Akamatsuverse [Negima] Can normal people fight them?

[the DragonBard]

Can normal people fight them?

Sorry LR, but Crusader clarified his question. He meant 'all' superhumans, not just mages when writing it.

Then the question is complete bullshit, and the fight a total setup. Your average mage's standard attack has the firepower of the main cannon of a tank. And they can fly. And they're too small to be picked up by radar as anything worthy of note.

Just the faculty of Mahora could take over a medium-sized country. Someone like Eva or Rakan could probably take over a significant portion of Earth, if they didn't flat-out conquer the whole thing.

I'm sorry if you don't like it, but it 'is' a reasonable question. He wanted to know if there were methods to fight them, and there are. Just not many, and they aren't easy.

Heavy artillery against the average mages, though armor piercing bullets 'might' be able to take out the less experienced ones. If you catch them by surprise. And you're very lucky.

Nukes, and assassination methods (killing them in their sleep, poison, etc) against the most powerful.

It's a good thing that the highest level mages/martial artists probably number one per out of every million mages/martial artists.

 

[Delta Green Friendly]

Can normal people fight them?

Normal people can defeat supernaturals just fine.

You just need to send an Absolute Mundane at the head of the hit squad.

 

[Echo 8]

Can normal people fight them?

Sorry LR, but Crusader clarified his question. He meant 'all' superhumans, not just mages when writing it.

Then the question is complete bullshit, and the fight a total setup. Your average mage's standard attack has the firepower of the main cannon of a tank. And they can fly. And they're too small to be picked up by radar as anything worthy of note.

Just the faculty of Mahora could take over a medium-sized country. Someone like Eva or Rakan could probably take over a significant portion of Earth, if they didn't flat-out conquer the whole thing.

No, that won't ever happen. While I agree that they could easily destroy any opposition, unless they can get a large number of the local population on their side, I doubt they could even take over a small country. They just don't have numbers required to enforce any laws/edicts they make. Without a visible presence (either a mage or a human with the proper authority), the mages would be more like a natural disaster to the local populace rather than a new ruling class.

EDIT:
I just remembered something - Negima mages aren't above using tech. The fact that they had stockpiles of mundane-usable anti-robot weaponry means someone's once fielded an army of robots. So I take back what I wrote above, they could take over a country.

I imagine, if there ever was a mundane/magical war, it's going to be less artillery batteries firing on unsuspecting mages, and more flying battleships laying waste to any sizable troop formations, with the super-mages taking out the harder targets.

Does anyone know if the flying ships have magical barriers of their own or do they just rely on armour to soak up the damage?

 

[Patrick_Gleason]

Can normal people fight them?

And Skywalkers have a tendency to border on the dark side

And does that matter when said Skywalker in the eye of a force maelstrom, throwing twenty lightsabers around, unleashing force lightening on anyone who dares to oppose him, and generally bringing an alien race to extinction? Or when he is piloting a Star Destroyer to maximum efficiency... with his telepathy?

Vaapad is dangerous, I give you that. But this isn't about being good. It's about being powerful.

Starting an underground resistance movement instead of bowing is probably what some would do as well.

And what would they do to her?

Again, your definition of normal is incredibly fucked up, and makes no sense whatsoever.

I believe the definition of "normal" is anyone with th abilities and skills of a REAL human. So, no ki. It's perfectly reasonable to me.

I believe my point stands. If nuclear weapons, tanks, and jet fighters count, so does ki. They are all abnormal skills, and are open to anyone to learn.

Now that's fucked up. Are you really equating a tank, nuclear energy and ki? What do these things have in common for God's sake? a jet fighter is an abnormal skill? I used to call it a "combat airplane", but that's just me...

Rakan would not be on the Muggle side of the war, but he is still a good benchmark for what the Muggles could potentially accomplish.

Rakan isn't human

And for those of you complaining that Rakan might be using magic to fight with, I'd like to remind you that even if you can use magic, it must be taught to you. Rakan grew up as a slave, then as a gladiator, then as a mercenary. Nobody ever taught him shit. That means he can't be using magic by default. He may still count as a mage, as it's clear he knows some spells and can use them when he feels like it, but that's not his main weapon, it's not what he grew up fighting with, and it's not what makes him so obscenely badass.

Magic is, at it's heart, academia. Rakan's life could be described as a combination of Spartacus and Guts. See the problem?

