Naruto What Really Happened on the Training Trip

Ina_meishou

Well-Known Member
#26
Shiro, I think what people are saying is that most of Naruto's apparent advancement after the timeskip was accomplished on page...after the timeskip .

The issue then isn't that 'if you take away all his cool stuff he sucks', but rather that during and directly after the timeskip he did not in fact have most of those cool skills. He learned them afterwards.

I'll be frank, I find the idea of Naruto learning politics and espionage and manipulation and all to be great. But I find the 'you got that shit' aspect to be really quite....irresponsible on Jiraya's part. The kid can make clones, and those clones can look like anyone. There's no reason he cannot or should not use that and learn more than one thing at a time. We as readers know that Naruto will later get specialized training and learn a bunch of stuff, but unless Jiraya had that all planned out (which would be difficult to believably credit since various people taught the kid various things in response to various problems) then he doesn't.

It breaks suspension of disbelief. :huh.:
 

Leonite

Well-Known Member
#27
I'm gonna disagree on the lack of training thing. While Naruto didn't come back ready to kick the ass of S-Ranks, he had Oodama Rasengan and its implied that a large chunk of the time was spent on Kyuubi Chakra training. We also know that Naruto has been practising his chakra control as he can summon specific toads (at least in fillers)

The problem is while Naruto came back better, it wasn't as big a shift as either Sasuke or, admittadly, Sakura (Who had super healing and Tsunade's strength). Naruto mainly focused on making what he had better, his Kyuubi Chakra usage, his Rasengan, his summoning and his chakra control
 

biomonkey

Well-Known Member
#28
The idea of Naruto learning to use his head more, getting into political shenanigans and giving the character more depth while still keeping a measure of humour sounds like a hell of a lot more of an interesting slice-of-life story than "Naruto goes around learning a bunch of new jutsu".

It's different, it's interesting, and judging by the first chapter you can write it well.

Carry on.
 

Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
#29
In my personal head-canon I like to believe that Jiraiya spent a great deal of the training trip teaching Naruto meditation and chakra control techniques that wouldn't help in direct combat but prepared him for eventually mastering Sage Mode. This would make his perfectly mastering in a mere few days a skill that Jiraiya had studied for a lifetime and still couldn't get exactly right quite a bit more plausible.

Maybe you could work some of that in there?
 

Shirotsume

Not The Goddamn @dmin
#30
Leonite said:
I'm gonna disagree on the lack of training thing. While Naruto didn't come back ready to kick the ass of S-Ranks, he had Oodama Rasengan and its implied that a large chunk of the time was spent on Kyuubi Chakra training. We also know that Naruto has been practising his chakra control as he can summon specific toads (at least in fillers)

The problem is while Naruto came back better, it wasn't as big a shift as either Sasuke or, admittadly, Sakura (Who had super healing and Tsunade's strength). Naruto mainly focused on making what he had better, his Kyuubi Chakra usage, his Rasengan, his summoning and his chakra control
Leonite- you just put into words exactly what I'm trying to get across here.

They're focusing on making what he has better, and adding him using his head/politics/economics/etc.

Remember- Jiraiya WILL be doing more than just teaching him cerebral pursuits, he'll focus on physical pursuits too- they just aren't, out of the new things naruto will learn, the focus.

And if your issue is specifically the fact that Jiraiya is throwing aside the issue of Akatsuki and such... are you really taking what Jiraiya said, in-story, as truth? Even when he, not two paragraphs away, is worrying about them?

He's trying to calm Naruto down. A little faith in your student goes a long way, especially with a student like Naruto who is unused to such faith.
 

Amberion

Well-Known Member
#31
I thought Akatsuki pretty much took a 3 year vacation from hunting Bijuus. Is my memory that bad? If it's not, then there wouldn't be a need to be incognito. And hence, it would make more sense of having him around Konoha learning that.

And if it's to groom him for becoming Hokage, it would be better if Naruto worked with Konoha shinobi, and even a few mission close to the fire Daimyo.
 

WarGiver

Well-Known Member
#32
The situation with Akatsuki is this: (This was established as both Post-TS and Pre-TS plot, so some of it is retacon)

1) Akatsuki was not ready to start sealing the Biju yet
2) Itachi's appearances was to ballance out several plans between reminding the Elders of Konoha that he is alive and NOT TO HURT SASUKE. His appearance in Konoha after the sound invasion was him saying "I can still get to you and I can prove you murdered a clan" Thus the people in question already would prefer to find some way to not harm Sasuke. (Danzo not withstanding)
3) The rest of Konoha knew none of this including Jiraiya
4) Itachi did give Naruto a way to subvert Sasuke directly and was still Loyal to Konoha in Post-TS (Again Nobody knew this until the war when the plan sorta backfired)


So yes Akatsuki isn't an active threat, and odds are good if Itachi could get away without IDing Naruto he just might do it. However again Nobody knows this.
 

