Naruto What Really Happened on the Training Trip

Shirotsume

Not The Goddamn @dmin
#1
Jiraiya settled his bulk slowly into the rickety wooden chair with a deep groan of satisfaction. He and Naruto had been walking for a week now- straight from Konoha to as far away as a winding, unpredictable path could take them.

With a negligent flick of his hand, he motioned both for Naruto to take the seat across from him, and for a waiter to come over.

The inn was a small, cozy place- a bit of a favorite of his whenever he came through here. The firelight crackled merrily in the fireplace near the main center of the dining room in the log building, and rustic, though not particularly tasteful, decorations adorned the place- mostly the skulls of various large animals the local men had brought down for food.

Naruto was unusually subdued, as he had for the past week. Some of it, Jiraiya knew, was that he had been forced to leave his friends- most without even a simple goodbye. It would be up to the schoolteacher to pass on the news.

The other was that the boy seemed to pick up on his own urgency and unwillingness to talk. The boy wasn't the sharpest crayon in the box, but he was by far the brightest.

Plunking his elbow onto the table and resting his chin on his knuckles, Jiraiya retreated into thought while they waited to be served.

He had to be careful about their movements at first, he knew. Once they managed to get around the various tails and dropped off the gossips' radar, they would be home free and nearly impossible to track down.

Their appearance here was a calculated ploy that fed into nearly every expectation anyone would have of Jiraiya. They were in a small town at an inn about four days from Konoha, halfway between Konoha and the Land of Hot Springs. They appeared to be moving slowly, and complacently, towards a country filled with everything Jiraiya was known to love about life.

They were actually heading to the Land of Earth, however, on the other side of Fire. Now that they had been spotted back here, estimates would backtrack closer to Konoha, and towards the obvious target. Tonight, instead of heading to bed, they would set out full speed back towards, and around, Konoha, straight for River Country and then to Wind.

The desert- and Suna, which any trackers would be unable to near- would hide their intentions as they headed north straight into Earth, instead of going into Sunagakure. At that points, as long as they were not be predicted or intercepted, they should be able to avoid their trackers.

"Your orders, sirs?"

The waitress had arrived. Jiraiya just nodded to Naruto to let him order first.

"Do you serve red bean soup here?"

"We do, sir."

"Then I'll have a bowl, please."

It was odd hearing Naruto so quiet. Poor boy was probably feeling intensely guilty for not wishing them farewell. He would cheer up soon though, with some food and the talk they would be having.

"I'll have your special, please, and I would like my tea very hot."

"Right away!"

That was one of the reasons Jiraiya liked this place- their special was chicken kaarage, one of his favorite foods. They were also clean, prompt, and had very nice beds.

Jiraiya let his eyes wander off to the waitress as she left- making sure she was out of ear range, keeping up the stereotype he projected, and, well, she did have a nice rear.

Once she was a suitable distance away, he snapped his new apprentice out of the probable guilt he had been stewing in for the last week.

"Naruto."

His head snapped up, eyes wide. Understandable, given that it was the first thing Jiraiya had said to him in a week- after telling Naruto they needed silence and speed. "Yeah?"

"We need to talk about what kind of things we'll be covering during this training trip. Consider this your syllabus, boy."

A large grin began creeping onto Naruto's face even as he zoned out, no doubt imagining dragons made of fire, huge explosives, and being extremely stealthy.

"You're probably not going to like it... at first. And keep in mind that if you have objections, make them quietly. We can't afford the attention. Understand?"

Naruto nodded slowly. The boy seemed to bracing himself. Good. Probably best to drop the bombshell first. "There won't be much jutsu training. Nothing over C-rank, at that-"

Naruto's eyes went wide as he turned pale, fantasies crashing down around him. "What?" he breathed, sounding strangled.

"Bare with me boy, and remember to keep it down. We're not going to do much at all with genjutsu- too much time to make it worth it, not enough reward. I'm too shoddy at it anyway, its not either of our styles."

He was calming down- still pale, but not as badly, and his eyes weren't trying to combat his whiskers for his most defining facial feature. The bit about not bothering with genjutsu- which Jiraiya knew Naruto hated- seemed to be calming him down.

"We will be keeping up with your taijutsu and chakra control. We don't want you falling behind in those, because that would cause irreparable damage down the line. But those will be an afterthought."

"Jiraiya... why...?" Naruto choked out, disbelief warring with despair on his face

Naruto looked like his dreams and hopes were crashing down around him. And lost. He looked very lost. Jiraiya sighed, suddenly feeling very old.

"Naruto, answer this question for me. It's very important to me, because the answer should be very important to you. Why do you think you need massive, powerful jutsu and mighty, fast taijutsu?"

The answer was immediate and thoughtless, almost a knee-jerk reaction. "So I can get Sasuke back and become Hokage!"

"Naruto, why would more power help with getting Sasuke back?"

It took Naruto a second to realize that Jiraiya had responded with a question, and not just shot the idea down out of hand. He was evidently used to people doing that.
Sad, really. And a bit telling. It looked like his idea for this training trip was more than a good idea- it was what Naruto needed.

