Harry Potter HP and the Gates Oblivion

Delcera

Well-Known Member
#26
shout27 said:
Bunga said:
Taking another look at TES mythology and especially their genesis mythos, I am struck by a few weird thoughts. Assuming that Earth and our universe lies outside of Mundus, Harry is in a very unique position.

After all, the only previous entity to enter Mudus from outside is Padomay/Sithis.

Even assuming that Sithis is an entirely different class of being to a human, which is a fairly reasonable assumption to make imo, there is still a lot of reasons to suspect that Harry might not be bound my the laws the mortal inhabitants of Nirn are bound by.

His magic for example does not originate from Magnus or the Aetherius. He is neither descended from the Ehlnofey nor were his ancestors created by Lorkhan or any of the other Aedra. His sense of time was not created by Akatosh, and is most likely different from the time which exists on Nirn (for example, I doubt dilation effects exist there in the same sense as here). He does not (presumably) have Arkay's Blessing, and could therefore have his soul trapped in a non-Black soul gem.

Technically, Harry is in fact a Deadra. Both in meaning and effect, as it means "not our ancestor" and in effect, as he originates outside of Mundus and has powers not affiliated with it. It wouldn't surprise me if the local rules governing existance and being on Nirn treat him as a Deadra Lord in many ways.
This sounds interesting, tell me more. . .
Wait, as in Daedric Prince?

Amusing as that thought is, it seems to be treading a very fine line...

Though I do find myself wondering who he would identify/associate with
 

Robo Jesus

Well-Known Member
#27
Delcera said:
shout27 said:
Bunga said:
Taking another look at TES mythology and especially their genesis mythos, I am struck by a few weird thoughts. Assuming that Earth and our universe lies outside of Mundus, Harry is in a very unique position.

After all, the only previous entity to enter Mudus from outside is Padomay/Sithis.

Even assuming that Sithis is an entirely different class of being to a human, which is a fairly reasonable assumption to make imo, there is still a lot of reasons to suspect that Harry might not be bound my the laws the mortal inhabitants of Nirn are bound by.

His magic for example does not originate from Magnus or the Aetherius. He is neither descended from the Ehlnofey nor were his ancestors created by Lorkhan or any of the other Aedra. His sense of time was not created by Akatosh, and is most likely different from the time which exists on Nirn (for example, I doubt dilation effects exist there in the same sense as here). He does not (presumably) have Arkay's Blessing, and could therefore have his soul trapped in a non-Black soul gem.

Technically, Harry is in fact a Deadra. Both in meaning and effect, as it means "not our ancestor" and in effect, as he originates outside of Mundus and has powers not affiliated with it. It wouldn't surprise me if the local rules governing existance and being on Nirn treat him as a Deadra Lord in many ways.
This sounds interesting, tell me more. . .
Wait, as in Daedric Prince?

Amusing as that thought is, it seems to be treading a very fine line...

Though I do find myself wondering who he would identify/associate with
It's hinted that most Daedric Princes draw their powers both from within themselves, from their realms, and possibly the cosmology of TES itself in general (at least that is the vibe I got from The Shivering Isles). Of course, comparing Harry's power to that of any Daedric Prince at this time would be like comparing the explosive power between a small Firecracker to that of a couple sticks of Dynamite. Still, Bunga is right. Harry is a Daedra. No if's, and's, or but's about it. He's a mortal Daedra, yet still a Daedra.

Does this mean that Harry would make a better candidate replacement for Sheogorath as the Greymarch comes about? Maybe. However, it might also make Harry the least suited person for the job, as the powers of Sheogorath's realm may outright reject him, or not stick with him at all.

[Devil's Advocate Time]

Harry not being of Mundus also opens up the possibility of him having some 'abilities' right off the bat (or at least considering as such by the average joe of Nirn). It's possible that Harry, alongside whatever living Emperor is wearing the Amulet of Kings, are the only people on the whole of Nirn capable of percieving time 'correctly.' It's also possible (though unlikely) that Harry has the ability to do something no one else living on Nirn can. Slightly alter or mess with the flow of both time and space. Remember, the wizards of Harry's world do things like going around and messing with both time and space, and so long as a time paradox isn't created in regards to time manipulation, nothing bad comes from those actions (and anything bad that does happen usually only happens to the person who does it). On Nirn, those idiots who fuck with time/space in the least cause Dragon Breaks to occur. Of course, knowing in Harry's luck, it could just be an issue of how Mundus is set up, and any such action messing with time/space is still likely to result in a Dragon Break.:p

[/Devil's Advocate Time]