Ina_meishou

Well-Known Member
#33
Shirotsume said:
And if your issue is specifically the fact that Jiraiya is throwing aside the issue of Akatsuki and such... are you really taking what Jiraiya said, in-story, as truth? Even when he, not two paragraphs away, is worrying about them?
What he said? No. What he's doing? Yes.

Faith in a student goes a long way, faith that they can learn everything you need to teach them, not that they don't need you to teach them much at all. Everything you have Jiraya planning to teach naruto is something he could use and really does need, politics, espionage, a broader base of low level ninjutsu, higher taijutsu etc.

What gets me isn't any of that, nor is it a lack of 'shiny' stuff. It's the way Akatsuki, and Orochimaru for that matter, are sort of dismissed. "Oh yeah, well we'll get your speed up and you'll be fine, now here our focus is going to be gaming the councilors to get Sasuke back, they're your real problem".

I'd hope that Jiraya knows, and is smart enough to inform his student, that the 'real problem' is the nine+ s-rank monsters that are going to try and kill him and then take over the world, some of whom have been refining their techniques for longer than any normal human could survive. And that before (or at least while, given the ability to abuse the fuck out of shadow clones) he worries about manipulating Konoha to save his friend/rival, he needs to figure out how to survive.

Flashy? Who cares about flashy, the concern is that it does, in the post time skip manga, take more than just 'pre timeskip naruto with some new c rank ninjutsu and decent taijutsu' to successfully compete. It takes sage mode, his ludicrous rasengan variants, his improved taijutsu, etc. etc. And the concern is that that should not be surprising in the least, since he's been a shinobi for a few months while his opponents have years of decades of experience.

It's just....how to put it....Jiraya sounds very focused on the politics, and very dismissive of anything else. And I'd normally applaud that in a fic because it's new and interesting and all. But here, where it's being focused on despite the characters knowing that there is a very real, very large gap in ability between the kid and those who he's going to have to deal with...it feels off.

So it's not a matter of 'what' you have him learning, exactly, but the way Jiraya is talking about it. I suppose a bit where Jiraya explains exactly why he thinks that buffing taijutsu will be enough (talk about synergy with the rasengan or whatever you come up with) and him acknowledging that Naruto would have to work hard at it and spend a lot of time on it while they're covering the politics at the same time would help.

:huh.:


It's your idea and fic and all that, but the point of this board is critique and response (nominally anyway). I can only tell you what it feels like to read it, and what leaps out to the reader. And what leaps out of it as you've written is that it's an interesting idea but Jiraya comes off as a bit of an idiot.
 

Amberion

Well-Known Member
#34
WarGiver said:
The situation with Akatsuki is this: (This was established as both Post-TS and Pre-TS plot, so some of it is retacon)

1) Akatsuki was not ready to start sealing the Biju yet
2) Itachi's appearances was to ballance out several plans between reminding the Elders of Konoha that he is alive and NOT TO HURT SASUKE. His appearance in Konoha after the sound invasion was him saying "I can still get to you and I can prove you murdered a clan" Thus the people in question already would prefer to find some way to not harm Sasuke. (Danzo not withstanding)
3) The rest of Konoha knew none of this including Jiraiya
4) Itachi did give Naruto a way to subvert Sasuke directly and was still Loyal to Konoha in Post-TS (Again Nobody knew this until the war when the plan sorta backfired)


So yes Akatsuki isn't an active threat, and odds are good if Itachi could get away without IDing Naruto he just might do it. However again Nobody knows this.
I thought it was Jiraiya that said that Akatsuki wouldn't hunt for the bijuu for the next 3 years?
 

Shirotsume

Not The Goddamn @dmin
#35
Ina_meishou said:
Shirotsume said:
And if your issue is specifically the fact that Jiraiya is throwing aside the issue of Akatsuki and such... are you really taking what Jiraiya said, in-story, as truth? Even when he, not two paragraphs away, is worrying about them?
What he said? No. What he's doing? Yes.

Faith in a student goes a long way, faith that they can learn everything you need to teach them, not that they don't need you to teach them much at all. Everything you have Jiraya planning to teach naruto is something he could use and really does need, politics, espionage, a broader base of low level ninjutsu, higher taijutsu etc.

What gets me isn't any of that, nor is it a lack of 'shiny' stuff. It's the way Akatsuki, and Orochimaru for that matter, are sort of dismissed. "Oh yeah, well we'll get your speed up and you'll be fine, now here our focus is going to be gaming the councilors to get Sasuke back, they're your real problem".

I'd hope that Jiraya knows, and is smart enough to inform his student, that the 'real problem' is the nine+ s-rank monsters that are going to try and kill him and then take over the world, some of whom have been refining their techniques for longer than any normal human could survive. And that before (or at least while, given the ability to abuse the fuck out of shadow clones) he worries about manipulating Konoha to save his friend/rival, he needs to figure out how to survive.

