Evangelion Neon Genesis Eidolon

#1
Idea, free to a good home. Inspired by these pictures:







According to Jewish lore, in particular the Talmud, Samael was the Evil Angel of Death, as opposed to Gabriel who was the Good Angel of Death. He is known as the angel who took the form of a serpent and tempted Eve, according to other texts. In The Holy Kabbalah, he took Lillith as his bride after she was rejected by Adam. It has been suggested that Samael is the true angelic name of Satan, rather than Lucifer (The Roman name for Venus, the Dawnstar).

My idea is this: What if not all of the Angels in Evangelion were opposed to humanity? And that there were more than just 17 of them. They are the 17 indicated in the Dead Sea Scrolls, but prophecies are not always correctly interpreted.

Samael, in this case, would have rebelled against God or Adam (depending upon your interpretation), perhaps with other Angels. Why has been lost over the ages, but what is known is that Samael and his followers were imprisoned underneath the Atlantic Ocean floor, as the other Angels were unwilling to kill their own kind. Thousands of years, maybe millions of years, later, and after Second Impact, a United States Navy submarine discovers what appears to be a gigantic humanoid lifeform laying on the sea floor.

Now, SEELE has massive control over Earth through the UN, but some factions from various nations in government and the military are not under their thrall. The US Navy, with assistance from other former NATO nations in the utmost secrecy, recover Samael and take him to a secret base in Canada. With help from allied personnel in NERV and a lot of hard work, it is determined that the creature is similar to an Angel, though apparently more bestial, almost demonic.

With the Evangelion Project underway, and these factions suspecting there is more to the UN and SEELE than defending against the Angels, they begin a secret project to create Anti-Evangelions using Samael. The project is codenamed "Eidolon", the Greek word for a ghost or astral double of a person.

Using technology they manage to steal from the Eva program and a lot of ingenuity, the first operational Eidolon, is completed. It is given this codename due to the fact it is smaller than an Eva. However, it has razor sharp teeth, claws, and is far faster and more agile than an Eva. Due to it's apparently demonic origins, however, it is far more difficult to control. Even with most of it's brain lobotomized and controlled, the Eidolon, when activated, is in a nearly constant berserker state. However, one of the scientists on the project theorizes that a human soul might be able to get control of the beast, based on what happened to Yui Ikari and Askura's mother. He thus sacrifices himself, hoping his 14 year old daughter will be able to tame the Eidolon.

How does this alter the Eva timeline? Is it possible that demons are the key to the prevention of Third Impact? And how does SEELE react?
 
#2
Obligatory :huh:

Now that that's out of the way...

It's an interesting idea, but it needs to be fleshed out more. Like who's the scientist, and who's his daughter? Not to mention how many are made, etc.

Now, one of the questions is how does the Eidolon compare to an Eva in battle? Especially how does it's berserker frenzy compare with, say.... Unit 01? And, of course, can they create an 'AT-field?'

Then there's the question of how Samael would react to, say, Lilith or Adam's presence? Would there be a flip-out of enormous proportions?

...

:unsure!:
---
Shinji swore under his breath as the Eidolon's claws dug deeper into his arm. But that was a piddling detail compared to everything else.

"C'mon, c'mon, c'mon!" Mayumi's voice shrieked from the intercom, as her Eidolon Unit Oblivion pulled Shogoki further up the embankment. Not for the first time, Shinji found himself grateful for the existence of the smaller constructs.

The Eidolon slipped on the shredded remains of one of the Mass Produced Evangelions, and both giant monstrosities collapsed in a heap of wounded flesh. Shinji bit down on his lip hard enough to draw blood, trying to keep the scream that wanted to lunge from his chest contained as the gray Lance imbedded in his ribs was jostled violently.

You need to get up. The whisper in his head was more urgent than he'd ever heard her before. Even more than when rampaging Eidolon had attacked NERV a few months ago.

