Nanoha Vivid Discussion
- Thread starter Hoki
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This is true. But my point was that Mid gives it's children much more responsibility and leeway if they want it. So Einhart living on her own wouldn't be out of the question in that society.
It's a Fan theory that has come up a few times before, but there are a couple of problems. For one, Tsuzuki has outright said it is an AU, and not part of the main continuity. Also, if you were to accept that fan theory, you'd have to accept that the TSAB is real, because the characters market the movie directly to people in Japan, and answer questions from real life fans.
When you watch enough anime, you'll see it often enough, where the characters talk about their upcoming movie and tell viewers which theaters it will be in and when it will be coming out.
There were definitely people on Mid Childa, but it didn't become a major planet until the TSAB decided to place it's ground branch there.
It's a Fan theory that has come up a few times before, but there are a couple of problems. For one, Tsuzuki has outright said it is an AU, and not part of the main continuity. Also, if you were to accept that fan theory, you'd have to accept that the TSAB is real, because the characters market the movie directly to people in Japan, and answer questions from real life fans.
When you watch enough anime, you'll see it often enough, where the characters talk about their upcoming movie and tell viewers which theaters it will be in and when it will be coming out.
There were definitely people on Mid Childa, but it didn't become a major planet until the TSAB decided to place it's ground branch there.
Indeed, it's probably a leftover from the Great Wars period. Back in those days kids had to grow up and mature fast to fill in the roles of the adults who died or were away. Also they could be used as child soldiers. There might be also something to the theory that either Mid/Belka kids mature much faster or that magic capacity interferes with natural processes and quickens the mental and emotional development.
Like the Megami Sound Stages? Well I wouldn't have... too much against TSAB existing... then again the life on Earth is nervous enough without the threat of of a lost logia blowing us all up XD
Actually... correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Belkan magic system an offshoot of the Mid-Childan? At least that's what I remember reading...
Like the Megami Sound Stages? Well I wouldn't have... too much against TSAB existing... then again the life on Earth is nervous enough without the threat of of a lost logia blowing us all up XD
Actually... correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Belkan magic system an offshoot of the Mid-Childan? At least that's what I remember reading...
The prevailing fan theory is that when you have kids who can easily cause mass destruction if they so choose, you are better off training those kids from a young age and giving them responsibility. That would tend to help teach them to keep their powers in check, and use them to benefit mankind. Which helps explain why the Bureau is so big on redemption and reforming people where they can, instead of just locking them up for life.
Close. There isn't a whole lot of information on the histories of the various styles, but there is an Ancient Belka style and a Modern Belka style, along with the Mid CHilda style. You can read up on some differences on the Nanoha wikia. It contains all the info we have currently.
But basically, in the past, ancient Belkan magic was generally preferred, until the Mid style came into prominence later.
Close. There isn't a whole lot of information on the histories of the various styles, but there is an Ancient Belka style and a Modern Belka style, along with the Mid CHilda style. You can read up on some differences on the Nanoha wikia. It contains all the info we have currently.
But basically, in the past, ancient Belkan magic was generally preferred, until the Mid style came into prominence later.
Mhm I'm kinda torn at this... on one hand we have people like Caro or Erio who unleashed their latent abilities (summoning dragons and attacking people with lightning) but on the other we have ones like Nanoha who despite considerable magical potential did not start using any abilities until she was educated by Yuuno. Perhaps trauma is a trigger and the magic only awakens in the moment of great stress but if no such trigger appears the magic remains inactivated. Or perhaps there are just some people who spontaneously active their abilities and some who would live their lives without magic unless trained.
Edit. Well my point is that Unless the kids were educated they would Not becoming city-busting monsters.
Mhm thank you very much.
Edit. Well my point is that Unless the kids were educated they would Not becoming city-busting monsters.
Mhm thank you very much.
Well that's more or less my point. Initially I thought that the abilities remain inactivated Unless such a person is taught how to use magic. But Caro and Erio are exceptions. Unless Caro received some instructions about How to use her magic then, her abilites to summon dragons would be spontaneous and subconscious. As for Erio, yes he was being experimented on for several years so it's really hard to tell HOW that screwed him up....
Essentially my point is that without proper training and education no kid would gain a city-busting power because their powers would simply remain inactive.
Essentially my point is that without proper training and education no kid would gain a city-busting power because their powers would simply remain inactive.
Oh, I was going by the anime, where Erio's implication was that was a government facility.
But... let's look at this....
Random guys JUST HAPPENED to find out this his super-well-connected parents had their dead child cloned using the Bureau's TOP SECRET BLACK TECHNOLOGY, and they JUST HAPPENED to have access to this lavish experimental facility to bury the kid in, and they JUST HAPPENED to have enough leverage to force said parents out of the picture?
Somehow I think it's simpler and more likely that they were just another "highly deniable" or even straight-up rogue TSAB group, like all the big bads or each season turned out to be.
Well, if not, it's another crappy retcon where the staff had an ineresting story, but tried to reduce it to "good guys" and "bad guys". For a show that keeps ripping off character designs from "real" robo, the writers sure are allergic to moral complexity.
