Mass Effect 3
- Thread starter Ordo
- Start date
Cosgrove said:
Ordo said:
Ladies and gentlemen I present Cerberus troops, on the Salarian homeworld...
Personally, I'm thinking some of their reaper tech went haywire and took command. Wouldn't be the first time.
Meh, Cerberus is the same organization that made Jack before they knew about the Reaper threat.
I think one of the closest analogs would be an American secret service agent giving the capability to make nukes to the KKK because they're going to use it against China (whom you have very good intel is going to invade).
I think one of the closest analogs would be an American secret service agent giving the capability to make nukes to the KKK because they're going to use it against China (whom you have very good intel is going to invade).
I took a second look at that new husks picture.
I think that new one is a mutated/modified husk based on a Batarian.
Look at the ridges/markings on the head. They look more like a Batarian than anything.
Then, there's the eyes. Yes, the Collectors had four eyes. So do the Batarians. Why modify/mutate extra eyes into something that already has four? Human husks didn't gain extra eyes.
I think that new one is a mutated/modified husk based on a Batarian.
Look at the ridges/markings on the head. They look more like a Batarian than anything.
Then, there's the eyes. Yes, the Collectors had four eyes. So do the Batarians. Why modify/mutate extra eyes into something that already has four? Human husks didn't gain extra eyes.
That's a shitty analogy. How about this one? You'd be stupid to trust Cerberus.
BUT LORD RAINE THE ILLUSIVE MAN DIDN'T KNOW
Yeah. He claimed. But then again, Jacob clearly outlined a situation in the Alliance in the very beginning of the game where Alliance born and Alliance bred humans did off-the-books work for the Alliance so the Alliance could get things done (like assassinations) without 'actually' having to do them. Their dirty laundry gets cleaned, and if shit ever goes south, they disavow all knowledge and say you're a rouge element.
What did the Illusive Man do when you pointed out all the evil shit Cerberus has done? Well, he said things had changed. And when you pressed the issue? He said he knew nothing about it and claimed they were rouge elements.
That's a hell of a familiar excuse, isn't it? Didn't we just hear that story about the Corsairs about five minutes before that? We did.
Fact: The Illusive Man handles the money and the direction of the organization. He's the one who sets up the projects, and he's the one who writes the checks. Practically speaking, it's pretty much impossible for a section of Cerberus to literally 'go rouge.' They would lose all access to their resources, and the rest of the organization would swoop in under Illusive Man's orders to crush them, because he knows who they are, where they live, what they look like, and exactly how to track them down. So unless they're all giganinjas and managed to set up a billion intergalactic lemonade stands while nobody was looking, the scenario claimed is pretty much impossible.
That only leaves one real explanation left. He knew, he funded it, and when shit went sour, he cut them loose. Hell, the entire Cerberus organization is founded on that. Look at how they're organized. Cells that know nothing about each other, have nothing to do with each other, and work independently from everyone else. The only one who knows everything that's going on is the Illusive Man. No one else exists who could corroborate any story or evidence. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, so if the left hand gets cut off one day, the head can feed the right hand whatever story it wants.
BUT LORD RAINE THE RECORDINGS ON JACK'S MISSION SAID THE ILLUSIVE MAN DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT
And the Illusive Man said when the mission was over that he was "disappointed that the Cerberus cleanup teams had apparently missed data logs."
Do note the important thing here. Cerberus, specifically Cerberus operatives under the control of the Illusive Man, got there before you, before anyone, and cleaned the place out from top to bottom. That means any and all evidence in that facility is potentially planted. Isn't it rather odd how the only logs left are the the exact ones that manage to completely vindicate and clear the Illusive Man? And isn't it odd that the ones they allegedly missed were on computer terminals sitting out in the open in major intersections of the building? What are the odds of that?
Way too long. Way, way too long.
BUT LORD RAINE AREN'T YOU JUST BIASED AGAINST CERBERUS?
