New Game +

[Scygnus Darkhawk]

And interesting point I have to add, that you may have forgotten... the first time you fire up Innocent Sin Online, you get a message from "PHIL"

"Reality is just a series of events and players acting out what they believe is real. When we accept that fact, our world becomes "Reality." Reality is but a reflection of our thoughts and expectations. But, what if we were merely reflections in another's mirror? Are you prepared to look through that mirror to discover the truth?"

Could be innocent enough, or you could take it as evidence that Philamon is at least watching.

 

[SoulGriever13]

I took it as an implication that most of the persona users are calling on that inner shadow for their persona.

I saw it like that too. It would then follow that the Shadows, which roam the Dark Hour, are born of those people left in the coffins. Fits with the whole 'self-destructive' tendencies, Kirijo's initial research, everything.

-Griever

 

[Darkforce222]

I took it as an implication that most of the persona users are calling on that inner shadow for their persona.

I saw it like that too. It would then follow that the Shadows, which roam the Dark Hour, are born of those people left in the coffins. Fits with the whole 'self-destructive' tendencies, Kirijo's initial research, everything.

-Griever

Metis actually outright states this in The Answer, too. The bit about Personas being Shadows, at least. It's why only a Persona-user can harm them.

Personas are essentially just inner-Shadows, harnessed and controlled by sheer strength of will. They're essentially guardians of the soul, although really, really bad things happen if someone's Persona awakens and they're not strong enough to control it(See: Strega, and to an extent Shinjiro).

Shadows are essentially people's negative emotions given form, or people's souls dragged out and corrupted by other Shadows(which explains why Minato finds Personas sitting around after they're defeated). Destroying a Shadow seems to cure it's victim, if it had one.

 

[Lumias]

I'd say SEES Persona are mutations or some odd way of being called Persona apprentices before getting access to the real thing. Master yourself before mastering others possibly.

Yeah I'm grasping straws here, but if Aigis could do it, then the others might too under the right circumstances I guess.

This is just my opinion, but for me the reason Aigis was able to tap into "his" power was because the last event in her Social Link in FES. His soul and being is possibly imprinted onto her core being.

 

[ViktorMayrin]

And if we wanted to completely fry what's left of my brain at this point, there is the cast of P4 to consider.

You could have him just show up from Persona 4, completely and utterly confused as to why he is now three years in the past.

Utter mindfuck point reached, I think.

 

[Watashiwa]

Hi. Notice the date on the post above yours? This is (technically) a necro.

But I do not care, because I'm starting to work on a project using ideas from this. Two, in fact.

Anyone have any Persona theories? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that P4 Persona users are identical to the Persona users from Persona 1 and 2, despite having one Persona each. This is because their method of Persona invoking is very reminiscent of the early games: cards.

In P1 and P2, the main characters summoned new Personae by fusing cards received from demons together, and the resulting creature entered into a new card.

It's pretty hard to tell how the older Persona users summoned in battle, but there's a fair chance that they used the cards to summon (and for cases like pre-IS Maya, she did it the other way--pure terror. Which is what the Evokers in Persona 3 create in the users IIRC).

The only reason that Persona users in 4 cannot all do what the main does and switch Personae is simple--they lack a contract. Minato contracted with Death, Aigis contracted with Minato, the main cast from P1 and P2 with Philemon and Seta contracted with *ahem* the fog machine (yes I know who it is...). Any objections?

 

[SoulGriever13]

The contract idea works (well, as far as I can tell, since I'm working off P4 spoilers mostly and extrapolating most of my info from P3 - it'll be a bit before they release P4 over here, which is a pity, because I really really like the char concept of Naoto) but I'm also pretty sure that, if Minato had not signed the contract, he still would have been able to wield the power of Persona in a more ... conventional way. The only reason he was brought there was the fact that he was somehow identified as having the potential to do so, after all.

Actually, that would make for an interesting alt. Minato declines signing the contract since he reasons out that he doesn't need to declare himself as accepting of the consequences, knowing that all living beings do so whether they want to or not, and ends up with just Orpheus (who later evolves into Erebus as he absorbs Thanatos in his entirety). Think on it. Also, the way I figure it, both Orpheus' and Erebus' further skill trees would be focused on buffs (Orpheus) and debuffs (Erebus).

