Nasuverse Fate/Stay Updates

[Amodelsino]

You're mixing real life canon and Nasuverse canon. Be careful.

Nasuverse humans were apparently all reality warpers and demigods during Gil's time, and the current modern "superiority" is one built on ignorance; basically, the rise of our sci-tech was just not enough to counteract the loss of our magitech, with the latter being depleted faster than the former can be improved.

That's, that's fair... but since it's Nasu himself that insisted on basing his "secret history" on "real history", I don't feel it's unrealistic to point out what I think are instances where Nasu's personal ignorance makes things less awesome than they otherwise could have been, where even within his own rules he's probably wrong.

For example... perhaps Giglamesh was the "king of heros," but in addition to being a real person as far as archeologists can tell, <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sargon_of_Akkad' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Sargon of Akkad</a>, "the true king" (that was seriously his nickname), was the first emperor in recorded history. Not the first emperor of that particular era, or the first emperor of the Fertile Crescent, but the first to ever raise up an army and conquer another city and make it also subordinate to him. The first emperor.

Gilgamesh was a demigod ruling over an Empire that stretched across the entire planet and had creations beyond anything we can manage (like his super magical fighter jet). I'm going to go with the Nasuverse in which is more awesome.

The Gilgamesh in the Epic is effectively a fictional character (even though Gilgamesh the King of Uruk existed) who is much more awesome than Sargon. So why would Nasu care about Sargon when he can just make Gilgamesh the fictional a real person in his fictional story?

Your argument falls once you consider that just because Nasu didn't use real life history rather than his much more awesome fake one doesn't mean he's ignorant of it.

 

[nick012000]

...so Ea of Babylon was forged of a fantastic metal, incomprehensible to man, that was sharper and tougher than anything known, carved directly from a fallen meteor.

Of course, looked at another way, it's just meteoric iron-nickle, that's like 40% of all asteroids, it's nothing special or interesting; it's practically garbage compared to the high-carbon steels coked with manganese and tungsten and whatever.

Is it just made of meteoric iron-nickle, or was the meteorite made of something a bit more unique? It could well be made out of some material beyond Man's current ability to understand or produce; Shirou's complete inability to Trace it certainly points in that direction.

I'm not sure it was made of a meteor at all. It was made by the goddess that divided the Earth from the Sky, after all; that's why it tears holes in the air.

Besides, Kanshou and Bakuya were definitely made out of a fallen meteor, and Shirou can trace them.

 

[Deathwings]

*eyes Gabriel Blessing and his horde of <s>Fate-haters</s> fanboys

Not everyone can be an hardcore Nasu fanboy and canon nazi.
Some peoples just read fanfictions for fun. Shocking, I know. :lol:

This is good natured jest, don't take it personally.

 

[WizardOne]

*eyes Gabriel Blessing and his horde of <s>Fate-haters</s> fanboys

Not everyone can be an hardcore Nasu fanboy and canon nazi.
Some peoples just read fanfictions for fun. Shocking, I know. :lol:

This is good natured jest, don't take it personally.

I Have no idea what you're talking about, Gabriel Blessing has never written an OOC character in his entire life and I spit upon the misguided men who claim this is not so.


*Ptoui*


Also: Oh my god I actually agree with an argument from Amodelsino, I have no idea what happened. I think I need therapy.

 

[Cherry_lover]

You know, in addition to being a stuck-up maverick with delusions of grandeur and a superiority complex. On this, Gabriel Blessing and I share similar views; Nasuverse mages are generally dicks.

Is there anyone in the fandom who doesn't think that?

There are good magi, of course (Rin and Sakura being the most obvious, because Shirou is a "magic user" rather than a "magus"), but in general they are indeed dicks, and even the nice ones are often trained not to be nice (Rin being the best example of this).

 

[nick012000]

You know, in addition to being a stuck-up maverick with delusions of grandeur and a superiority complex. On this, Gabriel Blessing and I share similar views; Nasuverse mages are generally dicks.

Is there anyone in the fandom who doesn't think that?

There are good magi, of course (Rin and Sakura being the most obvious, because Shirou is a "magic user" rather than a "magus"), but in general they are indeed dicks, and even the nice ones are often trained not to be nice (Rin being the best example of this).

