plan for the chakra source for the Infinite Tsukuyomi.

Seriously? You'd think Jiraiya would have known more about the time of the Sage of the Six Paths then.

This could mean that the Sage was a myth even from eight hundred years ago. Interesting.

But I thought the Sages's kids were the one's to kick off the Senju-Uchiha feud. If he lived and died over a millennium ago, then the Senju and Uchiha must have been fighting for almost that long. That's insane.

Regarding Kushina, I'm pretty sure a fic, The Girl from Whirlpool, had Kushina having already graduated as a Whirlpool Ninja, but being sent back to the Leaf Academy due to the 2 villages having different graduation standards. In Whirlpool, you didn't have to know the basic 3 to graduate, but Kushina already knew how to use Chakra Flow, a much more advanced technique. Considering how the Uzumaki were famous for sealing jutsu, maybe knowing some basic fuinjutsu was part of Whirlpool's graduation exam.

 

[Knyght]

This seems silly. If true, how is it that Kurama is not having visions? How did Juubi lose, if he could see the future. And so on. I don't buy the idea that just having huge reserves of chakra is enough.

Also, the young man might well be Obito. Its been mentioned before that from the perspective of the GTS, Obito would be young. Heck, even Madara would be young, if Fukasaku is 800 and the GTS is probably a lot older.

Could have simply been that you need enormous chakra reserves to see the future, not that having enormous chakra reserves gives you visions of the future. It's not really explained much anyway. And don't crush my dreams, datakim.

This is probably wrong. As you say, he goes after Itachi specifically. Itachis eyes are the only thing that makes Itachis body special.

I think he originally had a more casual interest in havin Itachi's body because he was young, talented and had a Sharingan but, after that fight, he became genuinely obsessed with attaining those eyes. It might have also lead to him seeking to learn about the Rinnegan and the Sage of Six Paths.

Hmm. I thought they had strong chakra, but enormous chakra (or atleast chakra levels) were more Younger Brother/Uzumaki/Senju thing.

I think they both do rather than it being one or the other. Chakra's the combination of the spiritual and physical energy after all, so they would both be qualified huge quantities but would lean in different directions.

This is obviously nonsense. Itachi was suffering from blindness, and he used his techniques carefully and rarely. Its made pretty clear that MS always causes blindness, how fast just depends on how much you spam it.

I think that's what it meant in the first place.

Thats pretty extreme technique then. He could basically create massive floods with that technique. I question the accuracy here.

Eh, not really. It's mainly for changing the landscape to confuse an enemy as they travel through a location. And creating water from nothing isn't uncommon.

What were Sasuke's physical strength feats prior to that? Ninja are superhuman after all, and part 1 Naruto didn't weight that much.

It was more the way the scene was portrayed, as if Sasuke was suddenly freakishly strong and Naruto was like "wtf?" But I'm just going off of memory. I'll have to recheck the fight to see if I'm not just pulling that out of my ass.

 

[datakim]

I will lose my sh*t if the Great Toad Sage turns out to be Madara's back up plan for the chakra source for the Infinite Tsukuyomi.

Why the heck is the Great Toad Sage not doing something if he has such huge levels of chakra? Sure, he might not be all that great a fighter, but if he is supposed to be that strong, even the most simple techniques should be devastating from this guy. Especially, since he should be a superb SM-master.

But I thought the Sages's kids were the one's to kick off the Senju-Uchiha feud. If he lived and died over a millennium ago, then the Senju and Uchiha must have been fighting for almost that long. That's insane.

I guess its possible that there were times of truce. I don't think its ever totally stated that they fought non-stop.

Considering how the Uzumaki were famous for sealing jutsu, maybe knowing some basic fuinjutsu was part of Whirlpool's graduation exam.

Maybe. But it would be pretty insulting to an ally village to have them send over someone with uniquely special chakra to be YOUR jinchuuriki, and then state that even though she qualified as a genin in her village, she does not qualify as one in Konoha, because Konoha genin are obviously sooo much better that she has to go back to basic academy.

