The Wheel Of Time
- Thread starter Ashaman
- Start date
Its been about 7 years, maybe closer to 8, since I first and last read KOD; so sue me if I can't remember exactly what happens to her, except that life shits on her because Karma is a bitch like that.
Things I do remember from this novel;
Egwene is made novice again(snerk) and spends much of her time comforting and gaining the respect of novices and Accepted.
Mat does... something... earning Tuons respect, and she marries him. Oh, and he battles the Seanchen.
Perrin uses forkroot to rescue his wife.
Rand loses a hand and captures Semirhage, which is all kinds of fucked up because its Semirhage who is liable to spend her time mind fucking her torturers. For shits and giggles.
And the Black Hunters do something... but I can't remember what, except I remember going "Wow" when I first read it.
So, its like the main points/plot climaxes, but I do not know how we get to those places.
Things I do remember from this novel;
Egwene is made novice again(snerk) and spends much of her time comforting and gaining the respect of novices and Accepted.
Mat does... something... earning Tuons respect, and she marries him. Oh, and he battles the Seanchen.
Perrin uses forkroot to rescue his wife.
Rand loses a hand and captures Semirhage, which is all kinds of fucked up because its Semirhage who is liable to spend her time mind fucking her torturers. For shits and giggles.
And the Black Hunters do something... but I can't remember what, except I remember going "Wow" when I first read it.
So, its like the main points/plot climaxes, but I do not know how we get to those places.
So, as much as Elaida is an incompetent megalomaniac bitch (I mean, she had the King of Illian kidnapped simply to show off) the way she actually gets down to business in chapter 2 is surprising, and even shows, :jawdrop: forethought and planning for the good of the Tower.
I still don't like her, but now at least I can tell you that Alviarin was really fucking her up.
Oh, and chapter 3 confirms what I figured out earlier - the other Forsaken had no clue who Mat and Perrin were. well, at the very least the chapter ends with Moridin showing the two boys as WoDream illusions and telling the others to kill them, and soon.
Aran'gar (his/her POV) indicates that she doesn't know them.
Greandael laughs, and says finding them will be difficult, while Semirhage tells Moridin that he should have told them this earlier.
I can only conclude that at least some of the Chosen didn't know, maybe all but Ishy and Lanfear.
EDIT: I changed my mind. Semirhage's comment is actually "So that is what they look like. Who knows, Moridin. If you had shared this with us before now, they might already have been dead."
So they knew Mat and Perrin, but not in any way they could be recognised as such, even if one of them were to, say, walk into a room where there is a meeting among high level Lords.
I still don't like her, but now at least I can tell you that Alviarin was really fucking her up.
Oh, and chapter 3 confirms what I figured out earlier - the other Forsaken had no clue who Mat and Perrin were. well, at the very least the chapter ends with Moridin showing the two boys as WoDream illusions and telling the others to kill them, and soon.
Aran'gar (his/her POV) indicates that she doesn't know them.
Greandael laughs, and says finding them will be difficult, while Semirhage tells Moridin that he should have told them this earlier.
I can only conclude that at least some of the Chosen didn't know, maybe all but Ishy and Lanfear.
EDIT: I changed my mind. Semirhage's comment is actually "So that is what they look like. Who knows, Moridin. If you had shared this with us before now, they might already have been dead."
So they knew Mat and Perrin, but not in any way they could be recognised as such, even if one of them were to, say, walk into a room where there is a meeting among high level Lords.
Rahvin certainly didn't. Not that this is surprising considering that the man was only good at Compelling people and not much else.
And yeah. Why didn't anyone tell them what the two looked like much earlier? I can understand why Rand hasn't told anyone what the Forsaken look like, even if he remembered that doesn't mean much when any of them can change their appearance to whatever they want. Mat and Perrin? Not so understandable.
And yeah. Why didn't anyone tell them what the two looked like much earlier? I can understand why Rand hasn't told anyone what the Forsaken look like, even if he remembered that doesn't mean much when any of them can change their appearance to whatever they want. Mat and Perrin? Not so understandable.
