Evangelion Neon Genesis Eidolon

Crusader

Well-Known Member
#52
It seems like an intriguing AU fic where you try to add another faction who like those behind Jet-Alone and Project Trident try build their own power base and counterweapon or possible replacement for the Evangelions who despite their size and power certainly are logistical nightmares when it comes to power consumption and maintainance and repairs.

What about having some Eidolons converted into literal suicide bombers by using a dummy plug and inserting an inner high-yield kiloton N2 bomb by gutting some of the insides?
 
#53
Crusader said:
It seems like an intriguing AU fic where you try to add another faction who like those behind Jet-Alone and Project Trident try build their own power base and counterwaepon or possible replacement for the Evangelions who despite their size and power certainly are logistical nightmares when it comes to power consumption and maintainance and repairs.

What about having some Eidolons converted into literal suicide bombers by using a dummy plug and inserting an inner high-yield kiloton N2 bomb by gutting some of the insides?
One benefit of the Eidolons being more organic in construction than Evas is that they can heal, which reduces their mechanical maintenance requirements somewhat. However, the Eidolons are still very big, very advanced, and very expensive biomechanical combat units.

Essentially, you could build two, maybe three Eidolons per Evangelion, but that's still a third of a small country's GDP.
 

Da-Guru

Well-Known Member
#54
I had seriously debated doing the Eidolon project as a subset of the SGC, just because of the expense involved and the potential of having he IOA set up in direct opposition to Seele. But then I realized that Azgard plasma beam weapons would probably trump any AT Field technology. Sooooo...
 

Crusader

Well-Known Member
#55
Andrew Joshua Talon said:
Crusader said:
It seems like an intriguing AU fic where you try to add another faction who like those behind Jet-Alone and Project Trident try build their own power base and counterwaepon or possible replacement for the Evangelions who despite their size and power certainly are logistical nightmares when it comes to power consumption and maintainance and repairs.

What about having some Eidolons converted into literal suicide bombers by using a dummy plug and inserting an inner high-yield kiloton N2 bomb by gutting some of the insides?
One benefit of the Eidolons being more organic in construction than Evas is that they can heal, which reduces their mechanical maintenance requirements somewhat. However, the Eidolons are still very big, very advanced, and very expensive biomechanical combat units.

Essentially, you could build two, maybe three Eidolons per Evangelion, but that's still a third of a small country's GDP.
Even then someone could see an Eidolon model as a more economical alternative to an Evangelion.

Will there be only general all-purpose models, or can there be specialized models like for instance Hunter-Killer Eidolons meant for close combat who instead of human-like hands have been genetically modified to grow big claws?
 
#56
Crusader said:
Andrew Joshua Talon said:
Crusader said:
It seems like an intriguing AU fic where you try to add another faction who like those behind Jet-Alone and Project Trident try build their own power base and counterwaepon or possible replacement for the Evangelions who despite their size and power certainly are logistical nightmares when it comes to power consumption and maintainance and repairs.

What about having some Eidolons converted into literal suicide bombers by using a dummy plug and inserting an inner high-yield kiloton N2 bomb by gutting some of the insides?
One benefit of the Eidolons being more organic in construction than Evas is that they can heal, which reduces their mechanical maintenance requirements somewhat. However, the Eidolons are still very big, very advanced, and very expensive biomechanical combat units.

Essentially, you could build two, maybe three Eidolons per Evangelion, but that's still a third of a small country's GDP.
Even then someone could see an Eidolon model as a more economical alternative to an Evangelion.

Will there be only general all-purpose models, or can there be specialized models like for instance Hunter-Killer Eidolons meant for close combat who instead of human-like hands have been genetically modified to grow big claws?
There was one basic prototype design for the Eidolons, which led to five distinct models, all sourced from the entity codenamed Samael (which may or may not be aware of what is going on, and is therefore allowing the humans to use it for it's own purposes).

The Americans initiated joint secret programs with a number of other nations, with strict secrecy and disinformation to keep the Eidolons from being discovered by SEELE operatives. Thanks to people like Kaji, who have been working against SEELE for a long time, SEELE has been denied just enough governmental power in a number of nations for the Eidolons to be constructed. The Americans provided access to Samael and the prototype Eidolon they had created as well as information they had obtained from NERV, and the other nations constructed their own takes on the Eidolons based upon this information. The other nations also sent back their own findings on their Eidolons which allowed the US to construct their second Eidolons for about 40 percent less money than the prototype had required.

