Nanoha Vivid Discussion

#76
Kaijo said:
Close, but cloning isn't inherently bad.
I didn't saying cloning was bad.

I said that conducting research and experimentation on children is bad.

Experimenting with the cloning process inherently means trying something different without knowing what the result will be. If you know what the result will be, it's not experimentation.

This is gambling with a baby's life.

Project F wasn't just any old cloning project. It wasn't simply introducing spermoza to eggs. It was about reliably producing mages; controlling the random genetic mix-up to produce a desired result.

Perfecting genetic engineering on that level is BOUND to be risky. You can't be sure that the worst mistake would be just producing clones without magical power at all. That could simply be the kindest failure.

True, there might come a point where genetic engineering research (conducted on lab animals) can reach a point where the risks are extremely minor. But until that point, jumping straight into human/child experimentation ought to be illegal.

The TSAB declared it illegal. That sort of suggests that the technology wasn't safe enough yet.


Project Fate wasn't created for good reasons, and it's hard to see what good use it could be put towards. [At least as intended. See below.]

It's a technique that imprints memories belonging to one person onto a completely different person. Fate Testarossa was not Alicia, no matter how much she remembered her life.

Presea denied Fate her own childhood by accelerating her growth and giving her someone else's memories. When would that ever be preferable to letting a child grow up normally and letting her make her own memories?

[Moral/ethical uses of memory-imprinting technology might be "curing" amnesia, or speed-education.]


Cloning as a form of childbirth/fertility aid is fine, but that's because the clone is being treated like a child and raised within a loving family as a human being.

Outside of that, cloning treats babies as tools. It's dehumanizing, inhumane, and cruel.

Babies should never be produced as Fate, Erio and Vivio were produced. Neither Ginga or Subaru.

Ironically, the Numbers' birth is less controversial than the Type-0s', since their creator treated them as his own children. But it doesn't change the fact that he produced them through child-experimentation. (Also, that someone as unhinged as him had no business raising children.)


So what is the moral argument against cloning your dead son, ala Erio? You simply create a new life, like you would if you had sex and got a woman pregnant normally.
They didn't have a new son. They created a new son and tried to force him to be the old one, giving him the same name, forcing him to quick-grow to the same age, and forcing the same memories on him.

They tried to force the second son to be someone he wasn't. It was wrong when Presea did that to Fate, and it's not okay now.
 

Rising Dragon

Well-Known Member
#77
KageX said:
So I have recently heard that after the Tournament ends Einhart parts ways with Vivion on less then good terms. Can anyone confirm this? I know that we are behind on chapters, but I am curious as to how this will play out, and if it could lead to something more interesting then the "Tournament Arc".
First time I've heard of anything like this. What we do know is that after everyone's losses in the tournament, Vivio's posse and some of the DSAA contestants (Sieglinde among them) decide to do some research on the families from the Saint King Unification War at the Infinite Library. Vivio and Einhart still seem to be on good terms.
 

Hoki

Well-Known Member
#78
KageX said:
So I have recently heard that after the Tournament ends Einhart parts ways with Vivion on less then good terms. Can anyone confirm this? I know that we are behind on chapters, but I am curious as to how this will play out, and if it could lead to something more interesting then the "Tournament Arc".
Ah finally! Something Vivid-related.

From what I can understand from the raws, the story has slowly moved from "Tournamnent Arc" to something like the discovery of the past. It'll be too much of a spoiler if I revealed more, so I'll leave it at that.

Seriously guys, Erio's predicament and the CC's go in the StrikerS thread.
 

Nanya

Well-Known Member
#79
One thing to learn, Hoki...

A thread isn't considered successful unless it's been derailed at least 3 times somehow. :p
 

Hoki

Well-Known Member
#80
Nanya said:
One thing to learn, Hoki...

A thread isn't considered successful unless it's been derailed at least 3 times somehow. :p
I don't know if that's supposed to be a compliment or not -_-
 

Deathwings

Well-Known Member
#81
It's just an old TFF tradition.
 

Kaijo

Well-Known Member
#82
Sunder, gonna move our discussion to the StrikerS thread, which I suppose is the better place for it.

And Hoki, threads get derailed. It's a natural consequence of them existing. Out of the hundreds of forums I've visited, practically no thread has remained immune to this, because it is just human nature to slide off into tangents. The key is then to have patience and see if the tangent dies out shortly, or if it takes over the thread, or if it slides off into an appropriate thread.
 