Aozaki Touko seems alright from the KnK movies I've seen. She's no saint, sure, but she's hardly on the level of Matou Zouken or Araya Souren.

 

[rdde]

...so Ea of Babylon was forged of a fantastic metal, incomprehensible to man, that was sharper and tougher than anything known, carved directly from a fallen meteor.

Of course, looked at another way, it's just meteoric iron-nickle, that's like 40% of all asteroids, it's nothing special or interesting; it's practically garbage compared to the high-carbon steels coked with manganese and tungsten and whatever.

Is it just made of meteoric iron-nickle, or was the meteorite made of something a bit more unique? It could well be made out of some material beyond Man's current ability to understand or produce; Shirou's complete inability to Trace it certainly points in that direction.

Well meteors do tend to have a higher-than-average concentration of iridium, to the point that the high concentration of iridium at the K-T boundary was used as supporting evidence for the meteor hypothesis of dinosaur extinction before the crater was found in Mexico.

So no, it isn't beyond man's ability to understand or reproduce.

On the other hand, it means that modern science could make a sword out of the meteor that killed the dinosaurs, so there's that.

EDIT: Also, ever since technecium was first synthesized in 1937, humans have been able to create elements that haven't been around our solar system since... oh, since before the Earth formed. So we can make stuff that, to put it in Nasuverse terms, is beyond the common sense of the world.

We live in heady times....

While we may create elements that have never existed in the history of our solar system or elements that may not naturally exist for more than a second before they decay into more simpler elements, it costs us tremendously to produce just a few picograms of each sample. For example, to produce a gram of anti-hydrogen, there was an old estimate that it will cost $62.5 trillion USD. Unless we find a much cheaper way to synthesise new elements in industrial quantity, the ability to create new elements may as well be a fairy tale.

Shirou ability to trace is complete hax though. Maybe even a bigger hax than Reality Marbles. Altering the immediate reality is one thing, but accessing the memories and the secrets of the thousands of human and non-human (Excalibur and Rulebreaker) blacksmiths scattered throughout history, the composition of materials, the complete histories of the blades themselves the moment he laid eyes on the blades (or didn't in the case of Excalibur) and calling upon it effectively almost every single time (the Ea exception) should be on another level altogether.

 

[Kai-]

His ability to download (for lack of a better word) and reproduce the skills of users of the weapon is because of UBW.

 

[Shiakou]

*eyes Gabriel Blessing and his horde of <s>Fate-haters</s> fanboys

Not everyone can be an hardcore Nasu fanboy and canon nazi.
Some peoples just read fanfictions for fun. Shocking, I know. :lol:

This is good natured jest, don't take it personally.

I Have no idea what you're talking about, Gabriel Blessing has never written an OOC character in his entire life and I spit upon the misguided men who claim this is not so.


*Ptoui*


Also: Oh my god I actually agree with an argument from Amodelsino, I have no idea what happened. I think I need therapy.

Yeah, and some people write hardcore yaoi for fun. Generally speaking, I get along fine with those people. Fate-haters.

Unless they attack me for not liking the same things they do or pointing out that some things in their stories are inconsistent. Fate-haters.

For example, there was this one time I made a literary criticism about the inherent predictability of the seme/uke pairing, and they called me homophobic and said I was on the same level as a bunch of genocidal maniacs. Fate-haters.

It's like they want to forbid me from saying anything negative about their stories. "That characterization is cliche, predictable, and not just a little creepy.", I said. "You're just a wet blanket!", they said. "Guy on guy rape is hot and we write it for fun so it doesn't need to be realistic!" they said. "If you're roleplaying a bisexual halfling, then why isn't he attracted to the psychotic, sadistic, villain who killed his townspeople? He's hot!" they said. Fate-haters.

"You're just stupid!" they said. "You're just jealous!" they said. "You're no better than the guys who started a war which ended up killing seventy-million people!" they said.

. . . No wait, that last one wasn't them. Fate-haters.