Yeah, yeah. That doesn't change the fact that he CAN use magic. Nor that he isn't human. And really, I don't remember reading that Rakan never had any contact with someone that could've taught him magic. It makes me wonder how he learned to cast that Incendium Gehennae spell, a pretty high-level one... Oh well... He's so badass he must have just taught himself... Bypassing all the earlier levels of magical proficiency at that.

Seriously, I can't see how can anybody call a man that fires energy beams from his body "normal"...

Then the question is complete bullshit, and the fight a total setup.

Then why bother answering it? Just forget this topic. If you're actually trying to change the question so your answer makes sense...

No, that won't ever happen. While I agree that they could easily destroy any opposition, unless they can get a large number of the local population on their side, I doubt they could even take over a small country. They just don't have numbers required to enforce any laws/edicts they make. Without a visible presence (either a mage or a human with the proper authority), the mages would be more like a natural disaster to the local populace rather than a new ruling class.

That could be taken care of. Someone like Eva, for example, could get a handful of acolytes quickly. Maybe even mages. And the problem is solved.

Also, when someone can kill you, or your family, or turn them to stone, or vaporize them or crush your city or burn an entire forest... Well, people tend to obey. Even if said someone isn't present.

If mages decided they should rule Earth, I can't see the muggles making a significant resistance, unless they use nuclear weapons, and that would result in a nuclear Armageddon because of the sheer number of mages in the world. And we're not even counting with the possibility of an antinuclear ward.

 

[Crusader]

Can normal people fight them?

And what would they do to her?

Well she may seem omnipotent, but I can't say the same for her underlings.

That could be taken care of. Someone like Eva, for example, could get a handful of acolytes quickly. Maybe even mages. And the problem is solved.

Also, when someone can kill you, or your family, or turn them to stone, or vaporize them or crush your city or burn an entire forest... Well, people tend to obey. Even if said someone isn't present.

If mages decided they should rule Earth, I can't see the muggles making a significant resistance, unless they use nuclear weapons, and that would result in a nuclear Armageddon because of the sheer number of mages in the world. And we're not even counting with the possibility of an antinuclear ward.

And then those acolytes and magi followers should know how to to work an infrastructure and administrating conquered territory. They would probably make key targets for assassination, but the fear of severe reprisals would probably make many hesitate.

And when you have your back against the wall when facing paranormal entities, you'd be surprised what sort of desperate measure will be used against them.

Considering the power of nuclear weapons, it must be a pain to use anti-nuclear wards to counter it.

Then the question is complete bullshit, and the fight a total setup.

Let me guess: everything that doesn't seem to follow your POV to the letter is "bullshit"?

 

[the DragonBard]

Can normal people fight them?

Sorry LR, but Crusader clarified his question. He meant 'all' superhumans, not just mages when writing it.

Then the question is complete bullshit, and the fight a total setup. Your average mage's standard attack has the firepower of the main cannon of a tank. And they can fly. And they're too small to be picked up by radar as anything worthy of note.

Just the faculty of Mahora could take over a medium-sized country. Someone like Eva or Rakan could probably take over a significant portion of Earth, if they didn't flat-out conquer the whole thing.

No, that won't ever happen. While I agree that they could easily destroy any opposition, unless they can get a large number of the local population on their side, I doubt they could even take over a small country. They just don't have numbers required to enforce any laws/edicts they make. Without a visible presence (either a mage or a human with the proper authority), the mages would be more like a natural disaster to the local populace rather than a new ruling class.

EDIT:
I just remembered something - Negima mages aren't above using tech. The fact that they had stockpiles of mundane-usable anti-robot weaponry means someone's once fielded an army of robots. So I take back what I wrote above, they could take over a country.

Actually, most of the puppets Eva used were magically animated, like Chachazero, or magic with tech elements. More golems than anything else. It's suggested that's the kind of forces the weapons were built to fight against.

I imagine, if there ever was a mundane/magical war, it's going to be less artillery batteries firing on unsuspecting mages, and more flying battleships laying waste to any sizable troop formations, with the super-mages taking out the harder targets.

Does anyone know if the flying ships have magical barriers of their own or do they just rely on armour to soak up the damage?

I think at least some of them have magical barriers. It may depend on the quality of the ship. I'm pretty sure Paru's is stated to have barriers though.

 

[zeebee1]

Can normal people fight them?

Evangeline could take over a country be herself. She'd just need followers if she wanted to retain control.

 

[Echo 8]

Can normal people fight them?

Again, your definition of normal is incredibly fucked up, and makes no sense whatsoever.

I believe the definition of "normal" is anyone with th abilities and skills of a REAL human. So, no ki. It's perfectly reasonable to me.