Flashy?? Who cares about flashy, the concern is that it does, in the post time skip manga, take more than just 'pre timeskip naruto with some new c rank ninjutsu and decent taijutsu' to successfully compete.? It takes sage mode, his ludicrous rasengan variants, his improved taijutsu, etc. etc.? And the concern is that that should not be surprising in the least, since he's been a shinobi for a few months while his opponents have years of decades of experience.
It's just....how to put it....Jiraya sounds very focused on the politics, and very dismissive of anything else. And I'd normally applaud that in a fic because it's new and interesting and all. But here, where it's being focused on despite the characters knowing that there is a very real, very large gap in ability between the kid and those who he's going to have to deal with...it feels off.

So it's not a matter of 'what' you have him learning, exactly, but the way Jiraya is talking about it. I suppose a bit where Jiraya explains exactly why he thinks that buffing taijutsu will be enough (talk about synergy with the rasengan or whatever you come up with) and him acknowledging that Naruto would have to work hard at it and spend a lot of time on it while they're covering the politics at the same time would help.

:huh.:


It's your idea and fic and all that, but the point of this board is critique and response (nominally anyway). I can only tell you what it feels like to read it, and what leaps out to the reader. And what leaps out of it as you've written is that it's an interesting idea but Jiraya comes off as a bit of an idiot.
Ahh, OK. Thanks for taking the time to write all that out, ina.

OK, so, obviously some rewrite is in order- because that's not how I wanted that to appear.

So, in order!

Faith in a student goes a long way, faith that they can learn everything you need to teach them, not that they don't need you to teach them much at all. Everything you have Jiraya planning to teach naruto is something he could use and really does need, politics, espionage, a broader base of low level ninjutsu, higher taijutsu etc.
I never meant to have Jiraiya imply that he didn't need to teach him much at all- what was supposed to be implied is that Naruto WOULD be able to learn all that stuff.

What gets me isn't any of that, nor is it a lack of 'shiny' stuff. It's the way Akatsuki, and Orochimaru for that matter, are sort of dismissed. "Oh yeah, well we'll get your speed up and you'll be fine, now here our focus is going to be gaming the councilors to get Sasuke back, they're your real problem".
Ah. I was wondering if that seemed heavy-handed, apparently it was. I was trying not to focus too much on the whole councilors thing. What it should have went down as was "We'll be able to get you to be able to run with the big boys- you need a broader base, though. You need to think more. For example, how would you keep Sasuke free?"
And Jiraiya expects naruto to not have a damn clue, and then his point is made- that they need to spend time getting Naruto to think. Except Jiraiya is mildly surprised, because naruto actually can think pretty fast on his feet, it's just that he never does unless directly challenged.

Also, orochimaru ISN'T an issue to Jiraiya- he has no intention of letting Naruto even touch that kettle of fish. He's just asking about Sasuke to drive the point home.

I'd hope that Jiraya knows, and is smart enough to inform his student, that the 'real problem' is the nine+ s-rank monsters that are going to try and kill him and then take over the world, some of whom have been refining their techniques for longer than any normal human could survive. And that before (or at least while, given the ability to abuse the fuck out of shadow clones) he worries about manipulating Konoha to save his friend/rival, he needs to figure out how to survive.
He knows, and he will inform him. Just not when Naruto's emotionally wrecked.
I think part of this issue may be what constitutes 'not a focus' for me vs. other people. They will be training every day. Just not most of the day. You can't just 'not train' taijutsu for a week or two, then train for a few hours and be good for a while. Focus, for Naruto, is spending 18-hour days training until he drops, sleeping, and doing it again. Not focused, for Naruto, is what most people would probably consider a heavy training session.

Flashy? Who cares about flashy, the concern is that it does, in the post time skip manga, take more than just 'pre timeskip naruto with some new c rank ninjutsu and decent taijutsu' to successfully compete. It takes sage mode, his ludicrous rasengan variants, his improved taijutsu, etc. etc. And the concern is that that should not be surprising in the least, since he's been a shinobi for a few months while his opponents have years of decades of experience.
Sage mode was only really needed for Pein- and they had no idea that someone like Pein could even exist, let alone be in Akatsuki. The ludicrous Rasengan variants are just that- ludicrous. There won't be 400 fucking rasengan styles in this story. You have rasengan, which chews things up like it was billed, and possibly later the rasenshuriken which is basically a flying void zone with how it vaporizes things. Taijutsu will be improved anyway.

And yes, he's been a shinobi a few months. A shinobi who can run toe-to-toe with the fucking one tails. And win. Think about that for a second or two. In a few months, he was strong enough to take the motherfucking one tails.
Add on three years of training- not nothing but training, but training none-the-less, and getting this kid to start actually thinking, and holy shit.

It's just....how to put it....Jiraya sounds very focused on the politics, and very dismissive of anything else. And I'd normally applaud that in a fic because it's new and interesting and all. But here, where it's being focused on despite the characters knowing that there is a very real, very large gap in ability between the kid and those who he's going to have to deal with...it feels off.
Hopefully if I change the rest, this oddness will fall away. Part of it is the fact that Jiraiya is desperately steering the conversation the hell away from training, because he can't have Naruto blowing up at him and he's already pushing it.