Oh God. I just realized that Mat did it twice.
I was refering to when Mat walked in on Semirhage, Suroth and Tuon, but he did it in SR to Rahvin as well, didn't he?
While you are quite right that they should have been shown earlier, I get the feeling that Ishmmael and Lanfear were the only ones to actually know, and since Ishy is described insane by other Forsaken (plus, you know, dead for about a year), and Lanfear wasn't exactly playing nice with the other Chosen...
Still though, yeah, they should've been shown.
I was refering to when Mat walked in on Semirhage, Suroth and Tuon, but he did it in SR to Rahvin as well, didn't he?
While you are quite right that they should have been shown earlier, I get the feeling that Ishmmael and Lanfear were the only ones to actually know, and since Ishy is described insane by other Forsaken (plus, you know, dead for about a year), and Lanfear wasn't exactly playing nice with the other Chosen...
Still though, yeah, they should've been shown.
The Dragon Reborn actually. When he sneaks his way into Morgase's court (security's pretty poor if two people manage the exact same thing via the exact same route) and overheard Rahvin (as fake lord Gaebril) order a man to kill Elayne. He nearly told Morgase about it until Rahvin, in his usual incompetence, ordered him to be silent (and tipped him off that the man next to Morgase was actually Gaebril)*.
Anyway Ishy and Lanfear had to have been told somehow. My suspicion. The Dark One is such a troll he trolls his own side. Just because he can.
*And Thom's brilliant solution to this was to start a rumor. Because apparently Morgase hears every rumor and knows how to pick them apart. In a series where it generally has constant mention of how completely unreliable rumors are. I'll be generous and attribute it to Thom recovering from excessive drinking.
Anyway Ishy and Lanfear had to have been told somehow. My suspicion. The Dark One is such a troll he trolls his own side. Just because he can.
*And Thom's brilliant solution to this was to start a rumor. Because apparently Morgase hears every rumor and knows how to pick them apart. In a series where it generally has constant mention of how completely unreliable rumors are. I'll be generous and attribute it to Thom recovering from excessive drinking.
Sorry, you're right. DR.
I think Ishy knew because he'd been tracking them since the beginning.
And Lanfear? She spent the first half of GH stalking Rand.
As for Thom - while its true its just a rumor, Thom and co weren't expecting Compulsion.
Morgase is actually (supposed to be) fairly skilled at the Game of Houses, and a competent ruler. If there is a rumor that her boyfriend wants Elayne dead, she'd hear it, and at least kept it in her mind.
IIRC, the idea behind the rumor wasn't to actually accuse Gabrael; only to serve as a slap in the face to Morgase. You know, a wake up call that her lover might not have her best interest at heart.
And its not like the rumor had to spead cross-country. Only through the city.
True, its a very shaky plan to start with, but if Morgase wasn't mind-fucked, I think its possibly she might have picked up on it.
I think Ishy knew because he'd been tracking them since the beginning.
And Lanfear? She spent the first half of GH stalking Rand.
As for Thom - while its true its just a rumor, Thom and co weren't expecting Compulsion.
Morgase is actually (supposed to be) fairly skilled at the Game of Houses, and a competent ruler. If there is a rumor that her boyfriend wants Elayne dead, she'd hear it, and at least kept it in her mind.
IIRC, the idea behind the rumor wasn't to actually accuse Gabrael; only to serve as a slap in the face to Morgase. You know, a wake up call that her lover might not have her best interest at heart.
And its not like the rumor had to spead cross-country. Only through the city.
True, its a very shaky plan to start with, but if Morgase wasn't mind-fucked, I think its possibly she might have picked up on it.
But when did Lanfear find out? She admitted later that she hadn't known who he was until well past his youth. It's possible that she found out where he was after it was announced that the Dragon had killed Aginor and Balthamel (whenever that was) but that doesn't tell us why she was the only one to find him and none of the others who would want to take out their competition early.