I believe my point stands. If nuclear weapons, tanks, and jet fighters count, so does ki. They are all abnormal skills, and are open to anyone to learn.

Now that's fucked up. Are you really equating a tank, nuclear energy and ki? What do these things have in common for God's sake? a jet fighter is an abnormal skill? I used to call it a "combat airplane", but that's just me...

I think what Lord Raine is trying to say, is that the skills required to drive a tank or fly a plane is not found in the average person, just like the skills required to manipulate ki. Normal does not include trained military personnel until there is such a time where the majority of the world's population has undergone military training.

No, that won't ever happen. While I agree that they could easily destroy any opposition, unless they can get a large number of the local population on their side, I doubt they could even take over a small country. They just don't have numbers required to enforce any laws/edicts they make. Without a visible presence (either a mage or a human with the proper authority), the mages would be more like a natural disaster to the local populace rather than a new ruling class.

That could be taken care of. Someone like Eva, for example, could get a handful of acolytes quickly. Maybe even mages. And the problem is solved.

Say your "handful of acolytes" is 20 people. According to this, about 85% of all countries have over 100k population, so let's say 100k is the population of a "small country."

You now have each acolyte having to personally keep 5000 people in line. All the time, without rest, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
The elements of society that used to enforce laws and maintain order (the police) no longer have the authority to do so, so they can't help.
Eva can't help, because she's now stuck in an office somewhere handling the administrative duties required to keep the country running, and is probably overwhelmed by it all since she's doing the work that used to be performed by dozens if not hundreds of people.

Hence the need for numbers, if only to reduce the workload performed by each individual.

Also, when someone can kill you, or your family, or turn them to stone, or vaporize them or crush your city or burn an entire forest... Well, people tend to obey. Even if said someone isn't present.

If mages decided they should rule Earth, I can't see the muggles making a significant resistance, unless they use nuclear weapons, and that would result in a nuclear Armageddon because of the sheer number of mages in the world. And we're not even counting with the possibility of an antinuclear ward.

The Americans can "kill you, or your family, <s>or turn them to stone, or vaporize them</s> or crush your city or burn an entire forest." The populations of Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan didn't all exactly turn into peaceful, obedient sheep, did they?

Actually, most of the puppets Eva used were magically animated, like Chachazero, or magic with tech elements. More golems than anything else. It's suggested that's the kind of forces the weapons were built to fight against.

The stripper-beam 'bots at the Mahora festival weren't an out-of-context problem for the mages, and I just extrapolated from that. Still, animated puppets and golems would qualify as robots in the sense that they are non-living automatons carrying out orders.

I imagine, if there ever was a mundane/magical war, it's going to be less artillery batteries firing on unsuspecting mages, and more flying battleships laying waste to any sizable troop formations, with the super-mages taking out the harder targets.

Does anyone know if the flying ships have magical barriers of their own or do they just rely on armour to soak up the damage?

I think at least some of them have magical barriers. It may depend on the quality of the ship. I'm pretty sure Paru's is stated to have barriers though.

Ah, thanks.

 

[Delta Green Friendly]

Can normal people fight them?

I must restate the obvious. If the mages' power is too much, the solution is to send a squad of Absolute Mundanes after the mages.

After all, what could Eva possibly do when suddenly she becomes merely a very intelligent little girl with a set of plastic vampire teeth?

Or the mages when their staves become simple pieces of wood with crystals glued on and their tomes of ancient magical knowledge become old books filled with incomprehensible gibberish?

The supernatural should learn to fear Absolute Mundanes, what ever the universe. :evil2:

 

[Lord Raine]

Can normal people fight them?

Can normal people fight them?

No. It's Joe Average vs Wuxia Gandalf. Absolutely no contest whatsoever.

You now have each acolyte having to personally keep 5000 people in line. All the time, without rest, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
The elements of society that used to enforce laws and maintain order (the police) no longer have the authority to do so, so they can't help.
Eva can't help, because she's now stuck in an office somewhere handling the administrative duties required to keep the country running, and is probably overwhelmed by it all since she's doing the work that used to be performed by dozens if not hundreds of people.

Why is Eva in an office doing paperwork, and not languishing on a skull throne in the heart of a magically constructed castle sipping tea?

This isn't "usurping power." This is war. If there are too many people for Eva and her limited pool of followers to keep in check, guess what? We're gonna start whacking heads off until we get a manageable number. And if Eva doesn't feel like ruling a country that day? Everybody dies, and they move on to the next nation/country/whatever, leaving a burning, ruined hellscape behind them.