The US prototype (Advanced Bio Mechanical Unit-0) and the subsequent model (ABMU-02, codenamed "Nemesis") is the most generalistic type of Eidolon, and the closest to a standard Evangelion. It's fixed armaments are a pair of progressive knives and that's it. It does, however, include hardpoints on it's back, shoulders, legs and arms to carry a wide variety of weapons. It is also strong enough to handle weapons from oversized gatling cannons, to positron rifles and missile launchers. It's greatest attributes are it's strength and endurance, and therefore is the closest to a general purpose model as an Eidolon can get.

The Canadian model (ABMU-03, codenamed "Oblivion") was built with speed in mind. It is a very streamlined, very fast model, with special nanofiber surfaces on it's feet to give it almost perfect traction. It is lighter than the ABMU-02, and has less armor and less strength than Nemesis as a result. But, these tradeoffs allow it to break the sound barrier while running full-tilt, and thanks to the nanofiber technology, it can harness the van der Waals force (better known as surface tension) to run across water and turn on a dime as long as it's advanced battery systems last. Carrying light armaments like Metal Storm mecha-sized handcannons and progressive knives, the Oblivion is intended for hit-and-run attacks, strafing, and fast response warfare.

The United Kingdom version (ABMU-04, codenamed "Prometheus") is also built slight and fast, but for a different purpose. It is built to be more agile than fast, and extremely stealthy. Well, as stealthy as a giant robot can get. In addition to sound dampeners and other passive stealth systems, it has another advantage: The same nanofiber technology the Oblivion uses is applied to the ABMU-04's skin, but is used in a different way. Running an electrical current through the nanofibers renders Prometheus virtually invisible as the light is ever so slightly bent around it. This same stealth technology is applied to it's progressive sword. With the extra traction granted by the nanofibers, Prometheus can cling to any surface at any angle, essentially rendering it an oversized ninja. However, running the active stealth system requires a fair amount of energy, and the unit is only truly invisible so long as it isn't moving. When it does move, distortions in the air appear. Hence why the Prometheus is designed to be quick and agile, and thanks to the positioning of it's entry plug near it's center of gravity (around the stomach), the pilot has a much better sense of balance, allowing him to make Prometheus perform acrobatic feats other biomechs simply can't do.

The Russian version (ABMU-06, codenamed "Perun") has the attributes of the best Russian military technology: Big, comparatively crude, but reliable, tough and strong. They cloned Perun with strength and size in mind, and as a result it stands 5 percent taller than the prototype. It has the thickest armor and greatest muscular strength of all the Eidolons save ABMU-05, and wields the biggest, heaviest weapons. It's most powerful weapon is an N2 Hammer. Using an N2 generation system, the hammer contained a quantity of matter and antimatter, several atoms of which are contained in a special field around the head of the weapon. When the hammer is brought down upon a target, a portion of the matter and anti-matter are released together, producing a powerful energy blast from the point of contact. It's not as strong as a true N2 bomb, but the blast helps considerably in penetrating thick armor and even AT fields. The Hammer, however, is a very, VERY expensive weapons system and due to the danger in it's use (that could result in the destruction of the entire Eidolon if it is not used properly), the N2 component of the weapon is rarely used.

The Israeli version, ABMU-05 ("Morningstar") is the only flight capable version, and due to... Certain aspects of it's construction and it's pilot, has the most powerful AT Field. It's fingers and toes are claws, and with the increase in strength and stamina required for it to fly, it can match even an Evangelion in raw strength. More often than not, it is referred to as "Chernabog" due to it's resemblance to the Fantasia character. It's demonic appearance inspires nightmares, which is part of it's power.
 

Crusader

Well-Known Member
#57
Interesting that you seem to have added some realism here by having each of the five nations here use their own mecha doctrine, like in RL where most of the nations mentioned here had different tank doctrines and/or design approach when it comes to mobility, protection and firepower.

The flyer model seems to be the most dangerous once since it can both fight on land and air and seems to be designed to demoralize human opposition, but it could also be the most complex and expensive machine to maintain.
 
#58
Crusader said:
Interesting that you seem to have added some realism here by having each of the five nations here use their own mecha doctrine, like in RL where most of the nations mentioned here had different tank doctrines and/or design approach when it comes to mobility, protection and firepower.