Ishamael makes sense. He was the weird, crazy one with powers and knowledge that even the other Forsaken didn't have. Lanfear makes sense if she really would have a way of detecting which one was Lews Therin reborn. That the others wouldn't find out doesn't make much sense.
Ishamael makes sense. He was the weird, crazy one with powers and knowledge that even the other Forsaken didn't have. Lanfear makes sense if she really would have a way of detecting which one was Lews Therin reborn. That the others wouldn't find out doesn't make much sense.
Well Ishmael was stalking all three in there dreams all through EoTW, not sure which was the Dragon at the time. Then at the start of the Great Hunt he told all those Dark Friends all about his plans, plans that not even the Dark Friends in places could know about, the compulsion being made in such a way that they would be unaware of some of the instructions (which is a seriously awesome technique that I don't think is ever revisited).
Lanfear Probably recognized Rand and Perrian over Mat, simply because Rand and Perrian were trooping around Tel'Aran'Rhiod. (Egwene had that weird conversation with Rand on the way to the Stone of Tear where Rand was half alseep, and there were a few others.) I forget who was spying on the Forsaken's meeting. Perrian of course was denying he was a wolf brother trooping around the Wolf Dream which is the same thing. Lanfear has always insisted that the world of dream's is her world (Despite apparently Moghedan being more skilled there or something) so she might have picked up on them. There was of course her stalking Rand in the Great Hunt.
However yes Ishmael and Lanfear are the most likely Forsaken to know them. (I GUESS if they remembered Aringor and Bhaemal before being reincarnated might have recognized them from the EoTW but not sure how much they remembered there.)
The Dark One being a massive troll is almost assured, what we have of his 'appearances' mostly in LoC is almost amusing in a way just fucking over everybody for the sheer joy of douchebaggery.
Also I see no way going and forcibably warder bonding the followers of the insanely powerful Male channeler your convinced is insane and binding them to your will could in any way backfire. I'm sure Rand wont hold your followrs folding him up n a box and beating him for shits and giggles is in no way going to backfire!
(Hmm...that reminds me, did we ever get a scene where Gawyn realizes Rand DIDN'T kill his mother and reconciles his 'hah fuck you buddy' while Rand was being beaten? or is that going to go down in Memory of Light?) '
Lanfear Probably recognized Rand and Perrian over Mat, simply because Rand and Perrian were trooping around Tel'Aran'Rhiod. (Egwene had that weird conversation with Rand on the way to the Stone of Tear where Rand was half alseep, and there were a few others.) I forget who was spying on the Forsaken's meeting. Perrian of course was denying he was a wolf brother trooping around the Wolf Dream which is the same thing. Lanfear has always insisted that the world of dream's is her world (Despite apparently Moghedan being more skilled there or something) so she might have picked up on them. There was of course her stalking Rand in the Great Hunt.
However yes Ishmael and Lanfear are the most likely Forsaken to know them. (I GUESS if they remembered Aringor and Bhaemal before being reincarnated might have recognized them from the EoTW but not sure how much they remembered there.)
The Dark One being a massive troll is almost assured, what we have of his 'appearances' mostly in LoC is almost amusing in a way just fucking over everybody for the sheer joy of douchebaggery.
Also I see no way going and forcibably warder bonding the followers of the insanely powerful Male channeler your convinced is insane and binding them to your will could in any way backfire. I'm sure Rand wont hold your followrs folding him up n a box and beating him for shits and giggles is in no way going to backfire!
(Hmm...that reminds me, did we ever get a scene where Gawyn realizes Rand DIDN'T kill his mother and reconciles his 'hah fuck you buddy' while Rand was being beaten? or is that going to go down in Memory of Light?) '
We continue -
Perrin enters the scene, making a deal with the Seanchen.
And he gets mentioned as in the Prophecies.
