The Wheel Of Time

[Ashaman]

As I continue to be absorbed by ToM, something occurs to me.

The first is those bubbles of Evil that animate weapons? Yeah, Mat would die so fast if one of those hit him.

The second is Egwene - While her actions to oppose Rand are annoying, I can understand them. What bothers me is that the people she tells don't understand the full picture.

Rand explained that he needed to clear the rubble away before he could reseal the Bore.

Egwene doesn't tell anyone this. And what's worse - I'm not sure if its an honest mistake or an intentional ommission in order to manipulate.

She tells people that he plans to destory the Seals, but has completely missed the fact that he has a very good reason for doing so.

Basically, I think its going to epically blow up in her face when Rand explains that not only is it wise to fight the Last Battle on their terms, but also neccessary for the Seals to be gone for the resealing of the Bore.

I don't know - I have this weird feeling that Egwene's plans to gather opposion from people Rand trusts is either going to epically hurt her and Rand both, or play right into Rand's hands as an effect of his Ta'verenness that she wasn't even aware she was being influenced by.

 

[grant]

Mat's luck would probably mean that the bubble would be attracted his ta'verenness, but then bounce back to some gathering of Dark friends and turn them all into chickens.

 

[Ashaman]

This book has some amazing lines -

"You stopped Balefire!"

"Its just a weave."

I am now wondering who could bitchslap the other in the World of Dreams quicker, Egwene or Perrin.

I mean, Perrin might have been visiting for a long period of time, but Egwene has spent more time training.

On the other hand, Perrin has trained harsher than she, and there is nothing that screams "Winner!" louder than someone thinking "I am a wolf; I am the ruler of this place."

Oh, and the other great line?

"I caught a badger. Want to let it go on the village green?"

 

[seitora]

Wait, did you finish the book yet?

 

[Ashaman]

Wait, did you finish the book yet?

When you asked me that, the answer would be no.

The answer now?

YES.

Like, 30 seconds ago.

 

[Ashaman]

First of all - Black Tower. Yeah, WTF it going on in there.

Caccoon people?

Where the fuck is Logain. I haven't seen him in ages.

Dark Rand - Yeah, fuck that, do not want.

Jesus Rand - I admit, he warmed up to me. I wasn't convinced at first when he literally started pointing out DF's and it being sunshine where ever he went, but the fact that he still feels anger, and hatred, and sorrow and a whole host of other things enhears me to him.

Perrin was pretty fucking great in TOM, though his appearence in GS wasn't exactly great. Perrin vs Slayer was amazing, and really showed what true control of the WoD means. Sure, Egwene and the WO's spend much of their time in that place, but at the same time I've always felt that their uses of it are focused in specific areas and lacking in others. I think this is the first time that the WO's have used it to fight - honestly, I'm wondering what they were doing. Watching a true master at work is always an amazing experience, and I would like to see it.

By the same token, I would have wanted more focus on the WO's reactions to Perrin regarding him being a DreamWalker, which the ones with him have very obviously figured out.

IIRC, they know in theory men can do it, but have never met one besides the Forsaken.

It would have been interesting to see their reaction. Fear for Perrin's safety? Curiousity? Affrount? Protectiveness of thier Domain or of Perrin?

 

[Ashaman]

Moving on - Elayne - Yeah, while I understand pretty much everything she did here, even if it was FUCKING STUUUUUUUUPID!!!!!


I understand her desire to have a monopoly on the Dragons... but they are Mat's, and she sees them as her own.

She needed information on the Blacks.... and so disguised herself as a member of the Forsaken in order to get that info. And then does little with that information. Relatedly, it dawns on me that the bulk of the Light Side forces have Zero clue just how phenomenonly important Mat and Perrin actually are.

I mean, RPM kinda know, to one degree or another, however little they like/accept it, but its a very fresh reminder that most others actually don't know about this.

And that shocked me.

And then she failed to mention to Mat that she lost a copy of his Medallion.


Nyneave - continues to be Freaking Awesome. She provided a Moral Check on Rand when he was Broken, listened to Rand's reasoning when he explained the Bore thing instead of dismissing it out of hand, Healed Madness , then basically said Fuck Off to the Aes Sedai testing her much harder than they should have, the Spiteful bitches, and then continued to stick up for Rand to Egwene and Suine.

Bless my soul I love that woman. And I get the feeling that a good Chunk of the Black Tower will learn to love her too.

 

[grant]

I'm disappointed with the healing-madness thing same way I was with the severing-healing thing. You can say that it's magic and that in the time between Lews' time and Rand's the channelers have managed to accomplish some things that their ancestors thought were impossible, but to go this far?
If they really wanted us to know just how good a healer Nynaeve is they could have just had her healing delicate physical cases with it being clear just how bad the damage was. They did that a few times with other Yellows.