She's waging war, not trying to usurp political power. The Russian army didn't storm Berlin with the intent of filling out paperwork and managing crowds of civilians.

I think what Lord Raine is trying to say, is that the skills required to drive a tank or fly a plane is not found in the average person, just like the skills required to manipulate ki. Normal does not include trained military personnel until there is such a time where the majority of the world's population has undergone military training.

Exactly. Ki is a skill, not a gift. The only reason to keep ki out of the Muggle side is if you argue that it's a skill a normal person wouldn't possess. But the problem is, normal people don't know how to operate military hardware, either. So if you axe one, the other goes too.

 

[zeebee1]

Can normal people fight them?

Some have argues that knowing how to operate military hardware is a normal skill depending on where you live. Normal is based upon averages, and averages change based upon many factors.

 

[Crusader]

Can normal people fight them?

Some have argues that knowing how to operate military hardware is a normal skill depending on where you live. Normal is based upon averages, and averages change based upon many factors.

"Normal people" can be a generalized and broad definition after all.

Well learning how to use military weaponry can be defined as learning from experience and training how to operate them at the best of your own ability.

And sometimes necessity is the mother of invention.

And there seems to be higher percentage chance of normal mundanes being able to learn how to use military weapons than it is for many lacking "the spark" to become potent ki-users and magic users.

 

[Echo 8]

Can normal people fight them?

You now have each acolyte having to personally keep 5000 people in line. All the time, without rest, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
The elements of society that used to enforce laws and maintain order (the police) no longer have the authority to do so, so they can't help.
Eva can't help, because she's now stuck in an office somewhere handling the administrative duties required to keep the country running, and is probably overwhelmed by it all since she's doing the work that used to be performed by dozens if not hundreds of people.

Why is Eva in an office doing paperwork, and not languishing on a skull throne in the heart of a magically constructed castle sipping tea?

This isn't "usurping power." This is war. If there are too many people for Eva and her limited pool of followers to keep in check, guess what? We're gonna start whacking heads off until we get a manageable number. And if Eva doesn't feel like ruling a country that day? Everybody dies, and they move on to the next nation/country/whatever, leaving a burning, ruined hellscape behind them.

She's waging war, not trying to usurp political power. The Russian army didn't storm Berlin with the intent of filling out paperwork and managing crowds of civilians.

I was working off the assumption that taking over a country meant keeping it more or less intact after the elements of the old regime has been wiped out.

Some have argues that knowing how to operate military hardware is a normal skill depending on where you live. Normal is based upon averages, and averages change based upon many factors.

"Normal people" can be a generalized and broad definition after all.

Without anything to indicate the country of origin, we have to take "normal people" as being the average human being for the entire of Earth's population. Given that only 8 nations have more than 100 trained personnel per capita, we can take it as trained people as being the minority.

Well learning how to use military weaponry can be defined as learning from experience and training how to operate them at the best of your own ability.

And how is that different from picking up any other skill set, say, I don't know, ki manipulation? We haven't exactly invented a brain-download device yet.

And there seems to be higher percentage chance of normal mundanes being able to learn how to use military weapons than it is for many lacking "the spark" to become potent ki-users and magic users.

Just because it's far harder to learn, does not disqualify the ability to manipulate ki as being a learnable skill set. It just means that someone who wants to learn how to make beams come out of their body just has to put in more effort than someone who just wants to able to shoot straight.
And what is this "spark" you speak of? It's only magical reserves which have been stated as something that you're born with, and even then, that's expandable via training.

 

[Crusader]

Can normal people fight them?

"Normal people" can be a generalized and broad definition after all.

Without anything to indicate the country of origin, we have to take "normal people" as being the average human being for the entire of Earth's population. Given that only 8 nations have more than 100 trained personnel per capita, we can take it as trained people as being the minority.

Well learning how to use military weaponry can be defined as learning from experience and training how to operate them at the best of your own ability.

And how is that different from picking up any other skill set, say, I don't know, ki manipulation? We haven't exactly invented a brain-download device yet.

And there seems to be higher percentage chance of normal mundanes being able to learn how to use military weapons than it is for many lacking "the spark" to become potent ki-users and magic users.

Just because it's far harder to learn, does not disqualify the ability to manipulate ki as being a learnable skill set. It just means that someone who wants to learn how to make beams come out of their body just has to put in more effort than someone who just wants to able to shoot straight.
And what is this "spark" you speak of? It's only magical reserves which have been stated as something that you're born with, and even then, that's expandable via training.[/quote]
You do state some noteworthy points here, Echo 8, about trained personnel being capable of handling weapons being a minority compared to the civilian masses.