Aren't you? They were planting Dragon's Teeth onto out-of-the-way colony worlds to observe the effects. They were sending out Rachnai into areas garrisoned with Alliance military personnel just to observe how the Rachnai fight. They planted fake distress beacons in the middle of Thresher nests just to gather data on them, at the expense of two entire companies of soldiers. They assassinated Admiral Kohaku and threw his body into a pen filled with husks just for the hell of it. They injected the acid venom of a Maw into a marine's blood "to see what would happen."
Are you seriously going to try and tell me that all of that was 'just rouge agents?' Either the Illusive Man is the most incompetent manager EVER, or he's lying out of both sides of his mouth at the same time, and trying to bullshit you for every last bit he can take you for.
The Illusive Man has intel detailed enough to know the exact measurements of every member of his organization. Are you seriously going to pretend that entire cells could go rouge and do these massive operations, and for him to not know anything about it?
To be blunt, I'm not even sure Wilson was a traitor. I think the entire thing was a setup by the Illusive Man, who was getting impatient that your reconstruction was taking so long while more and more human colonies were disappearing. I don't believe that the Illusive Man didn't know. He flat-out stated that Wilson was one of his most trusted operatives. I think that either Wilson was under orders to do it, with the intent of speeding up the process and giving you a trial-by-fire, or that he was always of that caliber, and the Illusive Man, knowing it, manipulated him into doing it, again for the purpose of speeding up the process and giving you a trial-by-fire. If it's the first one, arrangements were probably made to get Wilson off the station and hide him until everything was over with. The miscalculation was Miranda showing up when she did. The Illusive Man didn't want it to happen, but as he himself stated, "Miranda acted as I expected her to."
BUT LORD RAINE-
Hypothetical Opponent, Imma let you finish, but Word of God is with me on this one too. The Illusive Man, and I quote, "represents both the best and the absolute worst of humanity in one package." That means he's self-sacrificing, a patriot, and a man of his word. It also means he's a lying liar who lies lies, is willing to sacrifice as many lives as it takes to get what he wants, has no compunctions or moral boundaries he isn't willing to cross with impunity, and will cheerfully and without hesitation betray and screw-over anyone and anything that starts messing with him and his bottom line, up to and including entire species, the Citadel, the Council, the Alliance, his own organization, every last person under his command, and you, Commander Shepard.
"Why is the Illusive Man after Shepard in Mass Effect 3?"
Bitch, I'm surprised it took him this long.
BUT LORD RAINE THE ILLUSIVE MAN DIDN'T KNOW
Yeah. He claimed. But then again, Jacob clearly outlined a situation in the Alliance in the very beginning of the game where Alliance born and Alliance bred humans did off-the-books work for the Alliance so the Alliance could get things done (like assassinations) without 'actually' having to do them. Their dirty laundry gets cleaned, and if shit ever goes south, they disavow all knowledge and say you're a rouge element.
What did the Illusive Man do when you pointed out all the evil shit Cerberus has done? Well, he said things had changed. And when you pressed the issue? He said he knew nothing about it and claimed they were rouge elements.
That's a hell of a familiar excuse, isn't it? Didn't we just hear that story about the Corsairs about five minutes before that? We did.
Fact: The Illusive Man handles the money and the direction of the organization. He's the one who sets up the projects, and he's the one who writes the checks. Practically speaking, it's pretty much impossible for a section of Cerberus to literally 'go rouge.' They would lose all access to their resources, and the rest of the organization would swoop in under Illusive Man's orders to crush them, because he knows who they are, where they live, what they look like, and exactly how to track them down. So unless they're all giganinjas and managed to set up a billion intergalactic lemonade stands while nobody was looking, the scenario claimed is pretty much impossible.
That only leaves one real explanation left. He knew, he funded it, and when shit went sour, he cut them loose. Hell, the entire Cerberus organization is founded on that. Look at how they're organized. Cells that know nothing about each other, have nothing to do with each other, and work independently from everyone else. The only one who knows everything that's going on is the Illusive Man. No one else exists who could corroborate any story or evidence. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, so if the left hand gets cut off one day, the head can feed the right hand whatever story it wants.
