Nanoha Vivid Discussion

Kaijo

Well-Known Member
daniel_gudman said:
...child soldiers aren't enough to make it officially a dystopia for you?

Man, you're jaded.
You need to realize Mid isn't Earth because Earth doesn't have Mid's problem: children like Caro who can cause mass destruction. It demands different solutions, one of which is training. This tournament is a useful tool for that.

Note also that the Bureau generally draft child soldiers into their ranks. Kids have a choice. Even convicts like Hayate have the choice of not serving. It's just that they chose to do so to pay off their sentence.
 
The Bureau, however militarily structured it is, is neither a government nor an actual military. It is a police force. That said, we know that due to the age of 9 to 10 being the best time for magical development, it's best to train these kids then. It's also best to teach these kids responsibility then, so they don't wipe out a city block if they have a tantrum. Given this training and responsibility, I can see why they'd allow them to be enrolled into the Bureau's forces.
 

Andarion

Well-Known Member
daniel_gudman said:
I dig that, but I think you don't understand what I'm getting at:

It's not Earth because it's a horrible scifi dystopia full of child soldiers.
As others already said it's not a dystopia. You'd have Dystopia if every kid was treated like Lutecia. Brainwashed and controlled, made into a living weapon with some kind of override system built into her brain that would allow brass to take control at any time.

Nanoha has a LOT of potential for being a dark and nasty story, almost to Nasuverse levels but it is not. TSAB for all it's faults means well and wants to aid various worlds. People are not inherently evil and majority have a good reason for what they do even if they choose wrong methods. It's a story filled with hope and promise of better life for those who muster the strength to take that chance.
 

Kireen

Well-Known Member
I agree, if it was a Dystopia we would have already seen an army of emotionoless childeren turned into killing machine against their will by the use of drugs and hypnosis, combat cyborgs and cloning would have been legal, and there would have been a totalitarian regime that would have repressed the individuality of its citizens.

People on Mid have the right to choose, and considering how advanced their education system is because of the inclusion of magic in their society, they never specified what's the legal age on the Administrated Worlds, but we can conclude that it's quite lower than the one on Earth.

And FYI if you are interessed in a career in the army you can join a military accademy at 14 even IRL, they give you high school grade of instruction together with military training, it's not that we don't have similar things, magic aside.
 

Andarion

Well-Known Member
Kireen said:
People on Mid have the right to choose, and considering how advanced their education system is because of the inclusion of magic in their society, they never specified what's the legal age on the Administrated Worlds, but we can conclude that it's quite lower than the one on Earth.
Also I may be repeating myself but the Legal Age is really a very arbitrary thing which differs from culture to culture and depending on circumstances. Just because Mid Looks a bit like Earth doesn't mean they have the identical understanding of those things.
 

Andarion

Well-Known Member
Kireen said:
^ wasn't that more or less what I was saying?:huh:
Well not exactly, what I mean is that they have a completely different culture with different history. You mentioned education with magic included but I was talking in a somewhat... wider spectrum. I mean they have been developing for Hundreds if not Thousands of years separately from Earth and had that Big Ass 1000 Years War which ravaged Worlds and slaughtered lots of people. That kind of past leaves a Mark on the present society.

For example I wouldn't be surprised if "Legal Age" was fairly low in Ancient Belka simply because of the low survivability. Average lifespan during war is kinda short so to replace the losses the marriages and kids must have happened earlier than it would be accepted in Our culture. That's just one of possible examples.

This also translates to giving the children responsibilities much earlier than normally. For example the whole "Give Children Childhood" is really a fairly novel invention. In the past kids who were quite young were taken to work with adults, train and learn possible craftsmanship and stuff like that.
 

Nanya

Well-Known Member
Andarion said:
Kireen said:
^ wasn't that more or less what I was saying?:huh:
Well not exactly, what I mean is that they have a completely different culture with different history. You mentioned education with magic included but I was talking in a somewhat... wider spectrum. I mean they have been developing for Hundreds if not Thousands of years separately from Earth and had that Big Ass 1000 Years War which ravaged Worlds and slaughtered lots of people. That kind of past leaves a Mark on the present society.

For example I wouldn't be surprised if "Legal Age" was fairly low in Ancient Belka simply because of the low survivability. Average lifespan during war is kinda short so to replace the losses the marriages and kids must have happened earlier than it would be accepted in Our culture. That's just one of possible examples.
Erio in StrikerS was considered an adult in Ancient Belka.
 

