Bleach Vasto Lord

[~NGD OMEGA~]

Not sure what such a thing would mean in the end though. I mean really, the only odd thing I've seen so far in regards to him being human with his abilities is this little tidbit:

Though frankly I'm just waiting for him to start summoning his sword while in his human body. I mean we've seen gigai's do it, so it's not like the possibility isn't there.

 

[Belgarion213]

Yeah but just before that scene Aizen expresses surprise that his assumption that Ichigo etc were loyal followers of Urahara was wrong. Besides...How could Aizen TELL Ichigo was human? He was outside his body, he was a pureblood Shinigami (with hollow added on mind you but still). What expressly gave Aizen these insights into Ichigo's state of being? Its possible his spirit power might feel different than a proper Shinigami but we dont get that information from the scenes themselves.

 

[Takerial]

Is a shinigami a human? If you were to sample the blood of a shinigami would it be genetically human? Does that mean our soul is made of flesh and blood seperate from our body? Does this mean our soul is genetically human as is our body?

What does this mean? And is the translation specifically human? Or is it ryoka which would signify something else as what they were called during the entire soul society arc.

 

[trevelyan1983]

I think it was just logical deduction - Rukia lends her powers to a human, Rukia is captured, humans come to save her. The only Shinigami among them is Ichigo, who must be the human who was given Shinigami powers in the first place. :huh.:

 

[Lord Raine]

Besides...How could Aizen TELL Ichigo was human?

Because he's Aizen and he knows shit?

Is a shinigami a human? If you were to sample the blood of a shinigami would it be genetically human?

Yes. Shinigami are a species. That's made explicitly clear.

Does that mean our soul is made of flesh and blood seperate from our body?

Yes. Again, this was all explained eons ago. Apparently, tons of people have forgotten about it.

Shinigami, Hollows, Pluses, and all other spiritual beings have bodies that are made of "reishi," or "spirit particles." However, living beings are made of atoms.

To summarize it incredibly short: Reishi isn't just some throwaway thingy that the Shinigami use, like ki or chakra or whatever. Reishi is a fundamental particle.

To give you some perspective to what that means, there is currently only one known fundamental particle in existence IRL. The atom.

However, in the Bleachverse, there is a second fundamental particle that exists alongside atoms. It is the spirit particle.


So yes. Souls in the Bleachverse have flesh and blood and bone separate from the 'atom' flesh and blood and bone. That's why Shinigami can get broken limbs, and why Hollows bleed. They all have brains, and hearts, and livers, and stomachs, and blood, and bones, and muscles. They just aren't made of atoms.

 

[Takerial]

It was not made clear that Shinigami were a species. Shinigami are seperate from pluses in what way? Is it only their ability to generate spirit energy? Or is it something more? That wasn't ever made clear so no you can't declare them a seperate species.

I understand the concept of Reishi just fine. That still doesn't mean he won't or will be genetically human. If they're genetically human then they're humans made of reishi. Which I suppose you could make an argument that alone makes them different. But then that would be a breed rather than a different species which would make sense and would not allow them to consider themselves as seperate from humans.

Now are we talking about something else. Characteristics that make them human. But what would that be?

A body made of atoms. Well in that case, during the entire soul society arc Ichigo and his friends were not human. In fact whenever Ichigo becomes a shinigami he is no longer a human for that duration in that case and vice versa with the shinigami who slip into Gigai.

So really, no it isn't just that simple.

 

[mario_zx]

Actually if Shinigami and humans are seperate species then it might explain why Ichigo is so powerful. :hmm:

 

[~NGD OMEGA~]

The difference between Pluses and the other two is that both Shinigami and hollows were stated to have a spirtual pressure high enough to be physically touched by humans, even though they couldn't be seen by them in turn. Hence Chad punting that one exploding leeches hollow around despite the fact that he had no powers at that point and couldn't see it.

 

[nick012000]

Both Shinigami and hollows were stated to have a spirtual pressure high enough to be physically touched by humans, even though they couldn't be seen by them in turn. Hence Chad punting that one exploding leeches hollow around despite the fact that he had no powers at that point and couldn't see it.

