Nasuverse Fate/time loop
- Thread starter Prince Charon
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Hard to say. In the game Mordred isn't given a gender as far as I can remember, in the backstory all I remember is that Mordred was a homunculus, and in the anime Mordred had a feminine tone as (s)he died.
However, for the sake of shipping with Shirou lets assume Mordred was, in fact, a woman. To make even more crack pairings, I propose that Guinevere was actually a man.
However, for the sake of shipping with Shirou lets assume Mordred was, in fact, a woman. To make even more crack pairings, I propose that Guinevere was actually a man.
Mordred's a homunculus born of Arturia's blood (most likely from magic being applied to an extracted egg or something) which explains the similarities in physical features. So I'm assuming Mordred in this scenario to be female since the donated material from Arturia's part will be an X Chromosome. Also, I'm coupling this with the theory that the red Saber from Fate Extra is in fact Mordred.
It's the same as Rin, HF states as much. Or, at least, her output is the same.
And, hair colour is caused by genes. That's how genetics works. So, how come Sakura has purple hair when her genes code for black hair?
I would agree entirely with your reasoning, because it makes perfect sense. But, unfortunately, it is canon that Mordred is male. I don't know how he is male, when he has two female parents, but he is.
It's just a case of Nasu failing genetics forever, and it's certainly not the first one....
And, hair colour is caused by genes. That's how genetics works. So, how come Sakura has purple hair when her genes code for black hair?
I would agree entirely with your reasoning, because it makes perfect sense. But, unfortunately, it is canon that Mordred is male. I don't know how he is male, when he has two female parents, but he is.
It's just a case of Nasu failing genetics forever, and it's certainly not the first one....
Well, considering how a lot of fans generally ignore Nasu's statements because of how complicated the Nasuverse can be and how Nasu isn't even sure about the Forest of Einasshe thing for Tsukihime and tends to answer questions regarding the Nasuverse with stuff made up on the spot (see Nasuverse), I'll probably just go with my line of reasoning at least with the scenario I'm working with.
I always thought that Sakura's hair was changed as a consequence of the worms being placed in her.
As for Mordred's sex, s/he was grown from a genetic sample using magecraft so his/her sex could have been changed by Morganna who I'm gonna go out on a limb and say was skilled enough to tamper with the gentics of the clone she created.
As for Mordred's sex, s/he was grown from a genetic sample using magecraft so his/her sex could have been changed by Morganna who I'm gonna go out on a limb and say was skilled enough to tamper with the gentics of the clone she created.
Point. But Rin's output is vastly increased by her magic crest. Even assuming that Sakura receives the same sort of advantadge from the Matou's magic, deciding that they have the same number of magic circuits is kind of iffy.
You know that when she was a child, Sakura's hair was the same as her sister's, right? Her hair and eyes turned purple after Zouken inserted his familiar in her body.
*shrug* Or you know, magic. We have very little information on Mordred. Assuming that he is what he is because the creator is a complete moron is somewhat hasty, don't you think?
I'm all for it.
You know that when she was a child, Sakura's hair was the same as her sister's, right? Her hair and eyes turned purple after Zouken inserted his familiar in her body.
*shrug* Or you know, magic. We have very little information on Mordred. Assuming that he is what he is because the creator is a complete moron is somewhat hasty, don't you think?
I'm all for it.
Except that the maximum total output is given by the number of circuits multiplied by the maximum output of each circuit. So, unless there is some huge coincidence that causes the quality of Sakura's circuits to be better than Rin by exactly the right amount to offset her lesser number of them, then it's reasonable to assume that they have the same number. However, what is unclear is if that "maximum output" includes the magic crest or not. If it doesn't, then Rin should probably have more actual circuits, since Sakura (at that point) doesn't have a magic crest any more (she's had the worms removed, and they act as the Matou magic crest).
In any case, what I was talking about is the number of circuits that they were born with. Given that they have the same total output, it makes no sense to assume that they were born with anything but the same number of circuits, especially since Rin says that Sakura has the same natural ability as her.