Seems to me that this would have been an obvious snub at Whirlpool, which would seem incredibly stupid thing for Konoha to do, given that they were sealing Kyuubi into her.

Even IF she was totally unqualified, simple politics would suggest you have a jounin tutor her. I think the idea that she had not been anymore trained than any other clan kid who went to the academy makes the most sense.

 

[datakim]

Could have simply been that you need enormous chakra reserves to see the future, not that having enormous chakra reserves gives you visions of the future.

I can accept that. I cannot accept that enormous chakra by default lets you make accurate prophecies. Whatever it is, it is obviously an absurdly unique skill or more likely a toad kekkei genkai. It is worth mentioning that Kurama atleast seems to think the Sage made a prophecy in that flashback he has to when the bijuu were small, and seems to believe that the prophecy referred to Naruto.

I think he originally had a more casual interest in havin Itachi's body because he was young, talented and had a Sharingan but, after that fight, he became genuinely obsessed with attaining those eyes. It might have also lead to him seeking to learn about the Rinnegan and the Sage of Six Paths.

I dunno, Itachi was not THAT young anymore, and Itachis talents would not really transfer to Orochimaru would they (he was taking over the BODY). Actually, correct me if I am wrong, but were Orochimaru and Itachi not partners in Akatsuki? Its possible Orochimaru got his eye obsession from seeing Itachi use sharingan?

I think they both do rather than it being one or the other. Chakra's the combination of the spiritual and physical energy after all, so they would both be qualified huge quantities but would lean in different directions.

Yeah. The whole body vs eyes/spirit separation. Still, generally the younger brothers descendants tend to be more chakra energetic (that is to say, they have more OF chakra due to more stamina). The older brothers tend to have crazy eye powers that more than make up for it though. I would say its quality vs quantity, but then we have examples like Kushina who had special chakra, and also Hashirama.

Actually, I wonder what made Hashirama such a bizarre mutant? I mean he has mokuton, which no other Senju has, and his chakra levels and quality are absolutely insane compared to everyone. So much so that even his cells give superpowers to everyone. What made Hashirama special, when all his siblings/parents/children seem normal Senju.

It was more the way the scene was portrayed, as if Sasuke was suddenly freakishly strong and Naruto was like "wtf?" But I'm just going off of memory. I'll have to recheck the fight to see if I'm not just pulling that out of my ass.

I don't recall this scene really, but it could just be that Sasuke is able to predict Narutos actions so well with the sharingan, that strength no longer matters since Naruto cannot hit Sasuke anymore, whereas Sasuke can see with his eyes how Naruto would block, and go straight through his defenses.

I do clearly remember that the thing which gave Naruto an advantage in KN1 and shifted the battle back in his favor, was that the chakra aura was able to move on its own. There is a scene where KN1 Naruto tries to hit Sasuke, and Sasuke avoids the blow, but Kuramas chakra separates from Narutos hand (which missed) and moves independently to hit Sasuke. And Sasuke thinks that he cannot predict that kind of thing even with 3 tomoes.

That might imply that it was being able to see everything Naruto would do so clearly that suddenly made him so strong? Or did I misunderstand? At what point did Sasuke get the powerboost?

 

[nixofcyzerra]

Seems to me that this would have been an obvious snub at Whirlpool, which would seem incredibly stupid thing for Konoha to do, given that they were sealing Kyuubi into her.

Even IF she was totally unqualified, simple politics would suggest you have a jounin tutor her. I think the idea that she had not been anymore trained than any other clan kid who went to the academy makes the most sense.

Wasn't Whirlpool destroyed around the time Kushina came to Konoha?

It was more the way the scene was portrayed, as if Sasuke was suddenly freakishly strong and Naruto was like "wtf?" But I'm just going off of memory. I'll have to recheck the fight to see if I'm not just pulling that out of my ass.

