Nasuverse [FSN] Centralized Random Idea Thread

[Ryuugi]

Centralized Random Idea Thread

I'm going to have to rip a number of the arguments in this thread to bits now.

If he were to see Lancelot in one of Saber's memories of the Fourth Holy Grail War, he'd be able to trace the weapon he saw empowered by Knight of Honor. Once he realizes what it really is, he might well be able to combine it with his Tracing to trace weapons at their full Rank, because it grants the attribute of "one's own Noble Phantasm" to any weapon you weild.

This is completely incorrect, for a number of reasons. First of all, Shirou couldn't copy Knight of Honor's effects, since Knight of Honor isn't a weapon. This is like saying that since Shirou used Nine Lives with Berserker's club thing, He'll be able to use it with any weapon. Which he can't. Second of all, the notion that he'd be able to abapt it to his tracing is stupid and, even if possible, wouldn't do anything.

As for Fragarach, I'm pretty sure Gae Buidhe would, at the very least, prevent the anti-trump power of it, even if it couldn't negate the autokill power. I'm pretty sure Rho Aias would stop the autokill, though, since Fragarach is a thrown weapon, which Rho Aias is a perfect defense against.

No, Gae Buidhe would do nothing. Also, Rho Aias has been broken through, and it would be completely ignored anyway, so it would do nothing.

He doesn't use reinforcement to do that. He can either make the swords move as they did when wielded by the original hero, or project the actual physical strength of the wielder of the weapon he traces (although he only ever managed this in HF when he had all of Archer's skill).

Reinforcement is different.

Also, Shirou sucks at Reinforcement.

Hmm? I thought the rank-down was because he wasn't the true weilder of those weapons. He has Saber weilding that Caliburn along with him, which is why it was at full power. With Knight of Honor, he would be. He probably would be able to Trace it; if he were to trace a Noble Phantasm that was only a Noble Phantasm due to its effects, the only way to trace said Noble Phantasm would be to trace Knight of Honor along with it.

First of all, no, that's not why there is a rank down. Also, tracing a NP that was only an NP due to the effect of KoH wouldn't allow him to use KoH in general anymore the tracing that club allowed him to use NL in general.

I got the spears mixed up, though; I meant Gae Dearg. Gae Buidhe is the one that makes unhealable wounds, Gae Dearg is the one that ignores non-physical defenses.

Which would do nothing.

Umm... Gilgamesh's weapons are a Rank down. That's why Shirou was able to defeat him in Unlimited Blade Works.

No, they aren't. Shirou won because Gil was a dumbass.

That's what allowed him to overcome Gil in close combat, and UBW allowed him to get into close combat, whereas pretty much anyone else would get skewed before they got close.

And that really only worked because Gil was to stupid too put on his Armor (which held up against Saber).

Hmm. Went onto Fuyuki wiki on the web archive, and found this: "Gate of Babylon: *snip* The key-like sword (which is the Noble Phantasm itself, not the vault) to enter the golden capital of Gilgamesh."

Does this mean Shirou ought to be able to trace the key and open the Gate of Babylon to swipe Gil's stuff?

Well, since Shirou never saw that blade (nor did anyone else, actually), no.

I also found precisely nothing supporting either of our positions; please tell me where you've found that info. Otherwise, it looks like mine's closer, given how it was stated in the game and all.

What? That was not stated in the game. It was just stated that Gil was an owner, instead of a user. All those weapons are at their normal power.

Which was proven when Gil used Gungnir to break God Hand.

 

[Muramasa]

Centralized Random Idea Thread

Also, Shirou sucks at Reinforcement.

He's got a long way to go, but I wouldn't say he sucks. In Fate route he did use a variant of reinforcement (most likely alteration) to turn a large stick into a usable bow.

 

[Ryuugi]

Centralized Random Idea Thread

Also, Shirou sucks at Reinforcement.

He's got a long way to go, but I wouldn't say he sucks. In Fate route he did use a variant of reinforcement (most likely alteration) to turn a large stick into a usable bow.

He also tried to use it on Light bulbs and made them explode.

 

[Muramasa]

Centralized Random Idea Thread

Ah. Good point.

 

[trevelyan1983]

Centralized Random Idea Thread

I also found precisely nothing supporting either of our positions; please tell me where you've found that info. Otherwise, it looks like mine's closer, given how it was stated in the game and all.

Yours relies on total misinterpretation and unfounded assumptions based on one statement at the end of UBW.

What's difficult to understand about the statement? Gil and Shirou are both owners, with lots of weapons. Every other Servant is a wielder, with only one weapon.

Gil's weapons are "weaker" only in the sense that he is a jack of all trades, master of none. Shirou gets around this by recreating the history and experiences of a weapon, or else he'd be in the exact same boat.

 

[Shaderic]

Centralized Random Idea Thread

And now to steal the spot-light from Nick.

And this is more of a random thing I'm probably stealing from Kieran (The plot device he used to get Enishi and Rainbow running).