Yes, I do know that. That was, in fact, my whole point. Even though she has purple hair, her genes code for black hair. So, how come her hair (which grows continuously) is purple, even in the HF True epilogue, which happens several years after the removal of Zouken's worms from her body (by which time her old hair would have grown out completely)?
Where did his Y chromosome come from? Y chromosomes aren't just "male versions of X chromosomes", they're fundamentally different, and have genes coding for different things. So, where did the genetic material to make him male come from?
In any case, what I was talking about is the number of circuits that they were born with. Given that they have the same total output, it makes no sense to assume that they were born with anything but the same number of circuits, especially since Rin says that Sakura has the same natural ability as her.
Yes, I do know that. That was, in fact, my whole point. Even though she has purple hair, her genes code for black hair. So, how come her hair (which grows continuously) is purple, even in the HF True epilogue, which happens several years after the removal of Zouken's worms from her body (by which time her old hair would have grown out completely)?
Where did his Y chromosome come from? Y chromosomes aren't just "male versions of X chromosomes", they're fundamentally different, and have genes coding for different things. So, where did the genetic material to make him male come from?
I take it that's you failing math forever. With four unknowns, the number of possible combinations which would end up with an equal result is too great for you to just assume anything.
She does actually, Kirei couldn't remove the entirety of the crest and Sakura only removes one more worm afterwards. Which further muddle the issue.
In any case, It's nice of you to notice yet another reasons for the siblings to not have the same amount of magic circuit.
Again you takes words and try to make them say what they don't. They have "the same natural ability" doesn't mean "they are exactly the same in every way". Just like they don't have the same affinities, they don't have to possess the same number of circuits.
As said above, the worms are still there.
I don't know. Which doesn't matter at all, as that wasn't my point. My point is that you don't know either. You don't even know if it's a matter of chromosome, since we're not talking about a naturally born human being here, but a magically engineered homunculus. And until you do know, deciding that this was a stupid mistake on Nasu's part is unreasonable.
And I've finished arguing over pointless shit for today.
She does actually, Kirei couldn't remove the entirety of the crest and Sakura only removes one more worm afterwards. Which further muddle the issue.
In any case, It's nice of you to notice yet another reasons for the siblings to not have the same amount of magic circuit.
Again you takes words and try to make them say what they don't. They have "the same natural ability" doesn't mean "they are exactly the same in every way". Just like they don't have the same affinities, they don't have to possess the same number of circuits.
As said above, the worms are still there.
I don't know. Which doesn't matter at all, as that wasn't my point. My point is that you don't know either. You don't even know if it's a matter of chromosome, since we're not talking about a naturally born human being here, but a magically engineered homunculus. And until you do know, deciding that this was a stupid mistake on Nasu's part is unreasonable.
And I've finished arguing over pointless shit for today.
I won't take sides aside from adding that, yes, most of the worms were removed, not all. Kotomine did say he removed all he could, but that only bought some time.
That said, how did Zouken pull the hair change trick? I mean, it's possible to alter pigmentation in situ without genetic tampering. While the guy is like some unholy union of dr. Mengele and Unit 731 the level of understanding of genetics and biology required to do something like that are ... this doesn't make any sense. :crazy:
To use the more common and easier explanation ... A wizard did it, in this case literally.
Doesn't play right, mind. I mean, it feels too much like Star Trek where anything under the sun can breed with anything else, no questions asked, no issues ... even though the elemental composition of the blood in two species is completely different.
Nevertheless, to add a counter-arguement, it's a matter of genetic material. Magical origin notwithstanding the resultant product drew it's genetic code from two sources ... both sources are female, which means not one Y chromosome in sight.
That said, a Wizard did do it, so I'm not picking a side in this arguement. Some wizard, though. Genetic engineering in the Middle Ages, damn ... Merlin is good.
I suppose that, in the end, the whole point of this post is to point out (no pun intended) that some of the explanations simply make no sense. Most of these characters should have no idea how to do some of the things they do. Genetic engineering, modification of the human body outside the womb ... it's something modern science has barely started to touch upon in the past few decades. It's not something a wizard a thousand years ago or a wizard a couple of centuries old should know about, much less be able to do.
If this post doesn't make sense, I apologize, it's late, I've had a long day, I'm running a fever and am, subsequently, doped up to my eyebrows.