I don't recall this scene really, but it could just be that Sasuke is able to predict Narutos actions so well with the sharingan, that strength no longer matters since Naruto cannot hit Sasuke anymore, whereas Sasuke can see with his eyes how Naruto would block, and go straight through his defenses.

I do clearly remember that the thing which gave Naruto an advantage in KN1 and shifted the battle back in his favor, was that the chakra aura was able to move on its own. There is a scene where KN1 Naruto tries to hit Sasuke, and Sasuke avoids the blow, but Kuramas chakra separates from Narutos hand (which missed) and moves independently to hit Sasuke. And Sasuke thinks that he cannot predict that kind of thing even with 3 tomoes.

That might imply that it was being able to see everything Naruto would do so clearly that suddenly made him so strong? Or did I misunderstand? At what point did Sasuke get the powerboost?

I remember that. Also, did Naruto even have a good idea of Sasuke's physical strength after he trained to fight Gaara? His speed went up a lot, perhaps his strength did too.

 

[AJ_Katon]

Btw on the subject of physical strength, are we talking not augmented or augmented by chakra?

I know that "Chakra goes with everything" in Naruto but as anything happened by using pure physical strength? Like that time Lee pulled that large pile of rock and earth back in the Chunin Exams against Team Sound?

 

[Knyght]

Nah, you guys are talking about something totally different. I was talking about when Sasuke smacked Naruto around at the start of the fight. But it turns out I was misremembering anyway since he was pulling on his CS1 somewhat; it was more like he was pulling out more power from that form rather his actual base stats getting a boost.

With chakra enhanced strength or not...I don't really know. Unless the chakra's shown or someone mentions it (or its Tsunade/Sakura), it's hard to tell. I could believe that Lee uses chakra enhancement to yank out that tree root but I could also believe that he was just that strong too.

I guess its possible that there were times of truce. I don't think its ever totally stated that they fought non-stop.

The Senju and Uchiha might not have been actual ninja clans for a long while after the Sage's sons were around. They were called the ancestors but weren't necessarily the first Senju and Uchiha. And the feud could have been relatively low-key and it may not have even been all that violent over the following generations but stepped up when the two became warring clans.

I dunno, Itachi was not THAT young anymore, and Itachis talents would not really transfer to Orochimaru would they (he was taking over the BODY). Actually, correct me if I am wrong, but were Orochimaru and Itachi not partners in Akatsuki? Its possible Orochimaru got his eye obsession from seeing Itachi use sharingan?

>20 years old is fairly young, especially for Orochimaru's purposes. And the best ninjas would have the most ideal bodies, not too mention how enamored he is over Sasuke's talents. Even when he is forced to pick a vessel from the prisoners, they choose the one that showed that most battle ability from defeating everyone else.

Databook says straight out that the obsession came from after he was defeated by Itachi. Likely because of the difference between seeing it used against other ninjas and then experiencing it for himself, especially when he's one of the best there is.

Yeah. The whole body vs eyes/spirit separation. Still, generally the younger brothers descendants tend to be more chakra energetic (that is to say, they have more OF chakra due to more stamina). The older brothers tend to have crazy eye powers that more than make up for it though. I would say its quality vs quantity, but then we have examples like Kushina who had special chakra, and also Hashirama.

Does it really work like that? Before I assumed that stamina = physical energy so the amount of physical energy you have is the amount of chakra you can make, whilst the amount of spiritual energy you have is the amount of control you have over that chakra. But the Narutoverse defines stamina as "The mental and physical energies of a shinobi's body joined together which is internally converted into chakra". So they both contribute to the quantity of chakra you have because stamina is defined as the two of them together. So can we really say that the Senju side possess more chakra by having the Sage's physical energy when the Uchiha would be in the same position with spiritual energy?