Now, I know almost nothing about Zeltrech personality wise, except that he drove a few of his apprentices nuts. Or crippled them. Or made them renounce sorcery. Given that, and the Kaleido stick, I'm not always inclined to think of him as really nice guy.

So, forgive me if this is out of character for him.

Zeltrech decides to do something he hasn't messed with since he was a lot younger. It's nothing too bad. It's just transplanting.

Basicaly, he grabs people, and drops them off... elsewhere. Oh, he makes some arrangements, so they're not killed or anything, but he needs something interesting to watch.

Basicaly, this is a throwaway idea/plot device that allows for crossover with just about anything you can think of.

Of course, this probably out of character for the Wizard Marshall, but hey! I never claimed this was all that serious of an idea anyway.

And can anyone find a frigging picture of Zeltrech? I've never actually seen him... And boy, have I looked.

 

[Muramasa]

Centralized Random Idea Thread

The guy in the upper left hand corner is Zelretch.

 

[Shaderic]

Centralized Random Idea Thread

Discuss.

 

[Shiakou]

Centralized Random Idea Thread

Basically, when you've got a weapon made from the remnants of a world, why would you use anything else to kill worlds?

For the same reason swords/guns made from human flesh would not be the most effective weapons against humans.

*points at Kiritsugu's gun that fires ashes of his bones*

You were saying?

That there are far more effective weapons against humans in the Nasuverse than guns which fire bonedust?

Maybe you should read my posts again. You asked why people would bother making other weapons than the weapons made out of the same kind of material as their targets. I pointed out that while such weapons might be effective, there are much more effective weapons. Surely, even you admit that Ea's human-killing power potential ranks much higher than Kiritsugu's guns?

 

[nick012000]

Centralized Random Idea Thread

Basically, when you've got a weapon made from the remnants of a world, why would you use anything else to kill worlds?

For the same reason swords/guns made from human flesh would not be the most effective weapons against humans.

*points at Kiritsugu's gun that fires ashes of his bones*

You were saying?

That there are far more effective weapons against humans in the Nasuverse than guns which fire bonedust?

Maybe you should read my posts again. You asked why people would bother making other weapons than the weapons made out of the same kind of material as their targets. I pointed out that while such weapons might be effective, there are much more effective weapons. Surely, even you admit that Ea's human-killing power potential ranks much higher than Kiritsugu's guns?

Well, yeah, but it also requires stupid amounts of prana to use; it probably uses about as much as an Excaliblast, which is 700-800 units of prana. I'm not sure if the gun uses any once the bullets were enchanted.

 

[Shaderic]

Centralized Random Idea Thread

Kiritsugu's guns were for use against mages.

Against normal people, it makes far more sense to use something like a gun with regular bullets.

Theoreticaly, that's even better, since it doesn't require the powdered bone of a guy.

...

Why are we talking about this?

Have some random ideas!

Shirou picks up the Kaleido stick!

What happens? I DON'T KNOW!

He could turn into Archer... Shonen version. That's the first thing that comes to mind. Magical warrior Archer!

A REAL super hero.

 

[Ryuugi]

Centralized Random Idea Thread

Basically, when you've got a weapon made from the remnants of a world, why would you use anything else to kill worlds?

For the same reason swords/guns made from human flesh would not be the most effective weapons against humans.

*points at Kiritsugu's gun that fires ashes of his bones*

You were saying?

That there are far more effective weapons against humans in the Nasuverse than guns which fire bonedust?

Maybe you should read my posts again. You asked why people would bother making other weapons than the weapons made out of the same kind of material as their targets. I pointed out that while such weapons might be effective, there are much more effective weapons. Surely, even you admit that Ea's human-killing power potential ranks much higher than Kiritsugu's guns?

Well, yeah, but it also requires stupid amounts of prana to use; it probably uses about as much as an Excaliblast, which is 700-800 units of prana. I'm not sure if the gun uses any once the bullets were enchanted.

Actually, we have no proof that Ea requires very much (if any) in the way of prana. Gil used it often enough, while on a limited prana supply, and didn't seem bothered, so it can't cost too much. Besides, Excalibur converts prana directly into light, so it is based completely upon raw power and prana, so it's not a good example of prana useage. And it can level cities.

Those guns cost two ribs, are limited in number, and can't be reused.

 

[Amodelsino]

Centralized Random Idea Thread

Enuma Elish uses wind as a medium for it's reality ripping effect, rather then creating it out of prana. So at the very least, it would be more cost effective than Excalibur.

Actually, doesn't that mean that it would be completely useless against True Assassin? Not that it would matter since he would just get skewered by GoB.

 

[Ryuugi]

Centralized Random Idea Thread

Enuma Elish uses wind as a medium for it's reality ripping effect, rather then creating it out of prana. So at the very least, it would be more cost effective than Excalibur.

Actually, doesn't that mean that it would be completely useless against True Assassin? Not that it would matter since he would just get skewered by GoB.

No. The wind compression and acceleration is the method through which Ea causes a collapse in time-space, but not the actual attack. The attack is said resultant collapse in the fundamental aspects of reality.