That said, how did Zouken pull the hair change trick? I mean, it's possible to alter pigmentation in situ without genetic tampering. While the guy is like some unholy union of dr. Mengele and Unit 731 the level of understanding of genetics and biology required to do something like that are ... this doesn't make any sense. :crazy:
To use the more common and easier explanation ... A wizard did it, in this case literally.
Doesn't play right, mind. I mean, it feels too much like Star Trek where anything under the sun can breed with anything else, no questions asked, no issues ... even though the elemental composition of the blood in two species is completely different.
Nevertheless, to add a counter-arguement, it's a matter of genetic material. Magical origin notwithstanding the resultant product drew it's genetic code from two sources ... both sources are female, which means not one Y chromosome in sight.
That said, a Wizard did do it, so I'm not picking a side in this arguement. Some wizard, though. Genetic engineering in the Middle Ages, damn ... Merlin is good.
I suppose that, in the end, the whole point of this post is to point out (no pun intended) that some of the explanations simply make no sense. Most of these characters should have no idea how to do some of the things they do. Genetic engineering, modification of the human body outside the womb ... it's something modern science has barely started to touch upon in the past few decades. It's not something a wizard a thousand years ago or a wizard a couple of centuries old should know about, much less be able to do.
If this post doesn't make sense, I apologize, it's late, I've had a long day, I'm running a fever and am, subsequently, doped up to my eyebrows.
There are many possible combinations that could lead to it, but it would have to be a massive co-incidence. Rin says specifically that they have exactly the same capacity. Yes, you're right that there are many ways to get that with four unknowns, but there are many more ways tonot get it.
If it's a genetic thing, on the other hand, then it gives a reason (in Nasu genetics, anyway) for them to have the same capacity, but in that case, you'd expect it to come from them having the same number of circuits too.
Kirei removed everything but for the worm in her heart, I believe (I'd have to check the game to be sure). Besides, the HF epilogues (HF Normal, I think) make it quite clear that the worms are gone. Even if Kirei hadn't removed them, they cause her a lot of pain, and they drain her prana, so she'd have found a way to get them removed (I'm sure that Rin could do it, given enough thought).
Having the same natural ability implies having the same number of circuits.
And, as I said, they're not. She says (in the HF Normal epilogue, IIRC) that they're gone, and Kirei removes them all except for Zouken's main worm, which she pulls out later on.
He removed them all except for the one in the heart, IIRC. In any case, they were definitely not there after the war, because she specifically states that they're gone.
If it's a genetic thing, on the other hand, then it gives a reason (in Nasu genetics, anyway) for them to have the same capacity, but in that case, you'd expect it to come from them having the same number of circuits too.
Kirei removed everything but for the worm in her heart, I believe (I'd have to check the game to be sure). Besides, the HF epilogues (HF Normal, I think) make it quite clear that the worms are gone. Even if Kirei hadn't removed them, they cause her a lot of pain, and they drain her prana, so she'd have found a way to get them removed (I'm sure that Rin could do it, given enough thought).
Having the same natural ability implies having the same number of circuits.
And, as I said, they're not. She says (in the HF Normal epilogue, IIRC) that they're gone, and Kirei removes them all except for Zouken's main worm, which she pulls out later on.
He removed them all except for the one in the heart, IIRC. In any case, they were definitely not there after the war, because she specifically states that they're gone.
Or he's like the guy from this manga.
You woundn't need to play with genes to make Mordred male - just hormones during the earliest developmental phases. 'He' would then techniqually be genetically female, but for almost all real purposes, he would be male. The same thing happens in reverse in some 'males' born with a rare condition where their cells ignore testosterone. For basicly all intents and purposes, they end up infertile girls - I belive theirs a mildly famous model who falls into that grouping, in fact.
In the matter of hair colour, some years ago, someone in Japan developed a drug that can permanently change the taker's hair colour (as in, the hair keeps growing out in that colour, without needing more of the drug). It had nasty side effects, and thus was pulled, but it existed, so the effect could probably be created by other means.
No, I can't find the article on it.
No, I can't find the article on it.
