Fairy Tail Discussion Thread

[Takerial]

It's just speculation that his mind was reset. There is no evidence that his mind is completely gone and there is some that actually promotes the opposite in that it is just amnesia.

And it is more than just memories that makes a person who they are. And arguing if it is just to punish someone who forgot what they did is a philosophy debate that would take awhile to go into.

But if you want to, sure. WHY is it not just to punish someone who, while they do no remember they did the crime, had been aware during the crime and still contains a large possibility of committing similar crimes before as there is a chance he will regain his memories or experience similar circumstances that lead up to his last crimes.

 

[Lord Raine]

It's just speculation that his mind was reset.

It's just speculation that it wasn't.

There is no evidence that his mind is completely gone and there is some that actually promotes the opposite in that it is just amnesia.

There's no evidence that his memory is entirely retrievable and there is some that actually promotes the opposite in that it's just a bunch of random fragments.

And it is more than just memories that makes a person who they are.

No, it isn't. Memories are the only thing that you are, besides DNA. If I reset your memories, you'd have to start over again on square one (or on whatever square you happen to be on when I stopped mindwiping you).

And arguing if it is just to punish someone who forgot what they did is a philosophy debate that would take awhile to go into.

It's not that they "forgot." If you've forgotten, you can be reminded. Gerard has no memory of any of those events whatsoever. If they were just forgotten, then bringing them up would have at least partially jogged his memory.

WHY is it not just to punish someone who, while they do no remember they did the crime, had been aware during the crime

You're weighing the question in your favor. Gerard hasn't forgotten just the bad things that he did, or just that one memory of that one thing. His memory is totally gone, save a few random bits floating around, like remembering that Natsu was a strong person.

You ask how it's not just to punish someone who's forgotten. I ask how it's just to punish someone who is, in effect, a completely different person. The person who committed those crimes is, for all intents, dead.

still contains a large possibility of committing similar crimes before

Prove it. Prove that there is a "large possibility" of him committing "similar crimes."

You can't. So don't throw it in there like it's a given. It isn't. The only way to provide evidence for that would be if you experimented by leaving Gerard to make decisions and choices for himself, and he, by his own violation, began drifting towards those same choices he made before.

And unfortunately for you, Gerard has been put into circumstances where he can decide for himself what to do with his power and who to side with, and he performed admirably. He had multiple opportunities to backslide or give into temptation and misuse his power in the last arc, but every single time, he chose the best and Right? course of action. His behavior thus far has been totally faultless. By all accounts, he is a perfect throwback to his childhood self.

Are you going to try Gerard of fifteen years ago for the crimes of a Gerard that no longer exists?

 

[Takerial]

First off, Amnesia is not something that people get back ALL AT ONCE like in the movies. It takes awhile to overcome in real life and often even when given cues they only feel a sense of familarity at best for awhile. This is evidenced by the fact that Gerard was familar with Natsu and felt he should trust him, as well as the remembering how Ezra got her last name. These are very strong indicators of him slowly regaining his memory and not just sudden misfires as he did not remember anything except Ezra's name at first.

For what you were to be saying to be true, then he should not have regained his sense of familarity with Natsu or remembering Ezra's last name. He should have either remembered them as well from the start, or never gotten them back. But he did and that's why it points strongly to Amnesia which is more about someone being unable to access memories than actually forgetting everything. Not to mention that he only lose his memories, he didn't lose his working memory like how to talk or use magic, which is another sign of Amnesia and not parts of his memory being destroyed.

As for what you are saying about justice, you are only thinking about one side of it.

First off there are victims of Gerard. Should they be denied closure just because he doesn't remember?

On top of that, you say he shouldn't be punished because he's "essentially a different man." If you are going to take that route then what about a criminal who is truly sorry for what he did and actually does change to not do his crime again, let's say stabbing someone. Does that mean he shouldn't have to serve his time just because he's different now?

Or even going with forgotten memories. Someone murders someone and before they can charge him with the crime he happens on Amnesia. Should they put off punishing him until he remembers? What if in this case he never regains them? Does that mean he still should get away with murder?

Justice is more than just "This doesn't feel right." In fact that is the very reason Justice is suppose to be blind.

And he can very well return to the way he was. He may not have any memories but his mannerisms would still remain. His working memory and other things would remain. This means that if he is exposed to similar cirumstances he could very well repeat what he did again, because he would most likely act like he did in those cirumstances. Remember, it was that little kid who easily turned from what he was and became the man who went about committing the crime. And it wasn't even that difficult to do so.