Kireen

Well-Known Member
Andarion said:
Kireen said:
^ wasn't that more or less what I was saying?:huh:
Well not exactly, what I mean is that they have a completely different culture with different history. You mentioned education with magic included but I was talking in a somewhat... wider spectrum. I mean they have been developing for Hundreds if not Thousands of years separately from Earth and had that Big Ass 1000 Years War which ravaged Worlds and slaughtered lots of people. That kind of past leaves a Mark on the present society.

For example I wouldn't be surprised if "Legal Age" was fairly low in Ancient Belka simply because of the low survivability. Average lifespan during war is kinda short so to replace the losses the marriages and kids must have happened earlier than it would be accepted in Our culture. That's just one of possible examples.

This also translates to giving the children responsibilities much earlier than normally. For example the whole "Give Children Childhood" is really a fairly novel invention. In the past kids who were quite young were taken to work with adults, train and learn possible craftsmanship and stuff like that.
Ah, ok, I see you point and I agree with you.
 

Hoki

Well-Known Member
To continue...

Akiyoshi said:
My no-so-final argument: Wolkenritter xD

Bakken is only one of the moves she can make with the Sword draw technique, she also have non-fin9shing moves, the Sword draw state allows miura to perform a variety of enhaced kicks as she demonstrated in the last half of her fight with Vivio, heck she even has an attack called Flying Dragon ...rings any bells?
The "Sword Draw" state like you said, enhances her attacks, thus making her hit harder. Also, its a set up for her ultimate kick. Signum's battle style relies more on tactics and speed, power being a secondary factor to it. Miura follows Vita's concept of "Hit people until they stop moving."

And wow, Miura lacks focus? her entire fight with Vivo was resolved trough focus, the girl took risks and attempted to ponder when to receive hits and to wear down Vivio's stamina by turtling before unleashing her might (again, rings any bells?), while it's true her determination and punching power remsbles Vita more she also accquired some elements of Signum's fightstyle and phylosophy.
The fact that she has to be punched before she can get her head together displays her lack of focus. If her battle with Micaiah were in a real battle, she would've died before she could even land a hit. Somebody who has Signum's traits would've first observed how her opponent moved before making her own. Vita would've simply just rushed and smashed.

Miura wasn't as disciplined before meeting Zafira and the Wolks, she clearly mention that when Zafira started to train her she started to see a brighter side of herself. Also she pushes herself to become better everyday without bragging about her power (unlike Signum and Vita who gloat in front of almost every opponent) ...Zafira has always being a modest person despite his powers, that's another trait he and Miura share.
She also lacks restraint when it comes to her power, something Zaffy or Signum should've taught her but apparent didn't. Her lack of restraint is evidenced with her breaking a training pole in half with one kick. She realized afterwards that she broke it again after it was fixed and was scared that Vita and Zaffy would scold her for breaking training equipment repeatedly. She may not be too proud about how strong she is, but she also doesn't know how to limit her strength.

And the ice on the cake, Miura despite her prowess as a fighter and her power ...is still a nice and bumbly girl at heart, proven all the time while she gets embarrassed in front of a large audience, making silly mistakes during fights and getting overly worried about Vivio's health after her match, it's part of her strenght and charm as such honest heart is what impulsed her into becoming what she is now.
And this resembles Shamal how? Is it the part where she's a nice and girl? In that case its not really a resemblance because she has been a nice girl from the moment she was introduced and also was a part of her development as a person. I would doubt she gets that from Zaffy because he rarely displays emotions, despite being a nice guy overall.

Miura is her own character ...but she also represents the Yagami-ke quite well by portraying some of their most notable traits xD
Yes she is, but with regards to possessing the most notable traits of the Wolkenritter (Signums tactical ability and focus, Vita's determination and hard-hitting attacks, Shamal's binds, and Zafira's calm demeanor and steel defense) only Vita's clearly stands out from her with bits of Zaffy's defense, and even then the defense part could be considered Vita's as well, seeing that miss hammer knight can take attacks and still be capable of breaking opponents' faces.
 

Akiyoshi

Well-Known Member
Hoki said:
To continue...
Yay! i love long debates xD!