On Mat, Elayne did hear Moraine point out how important Mat was... and then she kinda just completely forgot about that even when he showed up at the rebel camp with his own army. Siuan and Moraine appear to have a good idea of how important the other two are, it just hasn't really sunk in anyone else's head unless they're actively serving under the two.
And Elayne still has a vastly inflated sense of how much control she has. She was lucky with Perrin, he could have flatly said 'no, this land belongs to us, we lived there, we fought for it when Andor did nothing, we have a standing force quite capable of mauling any royal armies and we're close with the Dragon Reborn, a.k.a. the Only Guy Whose Opinion Matters and you don't have the time with The Last Battle coming to complain'. If not for Morgase and Perrin not deciding to push it the way she was it could have ended poorly for her.

 

[seitora]

On that note, now that you're done ToM, remember when I was saying "Don't Worry" about Egwene having stopped being a bitch for a while?

How about restraining Perrin in the World of Dreams while Mesaana is running around. How's that for character?

Also, Mat was totally boss with finally defeating the gholam.

 

[Ashaman]

I'm disappointed with the healing-madness thing same way I was with the severing-healing thing. You can say that it's magic and that in the time between Lews' time and Rand's the channelers have managed to accomplish some things that their ancestors thought were impossible, but to go this far?
If they really wanted us to know just how good a healer Nynaeve is they could have just had her healing delicate physical cases with it being clear just how bad the damage was. They did that a few times with other Yellows.

I can understand your point, but would like to counter it with this.

Severing - Nyneave kept trying when no one else ever did. I know she did it mostly by accident, but as I've mentioned before, instinctive uses of the Power are, if not common, then at the very least not rare.

And for someone whose primary Talent is Healing, for her to be inventing Healing weaves is pretty expected in that climate where new knowledge and Talents are springing up like Wildfire.

As for the Madness - I actually find it more believeable the way it was presented and somewhat built up toward.

Through Moghedian, Nyneave had knowledge/experience with Compulsion.

Through opposing Grendael, she learned to examine the mind, the brain, and detect outside forces on it, and how to remove them.

Then through the Asha'man, she put that experience together.

If it was Madness madness, I'd agree, but this is Taint induced madness.

-------------------------

As for Mat and Egwene; well, I have a lot to say about those 2, but I going to have to leave it for the morning.

 

[seitora]

A lot of Talents are popping back up in the time of the books, such as the ability to create ter'angreal (Elayne) and create cuendillar (Egwene, Leane). Similarly, however, there's also some entirely new stuff that's never happened before (one of the Forsaken remarks that there was no such thing as the Warder bonding back in the AoL), hence Nynaeve being able to heal Stilling.

 

[ttestagr]

As far as healing madness, we knew it could be done from the first 10 pages of the series. We see Ishamael do it while claiming an Age of Legends Aes Sedai could do it as well, though in far different a manner.

 

[evilplushie]

Kind of makes you wonder why they didn't just keep healing the mad aes sedai then. Instead of letting them go all the way bonkers, just heal them when they're like ...50% bonkers. Or 30%.

 

[seitora]

Taint-induced madness presumably isn't the same as regular madness. Ishy could do it because he's Ishy.

 

[grant]

As far as healing madness, we knew it could be done from the first 10 pages of the series.? We see Ishamael do it while claiming an Age of Legends Aes Sedai could do it as well, though in far different a manner.

I presumed that was because he was Ishamael with a direct link to the big DO. That's the guy who can heal (or at least undo) death. It seems to me that breaking the rules is his thing.
Also he, Semirhage, Moghedion and Graendal all had literally centuries of experience and experimentation. Nynaeve has barely a few years.

Severing - Nyneave kept trying when no one else ever did. I know she did it mostly by accident, but as I've mentioned before, instinctive uses of the Power are, if not common, then at the very least not rare

Which also never really made sense to me. This is a condition that affects female channelers as well, nearly always ends with their deaths and is generally considered to be worse than death. Humans spent tens of millennia in RL learning and relearning how to deal with lesser injuries and diseases but people just stopped trying to figure out how to heal something as painful as this?

 

[Ashaman]

Also he, Semirhage, Moghedion and Graendal all had literally centuries of experience and experimentation. Nynaeve has barely a few years.

But none of them has ever even had to think about healing Taint induced madness, barring Ishy - and yeah, he gets a by here.

Oh, and direct quote

"You can Heal madness?"

"I think I did so in Naeff."

"You never cease to... Nyneave, do you realize that the most Talented of Healers during the Age of Legends had difficulty with diseases of the mind? Many belieaved it was not possible to Heal madness with the One Power."

Had difficulty - meaning that they had some success.

Which also never really made sense to me. This is a condition that affects female channelers as well, nearly always ends with their deaths and is generally considered to be worse than death. Humans spent tens of millennia in RL learning and relearning how to deal with lesser injuries and diseases but people just stopped trying to figure out how to heal something as painful as this?

With enough failures? Yes. By the AoL, it was common knowledge that Severing is permenant.

In the current times, it was considered cruel to keep a Severed person around rather than let them wonder off and die, both for the Severed and any chaneller around them.

So bascially you have anyone attempting it going against Common Knewledge (rare), a patient who probably doesn't want to be reminded of what they've lost, and a doctor who doesn't want to be around a reminded of what they could lose.

In the face of xx failures, they are going to stop trying.