Maybe the difference it's more to do with the nature of the chakra as it would lean a different way for each clan. So both clans have chakra with special properties by the difference is the kind of properties they possess due one being more physical and the other more spiritual. :hmmm:

Actually, I wonder what made Hashirama such a bizarre mutant? I mean he has mokuton, which no other Senju has, and his chakra levels and quality are absolutely insane compared to everyone. So much so that even his cells give superpowers to everyone. What made Hashirama special, when all his siblings/parents/children seem normal Senju.

I just assume it was a genetic anomaly. He just happened to be born with that perfect little set of genes that granted him an ability that no-one else ever achieved AFAIK. Though whether what's special is the Mokuton itself, Hashirama being a Senju with a Mokuton or if only a Senju could ever have the potential for it is debatable. Mostly I think the Mokuton it very unique and having that ability makes you different since it basically means creating and manipulating life through chakra.

 

[datakim]

With chakra enhanced strength or not...I don't really know. Unless the chakra's shown or someone mentions it (or its Tsunade/Sakura), it's hard to tell. I could believe that Lee uses chakra enhancement to yank out that tree root but I could also believe that he was just that strong too.

Personally, I figure he was enhancing his strength with chakra, because why not? I mean seriously, everyone in the series has superhuman abilities, and its never implied that they are costly in chakra or anything. So what possible motive would Lee (or anyone!) have for NOT using chakra to boost his strength. I would argue that unless its specifically said its not happening, its reasonable to assume that chakra enhancement is happening. Ofcourse not all chakra boosts are equal. Tsunades super strength is obviously far beyond Lee, thanks to her far greater skill in controlling chakra.

Databook says straight out that the obsession came from after he was defeated by Itachi. Likely because of the difference between seeing it used against other ninjas and then experiencing it for himself, especially when he's one of the best there is.

Maybe. I wen't looking for the encounter, but unfortunately there is very little to show. Orochimaru does seem interested in the eyes before, but even more so after he gets pwned.

But here is another question. Why did Itachi let Orochimaru live? I mean this guy is a traitor to Konoha, and there is every reason for Itachi to believe that he would go after Sasukes eyes next. Not to mention that plenty of reason to believe he might try to hurt Konoha. Itachi had the perfect opportunity. He could have killed Orochimaru then and there, and justified it to the other Akatsuki as self-defense for Orochimarus attack.

Since they obviously fully accepted Itachi slicing off Orochimarus hand, they would surely have accepted Orochimarus death too. Why did Itachi let Orochimaru live. The guy was a threat to Sasuke and Konoha, and Itachi had no trouble slaughtering his entire family to protect Konoha. Why did he hesitate to slaughter a monster like Orochimaru? So much misery would have been avoided if Itachi had just sliced off Orochimarus head rather than his hand.

Does it really work like that? Before I assumed that stamina = physical energy so the amount of physical energy you have is the amount of chakra you can make, whilst the amount of spiritual energy you have is the amount of control you have over that chakra.

Maybe, but Naruto shows extreme control over his chakra in the recent chapters where he can match it to anyone (which according to Kurama is an extermely impressive feat). And yet Kurama lacks Yin chakra, and while Naruto has grown up a bit, he is arguably not the most spiritual person around just yet.

So can we really say that the Senju side possess more chakra by having the Sage's physical energy when the Uchiha would be in the same position with spiritual energy?

The trouble is that it seems to be so. Narutos chakra reserves (even without Kurama) for example are much higher than Sasukes thanks to his Uzumaki heritage. And that seems pretty common.

I just assume it was a genetic anomaly. He just happened to be born with that perfect little set of genes that granted him an ability that no-one else ever achieved AFAIK. Though whether what's special is the Mokuton itself, Hashirama being a Senju with a Mokuton or if only a Senju could ever have the potential for it is debatable. Mostly I think the Mokuton it very unique and having that ability makes you different since it basically means creating and manipulating life through chakra.