Of course, even having the ability to do something doesn't mean he would have the knowledge on how to do so. It's likely that Harry doesn't know shit about time or space magics whatsoever, as in the last three books, Harry was a fucking lazy retard who relied almost exclusively on Hermoine to do the thinking and learning for him instead of doing that for himself. However... you know, that is a thought to consider. Hermoine being the Hero here instead of Harry. Hmm, anyways, getting back on track. Harry being a Daedra means that Weird ShitÖ is likely to occur with any sort of magic designed to affect the more well known Daedra the people (Wizard's) interact with accidentally touching or interacting with his person/being/body (summoning circles, binding runes, things of that sort). More than that, Harry isn't just a Daedra, but he is in essence a being very much like, and very different from, Sithis (which is likely to freak everyone the fuck out), and that fact is likely to result in either a lot of fear or hostility if it becomes known.

Hell, can you imagine what the Dark Brotherhood would do if this sort of information reached their ears? A being much like Sithis, but not directly related as such, wandering about the countryside? That right there is too good an opportunity for them to pass up. And this isn't even accounting for the other guilds, cults, and power players who might take an interest in Harry for their own reasons should they learn anything of him.
 
#28
Sheogorath did mention that there was something different about the player, but he couldn't put a finger on it. Perhaps now we know why, as Harry is a Daedra without a realm to call his own.

This could be used as "The Power He Knows Not". All Harry has to do is lure Voldemort into the Shivering Isles were he can totally PWN him. After all, if Harry were to become Sheogorath, he would be the "God" of that Realm.

Besides, I'm sure there was a time when the Daedric Princes were each on the low end of the power spectrum and eventually grew into their respective powers and realms. So Harry isn't an immortal god-like entity now, it doesn't mean he doesn't have the potential to grow into one.

That's what Sheogorath tried to do with the player in the Shivering Isles... Of course he was only partially successful.
 

Delcera

Well-Known Member
#29
mandalorianjedi said:
Sheogorath did mention that there was something different about the player, but he couldn't put a finger on it. Perhaps now we know why, as Harry is a Daedra without a realm to call his own.

This could be used as "The Power He Knows Not". All Harry has to do is lure Voldemort into the Shivering Isles were he can totally PWN him. After all, if Harry were to become Sheogorath, he would be the "God" of that Realm.

Besides, I'm sure there was a time when the Daedric Princes were each on the low end of the power spectrum and eventually grew into their respective powers and realms. So Harry isn't an immortal god-like entity now, it doesn't mean he doesn't have the potential to grow into one.

That's what Sheogorath tried to do with the player in the Shivering Isles... Of course he was only partially successful.
So Harry Potter becomes the Madgod?

I want to see that.
 

Belgarion213

Well-Known Member
#30
That....could be very interesting. Now I'm getting the urge to actually load the game again and play through Shivering Isles again...

Hmm...

If Harry's power was vastly different (it should be considering its some sort of Daidric in origin) I wonder how the Arcane University would view it. Actually that could be rather interesting. Harry can cast the spells...but he does it in a very odd manner.

As for the Daedra Realms....Mahurnes Damon at least created one demi-plane to throw some chump Conjurer though, with the island he was standing on, when he pissed Dagon of. Now granted Harry as he would appear in the dungeon or even at the end of the stopping of the invasion of Oblivion would be nowhere NEAR that powerful but...

Also remember that not all Daedra are Daedra princes. There are all the Daedra minions that each of the princes holds in their realm. So Harry would be unusual, but not THAT unusual. More I see Harry feeling odd because He has his OWN power but
1. He is still 'mortal'
2. his power while his own is minuscule in comparison to one of the Princes.

Now Harry COULD I guess become a Daedra.

However yeah Harr yas the Mad God would be pretty interesting.
 

Bunga

Well-Known Member
#31
Calling Harry a Deadra (or rather Daedroth, the singular term) is both right and wrong though, even if the assumptions I made pan out.

The Daedra Lords and the Aedra gods (given that they are the same "species", or at least have the same origin) are all creations/children of the interaction between Anu and Sithis. The lesser Deadra are the creations of the Deadra Lords and/or the Aedra gods.

Harry is not a child of Anu and Sithis. Other than the fact that he currently walks on a world which the "children" of those entities created, he has no affiliation or connection to them at all. Precisely what that means is very much up for debate, since very little about the underlying rules governing Mundus is known.

What is death, for example? Does Harry fall under the domain of Arkay, who controls the domain of birth and death. Harry was born yes, but not under the auspices of Arkay. Will he die? Will he age? Akatosh is the ruler of time, but how much can his will affect Harry?