On the whole, the contract is pretty much a Deus Ex of an interested Third Party, which is nifty in its own right. Gives a new dimension to the proceedings. Hmm ... another interesting idea, though for a P4 alt - correct me if I'm talking out of my ass, but wouldn't it be interesting if the Protagonist got a possible romance subplot with Margaret?

-Griever

 

[jwolf0]

On the whole, the contract is pretty much a Deus Ex of an interested Third Party, which is nifty in its own right. Gives a new dimension to the proceedings. Hmm ... another interesting idea, though for a P4 alt - correct me if I'm talking out of my ass, but wouldn't it be interesting if the Protagonist got a possible romance subplot with Margaret?

Minor spoiler for P4, but if you max out Margaret's S. Link

you're stealing a kiss from her instead of the other way around because residents aren't allowed to have relationships.? Too bad the kiss is as far as it gets.

Makes you wonder even more what happened to Elizabeth, especially if her S. Link events are as suggestive as everyone says. (No, I haven't finished FES... stupid Hard Mode prevented me from getting further than late October/early November, then Persona 4 -shiny! came out.)

 

[Watashiwa]

Makes you wonder even more what happened to Elizabeth, especially if her S. Link events are as suggestive as everyone says. (No, I haven't finished FES... stupid Hard Mode prevented me from getting further than late October/early November, then Persona 4 -shiny! came out.)

Elizabeth doesn't have an S. Link, which is odd. It boiled down (to ATLUS) as a choice between Aigis and Liz, and Aigis made more sense from an "Answer" point of view.

Also about Margaret, she wants to find the reason that Elizabeth left the Velvet Room. She doesn't understand that it was emotions that led her sister to do so. Heh, like when she says that she's, "Looking [in Seta] for the power that drove Elizabeth to leave the Velvet Room". Sorry for the awkward paraphrase, but that's what I recall. Even stranger with the statement, is that even though attendants are not supposed to have relationships with those from our world, Elizabeth was never punished for doing so. She left the Room of her own free will, and decided to put her relationship with Minato on hold so that Minato and herself could focus on preparing for the End of the World. This implies to me that losing Elizabeth is what made Igor put the "Do not get involved!" clause into his minions terms in the Velvet Room.

Hmm... anyone else think that everyone who has ever come from the Velvet Room is a homonculus? It makes sense; they aren't human and can use Personae (sorta like Aigis).


Anyway, my thoughts above on the P4 cast's Persona abilities sparked a memory of a theory I had about the P3 cast. Let me try an find it, and I'll edit it in.

 

[Darkforce222]

P4's personas seem more strongly linked to the users themselves, too(Tomoe's tracksuit, Kintoki Douji's tomahawk pun, etc) probably as a result of how they're awakened. It...doesn't really make much of a difference, but it's interesting to note.

Trauma seems to be the key to initially awakening any kind of Persona, though. Mitsuru managed to do it without an Evoker to protect her father.

It actually never crossed my mind that that could have been Souji's contract, I always assumed it was the promise with Teddie. Your(likely correct) idea makes a great deal more sense. Souji's notable for growing out of the big player's control, though. He's possibly the first to do this in the series. It was noted several times late-game that Souji(and as a result his friends) grew WAY faster and more powerful than he was supposed to.

On the contract: Think of the wording for it. "I chooseth this fate of mine own free will". That always kind of bugged me. Considering that and the fact that Minato's Velvet Room is an elevator it seems like his fate was sealed the second he signed it. It's like the mother of all fine-print. If he didn't sign it he MIGHT be able to still grab Personas from defeated shadows, but likely he'd be stuck with Orpheus(who would likely progress on the Orpheus - Thanatos - Messiah/Orpheus Kai route, or if we use Griever's intriguing Erebus idea: Orpheus - Erebus - Dark Messiah(bearing the weight of the world's sadness to protect everyone. Also using it to kick ass.)).

I thought Elizabeth might have left BECAUSE of the rule, I think she was aware that what she was doing with Minato was a major no-no but couldn't resist. After his death she cut ties entirely to save him. That's what I was going on, anyway.