Isn't the ability to utilize magic or harness internal energies (ki) what makes a large part of the MSN special and worthy of notice?

As you said yourself it is easier and takes less effort to practice basic marksmanship than intense manipulation of internal energies that could be more physically and mentally intensive, and not everyone would be willing to take up their time for learning to manipulate ki.

You know like "the spark" that makes force sensitives able to utilize the Force that surrounds all living things and makes them different to the non-force sensitives who despite being surrounded by the Force can't manipulate it like the force sensitives can.

 

[Patrick_Gleason]

Can normal people fight them?

And then those acolytes and magi followers should now how to to work an infrastructure and administrating conquered territory. They would probably make key targets for assassination, but the fear severe reprisals would probably make many hesitate.

That's the point. They could take the mage in charge of America, but Eva wouldn't be happy when she heard that. And then, Cosmic Catastrophe for all.

I think what Lord Raine is trying to say, is that the skills required to drive a tank or fly a plane is not found in the average person, just like the skills required to manipulate ki. Normal does not include trained military personnel until there is such a time where the majority of the world's population has undergone military training.

And I believe that the "real world human" thing has been said enough times already. I can point at least one hundred people than can pilot a tank. Can you show me a real world human that can use ki?

You now have each acolyte having to personally keep 5000 people in line. All the time, without rest, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
The elements of society that used to enforce laws and maintain order (the police) no longer have the authority to do so, so they can't help.
Eva can't help, because she's now stuck in an office somewhere handling the administrative duties required to keep the country running, and is probably overwhelmed by it all since she's doing the work that used to be performed by dozens if not hundreds of people.

Obviously, the number of acolytes would be way higher. And who said the police wouldn't have authority anymore? They would be under the authority of the new government, yes, but I don't see any reason to extinct the police.

I could argue that half of the 5000 people are children, or old people, or invalids that could be used as hostages, and that a medium level mage has a high survivability against most of the attacks normal humans could perform. I could argue that said normal humans wouldn't find the high caliber weapons needed to take out a medium-level mage so easily. That, even if the assassination attempt is successful, it will be only in a small area, and that a small battalion of high-tech robots equipped with lasers would be coming in shortly, or in the worst case, a very pissed off Vampire Queen. I could argue that Eva has a small army of super-robots as maids and that they could administer the whole world if needed. That Eva would never spent her time stuck in a office somewhere handling the administrative duties. Hell, that Eva could even do as the Romans, and leave local powers, like the President of the United States, in charge, witth the condition that hey would lick her boots when she feels like it. But you know what? That would be too troublesome.

The Americans can "kill you, or your family, or turn them to stone, or vaporize them or crush your city or burn an entire forest." The populations of Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan didn't all exactly turn into peaceful, obedient sheep, did they?

Are you really saying that your average marine can fly, throw magic arrows, transport through shadows, and make fire rain from the skies with no more than a few greek words? That he can regenerate a hole through the chest? That he can control a puppet army of more than 300 hundred with no more than his two hands? Than he can freeze an entire city to the absolute zero in less than two minutes?

Exactly. Ki is a skill, not a gift. The only reason to keep ki out of the Muggle side is if you argue that it's a skill a normal person wouldn't possess. But the problem is, normal people don't know how to operate military hardware, either. So if you axe one, the other goes too.

Where it's been said, exactly, that ki is a "skill" and magic a "gift"? Because, from what I read from the manga, people like Takamichi are exceptions, not rules.

And what is this "spark" you speak of? It's only magical reserves which have been stated as something that you're born with, and even then, that's expandable via training.

Wrong. Eva ever said that you had to born with any kind og "gift" to use magic. Just that high magical reserves are something that you're born with and that you can't expand it via training. Negi and Konoka are special not because they can use magic, but because they can use lots of it without exhausting themselves. Here.

The problem is, the moment someone start using "ki" and "magic" they aren't "muggles" anymore. They're, as Chisame so charmingly puts it, freaks. And we're talking about "muggles x freaks" here.

 

[Lord Raine]

Can normal people fight them?

I can point at least one hundred people than can pilot a tank.

Good for you. Know what you can't do? Point to those same people and also call them normal. They aren't. They possess extraordinary knowledge, not ordinary knowledge.

Can you show me a real world human that can use ki?

Can you show me a mage? They don't exist either. This argument is crap, because it's yet another double standard. I will, for the sake of the example, give you the idea that it's IRL colliding with a highly specific subelement of the Negimaverse. Fine. Now explain to me how you expect two universes to collide and not have bleedover?

