Nasuverse [FSN] Centralized Random Idea Thread

A

Avider

Well-Known Member
#101
#101
Centralized Random Idea Thread

Regardless of how he used it, GoB is not a sword spamming spell.

The Shadow = Sakura + Contract/Connection with Avenger (through a remnant of the Grail implanted by Zouken).

Angra Mainyu = Avenger. That is, all the evil's of the world is condensed in his spirit. He's still not a god, but he's the closest thing to Angra Mainyu.
 
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nick012000

Well-Known Member
#102
#102
Centralized Random Idea Thread

Shiakou said:
nick012000 said:
Basically, when you've got a weapon made from the remnants of a world, why would you use anything else to kill worlds?
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For the same reason swords/guns made from human flesh would not be the most effective weapons against humans.
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*points at Kiritsugu's gun that fires ashes of his bones*

You were saying? :p

As a side note, Emiya Shirou using that would be nasty, since he could Trace its ammunition relatively easily, and use Reinforcement of his arms to increase their strength and thereby their ability to deal with the recoil, so he could open up with it on "semi-automatic" in a way Kiritsugu never could.
 
A

Amodelsino

Well-Known Member
#103
#103
Centralized Random Idea Thread

Regardless of whether or not that would work in canon, I'm pretty sure Griever started a fic with that very premise.

Of course, it also had him trace Fragarach, which would make him so broken it's not even funny, so I'm pretty sure it was more about Rule of Cool than anything.
 
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nick012000

Well-Known Member
#104
#104
Centralized Random Idea Thread

Amodelsino said:
Regardless of whether or not that would work in canon, I'm pretty sure Griever started a fic with that very premise.

Of course, it also had him trace Fragarach, which would make him so broken it's not even funny, so I'm pretty sure it was more about Rule of Cool than anything.
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More than tracing Gae Bolg, or Rule Breaker, or the Jeweled Sword of Zelretch, or any of the other hax Noble Phantasms? :p
 
A

Amodelsino

Well-Known Member
#105
#105
Centralized Random Idea Thread

It will neutralize any trump card and kill the user of said trump without exception (Yes, that includes shit like Excalibur and Enuma Elish. There is no exception). It costs fuck all and it even works on passive things like God Hand. If Shirou can trace and use it, that means it doesn't have the limit of 10 uses a year like it does with Bazett, and it doesn't take any time to prepare.

I suppose I was exaggerating a bit, since it wouldn't break the Shirou in the fic in question (given he's weaker than pretty much everybody), but it could certainly end up that way very easily.
 
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nick012000

Well-Known Member
#106
#106
Centralized Random Idea Thread

A thought: Shirou has access to Saber's memories. He can use Reinforcement to mimic the physical traits of Servants.

If he were to see Lancelot in one of Saber's memories of the Fourth Holy Grail War, he'd be able to trace the weapon he saw empowered by Knight of Honor. Once he realizes what it really is, he might well be able to combine it with his Tracing to trace weapons at their full Rank, because it grants the attribute of "one's own Noble Phantasm" to any weapon you weild.

As for Fragarach, I'm pretty sure Gae Buidhe would, at the very least, prevent the anti-trump power of it, even if it couldn't negate the autokill power. I'm pretty sure Rho Aias would stop the autokill, though, since Fragarach is a thrown weapon, which Rho Aias is a perfect defense against.
 
A

Amodelsino

Well-Known Member
#107
#107
Centralized Random Idea Thread

He doesn't use reinforcement to do that. He can either make the swords move as they did when wielded by the original hero, or project the actual physical strength of the wielder of the weapon he traces (although he only ever managed this in HF when he had all of Archer's skill).

Reinforcement is different.

I don't see how Gae Buidhe could possibly do that, given Fragarach isn't an active sorcery. It only activates when used against the trump (unless the user is an idiot who feels like wasting a shot for a D rank energy attack).

Gae Buidhe isn't a trump anyway.

EDIT: I don't even know what the hell you're talking about in relation to Knight of Honor. It doesn't magically make a weapon above C rank stronger. The weapons Shirou traces are already his NPs.

Besides, the one rank down thing has exceptions anyway. The Caliburn Shirou traced against Berserker had to be A rank, otherwise it wouldn't have gotten through God Hand.
 
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nick012000

Well-Known Member
#108
#108
Centralized Random Idea Thread

Hmm? I thought the rank-down was because he wasn't the true weilder of those weapons. He has Saber weilding that Caliburn along with him, which is why it was at full power. With Knight of Honor, he would be. He probably would be able to Trace it; if he were to trace a Noble Phantasm that was only a Noble Phantasm due to its effects, the only way to trace said Noble Phantasm would be to trace Knight of Honor along with it.

I got the spears mixed up, though; I meant Gae Dearg. Gae Buidhe is the one that makes unhealable wounds, Gae Dearg is the one that ignores non-physical defenses.
 