 

[blackkyuubi]

t: Sorry to break up the flow but I have to ask, has anyone else wondered about the fact that Lucy's mom seems to have died about the same time that the dragons disapeard? This is the first time that I know of that it's been brought up on this site but if it has been else were link me the link please.

 

[Marquis Le'Quack]

* And if it does, I'm going to be PISSED. That totally should have been brought up in school vocation day. If Witch/Wizard is available as a profession, then you need to fucking tell people, so they don't waste their life doing things that don't involve dragons, magic swords, forever wars between angels and demons, and forging pacts with anthropomorphic personifications of nature.

We generally don't mind the average fellow joining our orders, but there has to be something distinguishing about him or her. Witch/Wizard also happens to be a increasingly less useful profession; extra-planar beings don't really like the atmosphere on earth, and the amount of iron and cold iron on the earth's surface have shut down the waypoints linking magical worlds to our own.

In other words, the technology you gleefully use has screwed you over.

 

[Lord Raine]

* And if it does, I'm going to be PISSED. That totally should have been brought up in school vocation day. If Witch/Wizard is available as a profession, then you need to fucking tell people, so they don't waste their life doing things that don't involve dragons, magic swords, forever wars between angels and demons, and forging pacts with anthropomorphic personifications of nature.

We generally don't mind the average fellow joining our orders, but there has to be something distinguishing about him or her. Witch/Wizard also happens to be a increasingly less useful profession; extra-planar beings don't really like the atmosphere on earth, and the amount of iron and cold iron on the earth's surface have shut down the waypoints linking magical worlds to our own.

In other words, the technology you gleefully use has screwed you over.[/quote]
Cold iron is practically nonexistent in the modern world. Being attacked by fey is actually one of the theoretical scenarios that I'm pretty sure I would not survive, because no matter how many times I've run it, I can't come up with some cold iron to use. I don't even know where you would go to get cold iron, even if it was a shopping list thing and not a fighting retreat for your life thing.

I'm assuming you know what it is, but just for the record, cold iron is iron that has never been heated or smelted by man. Or in other words, it's basically true, raw, virgin iron ore. It can be used to make weapons and tools, but if it is, you can't heat it up in the process, or else it's no longer cold iron. So if you want to make a cold iron sword or dagger, you've got to beat it into shape with an exceedingly tough hammer, no heating involved.

I have no idea where I could get cold iron to potentially defend myself. There is none in my house, none in the garage or shed, and I don't even know where you could go to get some. All the iron I know about, have access to, or can even think of, has been heated, refined, or shaped at some point in it's manufacturing process.


If anything, the modern age would be exceedingly hospitable to fey and nature spirits, because the industrial revolution and advent of technology pretty much killed off all common and uncommon instances of the substances that they are bane to (at least according to you). I can't even think of why there would be any cold iron at all anywhere, as it doesn't really serve a practical purpose as a material. The only place I can think of that you'd find any is either in a mine, or on a loading dock for a smelting plant.


[EDIT]

Also, if the amount of iron had something to do with it, those waypoints could have never existed to begin with. The amount of iron on the planet has not changed.

Sorry to break up the flow but I have to ask, has anyone else wondered about the fact that Lucy's mom seems to have died about the same time that the dragons disapeard?

It's probably coincidence. But I'm not willing to say that it is coincidence.

 

[blackkyuubi]

Sorry to break up the flow but I have to ask, has anyone else wondered about the fact that Lucy's mom seems to have died about the same time that the dragons disapeard?

It's probably coincidence. But I'm not willing to say that it is coincidence.

Yes but I could almost swear that its down to the day. Could be wrong though I'll have to go look at her grave stone again.

 

[Lord Raine]

Sorry to break up the flow but I have to ask, has anyone else wondered about the fact that Lucy's mom seems to have died about the same time that the dragons disapeard?

It's probably coincidence. But I'm not willing to say that it is coincidence.

Yes but I could almost swear that its down to the day. Could be wrong though I'll have to go look at her grave stone again.

If you do check, tell us what it is. In the same general timeframe is a coincidence. The exact same day isn't.

Of course, that being said, I don't ever remember an exact date being given for when Igneel and the other dragons went missing. Just that they all disappeared at more or less the exact same time.