'Why?' He shot back. Shinji honestly didn't get why Yamagishi was so nervous. All the Mass Produced Evas had been torn asunder at their hands - though not without getting their own assaults in, the spear reminded with another stab of pain - and the army neutralized. What was there to run from?

Then he froze, looking at the sky. He recognized the US cargo plane, high up in the atmosphere. He'd seen enough of them over the past few months that he could practically draw it with his eyes closed. But what was one doing here, now? Mayumi had already been dropped off, and one of those carriers was overkill for carrying a bomb of any kind. So why...

A figure dropped from the belly of the cargo plane, shedding pieces of itself as it fell. Shinji zoomed in on the figure as he heard Mayumi's muttered oath. What the hell was...

He didn't need Leliel's whispered answer of 'The Morningstar comes' to identify just what the Americans had dropped in the middle of Tokyo - 3.

The primordial fear that started clawing in his gut was more than enough.

Shinji found a new surge of strength, and clambered back to his feet. Then, after a split second's hesitation, scooped up the Oblivion in his arms and proceeded to run like hell.
---


...for some reason, I find the idea of a half-Angel (Angel host?) being the best to pilot what essentially is a Demon-Eva rather appealing.

And yes, Leliel took a shine to the human boy after rifling through his head and decided to tag along for the ride. Why? For the lulz...

...and because I find the thought of Shinji trying to deal with a gothic loli only he can see, whose only knowledge of human behavior is ancient by Roman standards, highly amusing. To say nothing of the catfights she and Yui get into when Shinji syncs... :snigger:


And another odd thought: could there be bleedthrough from the Eidolon to the pilot? As in slowly driving them mad, a la 'Children of an Elder God?'
 

Steel

Well-Known Member
#3
Ike, get your ass out of World of Warcraft and vet this topic, as our resident Jewxpert (as I don't know near enough about our various Qabbalic lore...)
 
#4
All very good questions, Dragoon. I had intended to let the author who took this idea up come up with it, but I suppose I can speculate in order to make their lives easier.

Or if I finally decide which of my ideas to focus on... Whichever comes first.

Question 1: They'd probably be OCs... I have some experience in making them for Eva. Though admittedly that was for parody's sake.

Making them serious OCs would be pretty difficult considering the wasteland that is Eva with this particular plot, but I think a good writer can come up with decent OCs if they try. You have Canada, the US, Britain, and a few other NATO and allied nations (Including Israel) to create characters from.

My idea for the first Eidolon pilot is Mayumi Reynolds, half-white half-Asian girl from North Carolina whose father, Jeremy Reynolds, is involved in the Eidolon program. Curly black hair, blue eyes, kind of anti-social and quiet because her mother passed away and her father is always moving due to his work with the US government. Pretty intelligent: She knows English and Japanese, gets decent grades, but is very much a wallflower. Rarely speaks.

However, once she steps into the Eidolon... She's rather scary. Fiery, efficient, powerful, and ruthless-Possibly the demon's influence or the Eidolon drawing out her repressed anger.

Good name for that Eidolon, BTW. Oblivion is very nice.

Question 2: As for how many Eidolons the US and it's allies would create? Well, the US would have access to a significant amount of Evangelion technology to work with but to keep SEELE from discovering the project, they'd be built with a lot of indigenous technology and advances they would have to make themselves. The US would work on three in concealed locations around the country, Canada, Britain and Australia would provide three more, Israel two more, and a few other nations might throw in an additional two or three Eidolons.

An additional Super-Eidolon would be made by all of the nations contributing support in an undisclosed location-The Lucifer Eidolon. So in total, a possible 13 Eidolons.

Each Eidolon from each nation would have unique attributes given that a lot of the work had to be done with their present resources to keep SEELE from figuring things out. Thus, construction would be slow. The US and Commonwealth nations would get their Eidolons finished first, but would have a rough time finding places to test them without SEELE finding out.

Question 3: Samael and other Angels who joined him altered their evolution with some human DNA, suited to combat. They are about two-thirds the size of an Evangelion, and are more wirey. They are faster and more agile than Evas, but have less overall mass to work with. Thus, in a contest of strength an Eva would mop the floor with an Eidolon. Not to say Eidolons aren't strong, but it's all a matter of leverage-The Evas have the advantage.