Hoki said:
The "Sword Draw" state like you said, enhances her attacks, thus making her hit harder. Also, its a set up for her ultimate kick. Signum's battle style relies more on tactics and speed, power being a secondary factor to it. Miura follows Vita's concept of "Hit people until they stop moving."
Power is also a big part of Signum's fiightstyle, if you don't believe me ask every opponent she has faced. Speed and tactics play a big part but when the moment of clash comes it always comes down to overwhelming power ...it's part of what came back to bite her in the ass when she fought Cypha, Signum tried to overpower someone more powerfull than her.

I think the main difference between Signum abd Vita's styles are that Signum tries to win with the less number of hits possible while Vita just keep smashing till something changes. Miura started the fight this way but after Vivio proved to be too skilled and agile to fall for that Miura was forced to switch to a more tactical approach showing that she's also very capable to analyze her opponent and devise a way to face it ....much closer to Signum and Zafira than Vita in that regard.

Hoki said:
The fact that she has to be punched before she can get her head together displays her lack of focus. If her battle with Micaiah were in a real battle, she would've died before she could even land a hit. Somebody who has Signum's traits would've first observed how her opponent moved before making her own. Vita would've simply just rushed and smashed.
That comes with the package of being a bumbly little girl, she was nervous and insecure during her debut fight in fornt of a big audience and against a popular veteran fighter to boot. She wasn't focused until Michaiah handed her butt to her, don't undermine Miura's skills just because of some childish mistake ...she's a child after all xDU As i've pointed out once she gets her act togheter she started to evaluate her opponent's condition, thinking fast about a way to land her attacks and overall ..to analyze it. Miura knows when she's at a disadvantage and tries to think the best way to come up ahead ...she's of course, limited by her lack of experience as also her naiveness which can be deceiving when trying to measure her skills.

Hoki said:
She also lacks restraint when it comes to her power, something Zaffy or Signum should've taught her but apparent didn't. Her lack of restraint is evidenced with her breaking a training pole in half with one kick. She realized afterwards that she broke it again after it was fixed and was scared that Vita and Zaffy would scold her for breaking training equipment repeatedly. She may not be too proud about how strong she is, but she also doesn't know how to limit her strength.
Miura is still working on that, in fact, she's still working on a lot of stuff. Unlike Vita, Miura's lack of restraint is unintentional and she acknowledges she must improve on that. Another trait she shares with Shamal, they're both kind people who doesn't like to hurt people (at least not badly) and that also get spacey and commit mistakes when they're too concentrated onto something they like (Miura's martial arts started soemwhat similar to Shamal's cook xD).

Hoki said:
And this resembles Shamal how? Is it the part where she's a nice and girl? In that case its not really a resemblance because she has been a nice girl from the moment she was introduced and also was a part of her development as a person. I would doubt she gets that from Zaffy because he rarely displays emotions, despite being a nice guy overall.
As mentioned above, the part where both are honest, kind and spacey girls who commit some mistakes when getting to passionate on what they like and then are flustered when realising they screwed up things. Miura is an nteresting case as her personality could suit that of a support or a healer mage very well but her preferred route is to become a fighter xD! (somewhat similar to Corona but even mroe straightforward). Also both seems to have a sweet tooth xD!


Hoki said:
Yes she is, but with regards to possessing the most notable traits of the Wolkenritter (Signums tactical ability and focus, Vita's determination and hard-hitting attacks, Shamal's binds, and Zafira's calm demeanor and steel defense) only Vita's clearly stands out from her with bits of Zaffy's defense, and even then the defense part could be considered Vita's as well, seeing that miss hammer knight can take attacks and still be capable of breaking opponents' faces.
Miura not only represent the wolks in terms of fighting but also in terms of personality and phylosphy both in and out of the arena. You're stereotyping the Wolks traits a bit too much, Miura resemble Vita as much as she resembles the rest of the family, she has Vita's straightforwardness and determination, Signum's analitical insight skills and love for battles, Zafira's discipline, modesty and way of fighting (she adapted techniques from Signum and Vita but at the end she's still a Strike Artist at heart training under Zafira's guidance) and Shamal's bumblyness and kindness.

Oh, she also seems to have the eagerness and innocence of Reinforce Zewi xD

The only thing she needs is Hayate's uhm... 40-old man preferences to be complete xDU ...oh wait, she have hair decs xD!
 