So it's not a matter of 'what' you have him learning, exactly, but the way Jiraya is talking about it. I suppose a bit where Jiraya explains exactly why he thinks that buffing taijutsu will be enough (talk about synergy with the rasengan or whatever you come up with) and him acknowledging that Naruto would have to work hard at it and spend a lot of time on it while they're covering the politics at the same time would help.
I would kinda prefer for him not to go into that- the next day? Sure. Right then? Naruto is displaying every sign of freaking the fuck out, so Jiraiya would probably like to avoid that.

It's your idea and fic and all that, but the point of this board is critique and response (nominally anyway). I can only tell you what it feels like to read it, and what leaps out to the reader. And what leaps out of it as you've written is that it's an interesting idea but Jiraya comes off as a bit of an idiot.
Fair enough.
 

WarGiver

Well-Known Member
#36
Amberion said:
I thought it was Jiraiya that said that Akatsuki wouldn't hunt for the bijuu for the next 3 years?
He might have. But the question is how did he know? That was never addressed. Maybe Itachi? some other mole in the group?

Or perhaps he found out from Orochimaru somehow.
 

datakim

Well-Known Member
#37
Shirotsume said:
datakim: "Remove all of those(FRS, SM and KCM/BM), and then put Naruto against say Kisame or Nagato."

OK, but in the interest of being fair, if you're arbitrarily nerfing Naruto into the fucking ground, then Nagato doesn't get his Rinnegan, and Kiasame doesn't get his sword.

Seriously datakim, are you even fucking reading what you're writing? "HEY GAISE, IF WE REMOVE ALL HIS SKILLS, THEN HE'S TERRIBLE."

No shit, dumbfuck.
I think its you who are dumbfuck here.

You equate Narutos FRS, SM and KCM/BM to Nagatos Rinnegan. And you are totally correct, without his Rinnegan!hax, Nagato would basically be fodder. Ofcourse by that comparison, Naruto without FRS, SM and KCM/BM would also be fodder.

So answer me this.

Who taught Naruto FRS?
Who taught Naruto about elemental manipulation and tested what his affinity was?
Who taught Naruto about Kage Bunshin memory cheat?
Who taught Naruto SM?
Who taught Naruto the advanced Frog Kumite taijutsu?
Who taught Naruto KCM and mastering his bijuu?

Was the answer to a single of those questions Jiraiya?

That was the point that you so happily strawmanned by claiming that I was taking all of Narutos advantages away. I did so, because those advantages were NOT TAUGHT BY JIRAIYA. Naruto got them from Kakashi, Fukasaku and Bee. Jiraiya taught Naruto a bigger rasengan, genjutsu breaking that did not work when he actually needed it and maybe a bit better taijutsu. This against the absolute elite of the elite of the entire _world_.

So I repeat my question. If you took the canon Naruto that had JUST come from his training trip with Jiraiya (as in the same day), and put him against Nagato, Kakuzu, Kisame or heck, even Konan. Do you really think Naruto would have any chance at all with his taijutsu thats a bit better and a bigger rasengan?

No.
 

WarGiver

Well-Known Member
#38
Hmm Aside from the kyuubi accident nothing much is actually said/shown about the time skip. Realistically Jiraiya has two options:

1) Smarten Naruto up and use the Hokage position as bait for what he is doing.
2) Load Naruto up with loads of Jutsus just like Orochimaru is doing to Sasuke and hope Naruto will be able to deal with any threats that appear.

Both have their problems

#1 has the problem of being too focused on making Naruto politically intelligent as this idea goes, it will probably end up without divating too far from Cannon initally but like the butterfly effect things will change over time

#2 has the problem of Naruto being little more then either Nagato v2 or Minato v2 depending on how it goes. Both Nagato and Minato were taught focused on battlefield tactics. With Nagato being focused on survival in general and Minato on survival and leadership. Neither turned out particulary well in the end and due to both either directly or indirectly Naruto suffered. (Not intentionally or specifically, but if Minato was a little more craftier in politics then maybe he could have left a plan for Saritobi to follow.)

Both have their good points:

#1 has Naruto be able to think more about what he is doing and how to manipulate others. He already does this to an extent as is, and has turned enemy Ninja to his side before.

#2 is Naruto being a juggernaut on the battlefield, but not being much of a leader. He would truely be what a container is meant to be, a weapon to be aimed and used. But Jiraiya would make sure Naruto could survive such a life.

Cannon seemed to go the middle road. Naruto can still talk sense into people, but he also had the base there to win fights. He did teach somethings and he did try to push the limits. But in more then one way he both failed and succeeded. After all it was his words that let Naruto turn Nagato.

--

Jiraiya 'thinks' Naruto is the boy he was told he would teach that would change the world at that time. He thinks Nagato is dead, knows Minato is, and doesn't plan to teach after Naruto. Thus what ever he teaches Naruto will be stuff to help him reach that future and survive to enjoy it.

So how would you have Jiraiya teach Naruto?