Their hands and feet are significantly stronger and sharper than an Eva's, and their teeth are stronger than steel. They have very strong jaw and neck muscles, allowing them a bite force that lets them rend Evangelion armor with their teeth. They are definitely good at close-range combat-Their design makes carrying ranged weapons, like Positron rifles, problematic.

The berserker frenzy is very much like Unit 01's. The Eidolon will ignore and quickly heal damage and will keep fighting until it's enemy is dead or it is. Combined with it's speed, agility, and sheer unpredictability in this mode and it is a formidable opponent.

They can create AT Fields, but their usage of it is limited compared to an Eva's. It serves as a medium-range weapon, a telekinetic blast for targets it can't get close enough to bite or claw. This is, unfortunately, pretty much it's only mode aside from an unstable defensive shield-The Eidolons were copied from Samael, who used cunning to make his specialized abilities victorious in battle.

Question 4: Around Lillith, Samael wouldn't flip out. She was, essentially, his mate for a time. Due to the introduction of human attributes into their systems, the Demons would not cause an Impact via interaction with Lillith.

Adam and his clones, however, the Eidolons go nuts over. Even with their external power supply cut and batteries drained, they can still fight on for a few additional minutes before being subdued. The reason in this universe that construction of Units 03 and 04 was delayed was due to a secret experiment on how an Eidolon would react to an Angel-like being.

04 was nearly ripped to shreds in the ensuing berserker rage exhibited by Eidolon 01.

:rofl: I like that idea too.

Question 5: Well, it took a few years (the Eidolon program was started in 2010), and the loss of a number of scientists and test pilots to the Eidolons to figure out that these demon clones draw out the pilot's primal feelings and repressed emotions. Anger, hatred, sorrow, rage, envy, but above all else, the instincts of a predator are drawn up. It takes acknowledgment of your own primal side, and another human soul in there with you, to get control over the Eidolon.

The majority of the losses that occurred to the Eidolons consisted of insanity, going brain dead, or being mortally injured when the Eidolon went berserk. It took Jeremy Reynolds to figure out that you had to let yourself be absorbed into the Eidolon (like with the Evas) to provide it with a soul and give the pilot an anchor from which to control the beast.
 
#5
Eidolon Unit 01, Oblivion and it's first successful activation test.

- - - -

Mayumi Reynolds focused on the muffled sound of her breathing, the foul smell and taste of the LCL fluid surrounding her. It was much better than dwelling on where she was, and who had di-

Been absorbed before her.

"Beginning activation sequence,"
the kindly voice of Doctor Huron came over the cockpit's communications system. "We are powering up the first series of circuits. Just relax, Mayumi."

Relax. Right. She could relax.

Relax.... Relax...

Relax in the monstrosity that her father had willingly been absorbed into not a month ago. She wondered if she would be able to feel him.

Or if she would be absorbed too, joining her father... Wherever he was.

"Circuits 1 through 30 activated... Synch ratio is climbing... 10 percent..."

She felt it. The same strange feeling she'd gotten ever since she'd first seen this thing... Only ten times stronger.

"Like a mouse in front of a lion," she'd heard a few of the technicians say. That was exactly how she felt, this predatory awareness intruding into her mind.

Focus, focus, focus...

"Synch ratio has increased to 24 percent, circuits 31 through 48 coming online..."

Mayumi looked down at her hands as they began to shake. Even with the restraining harness she couldn't sit still. The predatory feeling grew. Her heart pounded in her ears and she breathed faster.

Focus, focus, focus, focus...!

"You're doing great Mayumi, you're at 35 percent and continuing to climb..."

She couldn't feel anything of her father, just this terrible violent intent. Mocking her, judging her, the beast seemed to regard her as nothing.

Mayumi couldn't help but agree. She was feeling her will crumble as the rage appeared, the anger, the sadistic glee.