"When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known. When the fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown"
So Perrin gets mentioned, and Mat gets a second mention.
I wonder if Perrin has a second mention too?
Anyway, a deal with the Seanchen in a exchange for him laying down his right to raise Manetherens Banner, but I have no clue how that is going to work considering the Seanchen officer was willing to hand the thing back because their plan was screwed, and they are using Perrin's now.
Then we swing toward Faile, who is carrying on as best as possible. Her own leige men and women are growing, she's got the Oath Rod, and she's escaped numerous rape attempts.
Oh, and Galina gets well and truly battered. I actually feel a little sorry for her. But only a little.
Then we swing by to Mat, who is falling for Tuon for real, and Tuon is seemingly doing the same.
Oh, and Mat spanking an Aes Sedai for being foolish enough to channel when Seanchen are near by. Yeah, that shit feels good.
Perrin enters the scene, making a deal with the Seanchen.
And he gets mentioned as in the Prophecies.
"When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known. When the fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown"
So Perrin gets mentioned, and Mat gets a second mention.
I wonder if Perrin has a second mention too?
Anyway, a deal with the Seanchen in a exchange for him laying down his right to raise Manetherens Banner, but I have no clue how that is going to work considering the Seanchen officer was willing to hand the thing back because their plan was screwed, and they are using Perrin's now.
Then we swing toward Faile, who is carrying on as best as possible. Her own leige men and women are growing, she's got the Oath Rod, and she's escaped numerous rape attempts.
Oh, and Galina gets well and truly battered. I actually feel a little sorry for her. But only a little.
Then we swing by to Mat, who is falling for Tuon for real, and Tuon is seemingly doing the same.
Oh, and Mat spanking an Aes Sedai for being foolish enough to channel when Seanchen are near by. Yeah, that shit feels good.
The curious tale of Mat courting Tuon continues, dealing with annoying women and slowly winning approval...
Yeah, Moraine's letter.
Shit, Moraine's a good planner. If only she had this much foresight when she was with Rand.
Well, unless she is holding tons of crap back, then maybe not.
And I wouldn't want Tuon bent over his knee - she's too cool that.
Wrong ideas about people and slavery, but on a one to one personal basis, I like her.
Yeah, Moraine's letter.
Shit, Moraine's a good planner. If only she had this much foresight when she was with Rand.
Well, unless she is holding tons of crap back, then maybe not.
And I wouldn't want Tuon bent over his knee - she's too cool that.
Wrong ideas about people and slavery, but on a one to one personal basis, I like her.
I vaguely recall it and remember that it doesn't last for very much. But not much other than that.
EDIT: I was just looking up one of the WoT info wikis and saw that Mat had four sisters. Only two of them are named, and only Bodewhin actually does anything in the story. I would have expected maybe some more background on the other three sisters given that Mat shares the same adversity with harming and killing women and how having four sisters influences that.
Perrin has two sisters and a brother and they rank similar exposure. After they're mentioned as being killed in TSR his entire family doesn't seem to warrant another mention.
But at least that saves us on some angst, I guess?
EDIT: I was just looking up one of the WoT info wikis and saw that Mat had four sisters. Only two of them are named, and only Bodewhin actually does anything in the story. I would have expected maybe some more background on the other three sisters given that Mat shares the same adversity with harming and killing women and how having four sisters influences that.
Perrin has two sisters and a brother and they rank similar exposure. After they're mentioned as being killed in TSR his entire family doesn't seem to warrant another mention.
But at least that saves us on some angst, I guess?
I missed 2 days and you guys are already wondering what happened to me.
I feel loved.
but nah, I just went out friday night, then spent saturday at a mates house.
We watched Fellowship of the Ring and Two Towers in prep for the Hobbit. I'll prob make time for Return of the King at some point too.
Oh, and while I'm on the subject - yeah, watching LotR when in the middle of rereading WOT is a sure fire way for flashbacks.
Where was I....
Ah, I remember now.