The flyer model seems to be the most dangerous once since it can both fight on land and air and seems to be designed to demoralize human opposition, but it could also be the most complex and expensive machine to maintain.
It is, but it works due to the unique nature of it's pilot. The Isrealis studied NERV's cloning technology extensively (well, what they could get of it). They reasoned that, if Samael was this close genetically to humans, then control over Samael would be much easier if the pilot had aspects of Samael and a human.

So, they pulled a Rei Ayanami, which is what allowed them to make Morningstar the Eidolon with the closest direct relation to Samael himself. And potentially, the most powerful Eidolon.
 

Da-Guru

Well-Known Member
#59
Uhh, hate to burst your bubble there Talon, but an Eidolon's gonna need a LOT more than some fancy shoes and an AT field to walk on water.

Doing some basic math, you'd need approximately the same acreage in an AT field as an aircraft carrier to support an eidolon or Eva running full tilt on the open ocean. I didn't bitch so much in the show because they DID sink most of the ships they used as stepping stones and nearly sunk the Over the Rainbow when they landed on it. I guess this is the problem with actually knowing the equations for all the stuff that they're talking about.

If you're wondering, I can also attempt to explain what the Dirac Sea is...I'd have to take some headache meds first. Cause that explanation is a doosey.
 
#62
Da-Guru said:
Uhh, hate to burst your bubble there Talon, but an Eidolon's gonna need a LOT more than some fancy shoes and an AT field to walk on water.

Doing some basic math, you'd need approximately the same acreage in an AT field as an aircraft carrier to support an eidolon or Eva running full tilt on the open ocean. I didn't bitch so much in the show because they DID sink most of the ships they used as stepping stones and nearly sunk the Over the Rainbow when they landed on it. I guess this is the problem with actually knowing the equations for all the stuff that they're talking about.

If you're wondering, I can also attempt to explain what the Dirac Sea is...I'd have to take some headache meds first. Cause that explanation is a doosey.
I wouldn't mind a way for an Eidolon to run over the water. Can you think of anything that could allow it to do that?

As for the Dirac Sea, sure! I'd love to hear about it.

What happened to ABMU-01?
It was a prototype production-model Eidolon created by a competing design group and facility. Ultimately, the project... Ended badly, and the mecha was put into cold storage. ABMU-02 went on to become the design for the production model.
 

Da-Guru

Well-Known Member
#63
Ok, the running over water could be accomplished by expanding an AT field to repel the water under the Eidolon. The user would be using that to essentially float the same way a boat does. The mass of the water they have to displace would have to equal the mass of the Eidolon plus whatever air happens to be inside the actual AT field. If you want them near the surface, you'd have to make it pretty big, since bones, flesh, carbon nanofiber, and metals are MUCH denser than water.

As for the Dirac Sea, Ritsuko wasn't kidding when she said it was defined by Theoretical Mathematics. The Dirac Sea is a 30th Dimensional object. You see, in 4 dimensions like we see and 12 like we use in Quantum mechanics, points can only exist at one set of coordinates. However in 30 dimensions, the shortest distance between two points is for them to be the same point, in some strange mathematical quandry that I barely understand the concept of, much less am capable of calculating. In other words, you get a Schrodinger's cat scenario: where a single particle exists in two separate states. Only observing the particle itself causes it to take one state or the other. Of course, causing such a phenomena to occur on the macroscopic scale is statistically impossible, being about (and this is just me shooting out really big numbers) one in ten to the biggest real number you can think of annual probability of exceedance. In actual, physical terms, this means that we'd never, ever, ever, ever expect to see this happen. This is the sort of thing we'd expect only to happen when everything else has happened a thousand or so times, after what we'd call the end of the universe in the big chill and the last of even the brown dwarf stars and black holes have evaporated into mere dust.

How can I explain this timescale I'm talking about here? Let's take a fraction of a second. Ok, that amount of time after the Big Bang was the first 10 or so epochs of quantum development in the universe. That's the time it took for the first protons and neutrons to form. Multiply that time times 10. Now the first atoms are forming. As we move forward, each period of universal development is actually exponentially longer than the one before it. The kind of event that would cause an object the size of an Eva to exist at two places at once wouldn't happen, most likely, until the 100th stage of universal development or so, TRILLIONS OF YEARS after the stars have burned out and the Black Holes have evaporated into dust.