No, no! Fight it! Focus! Focus!

The Eidolon shifted it it's massive, titanium and steel restraints in it's holding bay. It's long, diamond-hard and obsidian-sharp fingers clenched into fists.

"Mayumi, calm down! We're right here, just focus! You can do it!" Doctor Huron called again. Mayumi's heart raced, her body began to shudder uncontrollably. The Eidolon's jaws flexed and it began to push against it's restraints, synthetic muscle straining against the several ton harness and manacles.

Focus focus focus focus focus-!

The Eidolon was winning. She could feel it begin to push more and more of it's influence onto her.

Break free, a voice seemed to hiss in her mind, pure bloodlust translated into thought. Break free... Blood... Blood...

"NO! SHUT UP!" Mayumi shouted. The Eidolon's emotions were nothing but scornful amusement.

Cannot resist... Breaking already... It crooned. Blood... Blood... You want it... Unleash us...

"STOP IT! I-I WON'T!"

She was losing control. The Eidolon rumbled around her, it's inhuman snarl vibrating through the LCL.

"Mayumi, it's okay. We're going to shut down down...!"

BLOOD! BLOOD! BLOOD!

Mayumi felt the urge to scream in rage. Her grip tightened around her control yokes, her neural connection band hummed in power. She could destroy this entire facility... Glorify in the flames, in invincibility... Who could stop her?

Yes, yes! Free us! Unleash us! The Demon cackled. You cannot resist!

An insane grin appeared on Mayumi's face. She slammed the Eidolon's arms into either side of the bay, crushing the armor plating like tinfoil. She could crush everyone, everything...

Mayumi...

The rage lessened, and Mayumi blinked. Father...?

Mayumi... Ride the wave... Do not fight it... Direct it...

BLOOD! BLOOD! FIRE AND STORM AND SHATTERED FOUNDATIONS! The Demon roared, her father's voice gone...

But it was enough.

Mayumi stopped resisting, allowed the rage and hate and glee to wash over her. She didn't react, forcing herself to not let the fury catch onto her mind...

WE ARE THE TEMPEST! WE ARE THE INFERNO! WE ARE-! The Demon raged, gradually becoming quieter and quieter until it was only a humming in the back of her head. Breathing hard, she slumped in her seat, staring around at the walls of the cockpit.

She could see the outside world now, feel the armored walls under her fingers, hear the confused and frightened murmuring of the armed guards on the catwalks above her.

"... V-Very good, Mayumi," Huron spoke nervously over the intercom. She could see him too, safe behind armored glass. She smiled softly.

"Holding steady at 51%... Full activation achieved... Good work," he complimented further. Mayumi nodded.

"Good... I'm..." She slumped in her restraints, hearing the Eidolon power down around her. Just maintaining control for that long had exhausted her...

But even as Huron called frantically for a medical team, she still wore her small smile.

Her father was here. He'd kept his promise...

And she'd ridden the wave.
 

biigoh

Well-Known Member
#6
Wait... don't the EVA also have teeth that they can bust out when necessary?
 
#7
biigoh said:
Wait... don't the EVA also have teeth that they can bust out when necessary?
Yes, but as you can see in the pictures, the Eidolon teeth are much, much bigger. And pointier.
 
#8
Can't speak for anyone else, but I have no interest in any OCs... pretty much ever, yeah.
 

Ike

Well-Known Member
#11
Andrew Joshua Talon said:
According to Jewish lore, in particular the Talmud, Samael was the Evil Angel of Death, as opposed to Gabriel who was the Good Angel of Death. He is known as the angel who took the form of a serpent and tempted Eve, according to other texts. In The Holy Kabbalah, he took Lillith as his bride after she was rejected by Adam. It has been suggested that Samael is the true angelic name of Satan, rather than Lucifer (The Roman name for Venus, the Dawnstar).
/makes me cry.


Sigh.


If you're going to quote Wiki, please take the entire quotes from it. If it doesn't quite make sense to you (Why hallo thar, evil angel of death who is the RULER OF THE FIFTH HEAVEN), then chances are, theres a damn good reason that most students of Talmudic studies are students for their entire lives.