"Because then I can make him come back to Konoha, where he needs to go!"

Jiraiya nodded thoughtfully. "Let me rephrase that- why would you need more power to make him come back?"

Naruto winced minutely and closed his eyes. "Because he beat me. He was better than me, so he got to walk away to Sound and I failed all my friends. Him the most."

"He wasn't stronger than you, really. He didn't even beat you, Naruto."

"Wha-"

"You beat yourself in that fight, because you held back. It was, in theory, the right idea, Naruto, and not something you should blame yourself for- he's your friend, and that means a lot to you. Fighting him was hard, because you weren't just fighting him- you were fighting the side of you that didn't want you to fight him. You could take Sasuke in a fight, Naruto, if you both went all out."

Jiraiya put his teacup down with a authoritive clank.

"This brings us to what I'm going to teach you over this trip. I'm not worried about you getting Sasuke back. You have a three year period to do so, and I think you could take him. I'm not worried about the Akatsuki either- unless they catch us while we're on this trip, I have faith that when it comes time, you could triumph."

Naruto's eyes were glassy at the impromptu show of support. "Ero-sennin... you really think so?"

"Yes. Which is where I come in. Getting Sasuke back, beating the Akatsuki... you don't need my help with that, Naruto. And we have a three-year time out where I can teach you. There's more to being a ninja- more to being a Hokage- than just power and speed."

Naruto was hanging on to his every word.

"Right now, if you bring Sasuke back, he will be branded a traitor and executed, and he wouldn't be there of his own free will which would only expedite the process of execution. There's nothing Tsunade could do to stop it. Her hands are tied. Yours aren't. Do you know how you could keep him from being executed as a nuke-nin when you bring him back?"

Naruto blinked, caught off guard by the sudden question. "Obaa-chan wouldn't do that!"

Jiriaya shook his head. "She would, kid. She would hate it, she would feel terrible for it, and it would rip her apart to do that to you, but like I said, her hands are tied. Now, how would you stop her from being forced to do that? I know that Sarutobi-sensei watched over you sometimes when you were a kid, and told you about how the village worked. How would you game the system?"

Naruto's mouth opened and closed a few times. "Well, we could... make it look like it was a super secret mission to spy on Orochimaru, couldn't we?"

Jiraiya valiantly refrained from palming his face. "Alright, how would you get people to believe that? There are mission records, the Hokage Council- that's Sarutobi's old teammates Homura Mitokado and Koharu Utane, as well as occasionally and unofficially Shimura Danzou, his old friend- but I digress, the Council must be informed of such black-ops missions. He would need a handler too- someone who he would have been passing information too. How would we spoof all this, and get the nessecary people to back it up? Tsunade, for example, would be against it- she wouldn't want him dead, but she wouldn't want to pay Uchiha- reward him- for the 'mission."

Naruto fell silent.

Jiraiya opened his mouth to continue, thinking his point made. Instead, Naruto cut across.

"Well, the mission record... I don't know how I could falsify that. Tsunade could do it!"

"Tsunade wouldn't- remember, she wouldn't want to reward him."

"Then I would have to make it worth it for her. Maybe we could like, pay off her debts?"

"Do you have the money to pay off her debts, brat? I didn't think so."

"But, but! We could take Sasuke's 'reward money' and use that! Have him use his 'mission pay' to pay off Tsunade's debts out of gratitude or something- appear to willingly give it up! We could, um... say that maybe she got him out of there early, because it was detrimental to his health or something! No one would argue with Obaa-chan about health, she could just say he was falling ill from being underground and stuff!"

Naruto was clearly on a roll, and speeding up as he was honing in on his idea.

"It's not like anyone would think a twelve year old would want to be on a long term infiltration there! He would be happy- well, as happy as he gets- to get out early! And he has his inheritance, he wouldn't need the money anyway!"

"Not bad, but what about the council?"

"Uh... maybe we could act confused too? Or, wait, no, could we say that the old man didn't have time to tell them before he died!"

Naruto beamed at his logic, clearly thinking he was still on a roll from his earlier, admittedly decent, idea. "We would have no way of knowing that, boy. It would suspicious to say the least."

"Then maybe just being confused, but making sure they know the date of it- make them think they figured it out!"

Tricky. An excellent idea, but very, very hard to pull off.

"As for a handler, it would need to be someone in on it, but it's really easy!"

Now Jiraiya was intrigued, just a bit. Naruto was doing actually pretty decent at making this plan- he had known Naruto was good at making plans by the seat of his pants, but it was still impressive to see in action. He was also ballsy enough to try it and actually have it go through by sheer charisma. But it would be messy, there would be complications, and it would hurt his candidacy for Hokage later. It still needed honed.

And as for it being really easy... did Naruto have someone who owed him a big enough favor to do something like this? Because knowing Naruto, it would be quite the story.

"Me!"