We finish the whole Mat/Tuon thing with Tuon insisting on being taken to a Hell, basically a tavern where the lowest of the low hang out.
Of course, Mat and Thom are like, "No" and take her to a place and call it a Hell.
Seeing Tuon be all blunt and Mat keep panicking over it is amusing.
And then 9+ guys try and kill Mat in the alleyway out side.
He kills 8 of them by himself, but hesitates over the 9th, a woman, who Tuon finishes for him.
Most likely they were Darkfriends, come to kill Mat when the opportunity presented itself.
Then we move onto Perrin; who is singlemindedly hounding after his wife.
A man bursting into beetles - unimportant, the beetles can be crushed under his boot = not worth his time.
And more the same.
And then two arrows get shot at him, and Perrin is like, yeah, get this arrow shaft out of my arm, I've got a wife to save.
Then we leave Perrin for Elayne.... yeah, its pretty boring altogether. Sure, things happen, like Aviendha leaving, but evn at the end I'm thinking - has this story really, actually advanced in these 80 pages?
After that, we have Rand. He's being tightlipped about his experiences, and he's focused on his plans for Tarmon Gai'don.
Then Loial gets married, his wife turns out to actually be cool, and the manor gets attacked by Trollocs.
And Lews gets hold of the Source, and well, the man is a killing machine. I'll tell you what, if there is one thing the Lord of the Morning is good at, its burning things.
After that, Rand realizes that he can't really hide - most likely they have someway of tracking ta'veren, so he goes out and does stuff.
Oh, and he continually ignores Logain's warnings about Taim and the Black Tower, because he's got to focus on the Seanchen.
As much as I can understand this, I can just tell this is going to bite him in the ass someday soon.
Oh, and Nyneave sends Lan across the Borderlands to gather people for the Last Battle.
Rand goes to Tear, where he finds out people have been disobeying his oders and loses his temper at them.
Cadsuane spends the meeting counting 1, 2, 3 Smack.
So, like, that was pretty bad of her.
She gave good advice, but Rand had every right to snap at them. Well, apart from the third time, where she rightly called him down for it. What she shouldn't have done was the Smakcing part, cause fuck no.
Then we move onto the Sea Folk, and finding out what happened at Tremalking - which, while sad, is kind of overshadowed by Logain, who tells them what Rand wants of them, and that while they are free to Mourn, its going to have to be done on the March to Tarmon Gai'don.
I feel loved.
but nah, I just went out friday night, then spent saturday at a mates house.
We watched Fellowship of the Ring and Two Towers in prep for the Hobbit. I'll prob make time for Return of the King at some point too.
Oh, and while I'm on the subject - yeah, watching LotR when in the middle of rereading WOT is a sure fire way for flashbacks.
Where was I....
Ah, I remember now.
We finish the whole Mat/Tuon thing with Tuon insisting on being taken to a Hell, basically a tavern where the lowest of the low hang out.
Of course, Mat and Thom are like, "No" and take her to a place and call it a Hell.
Seeing Tuon be all blunt and Mat keep panicking over it is amusing.
And then 9+ guys try and kill Mat in the alleyway out side.
He kills 8 of them by himself, but hesitates over the 9th, a woman, who Tuon finishes for him.
Most likely they were Darkfriends, come to kill Mat when the opportunity presented itself.
Then we move onto Perrin; who is singlemindedly hounding after his wife.
A man bursting into beetles - unimportant, the beetles can be crushed under his boot = not worth his time.
And more the same.
And then two arrows get shot at him, and Perrin is like, yeah, get this arrow shaft out of my arm, I've got a wife to save.
Then we leave Perrin for Elayne.... yeah, its pretty boring altogether. Sure, things happen, like Aviendha leaving, but evn at the end I'm thinking - has this story really, actually advanced in these 80 pages?
After that, we have Rand. He's being tightlipped about his experiences, and he's focused on his plans for Tarmon Gai'don.