Needlessly Anal Moment: Souji Seta. Seta's his last name. Ugh, I feel like an over-correcting jerk just typing that.

 

[lord geryon]

Needlessly Anal Moment: Souji Seta. Seta's his last name. Ugh, I feel like an over-correcting jerk just typing that.

What, seriously? I thought his first name was Seta, due to the family name coming first in Japanese names.

 

[Watashiwa]

Needlessly Anal Moment: Souji Seta. Seta's his last name. Ugh, I feel like an over-correcting jerk just typing that.

I think that's stupid, so I switched the name's around for my playthrough. :huh.:

Seta (first name) Souji (last name) sounds better to my Western preferences.

Anyway, my Persona 3 theory. When I got Persona 3 I was like, "Holy cripes, they're shooting themselves in the head!" Then I got the other Persona games and I thought "Wait a minute... something changed between 2 and 3."

GH says above that the Persona power is weakening and requires an outside tool, the "Evoker", to summon. But they've always used a tool of some kind (the cards) to summon, even if the cards did just magically appear out of thin air like we saw with Souji-kun.

So what changed? Why do the kids in Persona 3 need Evokers to sumon? Why don't they have the cards? First part: no Philemon. In the first two games, playing "Master Persona" and a suitable demonic threat would be enough for Philemon to reach out and grant some teenagers the Persona power. So why didn't he in Persona 3? Well, I say it's because there aren't any demons. SEES was fighting against the combined nihilism of the entire human race, not Nyarlathotep and his monster brigade. So he isn't allowed to interfere. Igor on the other hand...

Then I started thinking "Why these particular people? Why didn't Hidetoshi or Kenji pick up the Persona ability?" I thought for a while. Maybe it had to do with their mental states? One of the Persona series' main themes is the need to change. Content people don't have that need to grow and change. The Persona of someone content with his place in the world would never have the same growth potential as the Persona of someone who wants to change himself.

Then I kicked myself. That couldn't possibly be it given that all of Minato's S. Links involve helping people through some problem. Hidetoshi and his power complex, Maiko and her parents, etc. So maybe, I thought, it's the degree of the problem?

Nah. Junpei's trauma is his asshole dad. It's still horrible, but not as traumatizing as parents who ignore your existence in favor of fighting with each other (Maiko, again).

And it was Junpei who led me to the realization. Everyone in Persona 3 who has a Persona has had, or can be assumed to have had, a near death experience.

Junpei? Easy. His dad hits him too hard and sends him to the hospital. Fuuka? Attempted suicide in middle school (she seems the type... sorry.) Mitsuru? Her whacko grandfathers Persona experiments. Akihiko? Didn't the game say that he, Shinjiro and his sister were in an accident of some kind? Ken? The Shadow attack where Castor went bersek could also have seen him injured.

The one's who don't fit are Yukari, Aigis and Koromaru (and Metis, but she h4x's the game anyway). Yukari could be anything, but I see another attempted suicide. Aigis is a robot that was designed to be human and use a Persona. She's closest to the original Persona users in everyway except for the whole Philemon thing.

As for Koro-chan... well, he's as intelligent as a human but in a different way. Does he have his Persona because he's so intelligent or is he so intelligent because he's got a Persona? I think the first, actually. Anyway, his near death experience is in-game, when he fights the Shadows that killed his master.

Aha, I thought, I have it. But wait a minute... something's missing. Oh yes. How could I forget? Terror. Persona summonings without a tool in the Persona series require a strong surge of emotion. In Persona 3, it's terror. After someone has decided to change themself, and after almost dying (regardless of which comes first) whatever barrier there is between someone's inner self and the outside world weakens, and breaks with a strong emotional rush, and we get a new Persona user.

So there are three requirements for a Persona user to awaken to and use the Potential in P3.

1. A desire to change the self or change a situation (shared with all Persona users).
2. A near death experience.
3. Complete and utter terror (provided via Evoker).

Hah... how's that sound?

 

[jwolf0]

Elizabeth doesn't have an S. Link, which is odd. It boiled down (to ATLUS) as a choice between Aigis and Liz, and Aigis made more sense from an "Answer" point of view.

