Bleach Vasto Lord

[Takerial]

Sorry Raine, but you're arguing that Hollows and Shinigami can touch physical features, which is not being questioned.

It is being questioned is the reverse. Considering that they are capable of passing through walls, which if it is suggested that physical objects always touch shinigami and hollows is true, would not be possible.

 

[zeebee1]

Didn't Chad hit one with a telephone pole?

 

[~NGD OMEGA~]

Yes he did.

In fact, only pluses have the whole passes through walls thing going on. As far as I recall, the only thing that comes close in regards to hollows and Shinigami to that was Orihime's brother as a hollow, but even that was some really weird portal nonsense.

Edit: Oh wait, there was also Orhime's braclet thing... but frankly that was a little bit of plot manipulation by Kubo there, which really didn't make all that much sense. I mean granted they have their own version of Mayuri, but that was still an eyebrow raiser none the less.

 

[nick012000]

Rukia phases through the wall the first time she met Ichigo.

 

[~NGD OMEGA~]

Note the hell butterfly before that though. That's the portal thing they use. Hell, it even creates one right there. Looks different from when Byakuya and Renji take her away granted, but the series did make some shifts between then and now.

 

[Vexarian]

It has been stated that a Hell Butterfly is necessary to guide a Shinigami through the "Proper" path through the dimensional boundaries, and it really wouldn't be that shocking to find out that they can do things like that.

 

[trevelyan1983]

It has been stated that a Hell Butterfly is necessary to guide a Shinigami through the "Proper" path through the dimensional boundaries, and it really wouldn't be that shocking to find out that they can do things like that.

Huh, that's a good point. I suppose that moving through matter is a conceivable sub-skill of moving through dimensions.

 

[Vexarian]

It has been stated that a Hell Butterfly is necessary to guide a Shinigami through the "Proper" path through the dimensional boundaries, and it really wouldn't be that shocking to find out that they can do things like that.

Huh, that's a good point. I suppose that moving through matter is a conceivable sub-skill of moving through dimensions.

Especially considering the normal relationship between Atoms and Reishi. Normal Pluses don't appear to be at all solid to anything that isn't already able to bitchslap a spirit. Which makes me think that under normal circumstances Atoms and Reishi have little, if any direct interaction with one another until you massively supercharge one (or possibly both), of the forces. In which case it's also conceivable that Shinigami and Hollows for that matter, could make their Reishi ACT less badass, at least long enough to pass through a wall or something equally obtrusive.

Edit: I can't seem to think of any scenes which would support this, so this theory seems fit for the discard pile.

 

[trevelyan1983]

The hypothesis still fits if spiritual pressure and spiritual particles have a direct relationship - say, by lowering your pressure, what you're doing is lowering the potency of the particles that make you a spiritual body. We know that particles can vibrate, for example, so we can theorize on that basis.

In short, it's possible - although it can't be proven or disproven by what we know so far.

 

[Vexarian]

Well no I mean I can't recall any scenes where a Plus actually goes through anything. Although it would be fit to reason they could, one cannot base a hypothesis off of an assumption like that.

 

[trevelyan1983]

Well no I mean I can't recall any scenes where a Plus actually goes through anything. Although it would be fit to reason they could, one cannot base a hypothesis off of an assumption like that.

Pfft. In science, yes, that's quite correct. In fiction? People do it all the time. Certain parties on TFF have deliberately misinterpreted statements in manga and anime to support their pet theory or fanfic. Filling in the blanks is fine by me, as long as canon doesn't forbid something outright.

 

[Takerial]

Hypothesis are something you form based on an observation.

Sadly in fiction you can't test them like you would in science and instead wait for the author to 'test' it so to speak.

As for chad hitting a hollow with a telephone pole. Hrm, that could go either way as in Chad infused it with spirit energy by using it as a weapon. Just like you could argue the opposite.

I do agree the lower spirit pressure could be why they don't interact and then a higher pressure could be why they interact.