A

Amodelsino

Well-Known Member
#109
#109
Centralized Random Idea Thread

If that were the case, then Gilgamesh's weapons would be a rank down too. Shirou says they're both exactly he same in regards to being owners rather than wielders. The NPs still belong to him. The rank down comes from the fact that they are traced copies (though obviously he is able to trace some better than others).
 
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nick012000

Well-Known Member
#110
#110
Centralized Random Idea Thread

Amodelsino said:
If that were the case, then Gilgamesh's weapons would be a rank down too. Shirou says they're both exactly he same in regards to being owners rather than wielders. The NPs still belong to him.
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Umm... Gilgamesh's weapons are a Rank down. That's why Shirou was able to defeat him in Unlimited Blade Works.
 
A

Amodelsino

Well-Known Member
#111
#111
Centralized Random Idea Thread

What? I don't remember it saying that anywhere in UBW. He beat him for a variety of reasons, but that isn't one of them. Besides, as I said it definitely isn't a perfect rule. Shirou's traced Caliburn literally had to be A rank. Which means the rank down comes from more than simply being an 'owner'.
 
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trevelyan1983

Well-Known Member
#112
#112
Centralized Random Idea Thread

Read Fuyuki more. UBW causes a loss of rank because Shirou is using one sense to analyse the subject - and because nothing can be wholly understood and analysed by a single sense, the recreation is imperfect. GoB holds original, real NPs - there's never been any indication of their ranks changing.

In terms of Caliburn, I recall the latest translation of Fate indincating that an NP above B is needed to get past Godhand, and that means that even B+ would suffice. But that only guarantees one piercing - if The King hadn't been holding The King's Sword alongside Shirou, you can forget taking all of Berserker's remaining lives.

That aside, transferring concepts from one NP to another is probably impossible, unless Shirou has Archer's arm or a few more decades of experience. Expecting him to pull it out of his ass is in the middle of the Grail War when he doesn't have a clue about any of his own capabilities seems like textbook no-limits fallacy.
 
A

Amodelsino

Well-Known Member
#113
#113
Centralized Random Idea Thread

No. It had to be A.

Q. Lancer, Caster, Assassin, and True Assassins; all with normal attack and Noble Phantasms of B or lower. If they fought against Berserker, wouldn't it be a one-sided fight? Or are there any of them that can match up against him?
A: Assassin and True Assassin by themselves wouldn't even be a fight. Lancer can use his runes and Noble Phantasm together to temporarily raise the rank to A, but it'd still be a very disadvantageous fight but "one with some chances". Caster has two front-line Saber-class defenders, so if she uses her high sorcery then she'd be able to deal damage, but that would be limited to 2 to 3 times. Also, in the game, Assassin was able to push Berserker back because of the terrain advantage and support from Caster (weighing down Berserker's body). ...Well, since the compatibility of Assassin and Berserker is horrible, the fact that Berserker was even pushed back is enough to say "whoah, Kojirou's amazing".
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Lancers NP attack Striking Death Flight is B+. Nasu said that he would have to use his runes to raise it to A. The + don't help in getting past God Hand.

EDIT: This is backed by the fact that according to Saber, getting past God Hand is reliant on the mystery behind the attack. Thus power raisers like + modifiers shouldn't do anything.

"If Berserker's true identity is the great hero of Greece, his abilities are mostly rank A. If we want to injure him, I believe we have to use an attack value that is at least of the same rank."

"...Attack value of the same rank? So in other words..."

"...Yes. It is difficult to say, but I believe any attack below A rank will be nullified, whether normal attack or Noble Phantasm. If we want to defeat that giant, we would need a normal attack power of at least A rank, and a Noble Phantasm that exceeds even that."

"____"
I close my eyes and recall Saber's abilities.
Saber's strength... her normal attack power is B rank, and her Noble Phantasm is C rank.

...God.
If what Saber says is right, not only is it impossible to defeat Berserker, but we don't even have a way to hurt him...!

"H-Hold on! Um, aren't strength and Noble Phantasms measured differently? No matter how low the rank is, a Noble Phantasm is a powerful weapon, right? So if you measure it in terms of strength, shouldn't it be at least A rank?"

"Yes. Noble Phantasms are incomparable to regular attacks. A Noble Phantasm of a C rank, when converted to a normal ability, would have A or A+ rank ...But the 'refusal' that protects Berserker goes beyond the laws of reality."

"That thing is a concept that can nullify even a Noble Phantasm that can destroy the world, if it is below an A ranking. Berserker... Hercules is a heroic spirit with divinity. One can only affect a heroic spirit who has received the blood of gods with a divine mystery of the same level."
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N

nick012000

Well-Known Member
#114
#114
Centralized Random Idea Thread

trevelyan1983 said:
Read Fuyuki more.? UBW causes a loss of rank because Shirou is using one sense to analyse the subject - and because nothing can be wholly understood and analysed by a single sense, the recreation is imperfect.? GoB holds original, real NPs - there's never been any indication of their ranks changing.