Curiously Mokuton is something Juubi is capable of using. He might do it while under control from Obito and Madara, but it is the Juubi who fires wooden mokuton stakes from his hands/tails. I have speculated before that sharingan comes from the Juubi, and that the "special chakra" Tobirama spoke of is Juubis.

However it seems that Mokuton too is something that originates from Juubi. That would imply that Hashirama for some reason, had some link/connection to Juubi that no one else had.

Maybe the younger brother inherited mokuton from Juubi, just like the elder brother might have inherited the sharingan, but the younger brother was less worried about the purity of the bloodline so the mokuton was eventually lost, and Hashirama was just a bizarre throwback that for some reason came close to the power-level of the younger brother.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

I just assume it was a genetic anomaly. He just happened to be born with that perfect little set of genes that granted him an ability that no-one else ever achieved AFAIK. Though whether what's special is the Mokuton itself, Hashirama being a Senju with a Mokuton or if only a Senju could ever have the potential for it is debatable. Mostly I think the Mokuton it very unique and having that ability makes you different since it basically means creating and manipulating life through chakra.

What datakim said. Avatism. Hash is closer to the Sot6P's younger son than anybody else.

Maybe, but Naruto shows extreme control over his chakra in the recent chapters where he can match it to anyone (which according to Kurama is an extermely impressive feat). And yet Kurama lacks Yin chakra, and while Naruto has grown up a bit, he is arguably not the most spiritual person around just yet.

I have to disagree with you there. Naruto might not be the most experienced shinobi, but not killing Nagato to break the cycle of hatred shows his wisdom score has gotten pretty high.

 

[Knyght]

PTS Naruto's chakra is actually balanced. Otherwise he wouldn't have been able to master senjutsu. From what Fukasaku says, this is normal for someone who's been creating and using chakra for a while.

I don't think Itachi let Orochimaru live. More likely that Itachi went to kill him but Orochimaru managed to escape, losing a hand in process. Unlike most, he isn't someone who's helpless just by being rendered immobile. And I don't think the Juubi can use the Mokuton. The way I saw it was that Obito was the one using the Mokuton but he was using the Juubi's body and chakra as an amplifier to increase the range and power.

 

[datakim]

PTS Naruto's chakra is actually balanced. Otherwise he wouldn't have been able to master senjutsu. From what Fukasaku says, this is normal for someone who's been creating and using chakra for a while.

That does kinda throw into question whether the whole older brother spiritual inheritance is particularly meaningfull, if its so easy for Naruto who was born with with the "body of the sage" to still achieve equal spirituality to balance things. Then again, given that the older brother inherited the super-hax eyes, I have little problem with the idea that its the eyes that are the biggest inherited power to balance things.

I don't think Itachi let Orochimaru live. More likely that Itachi went to kill him but Orochimaru managed to escape, losing a hand in process. Unlike most, he isn't someone who's helpless just by being rendered immobile.

I dunno, its shown pretty clearly in the flashback that Orochimaru is still there, and still paralyzed after Itachi cuts off the hand. So its not a case of Orochimaru losing a hand while fleeing in a desperate fight, its a case of Orochimaru losing a hand, remaining helpless, and Itachi letting him live after spouting lines about how all Orochimarus techniques are useless before Itachis eyes. Given what we know now, Itachi could have taken down Orochimaru easily with Susanoo and Totsuka, as he ultimately did. Granted, it would have been costly to use Susanoo, but to get rid of Orochimaru?

And I don't think the Juubi can use the Mokuton. The way I saw it was that Obito was the one using the Mokuton but he was using the Juubi's body and chakra as an amplifier to increase the range and power.

If that was the case, should the mokuton not have come from Obito himself? When Obito uses other techniques (such as katon), they come from him, while Juubis techniques (Juubidamas, etc) all seem to come from Juubi. And in this case, it is clearly shown that the mokuton spikes come from the fingers of Juubi, and NOT Obito or Madara. Maybe we will see the final evolution use Mokuton (or not) and somewhat confirm things, but I would argue that things that clearly come from Juubi directly are Juubis powers, even if he was ordered to use them by someone else.

