Comic News

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#51
The second pic annoys me, since even primitive <a href='http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Protosaber' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>protosabers</a> aren't supposed to be invented for roughly nine thousand years after the era this is set in. I hope its a glowing sword, rather than the equivalent of a caveman with an M-16 (plus, didn't the announcement say they didn't have lightsabres, yet?).

EDIT: The apparent presence of a Twi'lek in the first pic is also a potential problem, as they're native to a planet that was discovered about 10,000 years before the Clone Wars. Its only a potential problem, because they could say that some ancient high-tech race like the <a href='http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gree_%28species%29' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Gree</a> or the <a href='http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rakata' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Rataka</a> moved some of them to other worlds.

I suppose they could have the lightsabre be found in ancient ruins, but that would be disappointing.
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#52
Ordo said:
Further pics related to 'Dawn of The Jedi'



First of all, protosabers won't exist for about 9 to 10,000 years, so that last pic is some massive bullshit. Bitches haven't even started yet, and they're already fucking continuity in the face. That does not bode well. My only hope is that either he's some kind of crazy time traveler and/or ghost from the future, it's just a sword that glows purple really brightly, or the weapon was constructed out of some green rock based magical supertechnology artifact, and we won't see anything like it again for ten thousand years after it gets destroyed by the protagonists for being too powerful a weapon.

Secondly, the flavor this is coming off as in the pictures thus far seems, strangely enough, like a more upbeat version of 40k. Just tilt the scales a little bit further from the tech side to the supernatural side, and you're there.

Strange.

[EDIT]

On pondering it, I suppose what it most resembles is not a modified Warhammer 40K, but rather Warhammer Fantasy in space. That's pretty much exactly how this looks. Anybody else seeing that?
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#53
OK, if the <a href='http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dawn_of_the_Jedi' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>wiki article</a> is accurate, the appearance of a lightsabre is even worse than we thought:

Plot summary

In 36,453 BBY, Force-sensitive sentients are brought to the planet Tython on eight Tho Yor Pyramid Ships. The Tython system is colonized over the next ten thousand years. When a mysterious and powerful Force Hound named Xesh arrives on Tython, a series of events is set in motion. Meanwhile, the stretch of the Rakatan Infinite Empire is felt across the galaxy. Dark and light begin to be polarized within the developing Jedi Order.
36,453 BBY. That's something like twenty-one thousand years before the lightsabre was supposed to be invented, and predates the Infinite Empire by more than a thousand years (which is less of a problem than it may first appear, since the date of the Empire's founding may have been vague - anyone have a quote?).
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#54
Prince Charon said:
OK, if the <a href='http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dawn_of_the_Jedi' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>wiki article</a> is accurate, the appearance of a lightsabre is even worse than we thought:

Plot summary

In 36,453 BBY, Force-sensitive sentients are brought to the planet Tython on eight Tho Yor Pyramid Ships. The Tython system is colonized over the next ten thousand years. When a mysterious and powerful Force Hound named Xesh arrives on Tython, a series of events is set in motion. Meanwhile, the stretch of the Rakatan Infinite Empire is felt across the galaxy. Dark and light begin to be polarized within the developing Jedi Order.
36,453 BBY. That's something like twenty-one thousand years before the lightsabre was supposed to be invented, and predates the Infinite Empire by more than a thousand years (which is less of a problem than it may first appear, since the date of the Empire's founding may have been vague - anyone have a quote?).
No, we don't. We know practically jack shit about the Rakatan Empire. I don't think there is a hard date on when it really gelled into being.

I'm reaffirming my hope that it's some kind of high technology artifact that will be destroyed for being too powerful.
 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
#55
What follows is from a recent interview.

CBR News: John, beginning at the top -- how would you describe the story you're telling in "Dawn of the Jedi," and what is its place in the "Star Wars" Expanded Universe?

John Ostrander: "Dawn of the Jedi" is epic in scope and personal in the telling. It's rooted in the "Star Wars" Expanded Universe continuity, but also designed to be accessible to those who know "Star Wars" only from the movies or the cartoons. We've taken the existing continuity, asked questions and have formed answers. For example, it was previously established that the galaxy's best philosophers, priests, scientists and warriors had come together on Tython millennia before the Jedi Order's formal founding. Well, that would be sort of difficult, given that hyperspace travel was not common at that time, and that Tython is in the Deep Core -- a place notoriously hard to navigate even in "modern" "Star Wars" times. So one of the first questions Jan and I asked ourselves was -- how did they get there? And why Tython?


"Dawn of the Jedi" covers a time period prior to the formation of the Jedi Order



It's also previously established that there were Force Wars (note plural) beginning in 25,793 BBY (Before the Battle of Yavin -- the Rebels' battle against the Death Star in "A New Hope") that lasted for about a decade. At the end, the proto-Jedi left the planet because of a Force Cataclysm and landed on Ossus 730 years later. So we're using -- sometimes clarifying and sometimes reinterpreting -- existing material to give the true story of how the Jedi came to be. I think that anyone with even a passing interest in "Star Wars" would be extremely interested in how it all began.