Personally I like the Politically sneaky Naruto.
 

datakim

Well-Known Member
#39
WarGiver said:
Hmm Aside from the kyuubi accident nothing much is actually said/shown about the time skip.á Realistically Jiraiya has two options:

1)á Smarten Naruto up and use the Hokage position as bait for what he is doing.
2)á Load Naruto up with loads of Jutsus just like Orochimaru is doing to Sasuke and hope Naruto will be able to deal with any threats that appear.
Why could he not do both? He has _three years_. Naruto learned rasengan in a couple of weeks, and mastered SM better than Jiraiya has in his entire lifetime in another week or two.

Add to this the potential for clone-cheating and the idea that Jiraiya would be forced to choose between training Narutos brain and training him in politics or teaching him to be a better fighter is nonsense. He can _easily_ do both. And realistically he should given what he knows about the people coming for Naruto.

Thats whats so pathetic about the timeskip. In three years, Naruto learned virtually nothing. Don't try talking about faster reactions or better taijutsu. We are talking three years with one of the greatest shinobi alive. Realistically Naruto should have been a LOT stronger.

I suppose I can understand that for plot reasons, Naruto could not be super-hyper-strong straight from the beginning. If there was no one to challenge him, the series would get boring pretty fast. However its equally clear that Kishi went too far in the opposite direction by having Naruto learn basically nothing.

I think thats why we got all the "cheats". For example, how plausible is it that Naruto who uses shadow clones every day for everything would fail to notice that he gets their memories? The very idea is laughable. But since the series had failed to have Jiraiya teach FRS to Naruto during the timeskip, the author had to invent a way for Kakashi to teach it to Naruto in a week, which meant that suddenly clones could be used for training.

SM is the same in many ways. A sudden super-powerup that had never been mentioned before which Naruto mastered in record time simply because he had to in order to have any chance against Nagato. The only other option would have been to gimp Nagato, which would have ruined the Akatsuki as villains.

EDIT:
If it had been written better, Jiraiya would have had Naruto doing lot of prepwork for SM (meditating and being still and that stuff). Jiraiya would also have had Naruto learn he had wind nature and maybe started on FRS or even finished the 50% version. Instead, Naruto has no idea about what elemental affinity even is, and then invents FRS (which the supergenius Minato never achieved) in a week, and then with no preparation becomes a perfect sage in another week, making Jiraiya look utterly silly for failing to do that in decades.
 

Shirotsume

Not The Goddamn @dmin
#40
datakim, I'm just going to ignore you now. Come back when you have something constructive to say, instead of rampant BAWWWWW.
 

Cosgrove

Well-Known Member
#41
Well, to be fair datakim does have something legitimate to say.

I'm not saying that Naruto didn't get stronger over the timeskip. He did. There's no denying it.

HOWEVER, datakim brings up a very real point: Akatsuki are a bunch of tough motherfuckers. Uchiha Itachi and Hoshigaki Kisame ARE a big deal. Itachi killed his whole clan and can easily take down ninja like Kakashi, and nobody knows about his eye/health degradation meaning he has the threat of coma-ing anyone with a LOOK, let alone his other abilities. Kisame's strong enough to be known as the Bijuu without a tail. Enough said.

And they aren't in charge of Akatsuki, which means that there's probably someone powerful or cunning enough to get them working under their banner.

Now, its good that Naruto worked on his basics. He did get some skills, but the fact is that for the most part, his amazing feats such as beating Shukaku relied upon him relying on the Kyuubi heavily. And trying to use more of the Kyuubi's chakra was indeed one of the major things it seems that Jiraiya focused on in canon.

However, this was a bad idea for several reasons and Jiraiya really should have known better.

The first is that, as implied by the Uchiha being segregated after the Kyuubi attack, it was thought that they might have a way to control the Kyuubi like Madara did, so why would you have him rely on something that could easily be turned against you especially with said Uchiha as one of the ones after Naruto. Why would you teach someone to rely on the Kyuubi's chakra if it could be controlled by Sharingan? And hey you know what Sasuke did when he encountered Naruto after time skip? He fucking subdued the Kyuubi with his Sharingan.

Secondly, this is an organization going after Bijuu, which means they're either strong enough to subdue them or they have countermeasures against the Bijuu to subdue them. Hell, Orochimaru was able to deal with Kyuubi Naruto with one impromptu seal in the Chuunin Exams and he's WEAKER than Itachi as far as Akatsuki goes, and there's that seal that Jiraiya made to make the kyuubi chakra go dormant if Naruto went out of control, so there ARE countermeasures that can easily be applied to stop the Kyuubi's chakra from helping Naruto. Either way, it'd be best to make Naruto as strong as possible in the time they have as to make sure he survives, and making him rely on an uncertain quality such as the Kyuubi isn't a good idea.

Now, they're stuff introduced post time skip, such as elemental training, clone training, and sage mode. These have importance after the time skip for one reason: to quickly make Naruto into someone who is strong enough to fight Akatsuki. And they make Jiraiya look incompetent in hindsight considering with THREE YEARS, how little Naruto seemed to grow in comparison. They're powerups that were put into existence because Jiraiya...didn't make him strong enough to face Akatsuki.

