Nanoha Vivid Discussion

[Hoki]

Einheart wanders around picking fights in the middle of the night; I was like "where the fuck are this girl's parents", but I guess that never came up, it was just a way to set up a kung-fu rivalry with Vivio.

She's the reincarnation of Hegemon Ingevalt, which implies even more questions about her background, like "is Jail her godfather, like she's a success from his reincarnation experiments or something? Or is Einheart also some kinda cyborg?" Nope, we never find out, it's just a way to make her Vivio's kung-fu rival in the last lifetime or whatever, so we get that homoerotic subtext going on too.

Are you confused with the terms "reincarnation" and "resurrection?" Yes, Einhart can be considered Klaus Ingvalt's reincarnation, because technically, she remembers all the skills and knowledge of her ancestor. However, to be a "reincarnation" of somebody, you must first be born in another time in the future from the time your "past self" died, and not be a result of some experiment intended to bring a dead person back from the living. Einhart came from the line of Klaus Ingvalt and just happens to be the one to inherit his memories.

To "resurrect" somebody is to bring them back from the dead as a living being. A resurrected person is the same person that had died, like what Jail did to Zest in StrikerS through cloning. If Einhart is a product of Jail's experiments to resurrect Hegemon Ingvalt, the first difference would be their sex and age; Klaus being an adult male and all.

Just clearing things up for you.

 

[daniel_gudman]

...Okay, let's talk about that.

"Reincarnation", is defined as the rebirth of a soul in another body. According to etymonline, the first usage was in 1858, and was an assembly of "re" + "incarnation", where "incarnation" is from the Latinate christian term "incaro" meaning "in flesh", referring to being made flesh by God's Act.

Meanwhile "Resurrection" is the act of restoring a dead person to life, which came to Middle English by way of the Normans from the Latin verb resurgere, "to rise again", and also has a strongly Christian context.

I absolutely guarantee that I am not confused about what the meaning of the words I used was.

So if it's what word is best to describe

"A SPACE WIZARD that reaches through space/time to WRENCH A SOUL FROM THE AFTERLIFE and STUFF IT into a CLONE BODY (that might or not be a CYBORG) using the TERRIBLY FORBIDDEN SPACE MAGIC developed by YOURS TRULY and my INSANE COWORKER that has been a major plot point all the way since SEASON ONE!"

Then yeah I pick reincarnation because it's more precise on account of that "STUFF IT into a CLONE BODY" thing going on. (Really I wanted to use something like "cyber-transmigration" but that's a little too cyberpunk, or maybe "arcano-transmigration" but that's a little tortured, and anyway the distinction between "reincarnation" and "transmigration" is getting pretty technical at disambiguating inside Hindu-descended theology, so I was already beginning to flirt with jargonism.)

But all of that is mistaking the finger for the moon.

In the first place, I'm not comparing her to Zest, who was killed and then reanimated, zombie-like, somehow, by Jail as like a lark. I'm comparing her to Viveo, who was cloned as a successor of Saint King Olvie by somebody in the TSAB, and that somebody might have been Jail, so he was the name I reached for as conservation in characters. (Also the red-headed shota recognized her as the same kind as him, as someone Jail said, "I can rebuild them, better than before. I have the technology!")

"Look at this gun!" The mangaka said, holding up a gun. It was chrome and very shiny, and probably discharged very impressive BEAMU. "I bet you could shoot somebody IMPORTANT with a gun this cool!"

That said, the author hung the shiny gun on the mantle . Normally you would expect a mantle to be over a fireplace, but no, the mantle was sitting smack in a blank piece of wall, there was nothing that came before it. Then and slapped his hands together in satisfaction.

With an awkward pause, he looked around with a brittle smile. His eyes darted back and forth.

"Right!" The mangaka said. "Who wants a tournament arc?"

I'm not complaining about a story where SPACE WIZARDS DO MAGIC, I'm complaining that in a story where SPACE WIZARDS DO MAGIC all of the MAGICAL SPACE PHENOMENA are unimaginative and boring.