For those who know the background, "Dawn" will have reverberation and a lot of "Aha!" moments as they recognize these elements and see how we use them. If you know nothing about the background stories, it doesn't matter. Everything you need to know about the series will be in the series.

You're telling a story set in the very earliest days of the Jedi Order, and you've mentioned the Force Wars. When does "Dawn of the Jedi" take place relative to the Battle of Yavin?

Ostrander: It starts with the gathering of the Force sensitive sentients on Tython in 36,453 BBY. We move quickly as the rest of the Tython system is colonized and the series really gets going with events just prior to the Force Wars, which began in 25,793 BBY.

I believe there are stories that touch on pre-Jedi history, but this looks to highlight the time when they were first organizing. Is there a particular event that sparks the evolution?

Ostrander: There are two major events in "Dawn of the Jedi." The first event will be the gathering of Force sensitives on the planet Tython.

The second, and the event that begins to polarize dark and light within the Jedi Order, will be set into motion when another species enters the Tython system shortly before the Force Wars begin.

The press release mentions that in "Dawn of the Jedi" lightsabers have yet to appear. What does the Jedi Order, or the underlying religion, look like at this point in history?

Ostrander: This is the great lost culture of the Jedi, a "Star Wars" Atlantis. While many of the tenets have been set down, the beings who study the Force on Tython are not yet the Jedi. At this point, they are the Je'daii, a Dai Bendu term meaning mystic (je) center (daii). This will later be shortened to Jedi. The Je'daii have been brought to Tython, a planet where the Force is very strong, from around the galaxy and they have spent ten millennia studying the Force, attempting to understand it and their place in relationship to it. That doesn't mean they spend all the time in quiet meditation. The Je'daii are actively engaged with the Force, using its power in a moving meditation in their daily existence. They are still discovering many things about the Force and the power it gives them, experimenting with aspects of the Force sometimes lost or forbidden to later Jedi -- sometimes deliberately. In some cases, the Jedi learned from the mistakes their predecessors the Je'daii made -- some serious, serious mistakes.

The Je'daii don't see a division of the light and dark side; instead, they believe a balance is necessary between the two. The Je'daii are like the Titans in Greek mythology who came before the gods. They are beings of great power and ability, but not all-knowing. They struggle with the idea of balance in the Force and know that being out of balance affects their power and the planet Tython itself.

What does it mean to be a Jedi -- or Je'daii -- in this time?

Ostrander: The Je'daii have been on Tython for ten thousand years. To put that in perspective, here on Earth that would put us, from today, roughly at the Neolithic era, when wheat and barley were just starting to be cultivated. Ten thousand years ago the saber tooth cats were going extinct. Ten thousand years is a lot of time.

To be a Je'daii means constant involvement with the Force in every aspect of your life. There were four levels of attainment starting with the Padawan, or apprentice. After a certain point, you became a Je'daii Journeyer, going from temple to temple on Tython, increasing your knowledge and your skills. A Je'daii Ranger, the next level, would travel out among the Settled Worlds, sometimes at the request of the governments of those worlds, sometimes not. You went where the Force took you and you acted as the Force commanded -- which might not be as the governments or vested interests of the Settled Worlds would like. Finally, there were the Masters, including the Masters of the temples.

Have the Sith or other adherents of the dark side arisen yet, in this era?

Ostrander: We do have Sith, but they're of the Sith species, and not yet the Sith sect. They're members of the Sith species taken from Korriban and brought to Tython. Do not expect them to be evil. It was only later that the Dark Jedi masters came to Korriban and conquered the Sith, taking their name as the name of their Order. There will be those who stray too far to the dark side, but they are considered by the Je'daii to be out of balance. Those who fall out of balance are put into exile on one of Tython's moons until they can find a way back into balance. Those who go to far to the light side of the Force are also considered to be out of balance and are exiled to the other moon of Titan until they can find a way back into balance.

And then there are the Rakata.

For those who don't know them, the Rakata first appeared in the "Star Wars: Knights Of The Old Republic" video game, and they are nasty pieces of work. The Rakata focused only on the dark side of the Force and used it in their technology -- including their hyperdrives. The "Infinite Empire" of the Rakata stretched to different planets throughout various sectors in the galaxy. Usually these were Force-rich worlds. Jan and I are fascinated by the Rakata, but we also had some questions, such as "How did the Rakata find these worlds?" Well, we've come up with some answers that will also permit us to explore the Rakata and their culture a bit in the process. These are nasty sentients, folks. That makes them really good villains.


While "Legacy" looked to the future, Duursema needed to retrofit the look of "Dawn" for an earlier era



The "Dawn of the Jedi" era is set somewhat before the formation of the Galactic Republic. What does the organization of the universe look like at this point?