Then Loial gets married, his wife turns out to actually be cool, and the manor gets attacked by Trollocs.
And Lews gets hold of the Source, and well, the man is a killing machine. I'll tell you what, if there is one thing the Lord of the Morning is good at, its burning things.
After that, Rand realizes that he can't really hide - most likely they have someway of tracking ta'veren, so he goes out and does stuff.
Oh, and he continually ignores Logain's warnings about Taim and the Black Tower, because he's got to focus on the Seanchen.
As much as I can understand this, I can just tell this is going to bite him in the ass someday soon.
Oh, and Nyneave sends Lan across the Borderlands to gather people for the Last Battle.
Rand goes to Tear, where he finds out people have been disobeying his oders and loses his temper at them.
Cadsuane spends the meeting counting 1, 2, 3 Smack.
So, like, that was pretty bad of her.
She gave good advice, but Rand had every right to snap at them. Well, apart from the third time, where she rightly called him down for it. What she shouldn't have done was the Smakcing part, cause fuck no.
Then we move onto the Sea Folk, and finding out what happened at Tremalking - which, while sad, is kind of overshadowed by Logain, who tells them what Rand wants of them, and that while they are free to Mourn, its going to have to be done on the March to Tarmon Gai'don.
Well, not really.
The Egwene part is over half way through.
Anyway, I've gone further now.
the chapter Attending Elaida is a brief study on how Elaida is a moron, albeit a well intentioned one.
and by that I mean, she realizes what needs to be done, but continues to go about it in retarded ways; seriously, shes so bad at this shes doing more harm than the Blacks.
Then we are back to Mat and, dun dun dun, The Band.
Mat is reunited with the Band of the Red Hand, and we get our first Tuon POV where she basically, for the first time, sees Mat in his element.
She's simultaniuosly intrigued, frightened and turned on.
Then we briefly swing by to Perrin, who is well underway prep wise, then Faile, who has plans of her own.
Then its Rand's meeting with the Seanchen and whoops, its Semirhage.
Yeah.
Fuck.
I remember being incredibly "Wha..." and a little bit EW over Rand losing his hand, though I didn't get that way this time.
I am a little freaked out about Rand;s reaction to it though.
He just sort of shrugs it off - he hasn't got time to mourn a hand.
At the same time as being incredibly badass, its Cold.
And can perfectly understand Min and Nyneave's reaction to it.
Alright then.
Next up is Perrin's rescue, which by the look of it stretches the next 3 or 4 chapters, and I think that;s the end of that story.
After that - I think its Elayne, then we finish up with Mat.
I'm just entering the home stretch of the various major plot lines.
The Egwene part is over half way through.
Anyway, I've gone further now.
the chapter Attending Elaida is a brief study on how Elaida is a moron, albeit a well intentioned one.
and by that I mean, she realizes what needs to be done, but continues to go about it in retarded ways; seriously, shes so bad at this shes doing more harm than the Blacks.
Then we are back to Mat and, dun dun dun, The Band.
Mat is reunited with the Band of the Red Hand, and we get our first Tuon POV where she basically, for the first time, sees Mat in his element.
She's simultaniuosly intrigued, frightened and turned on.
Then we briefly swing by to Perrin, who is well underway prep wise, then Faile, who has plans of her own.
Then its Rand's meeting with the Seanchen and whoops, its Semirhage.
Yeah.
Fuck.
I remember being incredibly "Wha..." and a little bit EW over Rand losing his hand, though I didn't get that way this time.
I am a little freaked out about Rand;s reaction to it though.
He just sort of shrugs it off - he hasn't got time to mourn a hand.
At the same time as being incredibly badass, its Cold.
And can perfectly understand Min and Nyneave's reaction to it.
Alright then.
Next up is Perrin's rescue, which by the look of it stretches the next 3 or 4 chapters, and I think that;s the end of that story.
After that - I think its Elayne, then we finish up with Mat.
I'm just entering the home stretch of the various major plot lines.