I don't see it having to deal with the butterflies as Orihime was able to do so without it. Unless the device she was given was to act like a butterfly. But it wasn't, it was to make her like a spirit in which she passed through walls.

 

[wingthesword]

Well no I mean I can't recall any scenes where a Plus actually goes through anything. Although it would be fit to reason they could, one cannot base a hypothesis off of an assumption like that.

The second ghost(plus) we see in the series, that old man that Karin ignored, was partially going through the floor when Rukia 'konsoed'[is this how it should be spelled?] him.

 

[odin818]

Hypothesis are something you form based on an observation.

Sadly in fiction you can't test them like you would in science and instead wait for the author to 'test' it so to speak.

As for chad hitting a hollow with a telephone pole. Hrm, that could go either way as in Chad infused it with spirit energy by using it as a weapon. Just like you could argue the opposite.

I do agree the lower spirit pressure could be why they don't interact and then a higher pressure could be why they interact.

I don't see it having to deal with the butterflies as Orihime was able to do so without it. Unless the device she was given was to act like a butterfly. But it wasn't, it was to make her like a spirit in which she passed through walls.

Isn't the reason Captain's and Vice-Captain's get their power sealed when they go to the real world so they don't affect things around them? This would support the theory that it takes a larger amount of power to affect things around them.

 

[Lord Raine]

Sorry Raine, but you're arguing that Hollows and Shinigami can touch physical features, which is not being questioned.

It is being questioned is the reverse.

There is no reverse. There is only one event occurring, which is a collision of X and Y. The idea that X can touch Y but Y can't touch X is a logical fallacy, and makes no sense. Touch is touch, end of story.

 

[Belgarion213]

Actually there are all manner of hand waves that could justify why Hollows/Shinigami can touch stuff but others can't touch them. Its fairly easy if you consider both Hollows/Shinigami comparatively massive spiritual density and their ability to manipulate their spirit particles. In a physical world your statement would be correct but we are dealing with spiritual objects and creatures who show at least a instinctive ability to manipulate their spiritual bodies.

For clarification I'm not arguing one way or the other, just saying that in a world where beings can control their spiritual power and density we cant expect them to behave exactly like in the real world.

 

[Mutt]

Anyway, no luck finding that particular piece of dialogue.? It's not around Shattered Shaft and Yoruichi's training session, where I thought.? Any body else have a ballpark?

If you're still looking for the dialogue, it's in volume 6, Urahara say's it to Orihime and Chad at the end of chapter 44.

Onemanga - Chapter 44 Page 21 and Page 22

Official english translation in volume 6:

Your sudden supernatural abilities lay sleeping deep in your souls. Coming in contact with Ichigo Kurosaki activated your latent, inborn powers!!

 

[Lord Raine]

In a physical world your statement would be correct but we are dealing with spiritual objects and creatures who show at least a instinctive ability to manipulate their spiritual bodies.

This doesn't make sense on two levels.

The first is that the ability to manipulate your body or change it's density does not mean you can touch something without it by default also touching you back. If you touch it, it's also touching you.

The second is that they are not "spiritual objects." They are identical in every way to normal objects, except for the fact that they are made out of spirit particles instead of atoms.

And the outstanding trait of spirit particles is that they cannot be seen by those who are spiritually unaware. Not "they cannot be interacted with." Seen.

 

[trevelyan1983]

Anyway, no luck finding that particular piece of dialogue.á It's not around Shattered Shaft and Yoruichi's training session, where I thought.á Any body else have a ballpark?

If you're still looking for the dialogue, it's in volume 6, Urahara say's it to Orihime and Chad at the end of chapter 44.

Onemanga - Chapter 44 Page 21 and Page 22

Official english translation in volume 6:

Your sudden supernatural abilities lay sleeping deep in your souls. Coming in contact with Ichigo Kurosaki activated your latent, inborn powers!!