Hoki

Well-Known Member
*sigh* Fine, fine... you keep your opinions. I'll keep mine.

Seriously, why do I keep falling into the argument trap. -_-
 

Akiyoshi

Well-Known Member
because it's fun and addicive xD?

But well, talking about ViVid, does anyone have some partial translation of the latest chapter? I would like to know witch girl's reaso to go fter Sieglinde o.o
 

keroko

Well-Known Member
Hoki said:
The "Sword Draw" state like you said, enhances her attacks, thus making her hit harder. Also, its a set up for her ultimate kick. Signum's battle style relies more on tactics and speed, power being a secondary factor to it. Miura follows Vita's concept of "Hit people until they stop moving."
Actually, while I agree that Signum's style incorporate far more tactics, Signum has consistently relied on power over speed. That's why Fate went for speed in A's, because she couldn't match Signum in power (it also serves to note that Signum comments on Fate's incredible speed even before Sonic Form).
 

Hoki

Well-Known Member
In another bout of boredom and partly because I was researching for my fic. I came across a topic on the AS Vivid forums. The topic itself caught my attention because some people claimed it to be a plot hole for the sake of "reincarnation romance."

The topic was "If Vivio is the clone of the Saint Kaiser, why aren't people worshiping the ground she walks on or at least going to see her?"

To me, the question should be "Why is there a church for Olivie in the first place?" We are never given the reason why people revered Olivie, other than the fact that she was the one who ended the centuries-long Belkan wars. If the flashbacks in the current chapters are of any indication, we'll probably get to know how exactly did she accomplish this feat.

People seem to assume that Mid-Childians worship Olivie like she was some kind of deity, but I think their admiration for Olivie stems closer to hero worship than that of a goddess. Granted, Olivie was revered as the strongest combat mage, but she's still human. Hegemon Klaus was another absurdly strong mage who took the title of "strongest mage" once Olivie was gone, and his name is famed in legends as "having the strength of a thousand men," yet we do not have the "Church of Ingvalt." Vivio's school is named "Saint Hilde," yet we have no idea who this person is. Hell, we don't even know why Olivie was given the title of "Sank Kaiser." (did I get that right?) Again, the only thing we know Olivie did was end the Unification Wars, how she ended it is another thing altogether. We are never told if Olivie preached the ideas of peace, fed the people by magically multiplying food, raised the dead, and more importantly, rose from the dead: things that Jesus did. Would Jesus be more popular if he fought the Romans? Probably, but people worship him because he did seemingly impossible things and preached ideas that were highly influential to society.

I think people do not swam and worship the ground Vivio walks on because even if they knew she was Olivie's clone, the best reaction they could probably have is, "Really? Wow!" She'll probably be treated like a celebrity or something similar, but people would still think of her as a human. Mid-childians would react more to the fact that there are people who clone human beings, which is illegal.

Another thing is in Mid-Childa's current age, people do not necessary need the influence of somebody like Olivie to help them live their lives. The fact that the Saint Church itself is experiencing low membership is also something, as Chantez' goal in entering the DSAA tournament is to inspire young children to join the Saint Church because there are kind people there that could help them find their purpose in life. Neither Vivio nor Olivie were responsible for Chantez' joining of the Saint Church; it was Schach. To her, Vivio is simply a special and kind kid, but a kid nonetheless.

To conclude, I think Mid-Chidlians simply view Olivie as a Hero, kind of like Joan of Arc, hence why people aren't flocking in droves to see Vivio.
 

keroko

Well-Known Member
A simple hero worship doesn't lead to an entire religion founded in the hero's name and said religion becoming one of the most popular religions in dimensional space though. It's more ancestor veneration, which in our world is about as close to religion as you can get without actually being a divinity-based religion.

Regardless, whether a divine icon venerated ancestor, it is still a religion. Common sense dictates there should be at least a legion of worshipers going crazy about this "new" Sankt Kaiser, for good and ill. That's simply how religion works. Always has. You don't just have a clone of the central figure of your religion pop up and watch everyone go "Wow, cool." Imagine if someone were to clone Micheal Jackson from his prime days. People would go berserk. And that's just a very famous star, not the central figure of one of the biggest religions out there.

Because, yes, even though Chantez wants to convert more people, the church is stated in the second StrikerS DVD booklet to be one of the biggest out there.