Chad had powers at that point. Witness him getting hit by a falling I-Beam without anything more than minor scratches, or uprooting a lamp-post to use as a club.

 

[~NGD OMEGA~]

Those aren't powers, the guy was just durable as hell.

 

[nick012000]

Those aren't powers, the guy was just durable as hell.

I call superhuman strength and endurance a power. A normal person, who hadn't been hanging around Ichigo for a few years, would have died from that I-Beam.

 

[trevelyan1983]

Bleach Misconception number one: Ichigo gives people powers.

No. Ichigo's power is a catalyst that speeds up the development of abilities in people who already had that potential.

Chad's always been a superb tank. That's his entire fucking backstory.

 

[nick012000]

Bleach Misconception number one: Ichigo gives people powers.

No. Ichigo's power is a catalyst that speeds up the development of abilities in people who already had that potential.

Chad's always been a superb tank. That's his entire fucking backstory.

Huh? You got canonical evidence for that? I'm pretty sure the reason Orihime and Chad got powers (and the rest of his freinds are slowly developing them) is because he radiates power like a bonfire radiates heat, and they spent so much time around him their souls soaked it up and changed.

 

[Kernom]

Bleach Misconception number one:? Ichigo gives people powers.

No.? Ichigo's power is a catalyst that speeds up the development of abilities in people who already had that potential.

Chad's always been a superb tank.? That's his entire fucking backstory.

Huh? You got canonical evidence for that? I'm pretty sure the reason Orihime and Chad got powers (and the rest of his freinds are slowly developing them) is because he radiates power like a bonfire radiates heat, and they spent so much time around him their souls soaked it up and changed.

Chad has always been big. I am not sure bout the manga, but the anime shows him with his Grandfather and he was big then too.

I think trevelyan is right. Ichigo is a catalyst which makes the process of getting the powers faster to those with potential.
Only a few of his classmates are spirit aware and developing something.

 

[nick012000]

Bleach Misconception number one:á Ichigo gives people powers.

No.á Ichigo's power is a catalyst that speeds up the development of abilities in people who already had that potential.

Chad's always been a superb tank.á That's his entire fucking backstory.

Huh? You got canonical evidence for that? I'm pretty sure the reason Orihime and Chad got powers (and the rest of his freinds are slowly developing them) is because he radiates power like a bonfire radiates heat, and they spent so much time around him their souls soaked it up and changed.

Chad has always been big. I am not sure bout the manga, but the anime shows him with his Grandfather and he was big then too.

I think trevelyan is right. Ichigo is a catalyst which makes the process of getting the powers faster to those with potential.
Only a few of his classmates are spirit aware and developing something.

It's not his classmates that develop spiritual potential. It's his freinds.

Also, you're not going to survive an I-Beam falling on your head, no matter how big you are. Your skull would be shattered. It's clear he had already begun developing by then; how physically big he was isn't related to his spiritual power.

 

[trevelyan1983]

Huh? You got canonical evidence for that? I'm pretty sure the reason Orihime and Chad got powers (and the rest of his freinds are slowly developing them) is because he radiates power like a bonfire radiates heat, and they spent so much time around him their souls soaked it up and changed.

You bet. Yoruichi says so in volume seven. Chapter sixty-something, as I recall - she's talking to Chad and Orihime about their powers. I'm off to search for it now just to double-check.

What you say about them absorbing power from Ichigo isn't wrong, but it's not entirely accurate either - they don't get powers from him, he speeds up their developing powers

 

[warai_kitsune]

Has there been any kind of canon evidence that once you go hybrid you can't ever level up any higher? I know that Ulquiorra can apparently do two resurrecions, and that's all well and good, but for now, that's an anomaly. I'm wondering now, is there any reason why an arrancar who was turned as an Adjuchas couldn't keep on developing JUST their hollow powers to eventually become a Vasto Lorde? Or is getting Hougyokued the equivalent of having part of you eaten, putting a permanent cap on your hollow power level? Because frankly, that seems like a rough price to pay.

For that matter, can vizard continue developing other hollow abilities than cero (and general toughness), like Hierro, Sonido, Bara, etc? How about bankai? About half of the vizard were at vice-captain rank, and we've yet to even SEE Hachi's zanpakuto. Does this mean that they can never gain that, or what?