In terms of Caliburn, I recall the latest translation of Fate indincating that an NP above B is needed to get past Godhand, and that means that even B+ would suffice.? But that only guarantees one piercing -? if The King hadn't been holding The King's Sword alongside Shirou, you can forget taking all of Berserker's remaining lives.

That aside, transferring concepts from one NP to another is probably impossible, unless Shirou has Archer's arm or a few more decades of experience.? Expecting him to pull it out of his ass is in the middle of the Grail War when he doesn't have a clue about any of his own capabilities seems like textbook no-limits fallacy.
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And I suppose the game (from 7:38 onwards) saying otherwise is unimportant? ;)
 
L

Liam-don

Well-Known Member
#115
#115
Centralized Random Idea Thread

Yeah, it says that Gilgamash isn't a weilder, i.e. that unlike the other Servants he hasn't mastered the use of any of his NP, but nothing about lowered ranks.
 
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Amodelsino

Well-Known Member
#116
#116
Centralized Random Idea Thread

Like I said. All that says is that he's an owner. It says nothing in regards to ranks at all. He can't wield them to their full potential because he has no fucking skill with them. Shirou's swords aren't the same level as the originals because they're simply not the same level. He does have the same skill as the original wielders, or rather, his swords have the same skill, while he just holds on to them and lets them attack.

That's what allowed him to overcome Gil in close combat, and UBW allowed him to get into close combat, whereas pretty much anyone else would get skewed before they got close.
 
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trevelyan1983

Well-Known Member
#117
#117
Centralized Random Idea Thread

nick012000 said:
And I suppose the game (from 7:38 onwards) saying otherwise is unimportant? ;)
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I've seen that scene before. It's awesome, but it does not mention ranks for GoB, at all.
 
N

nick012000

Well-Known Member
#118
#118
Centralized Random Idea Thread

trevelyan1983 said:
nick012000 said:
And I suppose the game (from 7:38 onwards) saying otherwise is unimportant?á ;)
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I've seen that scene before. It's awesome, but it does not mention ranks for GoB, at all.
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Hmm. Went onto Fuyuki wiki on the web archive, and found this: "Gate of Babylon: *snip* The key-like sword (which is the Noble Phantasm itself, not the vault) to enter the golden capital of Gilgamesh."

Does this mean Shirou ought to be able to trace the key and open the Gate of Babylon to swipe Gil's stuff? :p

I also found precisely nothing supporting either of our positions; please tell me where you've found that info. Otherwise, it looks like mine's closer, given how it was stated in the game and all.
 
A

Amodelsino

Well-Known Member
#119
#119
Centralized Random Idea Thread

What? Your position is that Gilgamesh's weapons somehow magically are less powerful than they were later on in their existence simply because he doesn't know how to wield them properly. You have no evidence for that at all, and the game suggests nothing of the sort.
 
M

Muramasa

Well-Known Member
#120
#120
Centralized Random Idea Thread

Lancers NP attack Striking Death Flight is B+. Nasu said that he would have to use his runes to raise it to A. The + don't help in getting past God Hand.
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That's very strange considering due to the way the ranks are scaled, a 'B+' attack is actually more powerful then an 'A rank' attack.


The plus modifier takes the power of the original attack and doubles it.


A:50
A+:100

B:40
B+: 80
 
A

Amodelsino

Well-Known Member
#121
#121
Centralized Random Idea Thread

Like I said, getting past God hand has nothing to do with destructive power. If Ea was ranked as B (for some arbitrary hypothetical reason), it's full power attack still wouldn't harm Herakles. A B ranked attack with the destructive power of a nuke wouldn't harm Herakles.

Also, I've never seen where the numerical value for the ranks on Fuyuki come from. Nasu certainly never expressed them that way (or I've never seen him do so anyway). Is there an explanation on those somewhere?
 
A

Amodelsino

Well-Known Member
#123
#123
Centralized Random Idea Thread

That's not actually what I meant. I've read that before, but it's never explained where the idea that E=10 A=50 etc. comes from. B+ could actually be less than A in power if the ranks don't increase that way.

The status screens in the game just put ranks there.
 
M

Muramasa

Well-Known Member
#124
#124
Centralized Random Idea Thread

Ah. Sorry, I don't think I can help you there. Maybe F1 knows.
 
A

Avider

Well-Known Member
#125
#125
Centralized Random Idea Thread

There is another possibility with Caliburn other than it being A rank.

And that is, the attack itself was A ranked.

That seems to be something a lot of people forget. To get pass God Hand, either the weapon has to be A rank, or the attack has to be A ranked. STR A with Rank C NP would get pass God Hand, and likewise, STR C with Rank A NP as well.

(Which probably means Shirou was swinging Caliburn with STR A to cut Berserker arm off as well.)
 
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