QFT. Nasty side effects would be something of a paradise compared to her youth there. However I imagine that Zouken simply never cared*, he didn't even intend for her to survive being a Holy Grail, and everyone else probably assumed it was a normal dye. It isn't like anyone would be able to find out, until she started staying around Shirou I don't think Sakura had any friends.
*Reading this reminds me of how irritating his end was. The freakish worm-man should have been skewered on a stick and burned over a fire for fifty years. Then turned over to Ilya for the real torture.
*Reading this reminds me of how irritating his end was. The freakish worm-man should have been skewered on a stick and burned over a fire for fifty years. Then turned over to Ilya for the real torture.
I find it hummorous that everyone is arguing how she could have purple hair when her family has black and not the fact that she actualy has purple hair when it shouldn't be possible for any human or mamal that I know of. This is anime many laws of physics and basics of genetics are thrown out just to make something look cool. In the end its either just A) Anime hair color, B ) black that looks purple in certain light, or C) A wizard did it.
Actually, until the Grail War came around, Sakura was never actually meant to become a Holy Grail. He thought that the war wouldn't happen for another fifty years, so she was only an experiment, so that he could learn the procedure, and work out how best to 'train' her heir in order to maximise his control and the heir's power. But, when the Grail War came around, she was just too perfect for him not to use her.
But, nevertheless, he wasn't particularly bothered about how long she lived and, indeed, he expected his treatment of her to shorten her lifespan. As long as she survived long enough for him to get a child out of her to 'train', he couldn't care less how much she suffered or how badly it damaged her body.
As for the hair colour, there's no fundamental reason why people can't have purple or blue hair. It's just that, in the real world, we never evolved genes that would allow us to grow such hair. In the Nasuverse (and, in fact, in general anime/VN universes), they presumably did. I would assume that everyone but Rin believes that Sakura's hair is naturally purple, especially since Shinji's is blue. As for Rin, I have no idea what she thinks about it....
And, yeah, Zouken's death was far too painless. But, what is even worse is that he's a Karma Houdini outside of HF. He never gets his commuppance, Sakura stays under his control and he's free to plot to gain immortality, torture Sakura and to eat innocent people whenever he needs them to remain alive. Yeah, he should have suffered a lot more, but at least he's dead....
I never thought I could hate a fictional character as much as I hated him after reading HF, until I read Fate/Zero, and realised that he's even worse. I mean, in HF, he's mostly 'just' an immoral bastard who uses Sakura to gain himself immortality, but in Fate/Zero, not only is it more explicit what he does, but he also enjoys it far too much, even reviving Kariya by using the worm that ate Sakura's virginity, and then gloating about it to Kariya (who, remember, is fighting for him, in order to save Sakura), solely for the lulz.
But, nevertheless, he wasn't particularly bothered about how long she lived and, indeed, he expected his treatment of her to shorten her lifespan. As long as she survived long enough for him to get a child out of her to 'train', he couldn't care less how much she suffered or how badly it damaged her body.
As for the hair colour, there's no fundamental reason why people can't have purple or blue hair. It's just that, in the real world, we never evolved genes that would allow us to grow such hair. In the Nasuverse (and, in fact, in general anime/VN universes), they presumably did. I would assume that everyone but Rin believes that Sakura's hair is naturally purple, especially since Shinji's is blue. As for Rin, I have no idea what she thinks about it....
And, yeah, Zouken's death was far too painless. But, what is even worse is that he's a Karma Houdini outside of HF. He never gets his commuppance, Sakura stays under his control and he's free to plot to gain immortality, torture Sakura and to eat innocent people whenever he needs them to remain alive. Yeah, he should have suffered a lot more, but at least he's dead....
I never thought I could hate a fictional character as much as I hated him after reading HF, until I read Fate/Zero, and realised that he's even worse. I mean, in HF, he's mostly 'just' an immoral bastard who uses Sakura to gain himself immortality, but in Fate/Zero, not only is it more explicit what he does, but he also enjoys it far too much, even reviving Kariya by using the worm that ate Sakura's virginity, and then gloating about it to Kariya (who, remember, is fighting for him, in order to save Sakura), solely for the lulz.