Hoki

Well-Known Member
#83
Kaijo said:
Sunder, gonna move our discussion to the StrikerS thread, which I suppose is the better place for it.

And Hoki, threads get derailed. It's a natural consequence of them existing. Out of the hundreds of forums I've visited, practically no thread has remained immune to this, because it is just human nature to slide off into tangents. The key is then to have patience and see if the tangent dies out shortly, or if it takes over the thread, or if it slides off into an appropriate thread.
It's just a pet peeve of mine, y'know. I love heated discussions, and if pushed, I can and will continue defending my side, should I ever participate in one. I just want it to be on the topic, or closely related to it, especially when its a topic I started.

*sigh* Anyway, no new translated chapters yet? I'm tired of reading Chinese. -_-
 

Nanya

Well-Known Member
#84
Chapters get released as the translators work on them.

They have a bunch ready to go, but they're releasing them once a month in case something happens (like the mangaka taking a month off or something) so we aren't left wanting too much.
 

Hoki

Well-Known Member
#85
Finally, new chapter is out!!! XD

Also Sieglinde Jeremiah... ten time interdimensional champ.
 

Akiyoshi

Well-Known Member
#86
Hoki said:
Finally, new chapter is out!!! XD

Also Sieglinde Jeremiah... ten time interdimensional champ.
I want to learn mroe about her and her relationship with Victoria xD

So far my two fav characters of ViVid xD!
 

Nanya

Well-Known Member
#87
Akiyoshi said:
Hoki said:
Finally, new chapter is out!!! XD

Also Sieglinde Jeremiah... ten time interdimensional champ.
I want to learn mroe about her and her relationship with Victoria xD

So far my two fav characters of ViVid xD!
So, about 3 chapters away from you scream about how they've been worfed? XP
 

Akiyoshi

Well-Known Member
#88
Nanya said:
So, about 3 chapters away from you scream about how they've been worfed? XP
They're both teenage girls participating in sports sanctioned tournaments with all kinds of safety measures. So, for now, they're unworfable because they need to build up the badass reputation first xD

Plus, for those very reasons they have mroe space to grow up as characters after they get defeated, it's the magic that comes with young and fresh characters xD
 

Nanya

Well-Known Member
#89
Akiyoshi said:
Nanya said:
So, about 3 chapters away from you scream about how they've been worfed? XP
They're both teenage girls participating in sports sanctioned tournaments with all kinds of safety measures. So, for now, they're unworfable because they need to build up the badass reputation first xD

Plus, for those very reasons they have mroe space to grow up as characters after they get defeated, it's the magic that comes with young and fresh characters xD
So...

3 chapters until you proclaim them super weak then.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#90
...speaking of "sanctioned tournaments with all kinds of safety measures"...

So when the the tournament arc started, and the author was showing off how hard-core all these girls were because they're using non-lethal magic but they have the Damage Simulator Thing that emulates the wounds and pain without you actually getting injured; did anyone else look at that, furrow their brow, and murmur to themselves, "isn't that functionally, like, Torture Magic?"

It struck me as deeply odd.

Here's what I imagined in my head:
what I Imagined said:
Viveo: Mama, I want to participate in this tournament, can I go?

Nanoha: Oh, that's nice. What kind of safety equipment is there?

Viveo: Well no one is allowed to participate unless they have a military-grade device but they're all set to non-lethal mode except there's also a part that simulates the pain of getting your guts ripped out if the enemy hits you with a sword so please momma can I go?

Nanoha: Fucking of course not.

The White Devil: HELL YES.
"Your kids will suffer exactly the same pain as if they really were beating each other three-quarters of the way to death!" does not sound like the kind of thing normal, non-scifi-dystopia parents would be at all okay with.
 

Rising Dragon

Well-Known Member
#91
Well, I imagine there's some limitations to it--I can't really see them deliberately allowing the simulation of entrails-hanging-out as you so colorfully exampled.

But what it is is simulating what injuries that can occur during a martial arts tournament without actually having the injuries happen. In the real world, any parents who let their children enter a martial arts challenge (in theory*) are aware of the risks and what injuries may happen in the ring.