To quote:

聖王教会 – Saint Church
A world religion, boasting the longest reach in the Interdimensional World. A religion with a history continuing since Ancient Belkan times, the “Saint King” of Ancient Belka received his calling as a prophet, and “the Saint Movement” was established to spread these teachings. Afterwords, since the Saint King accomplished great achievements time and again, in the present day the Saint King himself has become the idol of the belief. Even though there are some small differences in creed on different worlds or territories, compared to other religions “the Saint Movement” is relatively liberal, and because of that there are many believers. In many scenic areas, the churches are also well known sight-seeing stops due to their beauty. The Grand Cathedral in the Belka Self-Governing Region is especially well known for this reason, and so is a popular location for weddings among young people.


The Saint Church is not a small religion. Chantez just wants to convert more sisters because she wants to repay Schach, not because the church is in dire need of them.
 

Kaijo

Well-Known Member
Given that Vivio is Nanoha's daughter, and Nanoha is good friends with Hayate who is good friends with Carim, the head of the church, you can presume that Carim has issued something of a fatwa that people not fawn over or bother Vivio at the moment. People in religions tend to take the orders of their heads quite seriously. Still, there could be other sects and dominations and other worshipers out there who might not listen to Carim. Though even they'd realize What it might mean if they bothered Vivio.

If you're curious, a fic I am currently writing called "Through a Mirror, Darkly" uses other sects and worshipers in its plotline, because this angle did intrigue me and I wanted to explore it.
 

keroko

Well-Known Member
Kaijo said:
People in religions tend to take the orders of their heads quite seriously.
Except when they say "don't worship this." I mean, even Jesus said "don't worship me" and look how that turned out. Particularly the more extreme devotees are happy to go along with whatever religious leaders say, sure, but the moment you say "go easy on the worshipping thing" it goes in one ear and out the other.

I mean, you'd at least expect a comment from unknown people here and there on this teeny-tiny detail, given how they don't exactly keep it a secret either.
 

Hoki

Well-Known Member
keroko said:
A simple hero worship doesn't lead to an entire religion founded in the hero's name and said religion becoming one of the most popular religions in dimensional space though. It's more ancestor veneration, which in our world is about as close to religion as you can get without actually being a divinity-based religion.

Regardless, whether a divine icon venerated ancestor, it is still a religion. Common sense dictates there should be at least a legion of worshipers going crazy about this "new" Sankt Kaiser, for good and ill. That's simply how religion works. Always has. You don't just have a clone of the central figure of your religion pop up and watch everyone go "Wow, cool." Imagine if someone were to clone Micheal Jackson from his prime days. People would go berserk. And that's just a very famous star, not the central figure of one of the biggest religions out there.
So do people actually expect Vivio to be Olivie then? That's the issue that is supposed to be addressed. This also concerns the issue of "Is a cloned person the same person as the original" thing that frequently popped in the series.

Take Fate for example. She's been given all of Alicia's memories, yet she still turned out to be entirely different. I also think that this is the reason why Erio's parents gave him up so easily, because even though they raised him to be like their original child, he was somewhat different. Vivio didn't have, (or at least I think she didn't) nor received Olivie's memories, and was raised as her own person. If there are worshipers who think she should be the Olivie of their religion, and then they find out that she's not, what do you think would happen? Wouldn't they want to burn her at the stake?

And how much does the public actually know about Vivio? Do they even know that the Saint Cradle can only be activated by the Saint King? Seeing as that thing has virtually vanished from history and possibly known only to scholars as the ship of the Saint King. Jail's broadcast in episode 19 of StrikerS is probably aimed at the TSAB and the Saint Church and since Uno's IS gives her ultimate haxxor skills, it is a piece of cake for them to tap their lines just because they can. The incident itself would only be reported to the public as the work of a terrorist.

I think the reason people know or at least think Vivio is the Saint Kaiser because she looks like Olivie, and whenever she stops by the Church, people like Otto and Deed kept addressing her as "Your Magesty" which to bystanders, can be a form of endearment. Rio and Corona knowing about Vivio's origins is probably because Vivio told them about it. Victoria probably used her family's wealth and connections to verify whether Vivio is the real deal. Einhart was probably basing on her memories (the real question is how she also learned the existence of Ix). It's not really explicitly stated that people know that Vivio is a clone (or am I missing something from the SS and all the manuals again)
 

keroko

Well-Known Member
Hoki said:
So do people actually expect Vivio to be Olivie then? That's the issue that is supposed to be addressed.
Actually, no. At least, not in my opinion. My problem isn't with how the people react to this, it's the complete and utter lack of any reaction.