My current theory is that the S2 Engine is actually more in common with Douglas Adams' Infinite Improbability Drive. It causes highly improbable events to occur, such as externalizing the entire electron field of a mass and producing a GIANT FREAKING ATOM that you can see with the naked eye or causing whole buildings and a freaking Eva to exist at two points. When the scientists mucked around with the first one they found, it blew them sky high and caused a bunch more of them to show up. Adam may in fact be a remnant or a species from another, dying universe that feed off of pure entropy. Then I remind myself that this is a freaking anime, smack myself, and yell at myself to stop analyzing so much and go with it.

On second thought, I think I might have just made the Angels a LOT more frightening for me.








....cool!!!
 
#64
... Wow. You sir, are much, much smarter than I am. Thanks for this, this is very fascinating! I had no idea about any of this! And all of this is said without an ounce of sarcasm; I love learning new things.

Okay, so, I still need a pilot for ABMU-06. And I could use some ideas for what happens to ABMU-01. I'm thinking it goes rogue or is stolen for nefarious purposes, which is what leads to the Eidolons being revealed to the world.
 

Da-Guru

Well-Known Member
#65
:blush:

Thank you. But as much Buffyspeak was in that diatribe up there, I still used a few technical terms, for lack of anything that accurately described the phenomena I was trying to discuss. Even then, I had to avoid the actual numbers because the scales we're talking about are just THAT BIG.
 
#66
Da-Guru said:
:blush:

Thank you. But as much Buffyspeak was in that diatribe up there, I still used a few technical terms, for lack of anything that accurately described the phenomena I was trying to discuss. Even then, I had to avoid the actual numbers because the scales we're talking about are just THAT BIG.
True, but all the same, it's very helpful and interesting.

So! Any thoughts on the issues of the story and characters?
 

Da-Guru

Well-Known Member
#67
Yes, actually. I was thinking about this program's equivalent of Rei. Well, I was thinking that we already have a highly philosophic, vaguely ho-yay distaff counterpart in Kaworu. So the quiet type has already been done. I was thinking, "Why do they have to be 'alien'? Why can't they fit in better? Hrm? A lack of understanding of human nature does not preclude the ability to relate to people or get along with them."

So, I thought that the Eidolon project's counterpart to Rei could be more like the modern depictions of the Devil himself. He could be suave and debonair. He could be quite the Casanova. And he could also be a sociopath. The image I actually have is based on one of my ex roommates. He is a self-described sociopath. In work situations, he goes out of his way to be nice and accommodating to people. He only shows his temper around people that he trusts. I won't say too much more about this guy, in particular. He's still a friend of mine.

So yeah, a more "devilish" angel boy. I'd suggest you take Niel Gaiman's Lucifer as the model. And maybe mix in a little Albedo.

Albedo Japanese
Albedo in English

Yeah, Albedo's just that awesome...and crazy.
 

Crusader

Well-Known Member
#68
Andrew Joshua Talon said:
Crusader said:
Interesting that you seem to have added some realism here by having each of the five nations here use their own mecha doctrine, like in RL where most of the nations mentioned here had different tank doctrines and/or design approach when it comes to mobility, protection and firepower.

The flyer model seems to be the most dangerous once since it can both fight on land and air and seems to be designed to demoralize human opposition, but it could also be the most complex and expensive machine to maintain.
It is, but it works due to the unique nature of it's pilot. The Israelis studied NERV's cloning technology extensively (well, what they could get of it). They reasoned that, if Samael was this close genetically to humans, then control over Samael would be much easier if the pilot had aspects of Samael and a human.

So, they pulled a Rei Ayanami, which is what allowed them to make Morningstar the Eidolon with the closest direct relation to Samael himself. And potentially, the most powerful Eidolon.
Are there any truly hazardous dangers of piloting ABMU-05? Like greater chance of early Eidolon instability like with prototype model Eva 00, or that this Eidolon is more than willing to absorb more than one person into it or try to possess its pilots?
 
#69
Da-Guru said:
Yes, actually. I was thinking about this program's equivalent of Rei. Well, I was thinking that we already have a highly philosophic, vaguely ho-yay distaff counterpart in Kaworu. So the quiet type has already been done. I was thinking, "Why do they have to be 'alien'? Why can't they fit in better? Hrm? A lack of understanding of human nature does not preclude the ability to relate to people or get along with them."