BUT LORD RAINE THE RECORDINGS ON JACK'S MISSION SAID THE ILLUSIVE MAN DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT
And the Illusive Man said when the mission was over that he was "disappointed that the Cerberus cleanup teams had apparently missed data logs."
Do note the important thing here. Cerberus, specifically Cerberus operatives under the control of the Illusive Man, got there before you, before anyone, and cleaned the place out from top to bottom. That means any and all evidence in that facility is potentially planted. Isn't it rather odd how the only logs left are the the exact ones that manage to completely vindicate and clear the Illusive Man? And isn't it odd that the ones they allegedly missed were on computer terminals sitting out in the open in major intersections of the building? What are the odds of that?
Way too long. Way, way too long.
BUT LORD RAINE AREN'T YOU JUST BIASED AGAINST CERBERUS?
Aren't you? They were planting Dragon's Teeth onto out-of-the-way colony worlds to observe the effects. They were sending out Rachnai into areas garrisoned with Alliance military personnel just to observe how the Rachnai fight. They planted fake distress beacons in the middle of Thresher nests just to gather data on them, at the expense of two entire companies of soldiers. They assassinated Admiral Kohaku and threw his body into a pen filled with husks just for the hell of it. They injected the acid venom of a Maw into a marine's blood "to see what would happen."
Are you seriously going to try and tell me that all of that was 'just rouge agents?' Either the Illusive Man is the most incompetent manager EVER, or he's lying out of both sides of his mouth at the same time, and trying to bullshit you for every last bit he can take you for.
The Illusive Man has intel detailed enough to know the exact measurements of every member of his organization. Are you seriously going to pretend that entire cells could go rouge and do these massive operations, and for him to not know anything about it?
To be blunt, I'm not even sure Wilson was a traitor. I think the entire thing was a setup by the Illusive Man, who was getting impatient that your reconstruction was taking so long while more and more human colonies were disappearing. I don't believe that the Illusive Man didn't know. He flat-out stated that Wilson was one of his most trusted operatives. I think that either Wilson was under orders to do it, with the intent of speeding up the process and giving you a trial-by-fire, or that he was always of that caliber, and the Illusive Man, knowing it, manipulated him into doing it, again for the purpose of speeding up the process and giving you a trial-by-fire. If it's the first one, arrangements were probably made to get Wilson off the station and hide him until everything was over with. The miscalculation was Miranda showing up when she did. The Illusive Man didn't want it to happen, but as he himself stated, "Miranda acted as I expected her to."
BUT LORD RAINE-
Hypothetical Opponent, Imma let you finish, but Word of God is with me on this one too. The Illusive Man, and I quote, "represents both the best and the absolute worst of humanity in one package." That means he's self-sacrificing, a patriot, and a man of his word. It also means he's a lying liar who lies lies, is willing to sacrifice as many lives as it takes to get what he wants, has no compunctions or moral boundaries he isn't willing to cross with impunity, and will cheerfully and without hesitation betray and screw-over anyone and anything that starts messing with him and his bottom line, up to and including entire species, the Citadel, the Council, the Alliance, his own organization, every last person under his command, and you, Commander Shepard.
"Why is the Illusive Man after Shepard in Mass Effect 3?"
Bitch, I'm surprised it took him this long.
The Illusive man was likely going to use the trial to imprison you, then have you killed while trying to escape or have an 'in-Prision-agent' off you in a staged fight/riot/uprising. He just waited too long and the Repears moved in to quickly.
You know, I wonder if I can romance Samara in ME 3, we kind of hit things off well enough in two, and I'm perfectly willing to adopt. Lord knows there's going to be a LOT of orphans needing a good home after this one....
You know, I wonder if I can romance Samara in ME 3, we kind of hit things off well enough in two, and I'm perfectly willing to adopt. Lord knows there's going to be a LOT of orphans needing a good home after this one....