Ostrander: The Republic was created in 25,053 BBY which would be 740 years after the Je'daii left Tython, and only about a decade after they landed on Ossus. So our story predates the Republic by a bit. In the "Dawn" era, the Rakatan Infinite Empire would have been very active in the galaxy. They had a kind of hyperspace capability and used it to conquer planets around the galaxy, including planets in the Deep Core such as Byss.

What's more important to our story than the state of the galaxy at that point is the Tython solar system. Remember, getting into or out of -- or even navigating around -- the Deep Core is very difficult. However, "Star Wars" has a history of its heroes going to different locations and planets and experiencing different cultures and societies.

What we've done is focus on the Tython planetary system. In the 10,000 years since the first Je'daii landed on Tython, their descendants have gone out and developed these other planets and moons, which we call the Settled Worlds. Jan and I have put a lot of thought into all this and created new potential places to take our story. We won't get to all of them right away, but we know what they are and their backstory, so we have places to go.

Now that we've got a feeling for this era of "Star Wars" mythology, who are the main characters of this series? Who are our heroes, and what are they up against?

Ostrander: As fans of "Legacy" will remember, we tend to have a big cast of characters and like a wide canvas on which to tell our stories. It's no different here. We have both Je'daii and non-Je'daii. We'll have a wide raft of sentients from which to draw (it ain't "Star Wars" without lots of aliens) and all kinds of characters.

At the center of it all are three young Je'daii Jouneyers. Shae Koda is a Dathomiri female; both of her parents were killed before our story opens in an event called The Despot War. Shae is young, brave, restless, rash, and a bit reckless. With an incessant curiosity about everything, she does not accept things on blind faith and is not afraid to ask questions, even about things that are considered accepted.

Sek'nos Rath is a young Sith male. Born to Je'daii parents who travel the system as diplomats, he was raised by his maternal grandmother and paternal grandfather, both Je'daii Masters. He likes to push the envelope and yearns for adventure. Heæs rowdy and bold and fun loving -- a friend to all. He also loves weaponry and females of all types. Sek'nos is charming but also driven; so many Je'daii have done great things. Sek'nos also wants to do great things.

Tasha Ryo is a female Twi'lek whose non-Je'daii father is Baron Volnos Ryo, a clan lord on the planet Shikaakwa, and her mother, Kora Ryo, is the master of Kaleth, the Je'daii Temple of Knowledge. Very calm and empathic, Tasha looks before she leaps and tries to understand the possible repercussions of what she does. Tasha prefers not to use weapons, employing "empty hand" techniques that uses the Force itself as weapon and shield. She's also often torn between duties to her mother and the Je'daii and to her father and their clan.

At the very center of this all, however, is Xesh -- a mysterious and powerful being called a Force Hound, whose arrival on Tython really sets the entire series in motion and powers the events that will drive the series. This will be his story, but telling too much about him now would reveal too much. I want the reader to encounter Xesh in the context of the story.

And there will be lots of other characters to encounter in the story, like Twi'lek Ranger Hawk Ryo, Ketu, Master of Akar Kesh, Rakatan Predor Skal'nas, Trill, and Je'daii Daegen Lok, just for starters.

A question for Jan: what sort of thought went into designing the new characters in this series? Were there particular traits you wanted to emphasize visually?

Jan Duursema: As with any new series, the first goal was to create characters who are visually striking -- characters who you immediately want to learn more about. With "Legacy" and "Republic" it was easy to take cues from existing material and create characters who fit into worlds that were already created. With "Dawn of the Jedi," we had this huge era for which very little had been established. Initially, it was kind of mind boggling, but as John and I began to come up with the story elements we wanted in "Dawn," we were able to figure out what kind of characters we wanted to see.

Designing the Je'daii characters was tricky. What makes a Jedi look like a Jedi? For me, it's their lightsabers and robes. In this era the Jedi are still using bladed weapons, so that leaves robes, which these early Jedi will still have. I didn't want to give them the same traditional clothes as later Jedi sometimes wear, but instead give them something along those lines which looks as though it might be a predecessor of that style. This costume would be for training or formal occasions. For everyday use, the Je'daii are more individualized, and their costumes based on functionality for the character.

Along these lines, in creating a visual look for the technology and planetary settings, what sort of factors did you have to take into consideration given the early era in which these stories take place? How does this compare to your process on "Legacy," which was set in the far future?

Duursema: With "Legacy," the process of design was forward looking. I could build on existing designs, utilize pieces of existing ships, buildings or weapons. That's one of the things I've always loved about "Star Wars" -- that feeling that objects also had a history. There was also plenty of established technology to play with.

With "Dawn of the Jedi," there was a retro-fitting process involved in designing the ships, temples, weapons and the rest. I tried to imagine design elements that the later tech could spring from. There are airships, dirigible-like vessels that are mostly transport ships or pleasure ships. Dirigibles just felt right for the era. The Je'daii have Pteron fighters, named because they reminded me of Pterosaurs. These are fast, winged vessels -- and armed. The Je'daii have cause to be peace-keepers from time to time.