This time, Jiraiya wasn't able to keep from palming his face. "Naruto, that would never work, you're-"

Naruto bulldozed right over him though. "No, no, listen ero-sensei, think about it! I've already made clear that I want to bring him back. And more importantly, that means I would go after him every chance I get. No one would blink twice at us meeting up, they all know I'm trying to find him! And aren't you like, some super big shot spymaster or something? I'm your apprentice, people are probably already expecting me to be learning more than toads!"

Well hot damn. The only problem, of course, was...

"This all hinges on Sasuke's cooperation, though."

Naruto squinted his eyes, looking like he had just tasted something sour. "Yeah, I'm still working on that. It's hard though, because what makes me stay drives him away!"

Jiraiya nodded. "In any case kid, this kind of stuff is what I'm talking about- espionage, subtlety, some economics and politics- the ability to bullshit a lie past people. That's the kind of thing we're going to be working on. Your ideas are decent, if naive. You have some latent skill in this area, and you're charismatic and ballsy enough to bluff with the best. But, you don't know enough about Konoha yet to know that, while your overall idea is good, if reliant on things outside your control, the devil is in the details and would blow the entire thing up faster than a tag. You don't have experience."

He took a long, savoring sip of his tea. "We're going to cover getting you experience. In leading, as well. The running of a village too, how it works. You want to be Hokage. That means understanding your village, not kicking butt. If you're serious about your little scheme, then I need to teach you the things a handler would need to know. What a spy would know too, so you could teach Sasuke if you can convince him."

"I.. "

"Of course we're not going to the Land Of Hot Springs to peek! I'm going to the land of Hot Springs to peek, and you're probably going to be annoying and interrupt your master's research, you ungrateful brat!"

Naruto blinked at the sudden change of topic, before he noticed the waitress approach carrying their food, frowning mightily at Jiraiya's pronouncement. Jiraiya could literally see it click in Naruto's head.

"You stupid pervert! You need to teach me cool jutsu, not violate privacy! We're supposed to be touring the world, not sitting like ducks in Hot Springs so you can ignore me and be a creepy old man!"

Naruto's soup was swiftly slid to him with a small dimpled smile, and Jiraiya's plate of chicken narrowly missed his fingers with a rather ominous thunk.

"Enjoy your meal."

Jiraiya hid a small smile as he began tearing at his fried goodness, sharing a quick wink with Naruto who, by his grin, was somewhat proud of how fast he had managed to pick up on their little ploy.

The two enjoyed their food, and no more words were spoken. It was the beginning, as they say, of a beautiful friendship between master and apprentice.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


So the idea is basically taking the assumption that, instead of Jiraiya training Naruto to fight, Jiraiya instead went "Meh, he's got that shit." and instead focused on making naruto a legitimate Hokage candidate. The story would slowly diverge from canon there, or possibly stay true to canon at the end.

Some of it would be simple slice of life between master and apprentice, where everything is both more than it seems and exactly as it seems, much like Jiraiya checking out the waitress's ass.

Most will be coherent storylines in chunks, such as Jiraiya using some favors to get Naruto working closely with a minor to medium lord in earth to see how things work, which would be the first chunk. Jiraiya also, of course, certainly didn't pick a favor from that specific lord because he has a daughter naruto's age, heh.

Anyway, thoughts? I also need ideas for a title/summary that doesn't suck.
Right now I'm leaning towards "Of Hookers and Economics" just for the lulz.
 

Matdeception

Well-Known Member
#2
I like it, it's thoughtful and brings a breath of life to the mostly empty time-skip portion of the training trip. Given that Naruto seems to have had to learn everything he knows now via training post-time skip (Barring something I can't think of, blarg), it actually makes a damn good bit of sense.

And Hookers and Economics... it almost makes it seem crackish, but it's not terrible.
 

Knyght

The Collector
#3
This looks interesting and the idea's quite plausible considering how the teaching process works in the Narutoverse. Though whether it would be able to sustain my interest would depend on what storylines there are and how they're implemented.

Naruto observing the politics of a daimyo's court or whatever wouldn't appeal to me unless there's some kind of Serious Business going on. And he ends up getting in the middle of it.
 

Sdebeli

Well-Known Member
#5
knight504 said:
Naruto observing the politics of a daimyo's court or whatever wouldn't appeal to me unless there's some kind of Serious Business going on. And he ends up getting in the middle of it.
Or serious crack/lulz.
Idea approved anyway. I like where this is going so far.
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#6
It has my interest. Please, continue soon.
 

Shirotsume

Not The Goddamn @dmin
#7
In order:

Mat: Thanks. As for making it seem a bit crackish, well, keep in mind that this is a story about Jiraiya and Naruto's shenanigans while touring the world. Not that it won't be serious at times, but it will definitely have it's light-hearted parts.

Knight504: Naruto wouldn't be observing the politics of the Daimyo's court- he's working with a Lord, not the Daimyo. And by working with, I mean he basically will act almost as a heir-in-training for the Lord, with Jiraiya and the Lord keeping Naruto from doing anything too stupid. Of course, this being Naruto, that won't stop him, with both hilarious and serious side effects. Also, you know, Naruto accidently making the princess fall in love with him. Because he gets princesses like it's his job.