When we add to this other things such as Juubis chakra being basically Natural Energy and sensable only by some in SM, and the flowery thingie on its back, its not all that implausible to me however that Mokuton might come from Juubi too. It might also help explain exactly why Mokuton can so easily disable the bijuu. Perhaps for the same reason that sharingan can so easily put them in a genjutsu? Because like the sharingan, mokuton comes from the "father" of all bijuu and so the bijuu chakra has a special vulnerability to it.

Juubi already turned the weather against the alliance. I think it might be pretty interesting to see Juubi evolve to its final full form, and break free by turning nature and plantlife against the good guys aswell. Hashirama facing someone with mokuton greater than he himself has would be pretty interesting too.

 

[Knyght]

I dunno, its shown pretty clearly in the flashback that Orochimaru is still there, and still paralyzed after Itachi cuts off the hand. So its not a case of Orochimaru losing a hand while fleeing in a desperate fight, its a case of Orochimaru losing a hand, remaining helpless, and Itachi letting him live after spouting lines about how all Orochimarus techniques are useless before Itachis eyes. Given what we know now, Itachi could have taken down Orochimaru easily with Susanoo and Totsuka, as he ultimately did. Granted, it would have been costly to use Susanoo, but to get rid of Orochimaru?

I hadn't noticed the part where he cuts off the Orochimaru's arm. But I think you're assuming too much when we don't see anything that happens after Itachi's taunt. It's more logical to think that Orchimaru escaped (and probably free of that genjutsu thanks to his wound) before Itachi could finish him off.

If that was the case, should the mokuton not have come from Obito himself?

Which is why I said Obito's was using the Juubi's body and not just his chakra. As in, he used the Juubi as a physical medium for the jutsu to massively increase its range and power by taking advantage of his connection with it. And so far he only used any Mokuton when Obito and Madara were attached despite it being useful that'd be pretty damn useful right now (though it's not like we have much idea of how its mind work yet anyway).

It could be revealed later that the Juubi can mess with plant life as well as the weather (which would be kinda cool and you've thrown in some interesting reasoning for it too), but at the moment I'm more inclined to think it came from Obito. And at the moment I'm not sure whether plants are actually linked with natural energy since it's only been said to come from the air, earth and water both times the topic came up. Could be something that Kishi's holding close to his chest for now thanks to Hashirama and his Sage Mode.

 

[datakim]

I hadn't noticed the part where he cuts off the Orochimaru's arm. But I think you're assuming too much when we don't see anything that happens after Itachi's taunt. It's more logical to think that Orchimaru escaped (and probably free of that genjutsu thanks to his wound) before Itachi could finish him off.

Yeah, but the point is why go for the hand in the first place? Why not decapitate Orochimaru? Or just use Tsukuyomi to basically blow up Orochimarus brain. Or ignite him with Amaterasu. Or do what he ultimately did and go Susanoo and seal him away into a bottle with the sword of Totsuka.

Itachi knew Orochimaru was a bizarre genetic freak that had done all sorts of experiments on himself and was a great danger to Sasuke and Konoha. Why did he toy around with Orochimaru and taunt him, rather than going all out?

Which is why I said Obito's was using the Juubi's body and not just his chakra. As in, he used the Juubi as a physical medium for the jutsu to massively increase its range and power by taking advantage of his connection with it. And so far he only used any Mokuton when Obito and Madara were attached despite it being useful that'd be pretty damn useful right now (though it's not like we have much idea of how its mind work yet anyway).

A big maybe from me. We have never seen this happen before in a non-jinchuuriki mode. We shall see I guess.

Could be something that Kishi's holding close to his chest for now thanks to Hashirama and his Sage Mode.

Yeah, Hashirama having what appears to be a unique form of SM and mokuton is suggestive of something. Unless its slug SM, but it does not really look like it to me.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

PTS Naruto's chakra is actually balanced. Otherwise he wouldn't have been able to master senjutsu. From what Fukasaku says, this is normal for someone who's been creating and using chakra for a while.