As a general rule, never ever trust any interpretation you get about the Kaballah UNLESS it is directly taught to you in a small class by an old Jewish man who has spent his life studying the Kaballah under another, older Jewish man. Because otherwise, its a misinterpreation.







As a general rule in Judaism, though, there ain't no evil angels who fight against God, like you imagine with Christian heaven and hell. Theres God, and the parts of the universe that havent quite been filled with his holiness yet. Those 'areas' can be described as demons. A good example of the necessity of being a scholar to understand Jewish lore is that the biggest, most evil presence that is yet lacking God is an entity known as Metat.... Or, as Christians call him, the Metatron. And yes, he's just as important and necessary to the universe to Jews as he is to Christians.



So please, for the love of God, leave Jewish lore (ESPECIALLY Jewish lore from Wikipedia) out of fanfiction. And even moreso something as ridiculously, over-the-top complicated as Kaballah. It just hurts seeing it. I'm not even seeing where its necessary to bring it up, especially because it makes literally no sense from a Jewish point of view.


And Steel, seeing your post made me laugh, because I had already started writing up a response before I saw what you wrote ; ).
 
#12
Watashiwa said:
:blink: Wow. That was well done.

I like where this might go.

Oh, AJT? I have an issue with what you just said. About the Eva's teeth...



Bottom of the pic. Eva's have incredible teeth; underneath the bindings.
Thanks! Any suggestions on addition Eidolon pilots? Or how to have them interact with the Eva pilots?

My thought for the beginning of the story (if I were writing it) would be to have Eidolon 02 go rogue, it's pilot under the thrall of the demon, and run away, headed for NERV. When in an berserker state the Eidolon doesn't run out of power. This brings the existence of the Eidolons to the world's attention, and the US covers by telling most of the truth:

That they are constructs based on Evangelion technology, but intended to be smaller, cheaper versions that can be built in larger numbers than the Evas. Which is completely true... Just not the whole truth.

Anyway, Eidolon Oblivion is deployed to Tokyo-3 to help track down the rogue Eidolon 02, while SEELE attempts to discover the truth behind the Eidolon Program.

The OC is not about to start a romance with anyone. She has a job to do... Though if her Eidolon goes berserk around Unit 01, which was cloned from Lillith... And the fact that Lillith was Samael's bride according to some Jewish texts... Hooo boy.

On the teeth:

True, but the Eidolon's teeth are longer and pointier. And unlike the Evas, these teeth are not constrained by armor bindings normally-They're just another weapon for the Eidolon to use.
 
#13
Ike said:
Andrew Joshua Talon said:
According to Jewish lore, in particular the Talmud, Samael was the Evil Angel of Death, as opposed to Gabriel who was the Good Angel of Death. He is known as the angel who took the form of a serpent and tempted Eve, according to other texts. In The Holy Kabbalah, he took Lillith as his bride after she was rejected by Adam. It has been suggested that Samael is the true angelic name of Satan, rather than Lucifer (The Roman name for Venus, the Dawnstar).
/makes me cry.

Sigh.

If you're going to quote Wiki, please take the entire quotes from it. If it doesn't quite make sense to you (Why hallo thar, evil angel of death who is the RULER OF THE FIFTH HEAVEN), then chances are, theres a damn good reason that most students of Talmudic studies are students for their entire lives.

As a general rule, never ever trust any interpretation you get about the Kaballah UNLESS it is directly taught to you in a small class by an old Jewish man who has spent his life studying the Kaballah under another, older Jewish man. Because otherwise, its a misinterpreation.

As a general rule in Judaism, though, there ain't no evil angels who fight against God, like you imagine with Christian heaven and hell. Theres God, and the parts of the universe that havent quite been filled with his holiness yet. Those 'areas' can be described as demons. A good example of the necessity of being a scholar to understand Jewish lore is that the biggest, most evil presence that is yet lacking God is an entity known as Metat.... Or, as Christians call him, the Metatron. And yes, he's just as important and necessary to the universe to Jews as he is to Christians.