Meinos/Sdebeli/Charon: (What? You all said the same thing.) Thanks. Wasn't sure if this was a decent idea, or it just seemed like one in my head.

Any ideas for what direction the story should take? I still also need name ideas, unless you guys like Of Hookers and Economics.
 

Knyght

The Collector
#8
When you said Lord, I automatically thought of a Daimyo since they're the country rulers. Do the Lords have control of specific areas within that country and answer to the Daimyo?

And if Jiraiya's teaching is going to focused on how to be Hokage, understanding the village and how it works, wouldn't leaving Konoha be counter-productive? He'd definitely be able to get experience outside of the village, but Konoha would operate under a different set of rules from regular towns and cities and has various divisions he should be learning about.
 

Meinos Kaen

Well-Known Member
#9
Well, I'd say make it so that Naruto gets used to dealing with politics, make him interact with different figures and kind of problems, be they foreign, local, or of their subordinates. And yes, Naruto is a princesses-magnet. That was a no brainer.
 

datakim

Well-Known Member
#10
The idea of Jiraiya training Naruto in politics and generally teaching him to actually use his brain is a cool story idea. That being said however, not training Naruto in any battle tactics/techniques would be incredibly stupid considering that Naruto does have a group of massively dangerous individuals out to get him.

Post-timeskip Naruto could be the most politically savvy person in the world, and it would not help him in the slightest when Itachi and Kisame came to pay him a visit. The unfortunate reality is that pre-timeskip Naruto has no chance against even the weakest members of the Akatsuki. Heck, the canon post-timeskip Naruto did not, until he learned SM and KCM.

Ofcourse, one could argue that if Jiraiya teaches Naruto to actually think for himself, he could develop his own techniques and become stronger on his own. Minato is considered one of the most "haxx" characters in the series, and he apparently developed both the Rasengan and Hiraishin on his own without any training from Jiraiya.
 

Knyght

The Collector
#11
Jiraiya didn't really teach Naruto anything during the training trip in canon and he didn't need to. Naruto's already got a strong foundation and a talent for ninjutsu, all he needs is to be pointed in the right direction and he'll be fine. Which is how most shinobi seem to learn; their teachers figuring out what works bests for their students and guiding them. And with the Kage Bunshin memory trick then it's even less of a problem.

This fic isn't about Naruto's physical training anyway so it doesn't particularly matter.
 

Shirotsume

Not The Goddamn @dmin
#12
Knight: Yes, that's exactly what a Lord is. And Jiraiya can be bringing Konoha specific stuff up and such. Remember, while they may have a three year time out, it's only a timeout if they can't be found. Not being found > Any training of any kind.

Meinos: This.

datakim: It's actually a completely viable strategy, powered by Jiraiya's faith in Naruto. That's not to say they won't be doing physical training- they'll keep improving him in his taijutsu, and broaden and diversify his ninjutsu base with some things a little more useful than way #48302 of blowing something up. But most of that is an afterthought- as knight brought up, that's pretty much exactly what DID happen in canon. Naruto didn't come back appreciatively stronger, and I would say he's made it through all right.

knight: Ayup.


Another thing has hit me- I'm not sure I could have it follow canon in the end and actually have it stick. Naruto makes a lot of whacked out decisions post-timeskip, like begging the Raikage to spare Sasuke, which reflects pretty damn poorly on both him and Jiraiya, and would kill any respect politically he would ever get. (Well, except in this specific case because then he later, in order, outspeeds the Raikage, watches Bee prove he's his own man, and then goes off to stop a goddamn war. Aren't extenuating circumstances fun?)


Seriously, the hell were Jiraiya and Naruto doing over timeskip?
 

Knyght

The Collector
#13
Another thing has hit me- I'm not sure I could have it follow canon in the end and actually have it stick. Naruto makes a lot of whacked out decisions post-timeskip, like begging the Raikage to spare Sasuke, which reflects pretty damn poorly on both him and Jiraiya, and would kill any respect politically he would ever get. (Well, except in this specific case because then he later, in order, outspeeds the Raikage, watches Bee prove he's his own man, and then goes off to stop a goddamn war. Aren't extenuating circumstances fun?)
Does it matter? The meat of this fic seems to be during the training trip so that situation would be irrelevant. And if it's continuing from when Naruto returns to Konoha then I'd expect there to be a fair few divergences after that point, making the Raikage situation unlikely to occur. Especially since it came about fairly late into Part 2 after several linked events i.e Nagato's attack, Naruto's change of ideals, Sasuke joining Akatsuki etc.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#14
I feel like saying "ah, don't worry about it, I'm pretty sure you'll make it to the absolute pinnacle of the highest mountain called S-class just, like, organically" is something that could really blow up in Jiraiya's face.

I mean, yeah he's the Kyuubi jinchuuriki, but... is relying on that really enough?