Again, these are things, though well integrated in story and developed after the fact, that make Jiraiya look like he wasted three years of Naruto's time.

The clone training alone is, again retrospect to new retcons, unforgivable for Naruto not to have learned by the end of the timeskip. Considering how many clones Naruto can make it was a waste of INCREDIBLE learning potential as he can make hundreds of clones.

Elemental affinity is really something that should have been covered, considering how valuable and necessary it is to making new jutsu and that normally it takes a while to learn.

Sage mode, however, should have been the thing Naruto spent the trip learning. It makes him insanely more powerful, after all, and even if it would be something kept as a 'only if necessary card' by word of Jiraiya. And while learning it, they could totally have worked on Naruto basics safe at Mount myoboku where nobody could fucking find them.

Again, those are all things that only existed after the timeskip, so there was no way Naruto could have learned them from an outsider's perspective, like we have, but in inverse it makes Jiraiya look incredible incompetent as a teacher, which we know he isn't.


Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of Naruto learning politics a lot. However, as has been stressed he's got, excuse me for the term, Ninja Chuck Norrises coming for him, and they aren't sure of how many there are in total. Making sure the Kyuubi's container doesn't get captured and is strong enough to fight back and at least have a chance of winning is kinda more important than learning politics at this point.

And, furthermore, in canon the title of Hokage doesn't really go to the most political savvy. It goes to those who have the right mindset, to protect the village and its people, and the strength to do so. Its why both Hiruzen and Minato were made Hokage. Politics and being able to plan are important, yes, but that's why the Hokage has advisers to ADVISE the Hokage. If the most intelligent and cunning person was the one who'd become Hokage, Naruto would not even be in the running with people like Shikamaru who is the genius planner incarnate.

So again, I like the idea of Naurto learning politics, however it continues the canon feeling of incompetent Jiraiya as he feels like... stupidly arrogant considering the circumstances.

"Don't worry about the numerous insanely powerful people coming for you Naruto or the fact that you have to be strong enough to stop Orochimaru in three years to save your friend because you and I both know you refuse to give up on him and will go after him before Orochimaru can steal his body, whats more important is that you learn politics, because when the time comes you'll probably be strong enough to deal with these legendary powerful foes when they come after you en-mass... probably."

Are things like politics stuff Naruto probably SHOULD learn? Yes. However, again, it pales in comparison to the threat of a bunch of already powerful psychopaths gaining even more power in the form of the nine tailed beasts. There's really no way that any and all advantages shouldn't be given to Naruto because if he's captured it means what happened thirteen years ago when the Kyuubi 'attacked the village' happens again and again and AGAIN.
 

Knyght

The Collector
#42
I don't particularly care for this argument but I'll make a couple of points:

1. Why teach Naruto to use the Kyuubi's chakra? Because he's a jinchuuriki. If he learned to master its power he'd become one of the strongest shinobi on the planet.

2. The Kyuubi can be controlled by the Sharingan but Jiraiya has no way of knowing whether it can work on a Jinchuuriki. He could easily believe that if Naruto's using the chakra, then the Uchiha have no way of controlling it.

3. Sasuke didn't subdue the Kyuubi; he subdued the smidgen of his chakra that was outside the seal.

4. By the end of the timeskip, Naruto's strong enough to hold his own against S-rank; I've already said that the elemental training was unnecessary for him to beat Kakuzu. And that's not counting the fact that he also has competent teammates with him most of the time.

Leaving now.
 

Cosgrove

Well-Known Member
#43
Not denying that Naruto learning control over the Kyuubi's chakra was a bad thing, its a definite benefit... once he became friends with Kurama or even before that when he actually went through the efforts of trying to take control of the Kyuubi chakra. But before that with Jiraiya's method? Yes, he'd become powerful with it IF he gained control of it, but that's a BIG 'If' during pre-time-skip days and seemed like a bad decision overall for most of post-time skip.

Also, the thing is that Sasuke was able to supress Kyuubi's chakra. That what he DID there when Naruto was FAILING at pushing it back. There's no denying he suppressed its powers. And this is without the Mangekyou. Sasuke's fully evolved NORMAL Sharingan can do that.

And that's why teaching Naruto to be reliant on the Kyuubi's chakra alone is not the best idea.

Because as good as Sasuke is with the Sharingan, Itachi's better at Genjutsu and the mind. If even for a MINUTE he can disrupt Naruto's use of Kyuubi chakra use, then Naruto's lost and they can pretty easily grab the Kyuubi for extraction.

Also, I agree Naruto was on terms with S-ranked Ninja... when he was pumping the Kyuubi juice. He did afterall manage to fight Orochimaru to a standstill... as the Four-Tailed berserk Kyuubi Naruto. But against the clone of Itachi... he didn't do so good, IIRC. Against Deidara... wasn't he Two-tailed for all of that?