Thank you! I knew it was something along those lines, but I'd had no luck at all finding it.

So, there we go. Catalyst. ^_^

 

[Lord Raine]

Ichigo caused their powers to manifest, but he didn't give them anything they didn't already have. If someone had 0 supernatural potential, then they could live their entire lives as Ichigo's roommate, and nothing would happen.

The problem, though, is that apparently everyone has some bit of supernatural potential. So it's really just a matter of 'when,' not 'if.'


And that is why Captains, Lieutenants, and other Seated Officers at or above a certain level of power are required to have the majority of their power sealed when they're in the human world. If they weren't sealed, then the human world would look like the Marvelverse and DCverse inside of a few years. A decade at most.

That's how long it would take 95% of the population of the planet to develop superpowers. Cue a total shift in society, national power, military, politics, and civilization itself.

 

[Vexarian]

Sorry Raine, but you're arguing that Hollows and Shinigami can touch physical features, which is not being questioned.

It is being questioned is the reverse.

There is no reverse. There is only one event occurring, which is a collision of X and Y. The idea that X can touch Y but Y can't touch X is a logical fallacy, and makes no sense. Touch is touch, end of story.

It's also extra impossible, because X being able to touch Y literally requires Y is able to touch X as well.

You literally can not come in contact with something, unless it is also in contact with you when you do so.

Also, let me see if I can explain how this works.

Let's use Orihime as an example,

With how the opposing side is interpreting this is that Orihime began as a Level 1 Human, and got switched to a Level 1 Shun Shun Rikka User due to Ichigo's Influence.

IE, Level 1 Human to Level 1 Shun Shun Rikka User.

However, I think it worked more like this, with Orihime beginning as a Level 0 Shun Shun Rikka User, and being leveled up to level 1.

IE, Level 0 Shun Shun Rikka User to Level 1 Shun Shun Rikka User.

Makes a hell of a lot more sense this way, because you don't have to explain where the hell Orihime's abilities CAME from.

 

[Takerial]

The statement is X and Y interact because X allows it. This does not mean X and Y interact because Y allows it.

In this scenario, X is a shinigami which means that they must allow it in some form for interaction between X and Y. This is what them touching or affecting the surrounding signifies. That they are allowing this interaction.

Y, the physical world and non-spiritual people cannot do the reverse. IE they cannot allow the interaction between the two of them to occur.

That is what I"m arguing. Sorry if I was not clear about that as when I see someone touch something I see it as them allow or initiating the interaction. Which would be what I am arguing.

 

[wingthesword]

Well no I mean I can't recall any scenes where a Plus actually goes through anything. Although it would be fit to reason they could, one cannot base a hypothesis off of an assumption like that.

The second ghost(plus) we see in the series, that old man that Karin ignored, was partially going through the floor when Rukia 'konsoed'[is this how it should be spelled?] him.

Wasn't Rukia surprised that Ichigo could touch her much less see her?

(It is less to see than to touch right? I'm a bit confused with the proper grammar)

 

[zeebee1]

Rukia was wrong about a lot of things at the beginning.

 

[nick012000]

And that is why Captains, Lieutenants, and other Seated Officers at or above a certain level of power are required to have the majority of their power sealed when they're in the human world. If they weren't sealed, then the human world would look like the Marvelverse and DCverse inside of a few years. A decade at most.

That's how long it would take 95% of the population of the planet to develop superpowers. Cue a total shift in society, national power, military, politics, and civilization itself.

You know, that's a thought. Chad's got roughly Captain-level power now. He's also a living person and outside of the jurisdiction of Soul Society. If he gives powers to his freinds, romantic partners, and children, and they give their powers to their freinds and loved ones, he may well kick off a "Superhero Revolution".

If spirit particles can be detected by non-spiritual processes, they may well be discovered by the scientists doing subatomic particle research. If they are, and they link spirit particles to the process of acquiring superpowers...