On the other hand, the best way to resolve that is to just stick Naruto in a meat grinder and rely on his Healing Factor to cover his screw ups.

And the same thing goes for all his other ninja skills. The fastest way for him to learn leadership is to be handed authority over others and then expected to deliver results. Maybe it doesn't work for proper practice for book skills, but are you trying to make him a ninja accountant or give him the money instinct to call good shots based on what the ninja accountants have to say?

If you want to train Naruto to be Hokage as fast as possible, why take him away from the village at all? If you want him to gain experience as a ninja, then just throw his unprepared butt into difficult missions and let him struggle and improvise and develop solutions.

Just make him the commander of a cell of experienced ninja, and throw hard missions at him that he has to complete.

"Why take him away from the village at all"... well, Akatsuki.

Okay, go another direction.

Stick him in Waterfall, or another allied village.
Two rules:
1) No Rasengans
2) No Kage Bunshin (when there's witnesses)
Give him some hair dye and a Kakashi mask or whatever and suddenly he's not Naruto anymore, not in any way that people can really tell, he's Chuunin McAnnon from Hidden Leaf, on ninja exchange or loan to the allied village or whatever. Yeah if Itachi stumbles across him with Sharingan whirling the gig is up but there's only one Itachi, the idea is don't attract him to where Naruto is in the first place.

Jiraiya sneaks around and teaches him stuff, but also takes a Naruto Kage Bunshin on big obvious adventures with his toad teleportation jutsu so it looks like they're going hither and yon (with Kage Bunshin learning they actually are!) while McAnnon struggles to lead some second stringers from a second-rate village against Hidden Sound cyborgs strung out on Orochimaru's performance-enhancing drugs.

I feel like the best way to do this is, rather than a "Grand Tour", just stick him in a minor village as Random Konoha Ninja On Loan, and let him struggle as a functional jounin for that minor power.
 

datakim

Well-Known Member
#15
Shirotsume said:
datakim: It's actually a completely viable strategy, powered by Jiraiya's faith in Naruto. That's not to say they won't be doing physical training- they'll keep improving him in his taijutsu, and broaden and diversify his ninjutsu base with some things a little more useful than way #48302 of blowing something up. But most of that is an afterthought- as knight brought up, that's pretty much exactly what DID happen in canon. Naruto didn't come back appreciatively stronger, and I would say he's made it through all right.
You are right that Naruto did not come back all that stronger from the timeskip, and thats something that many have found annoying. Sasuke was basically Orochimaru 2.0. Sakura was Tsunade 2.0 (well almost). But Naruto was NOT Jiraiya 2.0.

The manga had to have scenes like massive Kage Bunshin cheat to learn FRS, an ability like SM, and then KCM to give Naruto any chance against the kinds of enemies he faces. Infact given that there was never any hint about KBs giving memories until FRS training, I would say that whole thing is probably a retcon to allow Naruto to train faster to make up for the author screwup that he learned nothing during the timeskip.

Remove all of those(FRS, SM and KCM/BM), and then put Naruto against say Kisame or Nagato and we both know what happens. Not to mention that in canon, all the hokages (and kages in general) have been massively powerfull, so it is unlikely Naruto would have any hope of getting the job if he was not equally powerfull, no matter how politically savvy he is.

Basically, Jiraiya teaching politics and training Naruto to think would be cool, but it does not make sense for him to focus on just that given the immediate threat Naruto faces, AND the fact that only someone exceptionally skilled/strong would even be a contender for the job. Not to mention that Naruto would only have a chance at the job when Tsunade dies, which as far as Jiraiya knows could be many decades from now.
 

Ashaman

Well-Known Member
#16
You are right that Naruto did not come back all that stronger from the timeskip, and thats something that many have found annoying. Sasuke was basically Orochimaru 2.0. Sakura was Tsunade 2.0 (well almost). But Naruto was NOT Jiraiya 2.0
While I don't have anything to add to the idea itself, I feel the urge to point out the fact that Pre-TS Naruto didn't face and beat anything stronger than a chuunin (without significant backup), and Post-TS he was facing S-Ranks on even footing, the idea he didn't get any stronger is a misconception.

Learning nothing new =/= not getting stronger.
 

datakim

Well-Known Member
#17
Ashaman said:
While I don't have anything to add to the idea itself, I feel the urge to point out the fact that Pre-TS Naruto didn't face and beat anything stronger than a chuunin (without significant backup), and Post-TS he was facing S-Ranks on even footing, the idea he didn't get any stronger is a misconception.?

Learning nothing new =/= not getting stronger.
Just out of curiosity, which S-rank enemy did Naruto face on equal level using nothing but Jiraiyas timeskip training.

And dont say Orochimaru, Kyuubi did that, not Naruto. Naruto was not even conscious at the time given how he hurt Sakura.

Kakuzu happened after the FRS supertraining via clonecheating. He got this training from Kakashi, while Jiraiya apparently had not even tested Narutos elemental affinity or explained what it even was.