After that he gets training and is made a bit more powerful with a devastating attack. Then another power up called Sage mode where he COULD actually compete with the Big Boys of S-Rank on even terms.
 

Shirotsume

Not The Goddamn @dmin
#44
Cosgrove, instead of bitching about how Jiraiya looks incompetent, how about you read the topic and realize that's already been addressed?

Also, let's remember- Kiasame is the bijuu with no tail. Naruto's been there, beat that. Don't confuse stat inflation for badassery.

Also, it's not fair to assume that the others in Akatsuki were stronger. There are very few people on the level of Itachi and Kiasame. Keep in mind, a large portion of Akatsuki either are unknowns or presumed dead. And just because a person is a ninja's boss doesn't mean that they're stronger than their subordinate. Are you presuming Gatou could take Zabuza in a fight?
 

Cosgrove

Well-Known Member
#45
Well my point was not that Jiraiya's incompetent, but most of the post time skip powerups Naruto gained were stuff that he really could have and should have been the one to teach.

And I'd disagree on the Kisame and Itachi working for someone like Gato being a possibility for a couple of reasons, such as the fact that Itachi's only known motivation to all but a very select few is 'to test my capacity.' But the point is that if the other members are unknown and Itachi and Kisame are not the leaders then there's someone strong or smart enough to get them to work for him/her/them. It would be wise to estimate any threat from Akatsuki to be at their level and they'd be the ones coming after him again.

Ultimately, what I'm saying is that the point of the training trip is to make Naruto strong enough to be able to fight Akatsuki with the side benefit of being stong enough to drag Sasuke back to Konoha.

In canon, its poorly executed with much of the post time skip power-ups being things that Jiraiya should have taught him (clones and element affinity), but the point is that he did try to get Naruto up to that level.

With what you've written, and while I understand that you want to make this a political based story, and that Jiraiya is somewhat trying to calm Naruto, but what the core of his argument is.... is complete bullshit.

"Yes. Which is where I come in. Getting Sasuke back, beating the Akatsuki... you don't need my help with that, Naruto."
This whole statement here, along with this one:

"We will be keeping up with your taijutsu and chakra control. We don't want you falling behind in those, because that would cause irreparable damage down the line. But those will be an afterthought."
Would be great if this was a story where nobody knew about Akatsuki or they didn't exist.

But they do, and putting all efforts of making Naruto's survival a guarantee in order for him to learn politics is... retarded. I'm sorry, but Naruto would have been better off in Konoha learning from Tsunade on how to do the job and raising ranks in Konoha than off in the middle of nowhere.

Now if Jiraiya's plan was "I'm going to teach you a bunch of stuff that will be an ace in the hole, but they need to be secret and you can't use them unless you absolutely need to to keep them effective along with generally making you stronger. And when we take breaks, because I will be working you to the bone while training you, their purpose will be to better train you for the role of being Hokage as you learn the ins and outs of politics."

Then that would be an interesting story.

Don't argue that I want a super Naruto or that I'm shitting all over your idea. Because your idea DOES have merit, and Jiraiya, as the student of the third Hokage, the teacher of the Fourth Hokage, and a spy would be one of the best people to teach Naruto about politics.

However, as a writer you also need to keep the characters you are writing... in character. I liked how you wrote that Jiraiya wants to keep Naruto from going after Sasuke and Orochimaru, but much as Jiraiya acknowledged Sasuke being like Orochimaru he also acknowledged Naruto being like himself and knows Naruto isn't going to give up that easily on his closest friend and will probably will go after Sasuke anyway. He also knows Akatsuki will be after Naruto again and they have a very limited time frame to train Naruto up because Akatsuki is a dangerous organization.

TL;DR: Unless you want to write Jiraiya as being out of character by having him act incredibly stupid, there is no reasonable way to justify him teaching Naruto politics instead of training him to be strong enough to fight the threats coming for his life. The two might not be mutually exclusive, but one's incredibly more important considering that if Naruto fails a very dangerous organization then has the Kyuubi.

What I'm saying is not 'this is completely stupid' but rather 'while this is somewhat interesting you need to broaden and modify it to take other factors into consideration.'
 

Shirotsume

Not The Goddamn @dmin
#46
One moment, cosgrove, I'm compiling this into a huge.. infodump of sorts. It should hopefully answer/solve/blah any questions/concerns.

Consider things in this post to take precedence over other things.

1. Keep in mind, the snippet is rough. The wording may be imprecise. Don't take it as gospel for what the story idea is.

2. This story will diverge from canon.

3. The point of the training trip: Hide Naruto, protect Naruto, train Naruto, keep moving because static locations are not defensible against S-rankers.

4. Proportions of training: 35% physical, 65% mental. Physical training every day, focused on improving basics, with an emphasis on survival and evasion. tl;dr: Naruto spars Jiraiya, other training. Jutsu are minimal, rewarded, and low rank utility jutsu.

Keep in mind, this is still a physical training level that would kill most nin who aren't S-rank, Naruto, or Lee/Gai. People can't actually train all day long, so it's only a 'non-focus' for someone like Naruto. He's still going to be growing in skill ludicrously fast.