 

[Tom_Badgerlock]

On top of that, you say he shouldn't be punished because he's "essentially a different man." If you are going to take that route then what about a criminal who is truly sorry for what he did and actually does change to not do his crime again, let's say stabbing someone. Does that mean he shouldn't have to serve his time just because he's different now?

I can't believe i am agreeing with lord Raine, but if it's truly a mindwipe as said, he is not 'Essentially a different man', he simply is one.

It would be like me killing the random red-hair person on the street because someone with red-hair once killed my father- Without your memory, or way to get it back, you aren't who you were.

If it was just the memory to him being a bastard i could understand, but that's not it. He is like a newborn in many aspect. DNA doesn't make someone.

 

[Takerial]

Actually, certain characteristics of yourself are shown to be more than just memory as in a twin study done. While some things were concusive to environment, there were certain other things that the twins shared that showed there is more to it than just memory.

While things like Attitudes and Beliefs tend to be primarily nurture related, there is still an innate sense of nature when dealing with someone. Someone who by nature is easily manipulated will remain so even if all his memories are erased.

Sorting out what is nature and nurture is somewhat different.

And events can be reenacted or similar events could occur that would have a similar reaction. This is why that even if his memories are erased, he can still become what he once was because there ARE things he is by nature and he will experience things and react the same way. Granted you could avoid this by enacting certain nurturing behaviors that counteract these, but they are not 100%, and considering the guy almost caused mass destruction, I think anything shy of a 100% is something that shouldn't really be considered.

And you're basing this on entirely on him being wiped clean. Which is mostly just conjucture and lacks basis.

If you don't think there are things in us by nature, then why don't all babies act completely the same when they're first born?

let's use your example of you killing a red hair person. There is more to it than them just having killed your father. You have to have several characteristics that make you capable of just randomly killing a redheaded person. So even if you lose your memories you will still have certain characteristics that make you capable of killing someone. And say if similar circumstances happen. Like say your new adoptive father is murdered by another redheaded person. Well chances are you are probably going to randomly kill another redheaded person.

People, there is a reason that therapy takes years upon YEARS and for many people shows little progress. Because it is that damn difficult to change certain things about ourselves. And even then, we mostly just learn to control it rather than change it.

 

[Tom_Badgerlock]

the things about yourself that are so hard to change are mostly things that were born out of the environment. Very few people try and go against their base temperament.

And the rest of the arguments is pretty weird. Yes, things could happen in the same way again. Does that mean they will? are you going to condemn someone because he is weak and can be manipulated? This is a very weird argument.

Are you trying to say there are genes about being 'evil', and that those genes are unavoidable things that can't be countered? and if so, how do you explain the guy helping out the group first chance he could?

We do not put someone in prison or kill them on 'what could happen if a thousand other factors were in place'.

 

[Takerial]

No we do not put them in prison for what could.

But in this case, he DID do something bad. That alone constitues the need for justice. I mean I know you could have forgotten that, but it's kind of silly to forget HE DID DO SOMETHING! Whether he remembers it or will remember it is something entirely different.

And this also means that there is an increased chance he could revert and perform similar actions.

It's like with a dog. It could bite and some are more likely to bite than others. But you know that if a dog bites you, that hey. There is a pretty good chance IT WILL BITE YOU AGAIN! Justice has multiple faucets. The most common is to give victims closure to a situation and to provide protection against repeated offenses. Granted, going too far into Justice makes everything philosphy based which if you want to go into that you are more than welcome to, I'm just going to avoid it because there is too much circular logic going into it.

And the things that are hard to change about you? You may think they are environment only but that's not really the case. Therapy is never aimed at just solving surface related issues because that NEVER WORKS! If you received Therapy that did only that you got ripped off.

Deeper, more ingrained issues play on both environment and nature related causes, often with the nature related twisting the environment in some way.

It can be in someone's nature to be easily manipulated. That means when faced with someone ordering them to do something, they do it instead of saying no. Trying to work someone through their nature is very difficult and time consuming and hardly always sucessful.

 

[Lord Raine]

That takes the stance of only empathizing with the accusers. What of the accused? How would you feel if a bunch of random people came up to you out of the blue, told you you were actually an evil madman wizard who tried to take over the world, and then tried to kill you/drag you off to some magical prison somewhere?

You'd probably object. Vehemently.