So, I thought that the Eidolon project's counterpart to Rei could be more like the modern depictions of the Devil himself. He could be suave and debonair. He could be quite the Casanova. And he could also be a sociopath. The image I actually have is based on one of my ex roommates. He is a self-described sociopath. In work situations, he goes out of his way to be nice and accommodating to people. He only shows his temper around people that he trusts. I won't say too much more about this guy, in particular. He's still a friend of mine.

So yeah, a more "devilish" angel boy. I'd suggest you take Niel Gaiman's Lucifer as the model. And maybe mix in a little Albedo.

Albedo Japanese
Albedo in English

Yeah, Albedo's just that awesome...and crazy.
This is him:

David Samuel Diener-Pilot of Morningstar

1: Was born and raised in the Har Megiddo Azrael Project Base, under careful supervision by Head Scientist Hannah Diener, who was his guardian. Despite some protests from a few other project members (and the boy himself), he was raised in the Jewish tradition and underwent a bar mitzfah upon turning 13. The only reason he went with it was because of Dr. Diener's daughter, Abigail, who promised to help him study every step of the way.

2: Intensely dislikes nearly everyone around him, as he grew up with most of the people around him poking and prodding him and regarding him as a potential threat. The only people he truly cares about are Dr. Diener, and Abigail. The latter receiving a bit more of his attention as of late than the former.

3: Quickly mastered the operation of Morningstar (ABMMU-05), at least in simulations. Compared to the other pilots, he easily held the highest synch ratio and the highest amount of time in simulations. However, he dislikes synching at too high a level with the dark Eidolon-He likens it to "the abyss staring back" at him. He thus has spent a great deal of time trying to mess up his synch ratio. Singing Disney songs in his head seems to do the trick, as much as they disgust him.

4: Probably the best thing about Morningstar is that it is the first Eidolon to have flight capability. While he has not flown a great deal due to fears of SEELE espionage, every time has been one of the happiest moments in his life. Though he stubbornly maintains Abigail giving him his first kiss as number one... For now.
David here comports himself kind of like a demon lord-He's cocky, aggressive, pragmatic and commanding. Pretty much the only people he cares about personally are Dr. Diener (his mother figure) and Abigail (whom he regards as his consort). He would burn the entire world and kill everyone in it for Abigail, who has been his closest companion since he was born. And he wouldn't do it for her as well.

Though he wouldn't like it. He rather enjoys blowing stuff up and causing horrible death and destruction, and will not do anything unless there's something in it for him to gain. As said, the only exceptions to this are Dr. Diener and Abigail. Especially Abigail, who loves him just as much as he loves her.

I would have him as a foil to Shinji. He enjoys fighting and destroying stuff, and is immensely confident in who he is. But, he also has some fear of his mecha and his nature because he is most afraid of losing control and killing the people he cares about. He's felt Morningstar-The Eidolon is the closest to the demon it was spawned from, and revels in destruction and chaos. He fears being consumed by the parts of him that are purely Samael, and doesn't want to be anything other than himself.
 

Da-Guru

Well-Known Member
#70
Ahh, I see we're on the same page here then.

Please, go on.
 
#71
Well, like I said, I need a pilot for the Russian Eidolon. The-EroSennin has suggested a female super-soldier ala Soma from Gundam 00, but I'd like some more input on other possibilities.

Another thing I'll explore is the Eidolon program's numerous consequences.

Ethon Industries is the corporation that does the most with the Eidolon technology, developing a lot of products that allows it to feed a fair amount of revenue into the Eidolon program. For the most part, they exploit the Eidolon technology for good: Improving crop yields, creating more efficient car engines, more pharmaceuticals. However, I always felt that Evangelion would've been most improved with the addition of a semi-evil megacorporation to serve as a foil to NERV, so Ethon Industries also utilizes the Eidolon tech for less-than-scrupulous purposes.

Among them, trying to create their own artificial Angel (Mayumi from Girlfriend of Steel 2.0), creating cyber-enhanced super soldiers and biomechanical weapons systems and letting a few nations rent them out for extralegal purposes, creating bioweapons... Stuff like that. On one hand, they don't want Third Impact to occur and will do whatever they can do to prevent it. On the other, they have their own agendas as well.