Also, Harry's magic is very different from that in Mundus. I'm not sure why it worked so differently in Oblivion and Morrowind, let alone the other games, but it is very different from all those versions. Transfiguration is basically unknown there, except for the Wabbajack, which is a Daedric Artifact. We have also never really seen if using Harry-magic tires a person down, or if wizards have some mana pool or something like that. Can Harry even use normal Mundus-magick? Presumably yes, since that is an artefact of Magnus leaving creation before anything was really created and opening a hole to Aetherius, and Harry should be able to see the sun (and the stars) just like anyone else.

My original point was that Harry is most likely something entirely unique, similar to Sithis but with a physical body and human mind and perspective, but possibly more like a Daedra Lord in terms of survivability or power.

Or perhaps like someone with a connection to the Heart of Lorkhan... Possibly Harry is a living Heart, tied only to himself, with powers that would make Almalexia green with envy. But to make any real progress one would first have to know what the source of the Deadra Lords' powers are, and which of their limitations are intrinsic to them and which are caused by divine decree.
 
#32
So Harry isn't quite a Daedra, but possibly some sort of an equivalent being in Mundus or even something more, with the potential to evolve into a supreme being of significant power.

What type of limitations, if any, would he have?

Obviously he can still die and be injured, otherwise the story would get rather boring real quick, but what else?
 
#33
Here's a continuation of the last snippet. Still, not much change (if any) from the Oblivion game, but at least the story is moving right along.

There is also a lot more action in this next part.

Let me know if this is Good, Bad or Ugly!

------------

YouÆre pretty sure that if heÆs not dead already, he will be if you just leave him there. However, you canÆt risk waking him or alerting others to your presence as that would most certainly spell certain doom for you.

You frown.

Seeing this one down here, there are bound to be more. This does not bode well for you. Oh how you really wish you had your fatherÆs old invisibility cloak or even took the time to learn the nifty disillusionment spell that Moody cast on you on the way to Grimmauld Place last year. Either one of those would have been great to have.

Taking a look around you see another one of those giant rats, only this one is dead and on a rotisserie spit. Despite the fact that the sight of it makes you cringe and your stomach rebel against you, the smell is actually quite alluring.

Making sure you donÆt see any more of those creatures, you creep around the makeshift campsite. Seeing nothing you can use, you make your way deeper into the cave. Again you spot another one of the Goblin-esque creatures, but before you can act, you slip on a rock alerting it to your presence. It quickly turns and lunges at you with astonishing quickness and agility. Only your superior reflexes, honed through years of dodging bludgers and your cousinÆs fist allow you to react in time to save your own skin, with the first spell that came to mind.

ôEXPELLIARMUS!ö

A silver bolt of magic lances out from your wand and meets the creature dead on in mid air. ItÆs sword is wrenched out of itsÆ hand and it is flung backwards onto a rock ledge. You canÆt help but wince as it crashes hard on the edge snapping itÆs spine.

You have yet to use a lethal spell and youÆre three for three on the dead Goblin encounters, though in your own defense, that first one was already dead before you got there. Despite the fact that the creature was going to kill you, you canÆt help but feel guilty about the whole idea of having killed. Taking a moment to reflect on what has transpired so far, you force yourself to continue on.

YouÆre so lost in your thoughts, you completely miss the trip wire until you step on it. Immediately, you dive to the side scrapping your hands on the rock cave floor as three rather heavy spiked objects attached to the ceiling by chains nearly swat you like an insignificant bug.

Assassins, giant rats, goblins and now trapped corridors... This really hasnÆt been your day.

You shakily get up and make your way down the next corridor, trying to put everything out of your mind for now. You have more important things to think about, like surviving and getting out of this damned cave- and after that, getting home. YouÆd almost rather sit through one of UmbridgeÆs, hell LockhartÆs defense class rather than spend another moment in wherever it is that you are.

The cave opens up into a rather large cavern. Below, in a pit, you can see a Goblin poking at some of those giant rats in a cage. You also see two more Goblins across the cavern to your left, one to your right and another on the pit, though this one is different. It is wearing a long robe and has a gnarled staff with a large rock tied onto the staff head strapped to itsÆ back.

You surmise that this one is probablly some sort of shaman and can probablly do some sort of magic. Thinking back to your history lessons, what little bit of them you managed to stay awake through in five and half years, you canÆt remember if the goblins back home could do magic or not and how potent it was if they could.