5. This means training is not neglected. It's just not going to be what Naruto expects, which is 24/7 awesomeness. The thing is, Naruto already has a strong top-tier game, with kage bunshin and rasengan. He needs a base, then you can build off that.

6. Rasengan does what it's billed as in my story. There is Rasengan, which rips the shit out of everything. The rasenshuriken just vaporizes things straight to base molecules. The oodama rasengan is large, slow and chewing things up, and unwieldy, but it's a damn good door knocker. Those are the only rasengan variants. The rasengan can, and will, fuck an S-rankers day up even with just a glancing hit.

7. Regarding Sage Mode training: Jiraiya DOES ask the toads for permission to have Naruto trained. It's denied because they're... well, without revealing a plot point, 'busy.'

8. Revealing Kage Bunshin ludicrousness: Naruto will not be making a shitload of clones to train with. He will know about memory transfer- the thing he DIDN'T know is that it could be used for training.

Because here's the issue: Naruto can't use kage bunshin training on the trip, or in most damn cases. Because when he trains with them, they become mini-kyuubis out of frustration. The clones tap into Kyuubi easier, and while it's easier for Tenzou to shut them down too- easy to come, easy to leave for clones, Tenzou ISN'T THERE. Jiraiya, as awesome as he is, is no Tenzou. Kage Bunshin training is a hack that only works with Naruto AND Tenzou. Tenzou is Naruto's cheat button. It took Kakashi- who knows of both of them and is well known in the series as a genius- to come up with the idea.

So no, there won't be any Kage Bunshin training.

9. Element Manipulation: Won't be learned either. It takes /years/ to learn this without kage bunshin cheat, so it's not an efficient use of their time for the return it gives them. Likewise, that means no Rasenshuriken on the trip.

10. The reason why they WON'T be doing training 24/7 is because, for one, Naruto needs the basics. They are the basics for a reason. Next, making him think is going to make him exponentially more dangerous. Remember the times we've seen naruto think in battle- like freeing Zabuza. Now imagine if he fought like that all the time.

Remember- for the most part, Naruto doesn't have to be able to beat S-rankers- priority is being able to escape from them. Everything past that is icing on the cake, and Naruto will be able to escape from them with decent reliability way before even the end of 3 years. So three years of training is, by definition, having your cake and eating it too. So Jiraiya can use the time to get Naruto thinking, and show him how the world works.
 
#47
elemental training would make a lot of sense, actually, to refine Naruto's chakra control. Not as a focus, but not something to discard all together.
Something like a before bed light training?
 

MinusMagnus

Well-Known Member
#48
That really explain a lot, but this:

8. Revealing Kage Bunshin ludicrousness: Naruto will not be making a shitload of clones to train with. He will know about memory transfer- the thing he DIDN'T know is that it could be used for training.

Because here's the issue: Naruto can't use kage bunshin training on the trip, or in most damn cases. Because when he trains with them, they become mini-kyuubis out of frustration. The clones tap into Kyuubi easier, and while it's easier for Tenzou to shut them down too- easy to come, easy to leave for clones, Tenzou ISN'T THERE. Jiraiya, as awesome as he is, is no Tenzou. Kage Bunshin training is a hack that only works with Naruto AND Tenzou. Tenzou is Naruto's cheat button. It took Kakashi- who knows of both of them and is well known in the series as a genius- to come up with the idea.
Isn't aplicable unless Jiraya already screwed up with the seal. Naruto was only going nuts at the drop of hat because of that. So Kage Bunshin can help with training, if only to give Naruto a sparring partner when his teacher is not really up to stomping a kid into the ground.
 

Shirotsume

Not The Goddamn @dmin
#49
Jiraiya doesn't screw with the seal here. Also, Naruto himself went Kyuubi no more often than he did before the seal change, so I imagine it's just a clone thing, not anything to do with the seal.

Also, kage bunshin sparring is one of the stupidest fanon ideas I have every heard of. You're fighting yourself, which means there's no point in sparring.

In any case, no Kage bunshin bullshit. Because it's downright stupid.

Ankodaishugun: Can you show me something from the manga that says it would improve his chakra control? Because I don't recall that.
 

Amberion

Well-Known Member
#50
3. The point of the training trip: Hide Naruto, protect Naruto, train Naruto, keep moving because static locations are not defensible against S-rankers.
Jiraiya knew that Akatsuki was taking a vacation, so I those things would be unnecessary. Well, not the training thing.

I like the idea of the story, but I think it would work better in a AU with no Akatsuki, or having a strong Naruto from the start. Otherwise you will have to have Naruto have several training arcs later. And I don't really feel they would fit into a politically based story. That, and training arcs are really boring unless they are done just right.

EDIT:
Also, kage bunshin sparring is one of the stupidest fanon ideas I have every heard of. You're fighting yourself, which means there's no point in sparring.
This is really untrue. If people train by going through katas, or using
, sparring against yourself would be a lot better.
 
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