So please, for the love of God, leave Jewish lore (ESPECIALLY Jewish lore from Wikipedia) out of fanfiction. And even moreso something as ridiculously, over-the-top complicated as Kaballah. It just hurts seeing it. I'm not even seeing where its necessary to bring it up, especially because it makes literally no sense from a Jewish point of view.

And Steel, seeing your post made me laugh, because I had already started writing up a response before I saw what you wrote ; ).
Considering the lack of accuracy about the Kabbalah in canon Evangelion, it doesn't exactly seem like a crime for me to incorporate aspects of it into a fanfiction. I'm sorry for not consulting an expert for my own spin on things.

Yes, I looked at Wiki and I used the data there. Not because I was trying to insult Jewish scholars, simply because this and a few other sites gave me enough information to come up with an idea.

I am not going strictly for accuracy because if I did, then the Angels would probably not be giant hideous monsters of doom. I am going for using Jewish folklore the same way Anno did-In order to tell a story. So I apologize if I have offended you, but in the end I'm just doing what Gainax did... Only not making money off of it.
 

Watashiwa

Administrator
Staff member
#14
Andrew Joshua Talon said:
... but in the end I'm just doing what Gainax did... Only not making money off of it.
Hah. As far as I can tell, that's the only difference between fanfiction and "original" work.

Except that fans can do a better job. Or a worse job, so I suppose it all evens out. Very Zen, it is.

As for the story itself... sure, why not? If Jet Alone can lose it, the Americans version can lose it in a bigger, more dramatic fashion. See Speed Racer: The Farce... er, Movie for details.
 

Ike

Well-Known Member
#15
Andrew Joshua Talon said:
Considering the lack of accuracy about the Kabbalah in canon Evangelion, it doesn't exactly seem like a crime for me to incorporate aspects of it into a fanfiction. I'm sorry for not consulting an expert for my own spin on things.

Yes, I looked at Wiki and I used the data there. Not because I was trying to insult Jewish scholars, simply because this and a few other sites gave me enough information to come up with an idea.

I am not going strictly for accuracy because if I did, then the Angels would probably not be giant hideous monsters of doom. I am going for using Jewish folklore the same way Anno did-In order to tell a story. So I apologize if I have offended you, but in the end I'm just doing what Gainax did... Only not making money off of it.
Considering the fact that the extent Evangelion went to was use 'The Dead Sea Scrolls', and used Hebrew names for all the angels, I have to say no, they didn't really 'butcher the kaballah'.

All they used were the names Adam, Lillith, and vague references to religion. That's about it.



So that post was essentially you saying 'No, I'm just going to be an ass and make up whatever I want and tag it to Judaism, because I think that Gainax did the same thing.'


Seriously. There's no need for you to attempt to fuck up Jewish theology by making up shit and attributing it to our beliefs. We have enough Kaballah centers doing the same thing already. Theres a reason that there used to be not only an age requirement, a knowledge of every other area of study requirement, and fucking being taught one on one with someone who themselves learned one on one (until the Zohar was discovered).

And that's so people who won't understand it don't try to learn it.


So pretending that it's ok to insult an entire religion, and say fuck you to their beliefs because you think an Anime did the same just means you're a dick, not clever.



And you're wrong, angels could easily be giant hideous monsters of doom. Have you never read the Ezekiel description of them???
 
#16
Ike said:
Andrew Joshua Talon said:
Considering the lack of accuracy about the Kabbalah in canon Evangelion, it doesn't exactly seem like a crime for me to incorporate aspects of it into a fanfiction. I'm sorry for not consulting an expert for my own spin on things.

Yes, I looked at Wiki and I used the data there. Not because I was trying to insult Jewish scholars, simply because this and a few other sites gave me enough information to come up with an idea.