Nagato happened after instant-superboost via Sage Mode that pretty much came out of nowhere. Naruto also got this training from Fukasaku, while Jiraiya had not even considered this option despite Narutos huge chakra reserves making it a very logical skill for Naruto. A fact confirmed when Naruto mastered it in a week or so and became better at it than Jiraiya.

All the rest happened after he got KCM/BM thanks to SM. He was trained by Bee here, and got assistance from (indirectly) Minato and from Kushina. Jiraiyas only contribution was giving him the key (which came from Minato and was intended for Naruto in the first place)

Did I actually forget someone? :huh:

Oh right, he did defeat a 30% clone of Itachi that Kakashi had already grabbed and immobilized so that all Naruto needed to do was run and hit him with a rasengan (Konohamaru could have done that). And Deidara who was already badly hurt by Kamui and who obviously could not fight with all he had due to risk of killing Naruto and therefore Kyuubi.

What did manga confirm Naruto did during the timeskip? His taijutsu that was a bit better, but not massively so. He learned a bigger rasengan and he trained to break free from genjutsu (training which proved to be uselesss against 30% Itachi). He also tried to learn to use Kyuubis power and failed miserably until Bee helped. Anything else?


Oh, and pre-timeskip Naruto summoned Gamabunta (with Kyuubis help) and directly fought a released bijuu. A feat arguably far greater than anything post-timeskip Naruto did until the recent battles or the one against Pain.
 

Leonite

Well-Known Member
#18
datakim said:
Ashaman said:
While I don't have anything to add to the idea itself, I feel the urge to point out the fact that Pre-TS Naruto didn't face and beat anything stronger than a chuunin (without significant backup), and Post-TS he was facing S-Ranks on even footing, the idea he didn't get any stronger is a misconception.á

Learning nothing new =/= not getting stronger.
Just out of curiosity, which S-rank enemy did Naruto face on equal level using nothing but Jiraiyas timeskip training.

And dont say Orochimaru, Kyuubi did that, not Naruto. Naruto was not even conscious at the time given how he hurt Sakura.

Kakuzu happened after the FRS supertraining via clonecheating. He got this training from Kakashi, while Jiraiya apparently had not even tested Narutos elemental affinity or explained what it even was.

Nagato happened after instant-superboost via Sage Mode that pretty much came out of nowhere. Naruto also got this training from Fukasaku, while Jiraiya had not even considered this option despite Narutos huge chakra reserves making it a very logical skill for Naruto. A fact confirmed when Naruto mastered it in a week or so and became better at it than Jiraiya.

All the rest happened after he got KCM/BM thanks to SM. He was trained by Bee here, and got assistance from (indirectly) Minato and from Kushina. Jiraiyas only contribution was giving him the key (which came from Minato and was intended for Naruto in the first place)

Did I actually forget someone? :huh:

Oh right, he did defeat a 30% clone of Itachi that Kakashi had already grabbed and immobilized so that all Naruto needed to do was run and hit him with a rasengan (Konohamaru could have done that). And Deidara who was already badly hurt by Kamui and who obviously could not fight with all he had due to risk of killing Naruto and therefore Kyuubi.

What did manga confirm Naruto did during the timeskip? His taijutsu that was a bit better, but not massively so. He learned a bigger rasengan and he trained to break free from genjutsu (training which proved to be uselesss against 30% Itachi). He also tried to learn to use Kyuubis power and failed miserably until Bee helped. Anything else?


Oh, and pre-timeskip Naruto summoned Gamabunta (with Kyuubis help) and directly fought a released bijuu. A feat arguably far greater than anything post-timeskip Naruto did until the recent battles or the one against Pain.
He pretty much handed Deidara's ass to him once Deidara stopped running away... might've killed him if he had gone to 3 tails.
 
#19
datakim said:
Ashaman said:
While I don't have anything to add to the idea itself, I feel the urge to point out the fact that Pre-TS Naruto didn't face and beat anything stronger than a chuunin (without significant backup), and Post-TS he was facing S-Ranks on even footing, the idea he didn't get any stronger is a misconception.á

Learning nothing new =/= not getting stronger.
Just out of curiosity, which S-rank enemy did Naruto face on equal level using nothing but Jiraiyas timeskip training.

And dont say Orochimaru, Kyuubi did that, not Naruto. Naruto was not even conscious at the time given how he hurt Sakura.

Kakuzu happened after the FRS supertraining via clonecheating. He got this training from Kakashi, while Jiraiya apparently had not even tested Narutos elemental affinity or explained what it even was.

Nagato happened after instant-superboost via Sage Mode that pretty much came out of nowhere. Naruto also got this training from Fukasaku, while Jiraiya had not even considered this option despite Narutos huge chakra reserves making it a very logical skill for Naruto. A fact confirmed when Naruto mastered it in a week or so and became better at it than Jiraiya.