Adding to Raine's post. Cerberus is only interested in humanity becoming dominant no matter the cost. The only reason they even let Shepard get a crew of mixed races was because humans colonies where the ones vanishing and the Citadel races didn't give a damn.
Which is the problem in ME. Even if humanity saves the council's ass at the cost of their fleet, the Council is content to let untold numbers of humans vanish with little effort made to find out why.
Humanity is the only one trying to do anything. Sure there are certain members of the other races that believe and the Shadow Broker knew but the leadership of the races were content to keep the status quo.
Cerberus on the other hand, is worse. They're not just experimenting on other races, they're running tests on humans. They aren't even doing these tests in a manner thats safe for their own researchers. Cerberus was perfectly willing to attack the Quarian Flotilla in search of one escaped test subject. It was only due to the action of the people involved that the Illusive man didn't get his way.
It should be noted that the Cerberus attack influenced the Quarians to actively SEARCH FOR REAPERS (thinking they were just massive warships) in order to take their homeworld back from Geth.
Spoilers for the novel Mass Effect:Retribution Below
Cerberus is entirely goal oriented and doesn't give a damn how they achieve it. Letting them have the collector base after it was already proven they can't handle the amount of Reaper tech they gained in the novel Retribution, which takes place after ME2 and presumably before the Arrival dlc. The novel also makes it canon that whether or not you gave them the collector base, they still managed to salvage plenty of technology from it. With that tech, one of the first things they do is implant it in a human. Who promptly becomes a Reaper and goes on his own tour/killing bonanza. It gave insight into how Reapers think, yes. But the fact that it/he got free even though there were outside agents involved is whats a problem.
Oh and to top it off, they killed Aria's daughter while she was totally incapacitated. Yeah. It also doesn't help that the people at the core of Cerberus are hardcore racists. Like the kind that would rather shoot an alien in the head than even talk to them kind. The Asari are the only race even viewed as being 'acceptable' and even then they seem to be seen as little more than space-whores by Cerberus.
Which is the problem in ME. Even if humanity saves the council's ass at the cost of their fleet, the Council is content to let untold numbers of humans vanish with little effort made to find out why.
Humanity is the only one trying to do anything. Sure there are certain members of the other races that believe and the Shadow Broker knew but the leadership of the races were content to keep the status quo.
Cerberus on the other hand, is worse. They're not just experimenting on other races, they're running tests on humans. They aren't even doing these tests in a manner thats safe for their own researchers. Cerberus was perfectly willing to attack the Quarian Flotilla in search of one escaped test subject. It was only due to the action of the people involved that the Illusive man didn't get his way.
It should be noted that the Cerberus attack influenced the Quarians to actively SEARCH FOR REAPERS (thinking they were just massive warships) in order to take their homeworld back from Geth.
Spoilers for the novel Mass Effect:Retribution Below
Cerberus is entirely goal oriented and doesn't give a damn how they achieve it. Letting them have the collector base after it was already proven they can't handle the amount of Reaper tech they gained in the novel Retribution, which takes place after ME2 and presumably before the Arrival dlc. The novel also makes it canon that whether or not you gave them the collector base, they still managed to salvage plenty of technology from it. With that tech, one of the first things they do is implant it in a human. Who promptly becomes a Reaper and goes on his own tour/killing bonanza. It gave insight into how Reapers think, yes. But the fact that it/he got free even though there were outside agents involved is whats a problem.
Oh and to top it off, they killed Aria's daughter while she was totally incapacitated. Yeah. It also doesn't help that the people at the core of Cerberus are hardcore racists. Like the kind that would rather shoot an alien in the head than even talk to them kind. The Asari are the only race even viewed as being 'acceptable' and even then they seem to be seen as little more than space-whores by Cerberus.