Some of the tech, like the Tho Yor pyramid ships, are so ancient they look like stone. They are obviously some kind of ancient alien technology. The temple settings vary in style, some being more hi-tech than others and each utilizing the energies of Tython as a power source. The Je'daii are all about balance with their world, Tython, so I tried to incorporate that feeling into each temple building -- considering how the Je'daii would build their structures to enhance or capture the nature of the planet.

"Dawn of the Jedi" entailed more than creating technology. John and I had to consider what kinds of worlds we wanted to populate the Tython System with. These worlds vary from temperate and Earth-like to hot worlds with underground caverns and lakes, to cold out-lying worlds where life is only possible on a space station. Hope you will join us -- we have some really fun places to go!

Jan mentions that the Jedi origin ties in with pyramid ships called Tho Yor. Are these an existing part of "Star Wars" lore, or do they appear here for the first time? In either case, what can you tell us about them?

Ostrander: The Tho Yor are new to "Star Wars." These are the eight great ships that carried the Force sensitive beings to Tython in 36,453 BBY. There is also a ninth, larger Tho Yor on Tython which hovers over the Akar Kesh temple. The Je'daii are uncertain who built these ships, or what their purpose is beyond gathering their ancestors to be brought to Tython. Nine great temples, the centers of Je'daii culture and learning are now scattered around Tython, each attached to a Tho Yor.

"Dawn of the Jedi" brings the "Legacy" team back together. John and Jan, what makes your collaboration click?

Ostrander: Well, we've been doing this a while. Ten years! We both bring slightly different things to the mix. And we both love "Star Wars," and we love telling stories.

Duursema: Besides the fact that working with John is fun, I'm pretty sure we've developed a hive mind. Seriously, I just couldn't resist the temptation to get to tell how the Jedi order began. And working with John to think-tank "Dawn of the Jedi" into existence has been awesome!

"Star Wars: Dawn of the Jedi" #0 by John Ostrander and Jan Duursema arrives February 1, 2012.


A time when the Sith could be fun loving adventurers... where balance was the goal and anyone who went to far light or dark was banished to a moon....wow this is a VERY different universe.

As for the Lightsaber look alike I'm betting it's a Rakata device, perhaps a pure manifestation of the Dark side itself.

Anyways in other news:



Can't be what it looks like...cause they don't have the stones to do it...

Edit:

EDIT: The apparent presence of a Twi'lek in the first pic is also a potential problem, as they're native to a planet that was discovered about 10,000 years before the Clone Wars. Its only a potential problem, because they could say that some ancient high-tech race like the Gree or the Rataka moved some of them to other worlds.
Well this has been confirmed in the interview for all intent and purposes. Somone snatched up every force sensative from every race they could find and dumped them on Tython. The question is who and for what purpose?
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#56
Smart money is on the Rakata. Possibly so that they can watch what the Force sensitives do and then rip their shit off once they've finally got it down, though being Chaotic Evil as they are, "because why not" would not be an unreasonable way to go, either.

Still doesn't explain the lightsaber, though. Not unless this is just commissioned promotional art, and somebody forgot to remind the artist "oh, and by the way, yes this is Star Wars, but for the love of shit no lightsabers."

they don't have the stones
I wish they would. Fett bores me, and is by far the most overrated villain of all time. He did nothing, nothing, nothing, and nothing, in that order, in the original trilogy, and got his exit stage right as a gag scene death involving a blind Han Solo stumbling into him and knocking his ass into the Sarlacc. Fett then let out an incredibly undignified girly scream of AIEEEEEEE, and then the Sarlacc belched. Or possibly farted. It only has the one orifice. Fett was created to show that Vader was not fucking around and actually was sending people after Luke and the Rebels, and he died the most undignified death possible: being bumped into the mouth of a giant monster by a blind guy who is stumbling around behind his back, screaming like a little girl, and then getting farted on, full on, full body, right to the face.

Fett is the biggest failure of a badass and a bounty hunter that has ever lived in the annuls of fiction. All he ever did was stand around and look vaguely menacing and then die for the sake of fart joke, but for some reason, that was enough to score him legions of fans and force canon to make a reflex saving throw to bring him back to life and build an entire goddamn war around him and his blood.

You guys do know that the Mandalorians did not even exist until some random asshole went "wait, what species is Fett again? Human? Fuck no! If we went with that, the fanboys would skin us alive! Make him a space Spartan or something," right? That's how it went down. Mandalorians, the details of the Clone Wars, all of that shit was built off of Fett's absurdly overinflated and undeserved popularity as a character. If nobody had cared, the Mandalorians would have likely never existed, and the prequel trilogy would have probably had a radically different background metaplot associated with it.

I cannot even describe to you how much I wish they would just kill his ass off already. Freaking Chewie didn't survive the New Republic Era, but motherfucking Fett is still hanging on by the skin of his tiny, tiny dick.
 