And then there are the Eidolons themselves. Officially, there are only seven when they are revealed to the world. The prototypes ABMU-0 and ABMU-01, and the five production models. ABMU-01 would be hijacked and go on a rampage, hence revealing the existence of the Eidolons to the world.

However, Ethon Industries, feeling that more Eidolons to oppose NERV and SEELE's plans is a good thing, would have given some nations access to some of the Eidolon technology for the purposes of building their own mecha. Ethon Industries makes more money, and these nations get the means to fight SEELE. Unfortunately, this results in some of the wrong people getting their hands on weapons almost as powerful as Evangelions, and the global situation changes very, very quickly.
 

Crusader

Well-Known Member
#73
I have some suggestions for a Russian ABMU-06 pilot, but I'm afraid that they'll not be any good.

One is Illyana, inspired mostly from Illyana Rasputin of the New Mutants, born in Siberia. One of the reasons for her being Perun's pilot was that one of her brothers were chosen to be absorbed by the Eidolon.

Another is Natasha, mostly inspired by Red Aler 3's Natasha Volkova, raised from early childhood by Spetznas military personnel in order to make her the future pilot of the Russian Eidolon model.

BTW: Has there been any official statement by Gainax why Mayumi Yamagishi in Eva: 2nd Impression had an angel core in her?
 
#74
Well Crusader, the Eidolon pilots are supposed to be less... Ya know... Psychologically damaged and warped than the Eva pilots, but with their own issues and personalities. So, they need to be different enough that they provide an effective ensemble, but not so extreme that they're, ya know... Eva pilots.

David Diener is an exception in some ways. He loves to destroy and slaughter his enemies, and he loves to bang his girlfriend and annoy his maternal figure (often at the same time). If SEELE kidnapped his Abigail to use against him, he wouldn't do what they wanted. He'd simply tell them that he was going to kill them all, and if they killed Abigail, the rest of humanity would follow with them. So, they'd have the choice of dying but humanity still existing, or dying and their entire species goes with them. He's that sort of guy. Still, he does train, he does listen when it'd end badly for him not to, and he does obey orders... Most of the time.

Constance Turpin, pilot of the Nemesis, is more of a laid back, worldly girl. Kind of like a teenaged Misato. She drinks, she parties, she has sex and she teases affectionately off-duty. On duty, she is a consummate professional, though she has one problem in that she loves to go berserker with her Eidolon, where the other Eidolon pilots don't enjoy it.

Daniel Oyelowo, pilot of the Prometheus, is a British gentleman and a stickler for the rules. I modeled him after Nicholas Archangel from "Hot Fuzz". He's the most professional of the Eidolon pilots, and hates being embarrassed-So he's got a lot of anger with his crazy father who loved to embarrass him before he was absorbed into Prometheus. Said father wanted him to loosen up-So will Constance and his fellow pilots.

JT Carter, pilot of the Oblivion, is our nerd. A trained nerd, but a nerd nonetheless. He watches anime and plays video games and knows a lot of pop culture that most people don't. He talks a lot when he's nervous, and that's a lot of the time. Speed is Oblivion's main advantage, and JT is well suited in that regard-He has trouble sitting still or paying attention unless things are going really, really fast.

So, what is needed is a pilot who is a good contrast.
 

Crusader

Well-Known Member
#75
Andrew Joshua Talon said:
Well Crusader, the Eidolon pilots are supposed to be less... Ya know... Psychologically damaged and warped than the Eva pilots, but with their own issues and personalities. So, they need to be different enough that they provide an effective ensemble, but not so extreme that they're, ya know... Eva pilots.

So, what is needed is a pilot who is a good contrast.
I see.

A new suggestion I came up with right now is a happy-go-lucky Russian daredevil who loves to test out experimental weapons and technology. Since ABMU-06 appears to be a brawler, she could also be a girl who loves getting into fights just for kicks. She never had a tragic family background or experience but nonetheless became a thrillseeker.

Now all I need is to come up with a name.

What about making Daniel Oyelowo also a firm upholder of principles and that he and his father were very vocal opponents of anti-white racism among immigrants like people with African background in the UK while at the same time showing a critical view of the more extreme anti-immigrant groups, both of them having bad experiences with what they saw as double standards and hypocrisy among immigrant groups.
 
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