Your argument is, in essence, "Ki isn't real IRL." Well guess what? Neither is magic. If your argument is that the Muggles can't use ki because it isn't real, then the moment the mages set foot in IRL, they're going to get knocked down to Muggles as well, because magic isn't real IRL either. In which case it's an overwhelming victory for the Muggles, who's opponents are basically a bunch of normal people dressed funnily who keep gesturing wildly in the air and shouting phrases in dead languages.

Your argument is basically that it's something innate to the Negimaverse that makes ki and magic possible. That's fine. I have no problem with that. But if the Negimaverse connections with IRL, one of two things is going to happen.

1.) It'll bleed over. Suddenly, IRL people (read: Muggles) can use magic and ki. Or, inversely, IRL will bleed over into Negima, killing off magic and ki.

2.) The two verses remain separate, operating under their own local laws and rules of reality. In which case the moment a mage steps out of the Negimaverse and into IRL, all their magic stops working, because magic doesn't work IRL.


It doesn't matter how you slice it. Either the Negimaverse bleeds over into IRL and Muggles gain access to ki (and magic, though for the sake of the OP argument, let's say they don't for some random reason), the Muggledom bleeds over into the Negimaverse and kills off magic and ki, or the two verses remain separate and internally consistent, which means any mages who cross over are instantly smacked upside the head with Muggledom? themselves.

 

[Dark Knight Gafgar]

Can normal people fight them?

I can point at least one hundred people than can pilot a tank.

Good for you. Know what you can't do? Point to those same people and also call them normal. They aren't. They possess extraordinary knowledge, not ordinary knowledge.

No, they possess common fucking sense, something which you apparently lack.

How do you drive a tank? It's quite simple. TURN THE FUCKING WHEEL AND APPLY THE FUCKING GAS. JUST LIKE DRIVING A CAR (though you probably wouldn't know anything about that, would you?). They're not going to make it needlessly complicated for no bloody reason!

 

[Lord Raine]

Can normal people fight them?

I can point at least one hundred people than can pilot a tank.

Good for you. Know what you can't do? Point to those same people and also call them normal. They aren't. They possess extraordinary knowledge, not ordinary knowledge.

No, they possess common fucking sense, something which you apparently lack.

How do you drive a tank? It's quite simple. TURN THE FUCKING WHEEL AND APPLY THE FUCKING GAS. JUST LIKE DRIVING A CAR (though you probably wouldn't know anything about that, would you?). They're not going to make it needlessly complicated for no bloody reason!

Lol critical research failure. Have you ever been in a tank? Or the cockpit of a jet? I have (my brother-in-law = Win?). Unless you're trained to know what the hell you're doing, you aren't going to do shit.

 

[Patrick_Gleason]

Can normal people fight them?

Okay, I was trying to be calm and rational up to this point, but...

Can you show me a mage? They don't exist either.

That's the entire point, dumbass!. It's Muggles x Mages. Muggles as in Real World People. A Real World People can't use fucking ki. The same way they can't use magic. But guess what? Real World People can pilot tanks, airplanes and build nuclear weapons. Do you want me to draw it for you?

Your argument is, in essence, "Ki isn't real IRL." Well guess what? Neither is magic.

Oh, really? Did you just discovered it?

And who, for God's sake, said anything about "bleeding"? Or setting foot in the real world? It's a hypothetical question, not the plot of a fic or anything. But you really want to complicate things, don't you? Just imagine a Real World Army and a Negiverse Mage Army facing off in a neutral plane, if you need it, but please, stop walking in circles.

 

[biigoh]

Can normal people fight them?

No, they possess common fucking sense, something which you apparently lack.

How do you drive a tank? It's quite simple. TURN THE FUCKING WHEEL AND APPLY THE FUCKING GAS. JUST LIKE DRIVING A CAR (though you probably wouldn't know anything about that, would you?). They're not going to make it needlessly complicated for no bloody reason!

Lol critical research failure. Have you ever been in a tank? Or the cockpit of a jet? I have (my brother-in-law = Win?). Unless you're trained to know what the hell you're doing, you aren't going to do shit.

Actually, driving a tank is like driving a car. You CAN guess what does what, but you'd be a bloody hazard for quite some time while driving like that.

Driving a tank isn't half as complicated like piloting a jet is.

On the other hand, I know or rather knew ALOT of people who could use automatic weapons, could drive tanks... being from Singapore and all.