#57
Lord Raine said:
I wish they would. Fett bores me, and is by far the most overrated villain of all time.
Kinda true but a little harsh, not like his over-exposure harmed anyone-

Lord Raine said:
and the prequel trilogy would have probably had a radically different background metaplot associated with it.
...


 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
#58
Lord Raine said:
Fett is the biggest failure of a badass and a bounty hunter that has ever lived in the annuls of fiction. All he ever did was stand around and look vaguely menacing and then die for the sake of fart joke, but for some reason, that was enough to score him legions of fans and force canon to make a reflex saving throw to bring him back to life and build an entire goddamn war around him and his blood.
But...but...according to Karen Travis, the Lore Mistress of Star Wars, Mandalorians are the greatest warriors ever and Bobba Fett is the best Jedi Killer that ever lived! Those unawesome moments you mention, those were Fett playing possum, lulling the galaxy into a false sense of security before reappearing on the galactic stage. In fact the reason there are so many sentient beings in Star Wars is because Fett allows them to live.

Oh I see, your mind must be dazzled by the Glory of Bobba Fett LR, it's understandable looking at Fett is like looking into the heart of a Star. I'm sure he fandalorians will forgive you for those words, as you obviously weren't in your right mind. Do not worry, we'll make sure you get all the help you need!

*turns to the side*

Bring forth the works of the Sacred Chronicler, Karen Travis. Her words shall help Lord Rain to see clearly!

[/sarcasm] (that was a long one)

and the prequel trilogy would have probably had a radically different background metaplot associated with it.
You know LR, that idea is almost worth writing. Imagine that we remove the Mandalorians from Star Wars. Bobba Fett was just a talented human bounty hunter and nothing more. So how do you see the prequels going?

Edit: Oh, and when I see those pics I think 'Spelljammer' over 'Warhammer'
 

nick012000

Well-Known Member
#59
Lord Raine said:
Here's another. Some random plot device throws Earth forwards in time by X amount, depositing it in a highly advanced science-fiction future dominated by alien confederations and empires. On the one hand, we're potentially thousands of years behind everyone else in the universe. On the other hand, we have all the super heroes and plot devices.

Can we go home? Should we go back even if we can find a way? Is humanity better off existing in this far-distant future, filled with technological wonders, moral ambiguity brought about by incredible science, and interstellar wars that shake the stars? Who will ally themselves with humanity, and why? What makes this galaxy of the future tick? How many technicolor space bitches must kick Scott in the balls before we're all satisfied (answer: all of them + 1)?
Isn't that a summary of Marvel Earth's political situation in the broader intergalactic community as it is? ;) :p
 
#60
Yeah, the Fett wank is incredibly annoying. Case in point, Traviss' novels have Fett idolized as some sort of legendary Jedi Killer after the Clone Wars.

Fett. Who never killed a single Jedi in his LIFE. He fought Jedi sure, but he always lost, or did not kill them.

Fuck. That. Shit.
 

goldenarms

Well-Known Member
#61
[Fett talk]

You know, I've always wondered why Boba Fett was such a big deal in the expanded universe. Sure, he looks kind of cool, but he kind of got eaten by a hole, and, to my mind, didn't do anything noteworthy in Return of the Jedi. He was just... there, and I didn't even know he had a name until many, many years after RotJ played in the movies.
 

Deathwings

Well-Known Member
#62
Talk about killing the Mandalorians
But...I like Canderous. Can we keep the KotOR era's Mandalorians at least ? :(
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#63
Deathwings said:
Talk about killing the Mandalorians
But...I like Canderous. Can we keep the KotOR era's Mandalorians at least ? :(
I definitely want to keep the Mandalorians, because without them we don't have a lot of the cooler things in the Expanded Universe, like Delta Squad and Canderous Ordo. Also, Revan and the Exile are not nearly as badass if there are no Mandalorians around.

My solution is simple: have them fucking die. They were a broken, dying people in the Exile's time. There's no reason in bloody hell for them to somehow magically hang on, surviving but not prospering or expanding at all, for a thousand motherfucking years. The Mandalorians get one last hurrah, are all badass and stuff, and then die so we don't have to put up with Jango and Boba's bullshit pseudo-superpowers a thousand years later. All the hard-liners out squatting in the backwater wildernesses of wild worlds die, and the rest of the Mandalorians disseminate into the general human populace, dispersing the Mandalorians as a distinctive human race into the oblivion that is the much larger human gene pool.

To justify Delta Squad, just have Sidius discover some old cache of stuff from the eras when they were still around. Maybe he discovers a sample of Canderous's blood, and uses it to make elite clone commandos to supplement the Grand Army of the Republic that his plan requires building. Then, when he pulls his gambit off, the Canderous clones get turned into the 501st and Sidius's personal Elite Guard.

Boba and Jango are mere footnotes in the lore, Canderous is a boss, we get to keep Delta Squad and Vader's Legion, and the entire Clone Wars metaplot is freed up to be occupied with something cooler and more logical than "some random ass Jedi Master from twenty years ago that we forgot about put in a massive goddamn order for a massive army of supersoldiers that we again somehow forgot about, OH WELL AT LEAST WE HAVE AN ARMY NOW."

