Nasuverse Let's talk about FRO!
- Thread starter daniel_gudman
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So, if familiars are made with [souls], why does Rin say that magi have no use for souls?
Hm. I think the key word here would be inconvertible. So souls can be used to power Servants and familiars because the energy type does not change?
Even so, one would think that magi would collect souls if they were useful components of familiars.
Also, are souls made of memories? Archer says that Servants can eat souls and memories, and Zolgen in F/ro says that thoughts can be used as the [Soul].
Also, I wonder if resurrection is on the table for the players that get good at collecting spirits.
Hm. I think the key word here would be inconvertible. So souls can be used to power Servants and familiars because the energy type does not change?
Even so, one would think that magi would collect souls if they were useful components of familiars.
Also, are souls made of memories? Archer says that Servants can eat souls and memories, and Zolgen in F/ro says that thoughts can be used as the [Soul].
Also, I wonder if resurrection is on the table for the players that get good at collecting spirits.
So there are two things going on here:
1) If someone develops Rezz magic "in game" that could totally blow Kayaba's story that "chardeath is realdeath lol." So he won't be enthusiastic about it.
...Related to that, as long as people think the magecraft is merely a game expansion instead of, like, real, obviously it can't bring back the dead, right?
2) The Nasuverse is the kind of setting where bringing someone back from the dead isn't that hard, but doing it in a way that doesn't make them insane or some kind of (literal) monster is... much harder.
Basically resurrection without horrible side effects is True Magic, whereas bringing somebody back as some kinda zombie is... easier.
Probably this thread instead of Ideas or Previews... unless you've got enough content that it could support its own thread.
1) If someone develops Rezz magic "in game" that could totally blow Kayaba's story that "chardeath is realdeath lol." So he won't be enthusiastic about it.
...Related to that, as long as people think the magecraft is merely a game expansion instead of, like, real, obviously it can't bring back the dead, right?
2) The Nasuverse is the kind of setting where bringing someone back from the dead isn't that hard, but doing it in a way that doesn't make them insane or some kind of (literal) monster is... much harder.
Basically resurrection without horrible side effects is True Magic, whereas bringing somebody back as some kinda zombie is... easier.
Probably this thread instead of Ideas or Previews... unless you've got enough content that it could support its own thread.
Isn't resurrection going to be future plot points?
I mean after kirito meets sachi and sees her die, he kind of get motivated to learn more about magic especially in resurrection area. Ilya will definitely gives advice to kirito and kirito might get a lesson while resurrection is actually a bad idea. Resurrected sachi might even become a floor boss or something.
I mean after kirito meets sachi and sees her die, he kind of get motivated to learn more about magic especially in resurrection area. Ilya will definitely gives advice to kirito and kirito might get a lesson while resurrection is actually a bad idea. Resurrected sachi might even become a floor boss or something.
Illya will probably stop Kirito though, since she's really blunt and know the numerous numerous fuckups that could happen with resurection.
More likely that Kirito bought some rumors about resurrection and works his ass off to get it, only to learn that resurrection magic in Nasuverse is different from magic resurrection in other games.
More likely that Kirito bought some rumors about resurrection and works his ass off to get it, only to learn that resurrection magic in Nasuverse is different from magic resurrection in other games.
Well yes, the easy type of resurrection would be to infuse the soul into a familiar.There would be some damage. The better they get at creating familiars, though...
From what I understood, the Third Magic is Materialization of the soul, not resurrection. Moving the soul to a higher plane sort of thing.
As long as they believe its a game and not real they wont be able to bring back the dead. I suppose that to them, the players, if they could rez the injured party before the microwave pulse goes off, they could do it.
Can someone answer my previous post about souls?
From what I understood, the Third Magic is Materialization of the soul, not resurrection. Moving the soul to a higher plane sort of thing.
As long as they believe its a game and not real they wont be able to bring back the dead. I suppose that to them, the players, if they could rez the injured party before the microwave pulse goes off, they could do it.
Can someone answer my previous post about souls?
Touko also thought that the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception couldn't kill a zombie because it was "already dead" which, as we already know, is bullshit. In other words, Touko thinks a lot of things about things she doesn't really know anything about. If she knew how Sorcery worked she would be a Sorcerer.