That does kinda throw into question whether the whole older brother spiritual inheritance is particularly meaningfull, if its so easy for Naruto who was born with with the "body of the sage" to still achieve equal spirituality to balance things. Then again, given that the older brother inherited the super-hax eyes, I have little problem with the idea that its the eyes that are the biggest inherited power to balance things.

The Sot6P declared the younger son his heir, didn't he? Didn't the younger son inherit something else? His dream?

It makes sense to me, if you think of it is this way. Normal people in the narutoverse either lead towards the mental side of things, the physical side of things or balanced.

Ninja, however, are taught to mould chakra. If someone with more spiritual energy than physical tries to mould chakra, then it's harder to get enough physical energy. It's more of a strain, but, like how working a muscle makes it stronger, your physical energy increases. This probably means that those with decent spiritual energy but low physical, like, say, part 1 Sakura, could probably build physical energy and physical stamina just by practising ninjutsu. Their body wouldn't get any stronger or faster (unless the jutsu practise also improves the circulatory system's quality,) but they'd have more energy.

The Sot6P's younger son inherited his excellent life force and physical energy. Ninja descended from him inherit the excellent life force, and therefore live longer (Uzumaki,) heal faster (Uzumaki, apparently,) and don't die as easy (Kushina surviving having Kurama extracted.) They also inherit the physical energy, meaning they have incredible stamina. As those descended from the younger brother continue as shinobi, and gain further experience and wisdom, their spiritual energy grows to match their higher physical energy as they continue to mould chakra.

The Sot6P's older son inherited his eyes (albeit a downgraded version,) his powerful chakra and his spiritual energy. Ninja descended from him have the Sharingan. Now, older son apparently inherited "powerful chakra." We've had sensors in the manga talk about the "feel" or quality of other's chakra before. The older son's descendants also inherit his spiritual energy, which should mean they're... what? Instinctively wise? Somehow act like veterans even as rookies? My personal theory is that the Juubi somehow corrupted the spiritual energy the older son got, and that's why Uchiha have the over-emotional "Yandere curse." Anyway, as those descended from the older brother train their bodies, their physical energy grows to match their higher spiritual energy as they continue to mould chakra.

 

[Knyght]

Yeah, but the point is why go for the hand in the first place? Why not decapitate Orochimaru? Or just use Tsukuyomi to basically blow up Orochimarus brain. Or ignite him with Amaterasu. Or do what he ultimately did and go Susanoo and seal him away into a bottle with the sword of Totsuka.

Itachi knew Orochimaru was a bizarre genetic freak that had done all sorts of experiments on himself and was a great danger to Sasuke and Konoha. Why did he toy around with Orochimaru and taunt him, rather than going all out?

'Cause if everyone went for the kill shot at every opportunity, we've have a smaller cast and a shorter manga. :lol:

For Itachi though, I think it's partly because it's his modus operandi where he focuses on genjutsu and doesn't exactly take the most direct route when dealing with his enemies. Here he went for the hand since Orochimaru was going to make some hand-seals so he deprived him of his jutsu there. His Mangekyou jutsu do require some prep time and are draining (especially the Susanoo in both respects) so he may not have felt it safe to use them. I think he just felt it prudent to take down Orochimaru in parts (immobilise -> take away jutsu -> kill) rather than going for the fastest kill since the man's both skilled and dangerous enough (and just plain freaky in his abilities) to turn the situation around if mishandled.

 

[AJ_Katon]

On the subject of Orochimaru's escape from Itachi, what if in the escape he did something that caused Itachi's illness?

Hear me out. Itachi pawns Orochi but Orochi escapes. Itachi letting him go after that taunt would be stupid because while Itachi is stronger than him, Itachi isn't so smug that he'd let a potentially dangerous Shinobi roam free. However Orochimaru, being a Sannin and going through a heck of a lot more than Itachi has gone through, uses a secret poison that screws with Itachi so much that it not only let's him get away but assures his revenge against the younger man for his defeat?