But... let's look at this....
Random guys JUST HAPPENED to find out this his super-well-connected parents had their dead child cloned using the Bureau's TOP SECRET BLACK TECHNOLOGY, and they JUST HAPPENED to have access to this lavish experimental facility to bury the kid in, and they JUST HAPPENED to have enough leverage to force said parents out of the picture?
Somehow I think it's simpler and more likely that they were just another "highly deniable" or even straight-up rogue TSAB group, like all the big bads or each season turned out to be.
Well, if not, it's another crappy retcon where the staff had an ineresting story, but tried to reduce it to "good guys" and "bad guys". For a show that keeps ripping off character designs from "real" robo, the writers sure are allergic to moral complexity.
I doubt it was a retcon, since it was all out at relatively the same amount of time. That said, Project F isn't the Bureau's top secret black technology (though Jail did start it). The project was open-sourced by Jail and thus the information was out there, and Precia was the one to complete it. Furthermore, the Bureau isn't the actual government of Mid-Childa as far as we know--it's a military-based police force, whose ground branch is based on Mid-Childa, but they're not the rulers there. In fact, the Saint Church is practically a country on Mid-Childa, and aren't controlled by the Bureau directly. So yes. It could've been the government that took Erio--but that doesn't mean the Bureau did.
Finding out about Erio probably wasn't TOO hard. After all, he DID die before he was brought back via Project F.
Now, there still had to be time between Erio's death and being cloned, so, certificate of death issued, which would be public record...
Yeah, even if you could get someone to cover it up, we all know that things can always be found if one's willing to look.
Now, there still had to be time between Erio's death and being cloned, so, certificate of death issued, which would be public record...
Yeah, even if you could get someone to cover it up, we all know that things can always be found if one's willing to look.
Nothing random about it. Cloning is illegal, so in order for Erio's parents to do it, they would have had to turn to high level illegal help. They bought a clone off an illegal researcher. Some time later, another illegal type turns up that wants their kid to experiment on... and you think that is coincidence? I see it as "Sure, let's help this couple clone their magic-using kid, and see if he can manifest equal or greater powers. We'll let them raise it for a bit, then reclaim it for study." Erio was kept by illegal types, and was later rescued by official Bureau forces and put into an orphanage.
Remember, Jail had his fingers in many different research pies, supported by the brain council. Illegal stuff. He outright says he developed the cloning technology that Precia perfected (though I suspect he merely was acquainted with the researcher(s) and data regarding cloning)... perhaps Erio was an attempt to duplicate what Precia did with Fate. He might not have been the only one, but maybe the most successful attempt.
And in case it wasn't clear, the leverage the guys had over the parents, was that they knew Erio was cloned. Unless they surrendered the kid, the implication was that the group would tell the Bureau and the parents would be off to prison or something. For better or worse, the parents backed down.
So, you're partly right that a shadowy group was responsible for Erio, but there is moral complexity in Jail's overall argument: that the TSAB is needlessly controlling lost logia and suppressing technologies. It's an argument with pros and cons, and no right answer.
Remember, Jail had his fingers in many different research pies, supported by the brain council. Illegal stuff. He outright says he developed the cloning technology that Precia perfected (though I suspect he merely was acquainted with the researcher(s) and data regarding cloning)... perhaps Erio was an attempt to duplicate what Precia did with Fate. He might not have been the only one, but maybe the most successful attempt.
And in case it wasn't clear, the leverage the guys had over the parents, was that they knew Erio was cloned. Unless they surrendered the kid, the implication was that the group would tell the Bureau and the parents would be off to prison or something. For better or worse, the parents backed down.
So, you're partly right that a shadowy group was responsible for Erio, but there is moral complexity in Jail's overall argument: that the TSAB is needlessly controlling lost logia and suppressing technologies. It's an argument with pros and cons, and no right answer.
No, it really isn't.
The TSAB has banned research on newborns and children. On those poor souls who cannot give consent to be part of experiments with horrible potential for failure.
Making clones by definition is toying with the lives of newborns and children, since the process can go horribly wrong. Sure, you can eventually perfect the technology so that there's no risk whatsoever, but what about all of the twisted, vegetative failures along the way?
Before Presea perfected Project F into Project Fate, there was no way to give accelerated-age clones the memories and mental development necessary for them to FUNCTION. They were babies in adult bodies. That's HORRIBLE.
I think in the StrikerS Sound Stages, Erio contemplates just how SUCCESSFUL Vivio's mental development is, and how many of her predecessor sisters "failed" before her.
Combat cyborgs are the same... but WORSE.
The TSAB has no problem with cybernetic prosthetics or cyborgs. They don't have the medical technology to clone new limbs or organs, so they use robot parts. But those limbs can only be made so strong without outpacing and stressing the organic ones.