You're right, I meant her requests. They just felt like an S. Link to me.

 

[Watashiwa]

Elizabeth doesn't have an S. Link, which is odd.? It boiled down (to ATLUS) as a choice between Aigis and Liz, and Aigis made more sense from an "Answer" point of view.

You're right, I meant her requests. They just felt like an S. Link to me.

Should have been an S. Link. That would have been awesome.

Check the post right over yours. What do you think about my theory?

 

[FinalMax]

The theory seems sound. I say run with it. You have to wonder if Strega's conditions were lacking one of those components. For the near-death experience, we potentially have the experiments that made them. The drugs could simply be some strong psychotropics to generate the fear while keeping it slightly under wraps. The only thing that needs to be hashed out is the desire to change, or we could list that as being their missing link.

As for Yukari, we don't know the exact extent of her life between the Incident and the start of P3. The rough life she's vaguely described could have included at least one near-death trauma.

 

[Darkforce222]

I always thought that was just how Mitsuru(or the Kirijo Group) worked it out. she first summoned her persona without assistance to protect her father. They could naturally deduce that trauma/terror calls the Persona and make the Evoker to emulate that feeling. The Wild Card obviously has an effect on those around them, too, as while Yukari didn't go through any serious trauma to awaken her potential, she also never awoke her Persona until after Minato did. It's pretty safe to assume that they draw in others with the potential.

Actually, The Answer pretty much covers the event(or closely related event) that stirs the Persona in everyone. Akihiko actually had no real emotional prompt at all(despite his tragic family life) to summon his, so I assume that the Evoker is kind of an "artifical awakening". It emulates the required terror/trauma on contact to summon a Persona(for those who can). Mitsuru and probably Minato could likely summon without it, though it may be more difficult to do so.

If we go by P4, Strega and Shinjiro's conditions may come from the same "denial of acceptance", though this is pure speculation with no evidence to back it up. It's likely that they don't have the required mental stability(Persona is defined as "Shadow focused through the Ego", an unstable/fragile Ego would be bad news. As evidenced by, uh, all of P4).

You obviously have to have had some kind of trauma/messed-up mindset to evoke either way, though, the Evoker just speeds the process a little. It's kind of brilliant, honestly. (P4 obviously runs off of slightly different laws, as they're literally subduing their own Shadows and making use of them that way through acceptance).

Oh yeah, Mitsuru's Persona awakened in Tartarus, so Old Man Kirijo was Shadow chow by then. Though a scientist(who, given the voice, is likely Ikutsuki) wants to experiment on her, her father shoots that idea down pretty quick.

 

[Watashiwa]

Oh yeah, Mitsuru's Persona awakened in Tartarus, so Old Man Kirijo was Shadow chow by then. Though a scientist(who, given the voice, is likely Ikutsuki) wants to experiment on her, her father shoots that idea down pretty quick.

But the Persona experiments were conducted alongside the Shadow experiments. Why else would Mitsuru have been with her father at Tartarus? The answer: he knew that she had some power that, if invoked, could be the difference between the exploration teams survival and utter annihilation.

If we go by P4, Strega and Shinjiro's conditions may come from the same "denial of acceptance", though this is pure speculation with no evidence to back it up. It's likely that they don't have the required mental stability(Persona is defined as "Shadow focused through the Ego", an unstable/fragile Ego would be bad news. As evidenced by, uh, all of P4).

Both excellent ideas. I lean more towards "denial of the inner self" though, because it also explains Shinjiro. He didn't have any problems with Castor until Ken's mom was killed.

Akihiko actually had no real emotional prompt at all(despite his tragic family life) to summon his, so I assume that the Evoker is kind of an "artifical awakening".

Dunno about this. The only requirements to become a Persona (without Philemon) are the near death experience and the determination. Without the strong emotion (fear) the Persona will never manifest--but the user will still have the Potential.

So Akihiko after losing his parents (near death experience) and seeing his sister killed by Shadows (get stronger!) only lacked the emotional high.