I am not going strictly for accuracy because if I did, then the Angels would probably not be giant hideous monsters of doom. I am going for using Jewish folklore the same way Anno did-In order to tell a story. So I apologize if I have offended you, but in the end I'm just doing what Gainax did... Only not making money off of it.
Considering the fact that the extent Evangelion went to was use 'The Dead Sea Scrolls', and used Hebrew names for all the angels, I have to say no, they didn't really 'butcher the kaballah'.

All they used were the names Adam, Lillith, and vague references to religion. That's about it.



So that post was essentially you saying 'No, I'm just going to be an ass and make up whatever I want and tag it to Judaism, because I think that Gainax did the same thing.'


Seriously. There's no need for you to attempt to fuck up Jewish theology by making up shit and attributing it to our beliefs. We have enough Kaballah centers doing the same thing already. Theres a reason that there used to be not only an age requirement, a knowledge of every other area of study requirement, and fucking being taught one on one with someone who themselves learned one on one (until the Zohar was discovered).

And that's so people who won't understand it don't try to learn it.


So pretending that it's ok to insult an entire religion, and say fuck you to their beliefs because you think an Anime did the same just means you're a dick, not clever.



And you're wrong, angels could easily be giant hideous monsters of doom. Have you never read the Ezekiel description of them???
For crying out loud... Fine. I admit I messed up. My intent was not to piss you off, or bash the Jews, or anything period. I just had what I thought was a fun idea and ran with it.

If I based the idea off of the Book of Enoch, with the Chief Angel of the Grigori Samyaza (or Shemhazai, etc.) being the "Fallen Angel" that the US and it's allies use for the basis of the Eidolons, would that work better?

I'm asking because I really want to know, not because I'm being a dick.

My focus is to write a story that is at least accurate. So can we move past your impression that I am anti-Semitic and focus on the purpose of the thread?
 

Ike

Well-Known Member
#17
Andrew Joshua Talon said:
For crying out loud... Fine. I admit I messed up. My intent was not to piss you off, or bash the Jews, or anything period. I just had what I thought was a fun idea and ran with it.

If I based the idea off of the Book of Enoch, with the Chief Angel of the Grigori Samyaza (or Shemhazai, etc.) being the "Fallen Angel" that the US and it's allies use for the basis of the Eidolons, would that work better?

I'm asking because I really want to know, not because I'm being a dick.

My focus is to write a story that is at least accurate. So can we move past your impression that I am anti-Semitic and focus on the purpose of the thread?
Never said anything about anti-semitism. I said that its being douchebaggy to attribute bs to a religion that already too many people out there misinterpret and make shit up about (their theology) all the time.





Book of Enoch=Apocrypha=bull shit anyway, and added to your use of 'grigori' means you're using christian theology, means that you can use whatever ya want from there without fear of pissing me off. None of that is Jewish belief, anyway.




Just to clarify= What got me worked up was you (incompletely) quoting the first paragraph about the angel Sammael from Wikipedia, and then blanket-stating that as Jewish Beliefs. As Steel can attest, that makes me angry, and thus I will start yelling about it.

Judaism is a religion where you can't just go to sunday study groups and expect to be able to really know what you are talking about. You have to devote your whole life to studying it, and it's had scholars up there as its most important profession since pretty much the religion began. In particular, the Kabbalah is probably the most complicated aspect of the whole religion (I wasn't exaggerating in the slightest that before the Zohar, you worked goddamn hard to be even eligible to be taught it, much less actually being taught it... The Zohar just made what could be described as a 100 on a scale of difficulty (where 100 is hardest and 1 is easiest) into an 85.

Kaballah centers really piss me off.
 
#18
Ike said:
Andrew Joshua Talon said:
For crying out loud... Fine. I admit I messed up. My intent was not to piss you off, or bash the Jews, or anything period. I just had what I thought was a fun idea and ran with it.

If I based the idea off of the Book of Enoch, with the Chief Angel of the Grigori Samyaza (or Shemhazai, etc.) being the "Fallen Angel" that the US and it's allies use for the basis of the Eidolons, would that work better?