It's sounds better than it being a plot device disease and we've seen nothing that says the Mango.Sharingan causing anything other than blindness.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

...Didn't Oro plan to use Sasuke's body as a stepping stone to Itachi's at one point? Or is that fanon?

Because unless this secret poison can be cured and the damage it causes to the body reversed, he'd kind of be shooting himself in the foot there.

 

[Altered Nova]

I'm pretty sure that he was planning to keep Sasuke's body but take Itachi's eyes. In which case poisoning Itachi would be pretty smart assuming the poison doesn't damage his eyeballs, it would make it easier to defeat Itachi later or he could even wait for Itachi to die and loot the eyeballs from the corpse.

I kind of like this idea, it never did sit well with me how Itachi apparently curbstomped Orochimaru and then let him go for no apparent reason. Perhaps Orochimaru faked weakness to make Itachi lower his guard and used the chance to stealthily poison him.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

Most likely, Itachi left Orochimaru go so he could become interested in Sasuke and make him stronger.
Yeah, yeah, sounds stupid, but it's EXACTLY what Itachi did most of the time.

 

[datakim]

I'm pretty sure that he was planning to keep Sasuke's body but take Itachi's eyes. In which case poisoning Itachi would be pretty smart assuming the poison doesn't damage his eyeballs, it would make it easier to defeat Itachi later or he could even wait for Itachi to die and loot the eyeballs from the corpse.

I kind of like this idea, it never did sit well with me how Itachi apparently curbstomped Orochimaru and then let him go for no apparent reason. Perhaps Orochimaru faked weakness to make Itachi lower his guard and used the chance to stealthily poison him.

Kabuto implies that he and Orochimaru figured out or atleast suspected the connection between rinnegan and EMS, and that you could awaken rinnegan if you had the eyes of older brother (EMS) and the body of the younger brother (Senju DNA).

So its likely to me that after taking over Sasuke, he would have awakened Sasukes MS somehow. I wonder who Orochimaru would care enough about that killing them would awaken MS. Kabuto seems the most likely option. After that, he would then have taken Itachis eyes and got EMS. After that, he could have done what Madara did and implant Hashiramas DNA to try and awaken the rinnegan.

Ofcourse we still don't know what was the final trigger that caused Madaras EMS to finally turn to rinnegan. Near death experience? NE? Time? What?

 

[ankokudaishogun]

Of course we still don't know what was the final trigger that caused Madaras EMS to finally turn to rinnegan

Apparently, true despair(possibly for prolonged time). What Madara must have felt when he realized he was at the end of his life and everything he did was for nothing as he never managed to awake the rinnegan...

Also, I suspect Orochimaru would just find the right chemical compound to make the Sharingan evolve into Mangekyō. It's more his style.

Also, it's possible he would simply take Itachi's eyes and use THEM as base for the Eternal Mangekyō(as it seems it's not necessary for both pair of eyes being Mangekyō for the evolution to happen)

 

[Altered Nova]

Attaining the Rinnegan was probably more of a pipe dream for Orochimaru, something he'd figure out eventually since he's immortal and has all the time in the world anyway. He probably didn't know any specifics about awakening it beyond it being connected to the Sharingan and Hashirama's DNA in some way. I always got the impression that his immediate plan that he'd actually worked out concrete steps for attaining was to get a Mangekyou Sharingan by taking Sasuke's body and either killing Kabuto or evolving it artificially, and then implant Hashirama's DNA into his body to negate the blindness side-effect same as Obito did. Attaining an Eternal Mangekyou from Itachi would be a nice bonus but it wasn't necessary.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

also, he was already an S-class monster without the Sharingan, so he wouldn't need to use the Mangekyō much in first place, therefore postponing the blindness