 

[silentorphan]

Both excellent ideas. I lean more towards "denial of the inner self" though, because it also explains Shinjiro. He didn't have any problems with Castor until Ken's mom was killed.

What? It was because he had problems with Castor that Ken's mom was killed--Castor went berserk, didn't it?

Dunno about this.á The only requirements to become a Persona (without Philemon) are the near death experience and the determination.á Without the strong emotion (fear) the Persona will never manifest--but the user will still have the Potential.

Not necessarily. Aigis could summon her Persona well before she started any emotional development, which also coincides with the birth of the Aeon social link.

 

[Watashiwa]

Both excellent ideas. I lean more towards "denial of the inner self" though, because it also explains Shinjiro. He didn't have any problems with Castor until Ken's mom was killed.

What? It was because he had problems with Castor that Ken's mom was killed--Castor went berserk, didn't it?

Oops. Yeah you're right, the game does say that. But the game also says that Minato plays Innocent Sin Online, when actually he plays Devil Busters Online, and the player he meets is Y-ko, not Maya. (Note--in the Japanese version of P3 Minato plays the non-existent online version of the original Megami Tensei. )

I always figured that Shinjiro got over excited and temporarily let Castor run wild, in order to defeat the Shadow. That would describe his guilt much better than "Oh, a part of me that I do not understand nor control perfectly accidentally killed someone."

Just a thought though. :huh.:

Dunno about this.? The only requirements to become a Persona (without Philemon) are the near death experience and the determination.? Without the strong emotion (fear) the Persona will never manifest--but the user will still have the Potential.

Not necessarily. Aigis could summon her Persona well before she started any emotional development, which also coincides with the birth of the Aeon social link.

But Aigis is and always has been an exception to the rule. Check the last page, I specifically mentioned that she broke the rules. Koro-chan too.

 

[Sect]

Dunno about this.? The only requirements to become a Persona (without Philemon) are the near death experience and the determination.? Without the strong emotion (fear) the Persona will never manifest--but the user will still have the Potential.

This theory fits with P4 (with some adjustment), except for Seta. The first time he truly called up his Persona he wasn't all that threatened like Minato was, and he had used his Persona before that in his dream (albeit, the figure was covered in shadows).

... Spoiler. Of course, if Izanami fulfills the same role that Philemon does in 1 and 2, then it's a moot point.

Question: what happened to the previous residents before Elizabeth? I'm interested in that.

 

[Darkforce222]

Dunno about this. The only requirements to become a Persona (without Philemon) are the near death experience and the determination. Without the strong emotion (fear) the Persona will never manifest--but the user will still have the Potential.

Junpei may still be the one missing link to that though. Yukari can be explained by the rooftop confrontation(if Minato didn't pick up the Evoker she would have died.). Fuuka could have just been exposed to Tartarus and the Shadows for such an extended period of time that she kind of "adapted" to it, too. Or sticking with your theme, a close call with a Shadow or something before the boys show up. Natsuki was definitely what sparked her, though. She just doesn't strike me as suicidal as she has a surprising amount of inner strength.

Junpei's got nothing life-threatening like that, really. But, like you said, it wouldn't be hard to put something in.

I DO prefer my theory, but hey, this is fanfiction and both could easily be right. Your idea's a good one and I'll read it gladly.

As for the Velvet Room, while there's definitely others in there it's never explained who they are besides Piano Playing Guy and Singing Woman(which is where the theme comes from). P4 says the Velvet Room is different for each visitor though so they could have just been part of the room itself.

It's hard to say. Part of the fun of Elizabeth and Margaret is that nobody's sure WHAT they are. Heck, they might have been created by the Room itself, considering they can use the Compendium. All that's really known is they have the Wild Card(or can emulate it) and are VERY powerful. There's obviously some pretty strict limitations on their actions, too.

 

[lord geryon]

Personally, I think that Elizabeth and Margaret are the Shadows of the MCs.

They both have yellow eyes. In P4, the difference between the real person and the Shadow are that the Shadows have yellow eyes.

They both have the 'wild card', like the MCs.

Of course, there is the whole thing about them being opposite genders from the MCs and not looking like the MCs, but... perhaps that's the influence of the Velvet Room and Igor?