 

[Shiakou]

Centralized Random Idea Thread

Basically, when you've got a weapon made from the remnants of a world, why would you use anything else to kill worlds?

For the same reason swords/guns made from human flesh would not be the most effective weapons against humans.

*points at Kiritsugu's gun that fires ashes of his bones*

You were saying?

That there are far more effective weapons against humans in the Nasuverse than guns which fire bonedust?

Maybe you should read my posts again. You asked why people would bother making other weapons than the weapons made out of the same kind of material as their targets. I pointed out that while such weapons might be effective, there are much more effective weapons. Surely, even you admit that Ea's human-killing power potential ranks much higher than Kiritsugu's guns?

Well, yeah, but it also requires stupid amounts of prana to use; it probably uses about as much as an Excaliblast, which is 700-800 units of prana. I'm not sure if the gun uses any once the bullets were enchanted.

Doesn't matter. ^_^

Your question was "why use another weapon aside from the ones made from Types to kill Types?". The logical parallel of that is "why use another weapon aside from the ones made from humans to kill humans?"

The answer? For Ea; Higher effectiveness, higher range, less countermeasures, greater area of effect, not limited to magical targets, and the ability to rip reality apart. Higher costs? Maybe (and what's the sauce on that?), but that only matters if you can't afford it; Gilgamesh can. :wub:

Seriously, there are a LOT more effective anti-human weapons than Kiritsugu's guns. Even a normal machine gun is more effective against large numbers of humans than said guns. And that's why people will continue to make anti-human weapons that aren't dependent on human tissue to function.

t: Damn you for re-activating my addiction to smilies.

 

[Muramasa]

Centralized Random Idea Thread

Where does it say Ea requires large amounts of Prana to use?


I heard Ea is actually a very cost efficient NP.

 

[Ryuugi]

Centralized Random Idea Thread

Where does it say Ea requires large amounts of Prana to use?


I heard Ea is actually a very cost efficient NP.

It doesn't say that anywhere, which is why I said:

Actually, we have no proof that Ea requires very much (if any) in the way of prana. Gil used it often enough, while on a limited prana supply, and didn't seem bothered, so it can't cost too much. Besides, Excalibur converts prana directly into light, so it is based completely upon raw power and prana, so it's not a good example of prana useage. And it can level cities.

Those guns cost two ribs, are limited in number, and can't be reused.

 

[firestorm]

Centralized Random Idea Thread

Discuss.

sauce?

That said, I wonder how this would go? IIRC Medea was fanatically devoted to whatshisface because he was kind to her...how would she react to Shirou?

 

[Ryuugi]

Centralized Random Idea Thread

Discuss.

sauce?

That said, I wonder how this would go? IIRC Medea was fanatically devoted to whatshisface because he was kind to her...how would she react to Shirou?

http://blstorage.manga-sketchbook.org/

It's from Gilgamesh VS Rin.

 

[Muramasa]

Centralized Random Idea Thread

Honestly, I think Shirou's fucked. A lot of Caster's advantages she had because she set up base at the Ryudouji Temple. Plus we now have an enemy Saber on the loose.

 

[Ryuugi]

Centralized Random Idea Thread

Honestly, I think Shirou's fucked.? A lot of Caster's advantages she had because she set up base at the Ryudouji Temple.? Plus we now have an enemy Saber on the loose.

And it was stated that Caster could, at best, take off a few of Berserker's lives. We saw what happened when Gil fought Caster. Lancer has Magic Resistance B, and good statsand NPs. Archer fought Caster, and won. Rider also has Magic Resistance B, and good stats and NPs. Oh, and if the enemy Saber is Arturia? Well...yeah.

Oh, yeah. And Shirou sucks as a Master (for Casters). So, she's not getting much in the way of Prana.

 

[Avider]

Centralized Random Idea Thread

Not like the last point matters. Kuzuki was even worse.

It's Shirou's disposition that's gonna impair Caster from gathering prana.

Honestly, the only way I can see Caster surviving is if a certain coin could be used.

 

[Ryuugi]

Centralized Random Idea Thread

Not like the last point matters. Kuzuki was even worse.

It's Shirou's disposition that's gonna impair Caster from gathering prana.

Honestly, the only way I can see Caster surviving is if a certain coin could be used.

And since Caster is unable to use that coin, that's not happening.

 

[Prince Charon]

Centralized Random Idea Thread

Shirou picks up the Kaleido stick!

What happens? I DON'T KNOW!

He could turn into Archer... Shonen version. That's the first thing that comes to mind. Magical warrior Archer!

A REAL super hero.

I'd say he turns into The Arrow... Silver Age version. :snigger:

 

[nick012000]

Centralized Random Idea Thread

Not like the last point matters.? Kuzuki was even worse.

It's Shirou's disposition that's gonna impair Caster from gathering prana.

Honestly, the only way I can see Caster surviving is if a certain coin could be used.

And since Caster is unable to use that coin, that's not happening.

My impression was that she's capable of using it; she's just not capable of controlling what happens when she does.