*: I say in theory because I'm well aware that a lot of parents are fucking idiots who shouldn't have been allowed to breed.
 

Akiyoshi

Well-Known Member
#92
Considering Sieglinde stompped Einhart who prior to that point was renowed by everyone as the most superawesome fighter of the season (hell, even in the Gears of Destiny game characters cannot stop commenting how awesome she is xDU) and that Victoria not only has strenght but also class i should say it will be hard to make me consider them weak or worthless (said spot is currently filled by Els Tamin, seriously, poor bespectacled girl ...oh yeah and michaiah Chevelle, veteran stompped by a rookie xDU).

Oh yeah in a recent chapter Witch Girl stripped, shrinked and trapped Sieglinde in a small bottle ...what our helpless little champion did? Break free and face witch girl by herself with no help whatsoever xD!

So far ...BADASS xD
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#93
Rising Dragon said:
Well, I imagine there's some limitations to it--I can't really see them deliberately allowing the simulation of entrails-hanging-out as you so colorfully exampled.

But what it is is simulating what injuries that can occur during a martial arts tournament without actually having the injuries happen.
Ehhh... there was that scene where that one girl was clutching her "broken" arm and crying and I was like, "okay, I'm officially ambivalent about this whole scenario."

Especially since in every tournament I've ever fought in, by the time I actually stepped into the ring I was so stoked on endorphins I didn't really feel any pain until afterwards. Severe stuff like "breaking your limb bone" is a game-ender, even at the highest level of competition. An injury so severe the pain cuts through the fight hormones suppressing pain means your tournament has ended.

It's just... gratuitous suffering, I guess? Thinking about this as an ethical problem dragged me out of the story.
 

Andarion

Well-Known Member
#94
daniel_gudman said:
Especially since in every tournament I've ever fought in, by the time I actually stepped into the ring I was so stoked on endorphins I didn't really feel any pain until afterwards. Severe stuff like "breaking your limb bone" is a game-ender, even at the highest level of competition. An injury so severe the pain cuts through the fight hormones suppressing pain means your tournament has ended.

It's just... gratuitous suffering, I guess? Thinking about this as an ethical problem dragged me out of the story.
People forget again and again that this is NOT Earth. Earth laws, moral and ethic standards do not apply there. This is a world where three girls were fighting and working for Space Police since they were 10, one got crippling injuries at around the age of 12 but worked her way back to full functionality and continued her career. This is a world several decades after a Thousand Years Long War where Child Soldiers were seriously not the worst things out there.

This Is Not Earth.
 

Kaijo

Well-Known Member
#95
Another way to look at it... they are showing kids exactly what kind of consequences come with their powers. By participating in this tournament, they are learning exactly what kind of pain they can inflict, and how it feels to be hit in return. The lesson would be to drive home that magic powers are no toy, and aren't to be treated lightly.
 

Akiyoshi

Well-Known Member
#96
Mhh... that's a plausible viewpoint, kids wo watch or participate in this tournament could realize the kind of hardships they could face if they become TSAB recruits just for the sake of coolness. From that angle the TSAB looks like a more socially responsible institution because they're showing both the benefits and consequences of joining them so the people who joins them are concious and willing to take the risks.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#97
Andarion said:
This Is Not Earth.
I dig that, but I think you don't understand what I'm getting at:

It's not Earth because it's a horrible scifi dystopia full of child soldiers.
 

Nanya

Well-Known Member
#98
daniel_gudman said:
Andarion said:
This Is Not Earth.
I dig that, but I think you don't understand what I'm getting at:

It's not Earth because it's a horrible scifi dystopia full of child soldiers.
What Dystopia?

Yes, they use children to fight, yes that is a valid concern.

But what Dystopia?
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#99
...child soldiers aren't enough to make it officially a dystopia for you?

Man, you're jaded.
 

Nanya

Well-Known Member
daniel_gudman said:
...child soldiers aren't enough to make it officially a dystopia for you?

Man, you're jaded.
No, it's not.

Even Star Trek used Children to command starships in the Federation.

To me, a Dystopia is a government that crushes individual liberties for the sake of a few, takes away privacy, commences searches without any real due process, makes people into second class (or worse) citizens if they don't conform to the rules the way the government chooses to run things.

Where does the Bureau (or Mid-Childa) do that stuff?
 
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