News that a clone of the Sankt Kaiser is walking around should lead to some reaction. Worship, outrage, political intrigue, idolization, veneration, fanclubs, there's several dozen scenarios of all levels of impact that could, and really in some cases should, be happening. And yet all we get is... nothing. Even though the level of secrecy surrounding this is so non-existent that a young middle schooler with no military or black market connections whatsoever can find out.

There's a clone of a central religious figure running around, and nobody seems to care. That is a rather huge missed opportunity, and quite a sizable plothole.
 

Hoki

Well-Known Member
keroko said:
News that a clone of the Sankt Kaiser is walking around should lead to some reaction. Worship, outrage, political intrigue, idolization, veneration, fanclubs, there's several dozen scenarios of all levels of impact that could, and really in some cases should, be happening. And yet all we get is... nothing. Even though the level of secrecy surrounding this is so non-existent that a young middle schooler with no military or black market connections whatsoever can find out.

There's a clone of a central religious figure running around, and nobody seems to care. That is a rather huge missed opportunity, and quite a sizable plothole.
Again, how much does the public actually know about Vivio? Aside from the people who really know her, Vivio's friends, and people who actually can find it out, nobody seems to be aware of it.

My theory with regards to Einhart is simple; she saw Vivio in their school and it triggered memories of Olivie. She also happened to overhear them visiting Ix at one point and recalled stories about her.

The last one was a bit far fetched, but seeing Vivio and triggering memories related to Olivie is I think the best possible explanation as to How Einhart found it out.
 

Rising Dragon

Well-Known Member
Well for one, they're clearly not hiding her identity, and some people publicly call her "Your Majesty", and even if they're her friends, they wouldn't call her that in public if it was supposed to be under wraps. Especially if said friends worked for the Saint Church. And as Keroko mentioned earlier, a girl with no military or underworld connections knew of Vivio being the Sankt Kaiser, as well as the existence of Ixpellia.

So her identity and status as the Sankt Kaiser is most certainly not a secret.
 

Hoki

Well-Known Member
Rising Dragon said:
Well for one, they're clearly not hiding her identity, and some people publicly call her "Your Majesty", and even if they're her friends, they wouldn't call her that in public if it was supposed to be under wraps. Especially if said friends worked for the Saint Church. And as Keroko mentioned earlier, a girl with no military or underworld connections knew of Vivio being the Sankt Kaiser, as well as the existence of Ixpellia.

So her identity and status as the Sankt Kaiser is most certainly not a secret.
They're not hiding her identity because to the world, she's Vivio Takamachi. To strangers who do not know who she is, seeing members of the Saint Church use the term "Your Magesty" to Vivio can either be seen as a from of endearment, on the context that they have seen both Vivio and the portrait of Olivie and summed that they do look alike. How Einhart found out is the real mystery here, since like Keroko said, she has no military or underground connections, or at least no connections that we know of anyway.

Other than that, I don't think there's anything in the manga that suggests that all people in Mid-Childa know Vivio is the Saint Kaiser's clone, unless there something in the SS or the manual that suggests otherwise.
 

Rising Dragon

Well-Known Member
There's probably a manual or magazine reference, and sadly we don't have translations of those.
 

keroko

Well-Known Member
Hoki said:
Again, how much does the public actually know about Vivio? Aside from the people who really know her, Vivio's friends, and people who actually can find it out, nobody seems to be aware of it.

My theory with regards to Einhart is simple; she saw Vivio in their school and it triggered memories of Olivie. She also happened to overhear them visiting Ix at one point and recalled stories about her.

The last one was a bit far fetched, but seeing Vivio and triggering memories related to Olivie is I think the best possible explanation as to How Einhart found it out.
Except chapter six is the first time she sees Vivio, with Einhart even being surprised at how small and fragile Vivio looks. Not to mention that she's not the only one who found out. Victoria might have somewhat of an excuse being rich and all, but she still found out. Witch girl also knows. They don't even bother keeping it a secret and several people have found out now, which, in a world that has internet, means everyone should know by now.
 
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