Not quite. That's actually exactly how it works, because it's limited to the perception and understanding of the individual. Ryougi still viewed a zombie as 'alive'. She wouldn't have been able to kill it if she naturally viewed it as dead. Touko thinking a dead body would be dead to Ryougi isn't such a stretch. Nasu specifically used the example that she would be able to kill a working streetlight but not a broken one.
In which she differs from Tsukihime, where Shiki can in fact kill anything.
From what i understand the problem with actual "resurrection" in nasu is that when you have been dead for a while the soul is gone and it is thus really hard to do anything to it. The third magic if i remember correctly if the materialization of the soul, so that you can mess around with it without breaking it.
From what i understand the problem with actual "resurrection" in nasu is that when you have been dead for a while the soul is gone and it is thus really hard to do anything to it. The third magic if i remember correctly if the materialization of the soul, so that you can mess around with it without breaking it.
It works the same in both worlds. You kill that which your understanding of death reaches, living or dead. That's actually the difference between Nanaya Shiki's Eyes and Tohno SHIKI's. The Eyes that SHIKI gained from Roa were based upon his understanding of Life, while Shiki's worked trough actual Death, so they reached any conceptual death.
It's actually described once how Shiki could see new lines in the pieces of things he destroyed if he bothers to look.
Basically no, Touko was talking about something she knew next to nothing about, only the rumors about a lone Mythical figure whose Eyes were on a level so beyond Ryougi's that he used them in a completely different way.
EDIT:
Also, if you want more examples: She claims in the sixth movie that Araya should have used a mundane prison for Shiki as she was "the death to the strange", implying that Shiki can't cut physical matter with the same ease that she can cut trough concepts and magic. We know this to be false, as in a previous movie we have seen Shiki open doors by cutting their locks.
Years after knowing her she still doesn't know how the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception work.
It's actually described once how Shiki could see new lines in the pieces of things he destroyed if he bothers to look.
Basically no, Touko was talking about something she knew next to nothing about, only the rumors about a lone Mythical figure whose Eyes were on a level so beyond Ryougi's that he used them in a completely different way.
EDIT:
Also, if you want more examples: She claims in the sixth movie that Araya should have used a mundane prison for Shiki as she was "the death to the strange", implying that Shiki can't cut physical matter with the same ease that she can cut trough concepts and magic. We know this to be false, as in a previous movie we have seen Shiki open doors by cutting their locks.
Years after knowing her she still doesn't know how the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception work.
Actually, the books do explain that Shiki does have a harder time cutting physical matter than she does non-physical matter. Attempting to do it without a weapon (her finger for instance) actually hurts her. We see this when she's in the hospital initially. So yeah, she can cut through physical matter, but if she's in a heavily fortified room with no weapon, then ideally she'll take damage for every layer she "kills" and she would have to kill multiple layers of wall. Compare this to a conceptual prison, where she simply kills the concept.
From what I can see, reversing physical death is a high level, but certainly attainable magecraft. Rin revives Shirou after Lancer stabs him, albeit it costs her a jewel with years worth of prana to perform. There are also numerous auto-resurrection mechanics that appear including Touko's perfect replicas and Dead Apostle's time reversal regeneration. Roa from Tsukihime has a particularly interesting one where he allows himself to reincarnate without going through a proper death cycle.
With this in mind, I think what people in the Nasuverse mean when they say resurrection is impossible is probably referring to resurrecting someone after they enter the cycle of reincarnation and therefore have had their soul move on. Basically, if someone has been dead long enough that their soul has moved on (and we have no idea how long this actually takes) it is impossible to resurrect them because it would mean somehow pulling their soul back into the real world after it has dispersed into the cycle of reincarnation and therefore should no longer exist as a singular object.
It would be like trying to find all the particles of sand that went into a sand castle after a wave has knocked the castle down and scattered the particles across the beach. How could you which particles you were looking for. Then how could you fit all the grains in the correct pattern in order to get that exact sand castle again. Only, the difficulty is even higher than that because it means reaching into the root to achieve in the first place.