Seriously, I don't really mind the "nazi" designation so much as the sheer amount of gushing for what I see as a "not-fun" story and the air of "We're not stuck-up cause we don't care about canon which means we're better than you" that the horde exudes. But it's not that bad, and I'm sure we can get along: WizardOne and I happen to have similar tastes in the Nanoha fandom. So I don't really hate you guys or anything even though you're sometimes face-palm inducing.

Fate-haters.

. . . Wizard, you meanie. You told me you'd stop saying such things if I wore that dress. Fate-haters

 

[Garlak]

Wasn't it mentioned that there are three types of Heroic Spirits?

The ones that actually existed.

The ones that existed but are not known.

The ones that did not exist but were only legends.



Bad-ass as Gilgamesh the Heroic Spirit is, we don't even know for sure that he was a real person in Nasuverse?

Furthermore... he really might NOT have had treasures such as the flying ship. Note that Heroic Spirits get boosts from fame, renown, legend and mystery; Gilgamesh might have the flying ship because his legend is that of "one who knew and possessed everything" rather then because he ACTUALLY had it.


I mean, consider Rider Medusa; in Nasuverse, she never rode a pegasus while alive. So why does she have a pegasus? Because she has another connection to it; a pegasus was born from her blood when she was killed.



Also, as for current magics not being as strong... I think it's a matter of kind, not of degree. That is--magi are weaker not because there are more of them, but because modern, 500ish years old thaumaturgy, is inferior to older magic.
Note that we still have True Magic: in fact, True Magic does not truly die out. Instead, it as technology progresses and thaumaturgy with it, what was once a rule-breaking miracle becomes possible/accessible to modern thaumaturgy.

In the past, not only was the more common magic more powerful; but there were far more kinds of True Magic. It's just that some of the True Magic became reproducible by thaumaturgy... but even as it happened, thaumaturgy still "lost" some of its' "oomph." Furthermore, technology spread such that killing lots of people was much easier, and saving the world a more common event, making Heroic Spirits less common...

Also, by that point in time the Dead Apostle Ancestors went on a genocidal hunt for the True Ancestors. Arcuied was created around the... 12th? century and fought back, until Roa invoked her bloodlust--leading to even MORE slaughter of True Ancestors, Arc's loss of power to Roa and to needing to hold back her bloodlust...


Yeah, the shit kind of hit the fan in the past 1500 years or so in the supernatural world of Nasuverse... and even if Angel Notes doesn't come to pass, the world will STILL have to deal with ORT becoming active and Crimson Moon Brunestud being ressurected...

 

[1111]

The only fake heroic spirit is Sasaki Kojirou, and he only existed because Caster broke the rules and tried to summon a servant herself.

The only kinds of heroic spirits are the "Heroes" and the "anti-heroes". And the faith power boost isn't that great.

The nasuverse Gil is stated to had in live every treasure in the GoB, flying ships and all the weird shit included.

It's clearly stated in the Visual Novel

 

[Garlak]

Sasaki Kojiro, Archer EMIYA, Angra Mainyu.

They are not Heroic Spirits. They were summoned.

In one of the wars, two sisters both summoned two aspects of one Heroic Spirit into two Sabers.


There seem to be exceptions to the rule. Even the fact the rule is capable of being broken is odd..


And couldn't Gilgamesh have such fantastic stuff because his legend is having awesome stuff? That is, his wealth and knowledge became a noble phantasm part of his legend and so he even has stuff he shouldn't be able to.

Like a goddam flying machine.

 

[1111]

Did you read the novel at all?

A servant can't summon a servant, so Caster couldn't summon a Assassin and instead got a fake heroic spirit.

It is in the details tab in Archer Emiya status. He became a hero through a miracle. Even if it is the result of a pact with the World and becoming a counter guardian he is a heroic spirit, or something enough similar.

Angra Mainyu was summoned as an antihero. And while his alignament for killing remained he was the heroic spirit of the boy tortured to became the incarnation of the evil, not the evil god itself.

And No, Gilgamesh did have them while alive. Nasu said so in the novel and his word is the truth. Not matter what do you think, if he said that Gil's leyend was true and that he had that fucking flying machine, it is the absolute truth.


And I repeat it again. The faith in the leyend boost doesn't work like that.