Maybe the threat from the Trade Federation is a ploy by Sidius to get the Jedi to campaign to unite the rest of the galaxy against them. The Jedi do all of the work, and all Sidius has to do is shoot them in the back on the eve of victory, stick a crown on his head, and call it a day. Getting the Jedi to do your own work for you before betraying them sounds exactly like something a Sith Lord would do. We get to see two movies of the Jedi fulfilling their role as warrior-monk diplomats and uniting disparate factions together in between scenes of them kicking ass, and then the third movie has Sidius being all Imma totally let you finish, but I run the entire universe now. Stage a disaster coup, pin it on the Jedi, exterminate them, and then blame the entire thing on alien extremists, thereby paving the way for his human-dominated, human-centric Galactic Empire.

As an added bonus, this setup gives Anakin a much better, less pussy-ish reason for his defection and transformation into Vader.

"Yes, Anakin. The Jedi say they do not rule. And yet they sit in a palace built and paid for by the people, place themselves above the laws of others, can take control of any investigation or crime scene just by demanding it, claim diplomatic immunity in all places on all matters of import, are the only ones who police themselves, and sequester themselves away in silver towers to hold councils that other, lesser men are not privy to, free to promote or condemn whoever they so chose, without ever having to be held accountable for that power. And in times of war? They claim themselves the de-facto leaders and generals, and guide the armies that they have no true experience commanding or controlling. Why? Because they believe their powers give them that right. It is as simple as that.

"They are a ruling class in all but name. This war has nothing to do with Light and Dark, Anakin. It has always been about power, and who possesses it. The Jedi? The Sith? Back and forth, back and forth, always turmoil, always war. How many of your friends are dead because of this war, Anakin? People you knew? Perhaps even people you cared for? I seek nothing less than an end to that war, Anakin, and for that to happen, the Jedi must, regrettably, be destroyed. A power base must be created that is so powerful that they cannot hope to overthrow it. Their true natures must be laid bare to the public, and exaggerated with propaganda if necessary, to prevent any from helping them or attempting to restore their legacy. I do not seek to destroy the Jedi as people, or even as an Order. I am not so crass, or so unambitious. No, we will only have peace if the idea of the Jedi is killed. This plan of mine will do what no gun or blade can. It will slit the throat of the very concept of the Jedi, destroying them as they are, salting the earth so that none might return, and enforcing order and justice through power in case they do. If to do so makes me a Sith, then so be it! I will proudly bare the name.

"Do you not weep for your fallen comrades, your brothers and sisters, who were thrown into a war by terrible old men who did not explain or justify their actions with anything but cryptic words and riddles of darkness and light? Do you not wish to seek revenge, to claim retribution? Join me, Anakin! Join me, and stand by my side as I bring down this facade of gentle wisdom and guidance, and usher in an era of prosperity and social justice, the era of the first Galactic Empire! Was your mother, a slave, not a kind and honest woman? Did she ever do anything to deserve her lot? And what did the Jedi do to help her? Nothing. They did nothing to help her escape the injustice of her fate, or save the countless others who languished in similar ends. They even went so far as to steal her child away from her, just as they have done to innumerable other mothers and fathers across the galaxy! They are petty tyrants in crystal towers, lording their powers over others and claiming themselves to be the only true voice of wisdom in the universe. Ask yourself, what do the Jedi believe? Balance. Why? Because balance most easily creates conflict, is the most easily disturbed state of things. Who benefits from these eternal wars and disturbances caused by such Balance? The Jedi, who can use it forever as leverage for their power and influence, funding their citadels and palaces even as they excuse their actions and potency as being necessity, a requirement for hope to exist in a world constantly fraught with conflict. A conflict which they themselves encourage! The Jedi Order seeks to cause conflict by extolling balance, because only in conflict can they justify their existence.

"The Jedi and their tyranny of 'light' and 'balance' have stood in the way of true peace long enough. What we do is the right thing to do. It is the just thing to do. It is the only thing that can be done."
 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
#65
Nah, just no further news to report at this time.

Edit:

This is a snippet from an Interview with Daniel Erickson, a writer for 'The Old Republic' that's relevant to current discussion on the morality of Jedi.

GameSpy: One more thing that confused me, on Korriban with the guy who's doing the experiments on wild animals to prove they're expressions of the dark side. I was trying to take the dark side path, so I decided to go with the assistant and screw him over. And that ended up giving me light side points. I was very confused about that.

Daniel Erickson: Some of these, we literally diagram them as we're looking at them, trying to figure out the morality of it. So here's the thing. The dark side/light side path, it knows. It's the galaxy. Renning is insane. Nothing he's saying is true. His assistant is actually completely right. All he's doing is torturing things. He's a crazy sadist who's wasting millions and millions of the Empire's credits torturing things for fun. So shutting him down and discrediting him is actually the light side path. Right?