In order to make cyborgs truly suitable for combat, the cybernetics have to be so pervasive that only a genetically-engineered child could survive the adaptation. This is even worse than the cloning experiments above, because not only are you playing with lives, you're making children with the intent of weaponizing them. You don't go to the VERY expensive trouble of creating girls like Ginga and Subaru just to give them a choice of a non-dangerous lifestyle; even if you do, they KNOW they were made for combat, so that's going to influence their self-image and choices.
At least with artificial mage clones, their magical potential can thereotically be put to non-combat use. That's harder to do with a gun built into your hand.
The TSAB has banned research on newborns and children. On those poor souls who cannot give consent to be part of experiments with horrible potential for failure.
Making clones by definition is toying with the lives of newborns and children, since the process can go horribly wrong. Sure, you can eventually perfect the technology so that there's no risk whatsoever, but what about all of the twisted, vegetative failures along the way?
Before Presea perfected Project F into Project Fate, there was no way to give accelerated-age clones the memories and mental development necessary for them to FUNCTION. They were babies in adult bodies. That's HORRIBLE.
I think in the StrikerS Sound Stages, Erio contemplates just how SUCCESSFUL Vivio's mental development is, and how many of her predecessor sisters "failed" before her.
Combat cyborgs are the same... but WORSE.
The TSAB has no problem with cybernetic prosthetics or cyborgs. They don't have the medical technology to clone new limbs or organs, so they use robot parts. But those limbs can only be made so strong without outpacing and stressing the organic ones.
In order to make cyborgs truly suitable for combat, the cybernetics have to be so pervasive that only a genetically-engineered child could survive the adaptation. This is even worse than the cloning experiments above, because not only are you playing with lives, you're making children with the intent of weaponizing them. You don't go to the VERY expensive trouble of creating girls like Ginga and Subaru just to give them a choice of a non-dangerous lifestyle; even if you do, they KNOW they were made for combat, so that's going to influence their self-image and choices.
At least with artificial mage clones, their magical potential can thereotically be put to non-combat use. That's harder to do with a gun built into your hand.
Close, but cloning isn't inherently bad. For instance, we can make clones today. The process is similar to natural child-bearing. We just take DNA out of what we want to clone, put it into an egg cell (and sperm cell), and implant it in a womb. There are services that will clone your pet.
So what is the moral argument against cloning your dead son, ala Erio? You simply create a new life, like you would if you had sex and got a woman pregnant normally. No child has a choice as to how they are born, or whether they are created in the first place. One might say, then, that it is immoral to have children since they have no choice.
Is it the tinkering we have a problem with? We can scan for genetic defects in a very early embryo or fetus, and to some degree, tinker with them to fix those defects. What about improvements, then? Soon, we'll have the technology to give a child better hearing or thinking processes, or enhanced reflexes. Star Trek dealt with this issue to, if you watched DS9. Should we ban all playing around with the fetus, then, and let it be born as is, even if we know it is coming out with Down Syndrome? Isn't that cruel to the child? What if other countries genetically enhance their babies and we don't, and our children thus fall behind? Isn't it cruel to our children to let them be born with a deficit compared to everyone else?
Do note that I am partially playing Devil's advocate, and there is a line here somewhere. But that line is different for different people. The situation can get murky.
To address the more specific issue of cybernetics in Nanoha, so what if a child is engineered with the ability to accept cybernetics? It still doesn't mean they have to go into combat. As long as they are given the choice about what to do with their life, then I'd argue they are in the same position as any other child born naturally.
Note that if we continue this philosophical debate, we might want to do so in a different thread, as it is getting off of Vivid.
So what is the moral argument against cloning your dead son, ala Erio? You simply create a new life, like you would if you had sex and got a woman pregnant normally. No child has a choice as to how they are born, or whether they are created in the first place. One might say, then, that it is immoral to have children since they have no choice.
Is it the tinkering we have a problem with? We can scan for genetic defects in a very early embryo or fetus, and to some degree, tinker with them to fix those defects. What about improvements, then? Soon, we'll have the technology to give a child better hearing or thinking processes, or enhanced reflexes. Star Trek dealt with this issue to, if you watched DS9. Should we ban all playing around with the fetus, then, and let it be born as is, even if we know it is coming out with Down Syndrome? Isn't that cruel to the child? What if other countries genetically enhance their babies and we don't, and our children thus fall behind? Isn't it cruel to our children to let them be born with a deficit compared to everyone else?
Do note that I am partially playing Devil's advocate, and there is a line here somewhere. But that line is different for different people. The situation can get murky.
To address the more specific issue of cybernetics in Nanoha, so what if a child is engineered with the ability to accept cybernetics? It still doesn't mean they have to go into combat. As long as they are given the choice about what to do with their life, then I'd argue they are in the same position as any other child born naturally.
Note that if we continue this philosophical debate, we might want to do so in a different thread, as it is getting off of Vivid.
So I have recently heard that after the Tournament ends Einhart parts ways with Vivio on less then good terms (emotional baggage from her ancestors memories cause her to become "distant"). Can anyone confirm this? I know that we are behind on chapters, but I am curious as to how this will play out, and if it could lead to something more interesting then the "Tournament Arc".