 

[Tsuki_CB]

Also, by that point in time the Dead Apostle Ancestors went on a genocidal hunt for the True Ancestors. Arcuied was created around the... 12th? century and fought back, until Roa invoked her bloodlust--leading to even MORE slaughter of True Ancestors, Arc's loss of power to Roa and to needing to hold back her bloodlust...

Could you explain this to me? I'm afraid my knowledge in the that area is less then complete.

 

[sworded]

<a href='http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6556187/4/In_Flight' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>In Flight Ch 4</a>.

 

[grant]

Also, by that point in time the Dead Apostle Ancestors went on a genocidal hunt for the True Ancestors. Arcuied was created around the... 12th? century and fought back, until Roa invoked her bloodlust--leading to even MORE slaughter of True Ancestors, Arc's loss of power to Roa and to needing to hold back her bloodlust...

Could you explain this to me? I'm afraid my knowledge in the that area is less then complete.

I'll explain via PM.

 

[SoftRogue]

<a href='http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6556187/4/In_Flight' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>In Flight Ch 4</a>.

...and a <a href='http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LargeHam' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Large Ham</a> get's cooked! Bwahahaha

 

[Shaderic]

What did you expect?
Shirou's an experienced cook.

 

[Deathwings]

Shirou is not happy with Minaka's bullshit. :snigger:
And he sound pissed. "I'm about to UBW Gil's ass to hell and back" kind of pissed.

I'm actually finding myself pitying his opposition. :lol:

 

[Jomasten]

I'm waiting for either two things: to see Shirou have a moment of pure badassery against the opposition, and/or do what he does passably best and defy the odds and somehow get Akitsu 'winged' using the Servant contract.

I'm not sure about the likelihood of the second, but I'm sure of the first happening.

Though I haven't seen Sekirei that far yet, why is it that the description of a Scrapped Number sounds almost like a lesser-degree as being a Heroic Spirit?

 

[He-who-voted-for-Kodos]

Actually, I'm not totally sure, but I think GB got the explanation of Akitsu's deal wrong. If I remember right, it wasn't that she spontaneously winged herself, but that she was the test subject they used to perfect the winging process, and those experiments are why she can't be winged. But if that is the explanation given, I don't remember who gave it or if it was someone who could be reasonably expected to know for sure, like Takami or Matsu. It might have just been someone's load of BS.

 

[Jomasten]

Might be a plothole GN can exploit.

 

[kijin666]

Actually, I'm not totally sure, but I think GB got the explanation of Akitsu's deal wrong. If I remember right, it wasn't that she spontaneously winged herself, but that she was the test subject they used to perfect the winging process, and those experiments are why she can't be winged. But if that is the explanation given, I don't remember who gave it or if it was someone who could be reasonably expected to know for sure, like Takami or Matsu. It might have just been someone's load of BS.

He might have got it wrong intentionally. 'Winging' can be considered a magical contract in this story. If Akitsu winged herself here, Shirou can use Rule Breaker to cancel it and wing her himself.

 

[rdde]

"It means that her power grew so great that she reached a point where she was unable to be winged," Homura nearly hissed an explanation. "She's reached a level of strength so great she can no longer bare a crest, and without an Ashikabi to help her control it she's nothing more than a danger to herself and the world around her. She should have never been allowed out. So why," Homura snapped at Akitsu.

But does that explanation mean Shirou simply cannot brute force her winging? Homura and Musubi has only taken a little dose of his od and he does have a lot more that he can push.

I was on the edge of my seat hoping that Shirou would accidentally kiss Akitsu when he was fumbling for the phone to see what would happen.

If I remember right, it wasn't that she spontaneously winged herself, but that she was the test subject they used to perfect the winging process, and those experiments are why she can't be winged.

I doubt it as MBI would have taken more care of her. The way she went about it, it appears that her being broken was unplanned. If she was the test subject to perfect the process, she probably would have expressed her pain differently.

 

[Muramasa]

My only hope is that this fics Shirou doesn't become the <a href='http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JerkSue?from=Main.JerkassStu' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>faultless arrogant prick</a> he was in Hill of Swords. I couldn't even get through half of that story before I just couldn't take it anymore. That's the one thing that will ruin this fic for me.