I'm asking because I really want to know, not because I'm being a dick.

My focus is to write a story that is at least accurate. So can we move past your impression that I am anti-Semitic and focus on the purpose of the thread?
Never said anything about anti-semitism. I said that its being douchebaggy to attribute bs to a religion that already too many people out there misinterpret and make shit up about (their theology) all the time.





Book of Enoch=Apocrypha=bull shit anyway, and added to your use of 'grigori' means you're using christian theology, means that you can use whatever ya want from there without fear of pissing me off. None of that is Jewish belief, anyway.




Just to clarify= What got me worked up was you (incompletely) quoting the first paragraph about the angel Sammael from Wikipedia, and then blanket-stating that as Jewish Beliefs. As Steel can attest, that makes me angry, and thus I will start yelling about it.

Judaism is a religion where you can't just go to sunday study groups and expect to be able to really know what you are talking about. You have to devote your whole life to studying it, and it's had scholars up there as its most important profession since pretty much the religion began. In particular, the Kabbalah is probably the most complicated aspect of the whole religion (I wasn't exaggerating in the slightest that before the Zohar, you worked goddamn hard to be even eligible to be taught it, much less actually being taught it... The Zohar just made what could be described as a 100 on a scale of difficulty (where 100 is hardest and 1 is easiest) into an 85.

Kaballah centers really piss me off.
I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I do not believe this is the extent of Jewish beliefs or crap like that. I just thought this passage was relevant for the purpose of the story.

I'm not trying to make a religious statement here, I'm just trying to write a story, that's all.

So from now on guys, I'll use the Book of Enoch (BS it may be) for the basis of Neon Genesis Eidolon. The Fallen Angel used by the US and it's allies is thus now Samyaza. Which apparently means "infamous rebellion", which seems more appropriate.

The Grigori were angels who took mortal women as their lovers, who then gave birth to the Nephilim, aka giants. However, given that Rei is technically a Nephilim (part Angel, part Human), it stands to reason that the giant aspect may have been a misinterpretation or something else.
 
#19
Andrew Joshua Talon said:
Even if they were well written OCs?
Even then. I don't want to read about your characters, I want to read about the characters from the series. (I'm generalizing, this is in reference to any series/OCs. Not just yours.)
 
#20
Christopher Robin said:
Andrew Joshua Talon said:
Even if they were well written OCs?
Even then. I don't want to read about your characters, I want to read about the characters from the series. (I'm generalizing, this is in reference to any series/OCs. Not just yours.)
You'd read about both in this story, but if you don't like it, fair enough.
 
#21
The problem with an OC, is that unless it's a background character, it's going to share the stage with the main characters. It doesn't, however, have the background to make me CARE about them like I do the main characters.

It's not impossible to like an OC.... but it has to be better than just 'well done' usually.
 

Canis

Well-Known Member
#22
And how is the lack of background for an OC, at least in the beginning, any different from the start of any other anime or manga series that isn't a direct follow-up sequel to a previous series?

Did you instantly know Shinji's background when you watched the first episode of EVA?

I understand that OC's are, very often, poorly written, but that isn't always the case. Sometimes they can be very well written and for a fanfic that is essentially a rewrite of the entire seires? OC's are one of the best ways to change it without pulling a massive Deus Ex personality change on the main characters.
 

kuopiofi

Well-Known Member
#23
Christopher Robin said:
Andrew Joshua Talon said:
Even if they were well written OCs?
Even then. I don't want to read about your characters, I want to read about the characters from the series. (I'm generalizing, this is in reference to any series/OCs. Not just yours.)
You really must hate Fosfor then?
 
#24
If you are careful, you can make an OC interesting. Just as long as they don't steal the show.

So, how would SEELE react to the Eidolons being revealed to the world?
 

Shikaze

Well-Known Member
#25
Andrew Joshua Talon said:
If you are careful, you can make an OC interesting. Just as long as they don't steal the show.

So, how would SEELE react to the Eidolons being revealed to the world?
"NOT as planned ! :rant: "
 
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