All the rest happened after he got KCM/BM thanks to SM. He was trained by Bee here, and got assistance from (indirectly) Minato and from Kushina. Jiraiyas only contribution was giving him the key (which came from Minato and was intended for Naruto in the first place)

Did I actually forget someone? :huh:

Oh right, he did defeat a 30% clone of Itachi that Kakashi had already grabbed and immobilized so that all Naruto needed to do was run and hit him with a rasengan (Konohamaru could have done that). And Deidara who was already badly hurt by Kamui and who obviously could not fight with all he had due to risk of killing Naruto and therefore Kyuubi.

What did manga confirm Naruto did during the timeskip? His taijutsu that was a bit better, but not massively so. He learned a bigger rasengan and he trained to break free from genjutsu (training which proved to be uselesss against 30% Itachi). He also tried to learn to use Kyuubis power and failed miserably until Bee helped. Anything else?


Oh, and pre-timeskip Naruto summoned Gamabunta (with Kyuubis help) and directly fought a released bijuu. A feat arguably far greater than anything post-timeskip Naruto did until the recent battles or the one against Pain.
I'd say that his 4 tailed mode is a better feat then the fight with Shukaku, but yea Neruto Post Timeskip failes to maintain the glory that Pre-Timeskip Naruto managed to gain after and during the Fight with Gaara and onwards.

Which is probably what turned off so many people because he was weaker than when he left in terms of feats.
 
#20
Leonite said:
datakim said:
Ashaman said:
While I don't have anything to add to the idea itself, I feel the urge to point out the fact that Pre-TS Naruto didn't face and beat anything stronger than a chuunin (without significant backup), and Post-TS he was facing S-Ranks on even footing, the idea he didn't get any stronger is a misconception.á

Learning nothing new =/= not getting stronger.
Just out of curiosity, which S-rank enemy did Naruto face on equal level using nothing but Jiraiyas timeskip training.

And dont say Orochimaru, Kyuubi did that, not Naruto. Naruto was not even conscious at the time given how he hurt Sakura.

Kakuzu happened after the FRS supertraining via clonecheating. He got this training from Kakashi, while Jiraiya apparently had not even tested Narutos elemental affinity or explained what it even was.

Nagato happened after instant-superboost via Sage Mode that pretty much came out of nowhere. Naruto also got this training from Fukasaku, while Jiraiya had not even considered this option despite Narutos huge chakra reserves making it a very logical skill for Naruto. A fact confirmed when Naruto mastered it in a week or so and became better at it than Jiraiya.

All the rest happened after he got KCM/BM thanks to SM. He was trained by Bee here, and got assistance from (indirectly) Minato and from Kushina. Jiraiyas only contribution was giving him the key (which came from Minato and was intended for Naruto in the first place)

Did I actually forget someone? :huh:

Oh right, he did defeat a 30% clone of Itachi that Kakashi had already grabbed and immobilized so that all Naruto needed to do was run and hit him with a rasengan (Konohamaru could have done that). And Deidara who was already badly hurt by Kamui and who obviously could not fight with all he had due to risk of killing Naruto and therefore Kyuubi.

What did manga confirm Naruto did during the timeskip? His taijutsu that was a bit better, but not massively so. He learned a bigger rasengan and he trained to break free from genjutsu (training which proved to be uselesss against 30% Itachi). He also tried to learn to use Kyuubis power and failed miserably until Bee helped. Anything else?


Oh, and pre-timeskip Naruto summoned Gamabunta (with Kyuubis help) and directly fought a released bijuu. A feat arguably far greater than anything post-timeskip Naruto did until the recent battles or the one against Pain.
He pretty much handed Deidara's ass to him once Deidara stopped running away... might've killed him if he had gone to 3 tails.
A deidara with only one arm and was already exhausted.
 

Knyght

The Collector
#21
Naruto got stronger after the timeskip. That's a fact.

But the problem was never how strong Naruto was, but his use of the Kyuubi. It prevented him from fully demonstrating his growth. It's understandable in a way, both because of the highly-emotional situations Naruto got involved in and because it was meant to be a part of his character development i.e. relying on his own strength to save his friend(s).

The problem is that it wasn't done very well from a storytelling perspective. We didn't get to see Naruto participate in a legitimate fight until the Kakuzu fight which was a fair way into Part 2 and this was after more training. Thus, it makes Naruto look weak as piss and is a major disappointment for the readers. (IMO, It would have been better if Akatsuki was a larger organisation to provide more fights, but oh well).

The fact that Naruto learnt wind training and created the FRS is irrelevant. The purpose of the training was meant to be more symbolic than anything and the technique isn't special; it's simply a more lethal version of an already lethal technique. Until he learned to throw it, was a really pointless technique. Naruto nearly killed Kakuzu with little effort and the only reason he failed is because the FRS 'broke'. If Naruto had used the Oodama Rasengan, given the sheer destructive ability it possesses, I bet that match would have ended pretty damn quickly. In which case, it would show that Naruto's capable of going toe-to-toe with S-rank shinobi.

Getting back to the actual point of the thread, I'm with daniel gudman. His post is essentially what I meant when I said that leaving Konoha was counter-productive.
 