Oh how you wished Hermione was here right now, the girl had the answer to everything. Not that you were unintelligent, but you had gotten rather lazy at finding your own answers since that fateful day you met Ron on the train and perhaps relied on Hermione a bit too much over the years.

You make a silent oath to study with Hermione more once you get back.

Shaking yourself from your thoughts, you try to quickly come up with plan before deciding you should just wing it. Planning is more HermioneÆs thing anyway, youÆre better at æshooting from the hipÆ as the muggles would say.

ôAlohamora!ö you whisper, a small stream of magic hits the cages and they pop open. The giant rats immediately pounce on the Goblin and it screams out in pain trying unsuccessfully to fight them off. The other goblins see this, but before they can act, youÆre attacking.

ôStupefy! Stupefy!ö you quickly shout taking out the two on the right. Suddenly the last remaining goblinsÆ attention are on you. The one on the right is closer and has itsÆ sword drawn charging at you. ôStupefy!ö

The goblinÆs head snapped back as you hit it right between itsÆ eyes.

You barely catch the movement of the last goblin out of the corner of your eye. You turn your head towards it, only to find yourself hitting the ground as quick as you can as a bolt of lightning charging right through their air where you were standing just a few seconds prior.

You scramble to get up, but the Goblin has already struck again, only this time itsÆ aim is true.

A scream tears through your throat as an electrically charged bolt of magic charges through your body. YouÆre knocked off your feet and slam against the wall.

YouÆre dazed for a moment- though you canÆt be sure whether itÆs from the impact from hitting the wall or from the electricity still running through your body.

The goblin, noticing it hasnÆt finished you off yet, goes in for the kill. YouÆre certain that if youÆre hit once more with another bolt of lightning youÆre done for. ItÆs through sheer will power that your able to move at all as you scramble behind a stalagmite. However, it shudders under the force of another bolt of lightning striking it.

You take advantage of the precious few seconds it takes to cast one of those lightning spells.

ôREDUCTO!ö you loudly shout as you pop up from behind the stalagmite. The red bolt of magic strikes true as it leaves a large hole where the goblin mageÆs torso used to be. You sigh as you slump against the stalagmite, allowing yourself to slide back onto the ground. You find yourself shaking. Whether it is from the bolt of lightning that struck you, your coming off an adrenaline high, or even the fact that the goblin mage met a rather messy end at your hands, you are unsure.

What you are sure of, is the fact that this journey is probablly going to get a lot worse from here.

YouÆve got a bad feeling about this...
 

SEG-CISR

Well-Known Member
#34
I like it. It's well-written, and it shows hope that this is not a hopeless situation in that Harry may get back home- but we all know he won't don't we? :evil2:
 

Belgarion213

Well-Known Member
#35
Was pretty interesting. Now Harry fighting etc looks good and we DO know Harry isn't getting back to easily. HIs determination to do SOME studying is probably going to head him to the Mage Guild sooner or later (even if there magics work differntly I think Harry could learn at least something from them).

Hmm what I think is going to be really interesting is if Harry has his wand snapped or damaged.... However its been a while but... Harry mind end up using a Oblivion style Staff sooner or later if only because his Wand is relatively irreplaceable compared to the stuff.
 

Cornuthaum

Well-Known Member
#36
Given that I'm playing Oblivion at the moment, this is very, very much pertinent to my interests.

Proceed. ;_;
 

Robo Jesus

Well-Known Member
#37
Belgarion213 said:
Was pretty interesting. Now Harry fighting etc looks good and we DO know Harry isn't getting back to easily. HIs determination to do SOME studying is probably going to head him to the Mage Guild sooner or later (even if there magics work differntly I think Harry could learn at least something from them).

Hmm what I think is going to be really interesting is if Harry has his wand snapped or damaged.... However its been a while but... Harry mind end up using a Oblivion style Staff sooner or later if only because his Wand is relatively irreplaceable compared to the stuff.
Except that a TES Staff and a HP Wand are completely different from each other in both make and use. Harry will never be able to use a TES Staff as you're suggesting, as they aren't used in such a way that is any way comparable to an HP Wand.

If Harry's wand breaks, so long as the core isn't destroyed, the wand can be replaced with a similar enough wood. Granted, the 'new' wand probably wouldn't be anywhere as good a quality as one Olivander could create (Olivander could probably shit one of better quality in all honesty), but it would still be a workable wand. What's more, Harry might be able to cobble together another wand or two without having his main wand break first, as the main parts that make up an HP wand is wood wrapped around a magical core. And you know that how wands are made will be something talked about in class, and should be 'simple enough' in theory (though you know what they say about the difference between 'theory' and 'practice'). Harry's issue in making a wand here though will be finding tools able to cut and fit the wood together correctly and consistently, as well as finding appropriate materials to use for cores (without getting himself killed in the process :p ).
 