So, prequels: what do we notice watching Qui-Gon? It is not outside of the Jedi realms to lie, to cheat, to cheat at dice, to swindle people out of stuff. What, by the canon, the light side cares about is preservation of life. If there are people trapped in a burning building and they will not leave, and you threaten to beat the hell out of them if they don't go, to get them out of the burning building? Light side. Preservation of life. Always light side. Super dark side is you go get the brain and bring it back to him, and then you tell on her, and then he tortures her as well. That's how you get your double dark-side dip on that quest.


So, in theory, a Jedi would be well in his rights to pull an 'Ocean's Eleven' or put together a team like in he tv series 'Leverage' to swindle criminals out of their money, and bring justice to those outside/above the reach of the law?

Hmmmm.......
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#66
Finally, the age-old argument of whether or not Batman is a Sith or a Jedi is settled.
 

Steel

Well-Known Member
#67
Well, also, a lot of the writing is just flat out terrible.
 
#68
Ordo said:
Edit:

This is a snippet from an Interview with Daniel Erickson, a writer for 'The Old Republic' that's relevant to current discussion on the morality of Jedi.

GameSpy: One more thing that confused me, on Korriban with the guy who's doing the experiments on wild animals to prove they're expressions of the dark side. I was trying to take the dark side path, so I decided to go with the assistant and screw him over. And that ended up giving me light side points. I was very confused about that.

Daniel Erickson: Some of these, we literally diagram them as we're looking at them, trying to figure out the morality of it. So here's the thing. The dark side/light side path, it knows. It's the galaxy. Renning is insane. Nothing he's saying is true. His assistant is actually completely right. All he's doing is torturing things. He's a crazy sadist who's wasting millions and millions of the Empire's credits torturing things for fun. So shutting him down and discrediting him is actually the light side path. Right?

So, prequels: what do we notice watching Qui-Gon? It is not outside of the Jedi realms to lie, to cheat, to cheat at dice, to swindle people out of stuff. What, by the canon, the light side cares about is preservation of life. If there are people trapped in a burning building and they will not leave, and you threaten to beat the hell out of them if they don't go, to get them out of the burning building? Light side. Preservation of life. Always light side. Super dark side is you go get the brain and bring it back to him, and then you tell on her, and then he tortures her as well. That's how you get your double dark-side dip on that quest.
...that all sounds like utter bull to me.

Also, him using the prequels as his justification doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#69
It makes perfect sense to me. The only real definition of the Light Side that we've ever gotten is "don't do Dark Side things" and "don't give in to negative emotions, particularly anger and hatred."

There is, strictly speaking, absolutely no reason at all that you could not be a colossal asshole and also be a Jedi. You would have to be a tranquil asshole, yes, but the asshole part can very much be there. Just look at the Revan Era Jedi Order. Every single member of the Jedi Council was a liar, a cheat, a traitor, or just flat-out dickish person, but the only one on it who actually fell to the Dark Side was Atris, and as much of a raging cunt-pustule as she was, it bares mentioning that she only fell after prolonged exposure to Sith Holocrons whispering into her subconscious while she, arrogantly and foolishly, tried to meditate upon them.

I've actually got to give this one to them. They're dead to rights. If anything, I'm not even sure preserving the sanctity of life is a qualifier. Jedi can cheerfully murder the shit out of people with both the Force and their lightsabers, and it never has any adverse effects on their powers. The only time killing people and taking life is ever a bad thing is if you, say it with me now, do it with anger in your heart. Yoda can tranquilly murder you all day long. That's just how the Jedi roll.

From an abstract, cosmological point of view, Sith versus Jedi is less Good versus Evil, and more Everything Else versus Evil. There's nothing in the playbook that says Jedi have to be Good?. They just have to be Not-Evil. Qui-Gon is one example of this, yes, but there are plenty of others. Both Revan and the Exile blatantly used the Force to cheat during the few times that they stepped into the cockpit of a racing machine, even in professional circuits when thousands of credits and a lot of prestige was on the line. Obi Wan used the Mind Trick to mindfuck a Stormtrooper into letting them pass into Mos Eisley, even though there were probably other ways inside. Countless other Jedi agents in the Expanded Universes and timelines have used Mind Tricks and Force Persuasion to do all sorts of not-totally-morally-sound things, even if they were doing it for good causes. And have fun trying to count the number of dead bodies that the Jedi are responsible for. Sanctity of life? I actually find that somewhat suspect.

Jedi are not Paladins. Don't make the mistake of assuming they are. Pretty much the entirety of the Light Side is defined less by any central virtue of it's own, and more by virtue of not being Dark. Jedi can be assholes. Jedi can be massive raging cunts. Jedi can lie. And cheat. And, for that matter, steal. The entire Clone Era Republic Jedi Order was founded upon what is essentially kidnapping.
 
#70
Nah. I still don't buy it.

The thing is about KotOR, is that there very clearly are writers on board criticising the simple Good/Evil conflict that makes up Star Wars. Especially in the sequel with Kreia.