 

[Hoki]

*sigh* I've had my fill of arguments for the month, so I'll just leave things as they are. I'm sure somebody would come up with a better response anyway.

Thanks for the trivia though, that I'll keep in mind.

 

[Kaijo]

Zest in StrikerS was a clone. One that was extremely close to the original.

Einhart is a descendent, as far as we know so far. Not a clone, and not any sort of cyber or weirdly arcane magical things going on. As far as we know. The only thing to it so far, is that she has some link to Claus wherein she feels some guilt and regret from his life. So, *so far*, she's not a reincarnation, either. She very definitely asserts herself as NOT Claus. They could still go that route, but they haven't so far. Yeah, they haven't mentioned her parents so far, but could be that she's an orphan.

 

[Rising Dragon]

What Einhart says on the matter is that her situation is not unique; that other descendants of Klaus (presumably, those before her) have experienced what she has, along with inheriting Klaus' looks.

 

[daniel_gudman]

...so she's has no weird arcane magic going on, but somehow, inexplicably, she has a psychic link where she can view the memories of her ancestor and reproduce his skills. How is that not a "weird arcane thing"???

If it's just some inheritable thing, shouldn't one of her parents be in the exact same boat???

That kinda crappy writing bothered me.

 

[Nanya]

...so she's has no weird arcane magic going on, but somehow, inexplicably, she has a psychic link where she can view the memories of her ancestor and reproduce his skills. How is that not a "weird arcane thing"???

If it's just some inheritable thing, shouldn't one of her parents be in the exact same boat???

That kinda crappy writing bothered me.

The trope you are looking for is "Lamarck Was Right" or "Identical Ancestor"

 

[Rising Dragon]

What it most likely is is some genetic modification running through her family. And as I said, she's mentioned that it's happened to other people in her lineage. Not always, from how she talks about it, but she's not the first whose inherited his memories and looks.

 

[Kaijo]

She's only experienced it through dreams. The term you are looking for, is "genetic memory." And it can skip generations, just like any other genetic trait. Also, like I said, the fact that we haven't heard of her parents, could very well mean she's an orphan or a clone. Either way, she's on her own.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Either way, she's on her own.

Only if the artist continues in this trend. Realistically, there's no way that a system of government would allow a child like her to live on her own.

She has to have some relatives or (il)legal guardians.

 

[Hoki]

Either way, she's on her own.

Only if the artist continues in this trend. Realistically, there's no way that a system of government would allow a child like her to live on her own.

She has to have some relatives or (il)legal guardians.

If we follow similar examples on other anime, then yes she most definitely has relatives somewhere, be they second or third degree relatives, who pay for her education. That, or being the descendant of a Belkan ruler, she must be really minted, just not as explicitly shown as Victoria and her castle.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Doesn't matter how much money you have, it's not kosher for a kid that young to live on her own.

The alternative explanation of distant parents is also immensely unsatisfying given how much of an important targat Einhart is.

I mean, is it really plausible that no one has been paying attention to the descendents of Ingvalt, one of the most prominent rulers of the fracturing Belkan empire? There ought to have been at least rumors about how Ingvalt's descendents inherited his color, memories and powers, and Jail should have been looking for her.

More evidence against the lack of adult supervision is the fact that she should NOT have been aware of Ixpellia's existence or Vivio's status as a clone of Olivie, seeing as how both of those things would be STATE SECRETS. Therefore, her unknown benefactor must also be her informant.

And her informant would have known how she would respond to this information, so the informant is also a schemer who intended to have Reborn Belkan Lords clash.

 

[Nanya]

You MAY be giving ViVid too much credit there. Who knows?

 

[Hoki]

Doesn't matter how much money you have, it's not kosher for a kid that young to live on her own.

The alternative explanation of distant parents is also immensely unsatisfying given how much of an important targat Einhart is.