Heroic Spirits are one of the few exceptions to this rule due to being pulled out of the cycle of reincarnation and preserved in the Throne of Heroes. Even then, it still takes fragments of the Third Magic to give them false vessels in the form of "Servants" and they are merely copies, not the original spirit. In addition to that, they aren't actually human when resurrected as Servants, even if they hold many similarities.
So to summarize, I think that what most magi mean when they say resurrection is impossible isn't reversing physical death, but returning a soul that has moved onto the next step in the cycle of reincarnation to life.
Or I could be misreading things/experiencing translation fail. *shrugs* :3
Anyways, in regards to FRO, I think that this might mean that quick resurrections could be justified later in the game. They would likely require the healer to begin them before the "deceased's" avatar shatters into polygons though. In this way Kayaba could allow players to know resurrection is possible, but their is a time limit. This way he could preserve his "die in the game you die for real" facade, and at the same time encourage the players to pursue quick resurrection spells. Then there's also the incredibly remote possibility of someone in game figuring out a self-resurrection technique. But in that direction lays the creation of Dead Apostles, so let's hope not. We'll have to wait and see what Daniel decides on.
With this in mind, I think what people in the Nasuverse mean when they say resurrection is impossible is probably referring to resurrecting someone after they enter the cycle of reincarnation and therefore have had their soul move on. Basically, if someone has been dead long enough that their soul has moved on (and we have no idea how long this actually takes) it is impossible to resurrect them because it would mean somehow pulling their soul back into the real world after it has dispersed into the cycle of reincarnation and therefore should no longer exist as a singular object.
It would be like trying to find all the particles of sand that went into a sand castle after a wave has knocked the castle down and scattered the particles across the beach. How could you which particles you were looking for. Then how could you fit all the grains in the correct pattern in order to get that exact sand castle again. Only, the difficulty is even higher than that because it means reaching into the root to achieve in the first place.
Heroic Spirits are one of the few exceptions to this rule due to being pulled out of the cycle of reincarnation and preserved in the Throne of Heroes. Even then, it still takes fragments of the Third Magic to give them false vessels in the form of "Servants" and they are merely copies, not the original spirit. In addition to that, they aren't actually human when resurrected as Servants, even if they hold many similarities.
So to summarize, I think that what most magi mean when they say resurrection is impossible isn't reversing physical death, but returning a soul that has moved onto the next step in the cycle of reincarnation to life.
Or I could be misreading things/experiencing translation fail. *shrugs* :3
Anyways, in regards to FRO, I think that this might mean that quick resurrections could be justified later in the game. They would likely require the healer to begin them before the "deceased's" avatar shatters into polygons though. In this way Kayaba could allow players to know resurrection is possible, but their is a time limit. This way he could preserve his "die in the game you die for real" facade, and at the same time encourage the players to pursue quick resurrection spells. Then there's also the incredibly remote possibility of someone in game figuring out a self-resurrection technique. But in that direction lays the creation of Dead Apostles, so let's hope not. We'll have to wait and see what Daniel decides on.
From what I can tell, souls are made from memories. The Third brings back souls that have moved on, or puts soul on a higher plane, or something. Servants can eat souls and memories because they are 'made from the same cloth' sort of thing.
The thing is, Rin says that magi have no use for souls. They can't be used for energy, they can't be shaped or changed.
F/sn Wrote:
Souls are only "Things to be studied" or "Things to be moved into containers."
It's incomprehensible not merely to suck them out, but also to collect them in a single place.
It's because a magus has no use for them even if one were to collect this inconvertable energy.
So how are players able to use [Souls] for making familiars? If it is normal to use souls, why is Rin surprised?
The thing is, Rin says that magi have no use for souls. They can't be used for energy, they can't be shaped or changed.
F/sn Wrote:
Souls are only "Things to be studied" or "Things to be moved into containers."
It's incomprehensible not merely to suck them out, but also to collect them in a single place.
It's because a magus has no use for them even if one were to collect this inconvertable energy.
So how are players able to use [Souls] for making familiars? If it is normal to use souls, why is Rin surprised?