I think that's one thing that North America needs along with a working health care plan. A mandatory draft into the military forces at the age of 16-18 for 2 or so years. And then a reserve army training every year for a week or two to ensure that men stay fit and maintain their fighting capability.

 

[Dark Knight Gafgar]

Can normal people fight them?

Have you ever been in a tank? Or the cockpit of a jet?

Yes to both. I've never driven a tank or flown an aircraft, but I've seen the controls of both up close and been in the drivers seat of an Abrams at a museum. Though what aircraft have to do with what I was discussing is beyond me. As for a tank, operating it is not too dissimilar from driving a car. There are if course differences, but anyone with a modicum of common sense (read: not you) can figure it out in a minute or two.

 

[Echo 8]

Can normal people fight them?

And then those acolytes and magi followers should now how to to work an infrastructure and administrating conquered territory. They would probably make key targets for assassination, but the fear severe reprisals would probably make many hesitate.

That's the point. They could take the mage in charge of America, but Eva wouldn't be happy when she heard that. And then, Cosmic Catastrophe for all.

In a total war scenario, there's always someone dumb/crazy enough to take action regardless of the consequences.

I think what Lord Raine is trying to say, is that the skills required to drive a tank or fly a plane is not found in the average person, just like the skills required to manipulate ki. Normal does not include trained military personnel until there is such a time where the majority of the world's population has undergone military training.

And I believe that the "real world human" thing has been said enough times already. I can point at least one hundred people than can pilot a tank. Can you show me a real world human that can use ki?

Ki is basically life force. Therefore, by being alive, any real world human actively uses ki.

You now have each acolyte having to personally keep 5000 people in line. All the time, without rest, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
The elements of society that used to enforce laws and maintain order (the police) no longer have the authority to do so, so they can't help.
Eva can't help, because she's now stuck in an office somewhere handling the administrative duties required to keep the country running, and is probably overwhelmed by it all since she's doing the work that used to be performed by dozens if not hundreds of people.

Obviously, the number of acolytes would be way higher. And who said the police wouldn't have authority anymore? They would be under the authority of the new government, yes, but I don't see any reason to extinct the police.

It was a response to the statement that a "handful of acolytes" was all that was needed to maintain control over a country. Any higher, and it isn't a handful any more.

The police would lose their authority because the people who gave them that authority in the first place are no longer in charge. This means that their authority is no longer legitimate.
For them to retain that authority, they'd have to a) side with the mages (actively help or desire to), and b) be granted that authority again by the new government. In the scenario I was working with, nobody was siding with the mages in numbers big enough to matter. Surely, you wouldn't have people working against you in a position of power, would you?

The Americans can "kill you, or your family, or turn them to stone, or vaporize them or crush your city or burn an entire forest." The populations of Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan didn't all exactly turn into peaceful, obedient sheep, did they?

Are you really saying that your average marine can fly, throw magic arrows, transport through shadows, and make fire rain from the skies with no more than a few greek words? That he can regenerate a hole through the chest? That he can control a puppet army of more than 300 hundred with no more than his two hands? Than he can freeze an entire city to the absolute zero in less than two minutes?

Note that in my original post, I struck out anything not achievable with technology. You are putting words in my mouth, never once did I imply that they were magical.

Exactly. Ki is a skill, not a gift. The only reason to keep ki out of the Muggle side is if you argue that it's a skill a normal person wouldn't possess. But the problem is, normal people don't know how to operate military hardware, either. So if you axe one, the other goes too.

Where it's been said, exactly, that ki is a "skill" and magic a "gift"? Because, from what I read from the manga, people like Takamichi are exceptions, not rules.

The concept of ki is important to many forms of real-world martial arts.

And what is this "spark" you speak of? It's only magical reserves which have been stated as something that you're born with, and even then, that's expandable via training.

Wrong. Eva ever said that you had to born with any kind og "gift" to use magic. Just that high magical reserves are something that you're born with and that you can't expand it via training. Negi and Konoka are special not because they can use magic, but because they can use lots of it without exhausting themselves. Here.

I had assumed that static magical reseves was more or less retconned away due to the escalating power levels.

The problem is, the moment someone start using "ki" and "magic" they aren't "muggles" anymore. They're, as Chisame so charmingly puts it, freaks. And we're talking about "muggles x freaks" here.

Everyone has the potential to use ki. It's just life energy. In fact, if they aren't using ki, it's because they are no longer alive. It's just that due to the differing mechanics in Negima, people can have overt displays of ki usage.