And also, having it allow you to kill or whatever as long as you don't feel a negative emotion seems to allow for the mentally ill or emotionless sociopaths to become Jedi. There's a huge difference between "purged of all emotion" and "being in control of your emotions".

The Jedi are trained to follow codes of morality and justice, are even taught mediation and negotiation in order to settle things peacefully, and are essentially warrior monks- or at least are based on them- so I don't buy at all that you could be a Jedi if you were actively being a murderous dickbag, just not one who's angry.

Yes, there are lots of examples of them in the Expanded Universe. However, the problem is is that the Expanded Universe is written by a great number of people, all of which have various different ideas about what the Jedi are and what they do. Even what we're arguing about is our own interpretations of the Jedi.

I'll agree with you on something, though. The preservation of life thing sure doesn't seem like what the Light Side of the Force is all about, considering the Jedi are also trained to use lethal force ( :snigger: ) if necessary.
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#71
Lord Raine said:
Smart money is on the Rakata. Possibly so that they can watch what the Force sensitives do and then rip their shit off once they've finally got it down, though being Chaotic Evil as they are, "because why not" would not be an unreasonable way to go, either.
I could see that. Mind you, I could also see these Tho Yor being built by someone new, or by one of the other established ancient races. Glad they've got a good excuse for the various races being there.

I'm hoping that lightsabre is just a mistake by the artist, or at least not what it looks like (a manifestation of Xesh-or-whomever's power in the Force would be quite acceptable), but I won't be surprised if its a lightsabre, and the excuse for its presence (and the lack of later lightsabres for ten-to-twenty thousand years) a bad one.
 

GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#72
I find that the Sith are much more honest about themselves than the Jedi. The Jedi pile excuse upon excuse on each other to justify their actions, while a Sith will candidly admit he did whatever he did because he could and wanted to.

More importantly, most Sith don't seem to lie. They just give you a particularly unpleasant side of the truth (the same side the Jedi do their damnedest to hide, by the way) to incentivate you to join them.

That said, I firmly believe that a Sith doesn't have to necessarily be evil - being a Sith mostly means being true to your nature and passions, from what I saw, rather than quashing them. It's just that most people who go Sith are also either raging assholes or have anger management issues which lead them to abuse the Force in their pursuit of self-gratification.

The thing is, what if they find self-gratification in MAKING OTHERS HAPPY? They aren't doing evil things per se, but they are still going about it in a very Sith way - they do good deeds purely because it makes them feel good, so that'd count as a Sith mindset...

I may be missing something there, but it's all very fucked up from what I see.
 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
#73
LightningHunter said:
Yes, there are lots of examples of them in the Expanded Universe. However, the problem is is that the Expanded Universe is written by a great number of people, all of which have various different ideas about what the Jedi are and what they do. Even what we're arguing about is our own interpretations of the Jedi.
So we agree that the truth each of us cling to, including you, when it comes to Jedi depends greatly on our own point of view? So Bioware's , LR, LH, & GH's interpretations are all valid since they are based on what we've seen?

That said, I firmly believe that a Sith doesn't have to necessarily be evil - being a Sith mostly means being true to your nature and passions, from what I saw, rather than quashing them. It's just that most people who go Sith are also either raging assholes or have anger management issues which lead them to abuse the Force in their pursuit of self-gratification.

The thing is, what if they find self-gratification in MAKING OTHERS HAPPY? They aren't doing evil things per se, but they are still going about it in a very Sith way - they do good deeds purely because it makes them feel good, so that'd count as a Sith mindset...
That would essentially describe my Sith characters. I like helpig people, I love it when an Imperial Officer praises me as the ideal Sith Lord. I like feeling that I am honor bound to aid the Imperial military and protect the citizens of the Empire. I'm currently helping Vette with her past because my character considers her a friend, and the force help the Jedi that takes a swing at her, or the trooper that takes a shot at her.

Also...no force in the verse will stop me from killing the smuggler that makes a pass at her...
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#74
The thing is about KotOR, is that there very clearly are writers on board
Canon is canon. End of story. Even if you personally believe that the writers were somehow faulty (which is bullshit) and that that somehow invalidates what they put in (which is even more bullshit), you're still ignoring the fact that:

A.) Canon is canon, end of story, you don't get to argue.

B.) Revan and the Exile are not the only examples that I gave. Motherfucking Obi Wan in the very first movie was using the Force to mindrape people for sheer convenience. Even if you use nothing but the movies, you still have Obi Wan and Qui Gon fucking your shit up.

You don't want to buy it, even though they've been selling it since the first goddamn movie, that's fine. Nobody can make you be right. Just don't complain when people tell you that you're wrong.
 

Halcyon7

Well-Known Member
#75
GenocideHeart said:
Now I'm imagining Emiya Shirou and Archer as Sith. Thank you.

(LightSEEEEEEEEEIBAAAAAAAAHHHH)
 
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