While you do have generally good points in the rest of your post, you have to remember this is a game. It's the same reason all turians look alike. (though the stated reason is that humans are actually surprisingly genetically diverse, and Turian similarity is actually the norm). The medium has limitations, and one of those limitations is that plot points have to be in areas reachable by the player.
A game that goes to incredible lengths to justify and provide explanation for it's gamey-ness. There are essays in-game dedicated to justifying everything from Omnitools to Mass Effect fields to why the hell your guns can fire forever. They even justify why you suddenly need ammo in ME2 (it's not ammo, they're heat-dampeners. Your guns still have nigh-infinite ammunition. It's just that they can now fire 'faster and harder' because you can manually sink the heat instead of trying to manage the heat buildup, which slows down your rate of fire).
If it was a lesser game, I wouldn't have made the point. But it's not. This is a game where the dev team really does think of everything, and they do everything in their power to justify every last bit of it. It shows in earlier works, too, like KotOR and Planescape: Torment. It's become something of a hallmark of their games, a mark that I, for one, greatly appreciate.
In any other game, by any other team, it wouldn't matter. But in this game, it does. It matters a lot.
If it was a lesser game, I wouldn't have made the point. But it's not. This is a game where the dev team really does think of everything, and they do everything in their power to justify every last bit of it. It shows in earlier works, too, like KotOR and Planescape: Torment. It's become something of a hallmark of their games, a mark that I, for one, greatly appreciate.
In any other game, by any other team, it wouldn't matter. But in this game, it does. It matters a lot.
These are all damn good points Raine. I'd also like to add blatantly manipulating Shepard upon rez by slapping Cerberus logos on just about everything you own and the horrendous amount of bullshit that they try to feed you as you "escape" from the Lazarous Project.
I'm not saying TIM's innocent, or even has anyone or anything's best interests in heart besides his own; just wondering if you get some slack for going quisling.
I'm not saying TIM's innocent, or even has anyone or anything's best interests in heart besides his own; just wondering if you get some slack for going quisling.
BEHOLD! A dev diary on creating Garrus with our first look at his ME 3 incarnation
<a href='http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2011/04/22/mass-effect-3-creating-garrus.aspx' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Creating Garrus</a>
Also, some evasive answers in a Q&A session.
<a href='http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2011/04/21/mass-effect-a-q-amp-a-for-hardcore-fans.aspx?PostPageIndex=1' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Hardcore Q&A</a>
<a href='http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2011/04/22/mass-effect-3-creating-garrus.aspx' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Creating Garrus</a>
Also, some evasive answers in a Q&A session.
<a href='http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2011/04/21/mass-effect-a-q-amp-a-for-hardcore-fans.aspx?PostPageIndex=1' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Hardcore Q&A</a>
My main problem with that is that there's other segments which adhere to this gameplay rule, which have no explanation. Why does that one guy at the beginning leave all his personal logs out in easily accessible computers?
For that matter, why do scientists in the middle of going mad/fighting off a zombie curse do the same?
This is an example of gameplay and story not meshing right. Until Bioware comes out with an explanation for people leaving personal diaries on public computers, throughout the whole galaxy that is.
And it's not like they're perfect with the existing explanation. The thermal clips for example had such a huge hole in them at the beginning (IIRC it might have gotten explained away much later), in that you can't just let your gun cool off on it's own to regain ammo. Considering how many people were wondering this at launch, one has to wonder why Bioware didn't catch it, or if they did, did they just say "fuck it"?
Or take for example advanced weapon training. After finding an assault rifle on a ship, my Adept shepard is suddenly proficient enough at using assault rifles. But he certainly can't find the superior in almost all ways assault rifle sitting right next to the kind of crappy one he picked up.
I could go all day shooting holes in the gameplay/story elements of the games, but the point is: Bioware does try to justify some things, however they aren't perfect at it, nor do they justify everything gameplay related.
For that matter, why do scientists in the middle of going mad/fighting off a zombie curse do the same?
This is an example of gameplay and story not meshing right. Until Bioware comes out with an explanation for people leaving personal diaries on public computers, throughout the whole galaxy that is.