And who, for God's sake, said anything about "bleeding"? Or setting foot in the real world? It's a hypothetical question, not the plot of a fic or anything. But you really want to complicate things, don't you? Just imagine a Real World Army and a Negiverse Mage Army facing off in a neutral plane, if you need it, but please, stop walking in circles.

It's your own fault for being too open ended with the setting. Without you being specific enough, we've taken your original question as having what we consider the real world, taking the place of the mundanes within the Negima universe. As such, being that we are now governed by Negimaverse mechanics rather Real World mechanics, we would have been right to assume that we now have the potential to gain any abilities a Negimaverse-mundane can. Namely overt displays of ki manipulation.

Taking your new parameters in account, I'd have to say that there is no chance whatsoever that a "Real World Army" would win. The only possible advantage they have is numbers, and even then the difference isn't large enough to matter. Barring massive incompetence on their part, it should be a cakewalk for the mages.

 

[Patrick_Gleason]

Can normal people fight them?

In a total war scenario, there's always someone dumb/crazy enough to take action regardless of the consequences.

Maybe. But that doesn't change the outcome. Eva still would be there, pissed off (Or amused) and with enough firepower to destroy a small country effortlessly.

Ki is basically life force. Therefore, by being alive, any real world human actively uses ki.

Nice. Now show me a human that can use said life force to fire a destructive beam from his body. You know, perfectly well, that that's the "ki" we're talking about here.

The police would lose their authority because the people who gave them that authority in the first place are no longer in charge. This means that their authority is no longer legitimate

Again, has it ever been said that the mages would take the authority from police? They would just be under a new administration, so to speak. It's pretty normal to leave the previous institutions unharmed when you conquer a country, by the way, to make assimilation easier. Romans made it all the time, Hitler made it in France...

Note that in my original post, I struck out anything not achievable with technology. You are putting words in my mouth, never once did I imply that they were magical.

No, I'm not. I'm just pointing that "Americans" aren't nowhere as terrible as Eva can be, nor as powerful, and they're thousands of people. Eva is a single person. Send an army to destroy a city, with missiles, airplanes, tanks, guns and all that is one thing. Destroy the same city in a ten year old body with just a few words is completely different

The concept of ki is important to many forms of real-world martial arts.

That doesn't answer my question. And the concept of "magic" is important to many religions like Wicca and Vodun. That doesn't make it any more real.

I had assumed that static magical reserves was more or less retconned away due to the escalating power levels.

Until that's clearly stated in the manga, there was no retcon. Officially, they're just learning to use that energy better, instead of wasting it on the simplest of the spells. So, Magic isn't a "gift", anymore than Ki is.

Everyone has the potential to use ki. It's just life energy. In fact, if they aren't using ki, it's because they are no longer alive. It's just that due to the differing mechanics in Negima, people can have overt displays of ki usage.

And everyone has the potential to use magic. But I'll say this again: Muggles CAN'T use any of those. Because it's MUGGLES x MAGES. And if they starting using this kind of Mysterious Energies, they won't count as fucking muggles anymore. Gods, what's so hard to understand about it?

It's your own fault for being too open ended with the setting.

I didn't make the original question. Not that the setting doesn't matter, apply the Negima-verse laws if you want. It's still Mages x Muggles, and anyone that makes feats impossible for Real World people don't count as muggles. They have to do with plain old technology. In other words, they're screwed. i was discussing with someone if, since open war isn't an option, assassination attempts would work, when all this stupid discussion began.

 

[Crusader]

Can normal people fight them?

I didn't make the original question. Not that the setting doesn't matter, apply the Negima-verse laws if you want. It's still Mages x Muggles, and anyone that makes feats impossible for Real World people don't count as muggles. They have to do with plain old technology. In other words, they're screwed. i was discussing with someone if, since open war isn't an option, assassination attempts would work, when all this stupid discussion began.

It seems like even elite soldiers on par with fictional groups like Rainbow from Rainbow Six and the Ghosts from Ghost Recon would have pretty slim chances against upper-tier mages like Evangeline unless there was something that could neutralize or weaken their powers. Basically it would be a million-to-one-chance.

They have a chance against low-power magic-users and ki-users, but would probably suffer heavy casualties facing the mid-level ones unless they have some good tactics and support like artillery and air support.

 

[Patrick_Gleason]

Can normal people fight them?

but would probably suffer heavy casualties facing the mid-level ones unless they have some good tactics and support like artillery and air support.

I think that a well positioned sniper, with a suicide team to distract the mage's attetion, could work. But that's just ONE shot. Miss it, and she will be ready next time.