 

[~NGD OMEGA~]

Chad's durability had nothing to do with his spirtual powers. If simply being durable had anything to do with it, I'd think he'd develop into more of a Kenpachi like entity rather than the arm things he's going through. Said durability hasn't improved, or at least been focused on more estensively, at all since he got his powers, the focus instead going to his arms. I'd buy it if say he used his arm to block that beam, but no, he just took it. As if he knew he could too, given he did it to protect his buddies. Arguing against that is going into non-canon territory unless Kubo goes back to it or something.

Sides, dude's always been monstrous and it was a huge part of his backstory, him originally getting into a lot of fights and hurting a lot of people, before his grandfather told him he had to learn to be kind. Hence the spirit of his abuelo stuff. Hell, a bunch of guys got him tied up and everything, and beat him down with brass knuckles (IIRC... I may be remembering another series in this...) and stuff LONG before he had extended contact with Ichigo, and he didn't even flinch. He was just that monstrous beforehand.

 

[nick012000]

You don't need spiritual power to beat up other children, especially when you're as big as Chad's family seems to be. He was always strong and tough; absorbing spiritual powers from Ichigo took him from "Strong and tough human" to "Utterly superhumanly strong and tough."

Besides, Chad has Hollow-like powers. What's one of the major powers Hollows are notied to have? Hierro. It's probably just focused on his arms.

 

[trevelyan1983]

Besides, Chad has Hollow-like powers. What's one of the major powers Arrancar are notied to have? Hierro. It's probably just focused on his arms.

Fixed that for you.

Anyway, no luck finding that particular piece of dialogue. It's not around Shattered Shaft and Yoruichi's training session, where I thought. Any body else have a ballpark?

 

[~NGD OMEGA~]

Yet he took the beam to the back, and as I recall got hit by a guy on a moterbike. That stuff wasn't focused to his arms (in fact, I think it was his arms that were hurt in the process). Sides, again, he took like 5 guys continuously beating him with brass knuckles while he was tied down long before he had extended contact with Ichigo. Didn't flinch. He's always been durable, it's pretty blatently obvious.

 

[nick012000]

Yet he took the beam to the back, and as I recall got hit by a guy on a moterbike. That stuff wasn't focused to his arms (in fact, I think it was his arms that were hurt in the process). Sides, again, he took like 5 guys continuously beating him with brass knuckles while he was tied down long before he had extended contact with Ichigo. Didn't flinch. He's always been durable, it's pretty blatently obvious.

There's a pretty big difference between guys with brass knuckles and falling I-Beams. One leaves bruises. The other snaps all the bones in the area and pastes your internal organs.

 

[~NGD OMEGA~]

Repeated blows by multiple guys with said brass knuckles stack up dude. And we're talking not just his body, but face too. Not only is there no damage, he's not even feeling it, casually telling the leader that as he's tied up and taking it. It's pretty clear his durability is due to his own body, not any powers at any rate. Exaggerated yes, but it wouldn't be the first time in a manga. Hell, I've seen FAR worse than this before. :mellow:

Particularly when we factor in the sight issue now that I think about it. First stage of any developing power has ALWAYS been some kind of perception of spiritual beings. Chad only started noticing during the Don Kanoji incident, with the scream and all, and after that it slowly started getting stronger.

 

[Lord Raine]

The "you need spiritual powers to physically touch a Hollow or Shinigami" argument has been disproven several times over. I'm surprised to still see people holding to it.

Even ignoring canon dialogue from Rukia that disproves this, a simple examination of the collateral damage caused by Hollows, regardless of their level of power, is proof that things lacking in spiritual energy can very much come into direct physical contact with a Hollow.

I point you to the giant-ass crater footprints left by the larger Hollows, along with the fact that Fishbone D, arguably one of the weakest Hollows we've seen in the series, was able to smash down the wall of a house and toss it's inhabitants around like ragdolls.

 

[Vexarian]

Hollows would not be anywhere NEAR as serious a threat as they are if they couldn't affect Non-spiritually aware entities.