And it's not like they're perfect with the existing explanation. The thermal clips for example had such a huge hole in them at the beginning (IIRC it might have gotten explained away much later), in that you can't just let your gun cool off on it's own to regain ammo. Considering how many people were wondering this at launch, one has to wonder why Bioware didn't catch it, or if they did, did they just say "fuck it"?
Or take for example advanced weapon training. After finding an assault rifle on a ship, my Adept shepard is suddenly proficient enough at using assault rifles. But he certainly can't find the superior in almost all ways assault rifle sitting right next to the kind of crappy one he picked up.
I could go all day shooting holes in the gameplay/story elements of the games, but the point is: Bioware does try to justify some things, however they aren't perfect at it, nor do they justify everything gameplay related.
So if it's not done to the absolute and utter limit everywhere, it's not valid?
Um, no.
Then maybe you should try harder. Most things can be explained if you actually bother to try.
Williams? Possibly to lead you around by the nose. Then again, the entire project is supposed to be ultrasuperdoubledip top-secret, and everyone in the Lazarus Project seems to have familial closeness, so it's possible that they just left that stuff lying around because. There shouldn't be a reason to keep everything locked up tight. Everyone inside is trusted, everyone outside is ignorant of it.
Um, no.
Then maybe you should try harder. Most things can be explained if you actually bother to try.
Williams? Possibly to lead you around by the nose. Then again, the entire project is supposed to be ultrasuperdoubledip top-secret, and everyone in the Lazarus Project seems to have familial closeness, so it's possible that they just left that stuff lying around because. There shouldn't be a reason to keep everything locked up tight. Everyone inside is trusted, everyone outside is ignorant of it.
If your point is that the dev team prides itself on explaining away all these little details, then several details that are unexplained (and one major one, which you completely ignored) undermine your point.
Anyways you supplying explanations for the dev team, that they don't actually put in the game, in no way means those explanations are canon, as much as you wish they were.
Williams is a traitor in the family. He's going to need a reason to leave journals in public computers, especially ones that call his boss a bitch.
That's just not good work place politics, or family politics.
Anyways you supplying explanations for the dev team, that they don't actually put in the game, in no way means those explanations are canon, as much as you wish they were.
Williams is a traitor in the family. He's going to need a reason to leave journals in public computers, especially ones that call his boss a bitch.
That's just not good work place politics, or family politics.
Jacob tells the Illusive man to his face that he dosen't trust him, and will turn on him if he goes to far. Wilson leaving behind a few logs like calling TIM a bastard wouldn't cause anyone to bat an eye.
You think Miranda cares what he thinks of her. As long as he does his job, Wilson can hate her with the intensity of a star for all she cares.
and those details would be....?
You think Miranda cares what he thinks of her. As long as he does his job, Wilson can hate her with the intensity of a star for all she cares.
and those details would be....?
I don't have time to deal with Raine's sidekick if all Raine's sidekick is going to do is blindly quote my posts and not bother to read the whole argument.
So read the whole argument for a list of details that are unexplained, or were unexplained at launch. I mean, this is already a stupid argument, all I'm saying is that Bioware probably didn't think of half the things that Raine says they did, which I guess is an insult so egregious that it bears intense scrutiny.
I mean dear god, a game developer compromising the story a bit for gameplay reasons? UNHEARD OF.
So read the whole argument for a list of details that are unexplained, or were unexplained at launch. I mean, this is already a stupid argument, all I'm saying is that Bioware probably didn't think of half the things that Raine says they did, which I guess is an insult so egregious that it bears intense scrutiny.
I mean dear god, a game developer compromising the story a bit for gameplay reasons? UNHEARD OF.
Nah, I devalue your imput because it seems to me that you're mindlessly agreeing with another person. And also because I already gave a list. If you want to further the discussion, why don't you actually read the argument and quote the relevant post, instead of just mindlessly agreeing with said other person.