Again, and for the last time, your job is, in essence, to prove something that would normally be taken for granted. Namely, that this Gerard is the Gerard that committed those crimes. As it stands now, all evidence points to it not being the same Gerard. That Gerard is gone. Maybe forever. But even if it's only temporary, the Gerard there now is innocent.

 

[Tom_Badgerlock]

Yeah, it stays that it isn't Gerard.

It isn't about him reverting or whatnot. He could revert, sure. But odds are he won't, and if he does revert, there is no better place to be than Fairy Tail.

Justice isn't about Punishing someone for what someone else did. This Gerard is pretty much a clone- he doesn't have what made the other gerard what he was for the most part. Saying he should be involved in that is silly.

Someone easily manipulated is pretty much defining 90% of people one way or another (it depends how you ask), and it doesn't mean those people are at faults. It means they should work on themselves, yes, but the ones at faults are the ones who manipulates.

Gerard might have been one who manipulates, but he isn't right now- for all intent and purpose, he is not 'Gerard'.

PS: Determinism is just a way for someone to excuse for not thinking.

 

[Takerial]

Again, that's like saying someone who kills someone, then says he is truly sorry and won't even do it again is for all intents and purposes not the same person who killed that guy and probably won't do something like that again.

I mean I'm only thinking of t he accusers right. So I should think of the accused. Well the accused is truly sorry and pretty much not going to do it again. So why not take that chance?

Gee, seems a little unfair.

How about an extreme example then. What if Hitler had been bonked on the head near the end and loss all of his memory of what happened. Doctors said that he probably would never recover his memories again. Now instead this Hitler likes to spend his time painting beautiful paintings. What now?

You guys treat this like it's a magically etch e sketch. Where having your memories gone is just like shaking it and now everything is blank.

YOU DO NOT GO BLANK WITH YOUR MEMORIES GONE! Or have you not understood that at all? You retain a good chunk of what makes you, you even though your experiences are gone. While normally just have a predisposition towards something is not cause for doing something, the fact that HE HAS before changes things.

 

[Lord Raine]

A memory wipe is not even remotely comparable to an apology. Seriously.

You're also ignoring what I consider to be my best point, which is that Gerard has shown no signs of retrogression whatsoever. If he was still fundamentally the same person that committed those crimes like what you are claiming, he would have made similar decisions to what he did before. Instead, he chose to side with the side he viewed as being in the right, even though every last one of them thought he was a complete monster, and tried to kill him on sight (except Erza. She just freaked out).

He did the right thing even while under intense pressure from both the Good Guys? and the Bad Guys? to revert back to his former ways. That is beyond impressive, and shows real moral fiber.

 

[Takerial]

An apology is something different than being sorry.

And you seem to have just completely ignore the part about Hilter, how nice.

I would be more inclined to see your point Raine, if it wasn't for the fact that he pretty much is doing his actions out of guilt. Sure they have a somewhat good result, but he basically does everything out of guilt.

And he's been awakened for what, a day at most and he's already showing signs of recovering a few odd and ends memories. Just because he hasn't shown a full retrogression does not mean he won't. I mean the fact that he's recovered those memories, no matter how small, so fast is a pretty good sign that he'll recover fast as well.

 

[Tom_Badgerlock]

And you seem to have just completely ignore the part about Hilter, how nice.

I would be more inclined to see your point Raine, if it wasn't for the fact that he pretty much is doing his actions out of guilt. Sure they have a somewhat good result, but he basically does everything out of guilt.

Because as per Internet, using Hitler in a argument means you basically concede. She/it/He was making you a favor.


Out of guilt? what? he wasn't. He was doing things he thought he should do. and if he can feel guilt for things he doesn't remember, it's a good thing.

As for him remembering things? remembering he can trust natsu isn't going in your favor.

Justice isn't about Viewers opinion, it's about an objective truth. the Gerard who did those crimes currently doesn't exist.

If he comes back, having him in Fairy Tale is perhaps the best place he could be.

 

[ZeroForever]

the Hitler argument fail thing has been around a while, forgot the name of it.


i'm going to throw in with the 'I hope gerard gets executed' group, but he won't simply because they haven't even touched the whole mist gun being gerard also crap (not even going to bother with theories on that).