MTing

Well-Known Member
#22
Just teach Naruto a different version of Bushin's to make them able to take a beating and Henge them into Team mates while restricting him to only creating 3. Then, force his "team" to play Devil's advocate.
This way, he get's experience leading a "team" that won't compromise him, he becomes knowledgeable in planning strategies (when people keep trying to shoot down your ideas, you have to make the plans close to prefect) and he gets to understand the weight of leadership.

His taijutsu and ninjutsu can be practiced with his Kage bunshin, but being political savvy and tactically inclined takes experience.
 

Shirotsume

Not The Goddamn @dmin
#23
I'm going to assume all the 'teaching politics' hate is because you all hate the idea of Naruto not being uberstrong at the end of training trip. Let's all keep in mind here- Jiraiya trusts Naruto to have this shit.

Let's look at canon. Does he have this shit?

Ayup.



Now, let's look at this in order.

Daniel: Static locations are not defensible against S-rank shinobi. Leaving Naruto in a static location, and then having Jiraiya leave regularly is pretty much the definition of 'Let's fuck Naruto in the ass!'

Remember- priority #1 of the training trip was, and always has been, to hide the shit out of Naruto, and failing that, for Jiraiya to protect him.

If static locations were safe, which do you think would be safer- Konoha proper, or some podunk village that already lost it's jinchuuriki? And keep in mind, even Konoha proper isn't safe enough- becuase Itachi/Kiasame already GOT THERE. If Naruto had been in Konoha right then, that probably would have been game.

datakim: "Remove all of those(FRS, SM and KCM/BM), and then put Naruto against say Kisame or Nagato."

OK, but in the interest of being fair, if you're arbitrarily nerfing Naruto into the fucking ground, then Nagato doesn't get his Rinnegan, and Kiasame doesn't get his sword.

Seriously datakim, are you even fucking reading what you're writing? "HEY GAISE, IF WE REMOVE ALL HIS SKILLS, THEN HE'S TERRIBLE."

No shit, dumbfuck.

Ashaman: Thank you. People here are like pre-TS Naruto-if it's not new and shiny, it doesn't count. Yes, Naruto will get better and stronger, and more well-rounded. He just will not be learning hyper-explosive flashy shit, because he already has that down pat. I mean, seriously, does Naruto know, canonically, a C-rank jutsu? He has 2 D-ranks (henge/Kawiarmi) I think, three if you count Oirokie, and from there just A/S ranks.

datakim bitching again: Again, you seem to think that the training he did post-timeskip doesn't count. Also, if you truly believe that, then it only reinforces the storypoint- that Naruto didn't need to focus on bigger and flashier shit, because he would be fine once they got back into things.

Also, datakim, you seem to be ignoring the fact that Naruto is better just because the viewer's viewpoint gets better along with it. Could pre-TS Naruto even see the people he faced post-timeskip? Hell, he couldn't even see Zabuza, and he was A-class. Don't forget, as the viewer, your viewpoint speeds up with the protaganist, because if the only thing illustrated is blurs because everyone faster, it's fucking boring. And you don't just 'get faster.' you have to tighten your taijutsu, counter the deleterious effects of more speed (momentum is a bitch) and such.

Hotaru: Don't double post please, it's considered impolite. I don't personally care, but a lot of people do.

knight504: What part of "Get this kid of out of Konoha, keep him safe, keep him hidden, train him in what you can" is not getting through to you?

MTing: You're confusing field leadership experience for high-level decision making. Two completely different things leading a squad on a mission, and leading an entire army.


tl;dr: I probably just pissed off a lot of you, and I can't say you didn't deserve it.
 

Knyght

The Collector
#24
knight504: What part of "Get this kid of out of Konoha, keep him safe, keep him hidden, train him in what you can" is not getting through to you?
That's not the point I'm making. Leaving Konoha's a necessity but the premise for this idea means that it'd make sense for Naruto to get involved with a ninja village at some point. There's only so much he can learn from a group which aren't directly involved with shinobi when he's training to become a leader of them.

TBH, I don't see why both storylines can't be implemented into the fic. Working with a Lord and then working with a ninja village incognito would be beneficial as it would give him valuable experience and different perspectives to work with.
 

Shirotsume

Not The Goddamn @dmin
#25
knight504 said:
knight504: What part of "Get this kid of out of Konoha, keep him safe, keep him hidden, train him in what you can" is not getting through to you?
That's not the point I'm making. Leaving Konoha's a necessity but the premise for this idea means that it'd make sense for Naruto to get involved with a ninja village at some point. There's only so much he can learn from a group which aren't directly involved with shinobi when he's training to become a leader of them.

TBH, I don't see why both storylines can't be implemented into the fic. Working with a Lord and then working with a ninja village incognito would be beneficial as it would give him valuable experience and different perspectives to work with.
The issue with that is what I told daniel gudman- a static location is not a defensible location against S-rankers like Itachi/co.

Konoha wasn't even safe.

Why would somewhere else be, especially when they've shown themselves to be great at tracking down jinchurriki in hiding?
 
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