I mean, is it really plausible that no one has been paying attention to the descendents of Ingvalt, one of the most prominent rulers of the fracturing Belkan empire? There ought to have been at least rumors about how Ingvalt's descendents inherited his color, memories and powers, and Jail should have been looking for her.

My best guesses are that Jail had no interest in them or searching for descendants of Belkan rulers would've taken too much time, something his then bosses would not have given him a lot of. After all, he only needed one particular Belkan ruler to move a lost superweapon, and that said ruler also happened to be the strongest of them all.

More evidence against the lack of adult supervision is the fact that she should NOT have been aware of Ixpellia's existence or Vivio's status as a clone of Olivie, seeing as how both of those things would be STATE SECRETS. Therefore, her unknown benefactor must also be her informant.

And her informant would have known how she would respond to this information, so the informant is also a schemer who intended to have Reborn Belkan Lords clash.

If this were true, I guess her informant/caretaker's plan didn't quite turn out right, as Einhart and Vivio became friends. Again, I would guess that her knowledge of Vivio's identity stems from the fact that she's Olivie's clone, and seeing her must've triggered memories, implying at least, that she saw Vivio somewhere before actually meeting her. I'm lost when it comes to Ixy's case though.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

You MAY be giving ViVid too much credit there. Who knows?

I WAS giving Vivid too much credit, when the first couple of chapters were all we had.

As more and more of the series became available, it became clearer and clearer that the writer is a TOTAL DUMBASS.

 

[Kaijo]

Considering Tsuzuki had Hayate on her own in Movie 2nd A's, I wouldn't put it past him to have Einhart on her own, either. In Einhart's case, though, we can almost handwave it because kids are treated differently on Mid. They are allowed to enlist in the army, after all, and Fate was even able to become guardian of Caro, despite technically being under age. Lindy did adopt Fate, but that can also be seen as Fate needing a mother person in her life, and the fact that Fate was part of a criminal act, and needed a guardian to oversee her probation; Lindy probably stepped in to take that role as Fate's guardian.

Long story short; until they show us otherwise, I am presuming Einhart to be on her own. Still, I would have expected the Nakajima's to question her on her family, even if only from a curiosity standpoint. So this question should have been answered.

 

[Rising Dragon]

We have seen the interior of her residence, and no one but her was in it at the time. It's also possible she moved out from her family on account of her memory issues. Ultimately it doesn't seem like her parentage is really all that important to the story--we haven't seen Corona, Rio, or Miura's parents, either.

 

[toraneko]

2) Page 16. Another jam-all-your-toes kick. This is the first panel where I saw someone smackin' their shin into something. That hurts so bad. This happens a lot in Vivid, even though it's so painful. I guess they're wearing magic shin guards? It really drew my attention.

Just thought I'd address this point - this kind of kick is borrowed straight from real life. That's a Muay Thai-inspired kick, where the knee is locked and the hips are swiveled to put the entire lower body's momentum behind the kick.

You're right that it hurts... at first. Muay Thai practitioners basically torture themselves during their early training years by kicking solid things (like trees) with their shins, until the shin bone grows large and dense enough that it can be used to kick at full force without threat of breakage. This is similar to the results of practice towards brick-breaking demonstrations in other disciplines - again, real-life stuff.

Also worth noting, that kick is borrowed by MMA fighters and kickboxers of various circuits, since it is a very effective means of striking at beyond arm-length distance. Strike Arts being essentially the Nanohaverse's answer to MMA tournaments, well, the similarities are not coincidental, I'd say.

edit: Though, there is a bit of bad panel-pacing going on here; if Nove started out from the position she was in during the previous panel, she'd be on the wrong foot to throw a kick like that.

 

[daniel_gudman]

The part I was criticizing was the foot position; if you don't pull your toes back, you'll jam them, or break them. If you google image search, you'll see that everybody pulls the foot back so the instep on top of the foot is the striking surface, not the toes, you don't even have to take my word for it. Well, from the beginning, the instep is the primary weapon and the shin is secondary. (Well, if you're hitting with the ball or the heel the foot position would be different).