RL not remembering a crime as noted won't absolve you of it, they may send you to a mental health clinic instead of jail but just because you have head trauma after committing murder/terrorism they law wouldn't make you a free man. I wouldn't be surprised if there is magic to restore his memory, so that they can torture the details of his plan out of him. Honestly at this point though there is nothing to absolve him of his previous crime other then the word of a handful of people, considering that the details of his plan had them use magical nukes to solve indicates just how dangerous they consider it.

 

[Lord Raine]

I never said the people who came to arrest him did the wrong thing. They did right, by all accounts. Them actually taking the word of anyone who was present on Gerard's behalf would have been gross negligence of duty of the highest order.* My point is about whether or not Gerard should be punished or incarcerated, given the circumstances.


* Though just to play devil's advocate, I'd like to point out that at least one of them was one of the High Holy Mages, so I was somewhat surprised his word didn't count for more than it did. I expected them to at least pause a bit when he spoke out on behalf of Gerard, but they ignored him just like everyone else.

 

[Takerial]

And you seem to have just completely ignore the part about Hilter, how nice.

I would be more inclined to see your point Raine, if it wasn't for the fact that he pretty much is doing his actions out of guilt. Sure they have a somewhat good result, but he basically does everything out of guilt.

Because as per Internet, using Hitler in a argument means you basically concede. She/it/He was making you a favor.


Out of guilt? what? he wasn't. He was doing things he thought he should do. and if he can feel guilt for things he doesn't remember, it's a good thing.

As for him remembering things? remembering he can trust natsu isn't going in your favor.

Justice isn't about Viewers opinion, it's about an objective truth. the Gerard who did those crimes currently doesn't exist.

If he comes back, having him in Fairy Tale is perhaps the best place he could be.

Comparing something as being LIKE the Nazi's is the whole meme thing. Quite a bit different than what I was suggesting. I even stated it was an extreme example.

Ok, if Justice is so objective then let's go with that.

He did a crime, whether he remembers it or not is a moot point. He did a crime, he pays for it.

The whole "He doesn't remember thing" is very subjective because you're emotionall attaching a different person to him. What if he's just faking things? You don't know he isn't. If he is, well you just fell victim to him because you allowed yourself to sympathize with him. Congratualtions, you're like the juries that allow crap like Temporary Insanity to play in court just because they feel "He couldn't be the killer so this must be why."

Beyond that, if you want something to be completely objective, then you need to play on things that are only the truth.

Will he remember, does he not remember. Is he a completely different person? Is he just faking it? There are too many variables for an objective answer from those.

So what type of decisions could you make? Well basically you look at what can't be changed. He did do the crime. Whether he remembers or not or will remember or not is a different story. But the fact is, he did the crime.

There were victims because of this crime. People died. Maybe not as a direct result of him causing murder necessarily, but they still died.

 

[the DragonBard]

Again, everyone ignores the fact that he was apparently under some form of mind control for most of his life, and only got freed after after the magic blast. That's why he saved Ezra back then. If nothing else, that should mitigate things.

I don't say that they should take his word for it, but should find out if it's true or not, and take it into account when sentencing him. Either declaring him not guilty, or reducing the punishment, depending on the severity of the mind control/possession.

 

[Tom_Badgerlock]

Mmmmh, forgot about the mind control true.

@Takerial: My problem with your point of view is that:

1?) it's not partial amnesia of a few things, he doesn't remember pretty muh everything about his life. He ISN'T Gerard right now, or at least that's what he pretends.

2?) In life, it's innocent until proven guilty. You don't go around incacerating or killing someone because of 'might'.

 

[Lord Raine]

I was about to say let's not turn this into a PoV War, but I'm afraid it's already there. D :

 

[ZeroForever]

Again, everyone ignores the fact that he was apparently under some form of mind control for most of his life, and only got freed after after the magic blast. That's why he saved Ezra back then. If nothing else, that should mitigate things.

I don't say that they should take his word for it, but should find out if it's true or not, and take it into account when sentencing him. Either declaring him not guilty, or reducing the punishment, depending on the severity of the mind control/possession.

pretty sure they noted it wasn't actually mind control as the dark mage that was supposedly controlling him from beyond the grave isn't actually dead just sealed or something, he was just manipulated by Ur so it was still his end choice to do what he did even it if was at someone else's prodding (because her intention was simply have him distract the mage council... she didn't care how he did it).


Side thought is anyone else disturbed at how easy it is to revive someone in this series... i mean all you need is to have wendy blow you.