Belgarion213

Well-Known Member
#38
True enough. Just for clarification how IS a Eldar Scrolls Staff constructed? its been a while since I actually played the game.

EDIT: Actually Harry loosing his wand and slowly having to rely on Eldar Scroll magic and some cobbled together quasi-artificats(not literal but you sort of get what I mean. Magical objects he created himself with his own magic instead of calling for others etc) that he created himself (aka poured his own power into instead of grabbing it from anywhere else) could be interesting and sort of help the shift mentioned where people show up to find him and find him pretty entrenched in this new world.
 

Robo Jesus

Well-Known Member
#39
Belgarion213 said:
True enough. Just for clarification how IS a Eldar Scrolls Staff constructed? its been a while since I actually played the game.

EDIT: Actually Harry loosing his wand and slowly having to rely on Eldar Scroll magic and some cobbled together quasi-artificats(not literal but you sort of get what I mean. Magical objects he created himself with his own magic instead of calling for others etc) that he created himself (aka poured his own power into instead of grabbing it from anywhere else) could be interesting and sort of help the shift mentioned where people show up to find him and find him pretty entrenched in this new world.
A TES Staff is essentially a charged (non-changable) spell repository usable by any idiot. The staff may have one enchantment of either Alteration, Restoration, Destruction, Illusion, Mysticism, or Conjuration placed upon it. The more powerful the spell on the staff, the less charges the staff will be able to hold (more power = less number of times it can be used). The Staff itself is created from a large (or a collection of decently sized) piece(s) of magical wood which are then shaped and enchanted by a member of the mages guild for use.
 

Belgarion213

Well-Known Member
#40
So a wild assed guess would be that the magical wood of the TES staff is somehow able to hold raw magical energy than can be channeled through a certain spell structure? hmm.

I see what you mean. While there are probably SOME similarities they are wildly different. A HP wand is some form of wood (though its not mentioned its probably wood that has a decent magical channeling ability or grown in such a way as to have magical properties itself) and then a magical 'core' of a powerful magical creature.
 
#41
Now, Harry's class is unique to him as he is a Wizard, but what constellation (if he had been born in Tamriel) would he have been born under?

Also, what did you think of Harry's reactions to everything so far? Were they real and accurate enough?

I think I'll explore the difference between HP Wands and ES Staves in the next snippet- at least briefly. It won't be a specific technical thing though as that isn't the type of person Harry is.
 

Delcera

Well-Known Member
#42
Honestly, I could kind of see Harry being born under The Thief.

After all, ninety percent of Harry's victories in canon have been, as McGonagall put it, "sheer dumb luck."
 
#43
Of course, that also raises the question on whether or not that would even matter since Harry was not born on Mundus. Of course given the fact that Harry is there now, it stands that he should at least be affected by his environment in someway.

After all he gets cold, hot, etc... Who says he can't gain the benefits and weaknesses of the constellations?
 

Belgarion213

Well-Known Member
#44
Actually one thing I think could be handled well is power scaling. In the game unless you used mods at max level your enemies etc were leveling with you. Now in a realistic setting by the time Harry is, for instance, a certified badass Blade, Master Wizard or whatever after running around doing stuff I wonder how that would play out.

And yeah at the moment Harry is not a very technical person, that might tchange though if he has to learn any native magic (which I think he would since its the more prevalent. Remember Harry only has year 5-6 spells in his own world where here if he put the effort in he could raid the Arcane University etc.

Actually that's a question I think would be interesting. Can Harry use his own magic to cast native spells?
 

Azrael

Well-Known Member
#45
Read almost the whole thread, and my only comment is, Morrowind was better....
 

Jakkun

Well-Known Member
#47
The talk of the veil being used to send Harry there led me to another idea, Sirius. We have no idea if he died or not, he was just exiled basically. He could wake up in the cell and wonder how he got himself in jail once again. I doubt anyone would actually read the story since it isn't a main character, but it could still be fairly good.
 

Bunga

Well-Known Member
#49
Cliffracers only annoy you for the first five hours of play or so though, once you get the Boots of Blinding Speed and the ability to fly, you can just outrun them.
 

ar_ranma

Well-Known Member
#50
It takes you five hours to get the Boots of Blinding Speed and levitate? :hmm:

Everything becomes trivial once you get those anyway... including the final boss.
 
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