And who knows? X000 years ago, they may have had a way to cure Severing. It was just forgotton - eventually Fact became rumour, and then rumour became legend, and then legend became myth, until eventually the knowledge that it was possible at all is forgotton.

Basically, what I am saying is - 999 people may have tried and failed before, dissuading everyone else, but as it turns out the 1000th person got it, simply because she decided that it could be done.

 

[Belgarion213]

There is also, I would gather, the lack of subjects.

Think about it, Severing is reserved for the most drastic of crimes. Treason against the White Tower, or made by a horrific mistake in channeling. It's very very rare. The most 'common' 'severed' people for practice to be done are...are the male channelers who get severed in the white Tower, and well 'healing' them is just going to have you gentle them again, where healing women, your either 'trying to heal traitors...and heaven help you if you succeed' or your dong it to people who make horrific mistakes and yet don't die in burning themselves out.


Also remember that there was healing of the 'tainted madness of hte male Aes Sedai', its kind of what they needed to make the Eye of the World IIRC. It's just it was in no way 'easy', and as Ishy pointed out, the mad aes sedai would probably rip apart those who were trying to heal them unless they could lock them down to do it. More to the point, the tainitng would probably drive them back insane fairly quickly, unless they were gentled...which is probably what a lot of them WERE, or kiling themselves.

 

[evilplushie]

Re-reading the books reminded me how much I frigging loathe the damn seanchen. It's like every single character from seanchen is extremely annoying. Even during ToM and after having met Rand and so on, they're still plotting on taking down the WT. The world would be much better off if after TG, the channelers just balefired the empire off the map

 

[Ashaman]

Re-reading the books reminded me how much I frigging loathe the damn seanchen. It's like every single character from seanchen is extremely annoying. Even during ToM and after having met Rand and so on, they're still plotting on taking down the WT. The world would be much better off if after TG, the channelers just balefired the empire off the map

The thing about the Seanchen is that, as an institution, they are a mixed bag.

They are actually good rulers, and apart from the whole Damane thing, no one under their rule would complain about them, except maybe to gripe that the rules and bowing an such are a little over the top.

Of course, there is the whole Damane thing. And Da'vacole or whatever its called - the slavery, which honestly seems like a punishment thing IIRC.

On the other hand, on an individual basis - the Seanchen people are actually pretty cool. I mean, not all of them, obviously, but the majority of those we have seen are just like regular people.

 

[ttestagr]

Ishamael outright says the women of the Age of Legends could have healed Lews Therin, if he had let any of them live long enough to do so. Which he didn't. There really isn't anything ambiguous about this, just that Lews Therin's level of madness couldn't be healed permanently. Which fits with what happened when Nynaeve tried it on Rand.

 

[grant]

I took from that that madness couldn't be healed properly except for Ishamael's connection to DO, that anything a regular human did on their own wouldn't hold.

As for the Seanchan. I don't know. I obviously have no idea why Jordan introduced them in the first place. They first appeared before anime started to get popular so it wasn't like the Tau in Warhammer 40k. Did he want some kind of faction that was drastically outside of Western fantasy norms the same way he tried with the Aiel? In any case I always felt that the scenes with them were some of the weakest (and I'm really irritated we don't actually get to see the heroes wipe them out at Falme) until it was simply Mat and Tuon. Beyond that they're a bunch of people who seem to be around to cause more problems, fight everyone while Last Battle is approaching and be obvious that they either interpreted their prophecies horribly or the prophecies were outright altered.

 

[evilplushie]

As a whole, the Seanchen empire seems like a greedy expansive one that focuses on war war and more war. Kinda like the aiel but the aiel fight each other most of the time. Seanchen rulers just seems to want everyone to bow down to them.

It's even more annoying when in ToM the new empress Tuon decides 'hey, fuck the dragon reborn, we're the blood of arthur hawkwing, who gives a crap about TG?? Oh, and let's go conquer the WT'

 

[Ashaman]

fight everyone while Last Battle is approaching and be obvious that they either interpreted their prophecies horribly or the prophecies were outright altered.

Yeah, but I'm not particularly sure about that.

Simply because "Bind the daughter of the Nine Moons" is no longer possible because Tuon is the Empress now.

Unless Mat has already done that part for him.

So I'm not entirely sure how its going to work one way or the other.

You are right that alteration of some form or another has occured, but how much is a question, and on which side as well.

And I actually enjoy the Seanchen, because they are a wild card, their continued agressive actions actually do make sense from their own knowledge, and hell, if they came 100 years ago to conquer the Dark One may have found a surprisingly unified nation.

 

[grant]

You think it's a coincidence that they decided to do this now? Ishamael = Ultimate Troll. Either that or the Pattern is an even bigger Troll just because it wanted the story to have more enemies.

And I thought that the binding was Mat marrying Tuon.

 

[Ashaman]

You think it's a coincidence that they decided to do this now? Ishamael = Ultimate Troll. Either that or the Pattern is an even bigger Troll just because it wanted the story to have more enemies.

And I thought that the binding was Mat marrying Tuon.

Its definately the Patterrn thats the Troll. I mean, look wha it did to Mat and Perrin.