Also don't lock your knee on a (turn-kick / roundhouse kick / whatever); you need to tuck the leg in tight when bringing the leg up and then you kinda whip it out with a knee rotation. If you do it straight-legged the power goes down and it's so slow it's a joke. Even a cut kick where you just jam their approach needs to be tucked up.

In the end... what bugged me was that the author was clearly trying to draw a roundhouse kick, but there was an important detail smack in the foreground that was wrong, so I got distracted from the plot. It's at the level of a pet peeve, but I can't not notice it.

 

[toraneko]

Ah, I see now. Yeah, I can agree about the toes. Lots of silly mistakes like that happen in ViVid, and with that in mind, the decision to make this a tournament-fighting manga comes off as especially bad.

 

[Nanya]

Like I said before, the tournament arc was why I stopped with ViVid.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Considering Tsuzuki had Hayate on her own in Movie 2nd A's, I wouldn't put it past him to have Einhart on her own, either.

Except that just kind of reinforces my point, since Graham WAS a scheming schemer up to schemes. Except in his case, he made sure Hayate wouldn't need to adopted so that fewer people would miss her when he froze her.

In Einhart's case, I'd wager it's so there are fewer people who might influence Einhart's worldview or actions, at least until she gets entangled with the new Sankt Kaiser and her family.

...Ugh, none of it makes sense, this sucks.

But then, I've pretty much declared personal non-continuity on everything post-A's. StrikerS, Vivid and Force exist only as raw materials to use for the purpose of making better fan works, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Andarion]

They are allowed to enlist in the army, after all, and Fate was even able to become guardian of Caro, despite technically being under age. Lindy did adopt Fate, but that can also be seen as Fate needing a mother person in her life, and the fact that Fate was part of a criminal act, and needed a guardian to oversee her probation; Lindy probably stepped in to take that role as Fate's guardian.

Actually from what I remember it was Lindy who became Caro's legal guardian because Fate was too young... no [checked] it was Erio but the argument stands nonetheless.

 

[Kaijo]

Except that just kind of reinforces my point, since Graham WAS a scheming schemer up to schemes. Except in his case, he made sure Hayate wouldn't need to adopted so that fewer people would miss her when he froze her.

In Einhart's case, I'd wager it's so there are fewer people who might influence Einhart's worldview or actions, at least until she gets entangled with the new Sankt Kaiser and her family.

In the A's series, you are right, Graham was there to make sure Hayate stayed alone. In the A's movie, however, she is alone... just because. One of the many plot holes the movie has. So, my point does stand: Tsuzuki made someone be alone before, so there is the distinct possibility he's doing it again.

Actually from what I remember it was Lindy who became Caro's legal guardian because Fate was too young... no [checked] it was Erio but the argument stands nonetheless.

Yes, it was Erio whom Lindy became the official guardian of(when Fate was 15). But Fate picked up Caro at 16, one year later. And Chrono was an officer at 15. Mid lets their kids get away with much more at much younger ages. That's the bigger point I was making.

 

[Andarion]

Yes, it was Erio whom Lindy became the official guardian of(when Fate was 15). But Fate picked up Caro at 16, one year later. And Chrono was an officer at 15. Mid lets their kids get away with much more at much younger ages. That's the bigger point I was making.

The thing is that Fate probably Wasn't underage when she adopted Caro like you said. You are operating with Earth legal terms, for all we know Fate was considered an adult at age of 16. Not to mention that 18=adulthood is a fairly new "discovery" among humans. In fact Mid-Childa may have a completely different approach to the concept of adulthood and legal stuff concerning that...

I have a little theory. If we go with "Movies as propaganda materials made by TSAB" then Hayate living alone makes sense. TSAB would prefer to keep quiet about Graham's involvement in the whole thing.