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Luthorne · Jul 12, 2008

armedlord said:

Why not? The only question is, where was our malevolent little shapeshifting friend during the events of Persona 3? Playing as Ikutsuki, and faking his own death to stir things up? Or did he, perhaps, not want to attract Nyx's attention personally? Or someone else entirely? Or, was he just either ignorant, confused as to the cause of, or simply not interested in the events of Persona 3...at least not until Minato managed to start it up again and get ahold of Philemon...

...could diverge quite a bit, if you felt like trying to incorporate some of this. :mellow:

armedlord · Jul 12, 2008

Great, now you have me thinking Nyarlathotep as Takaya now. Well both Takaya and Ikutsuki that is.

Luthorne · Jul 12, 2008

armedlord said:

Gotta admit, make an interesting plot twist. Especially if he thinks he knows how to deal with Ikutsuki and/or Takaya...but he really doesn't, because he never had a clue the first time around...and, of course, Nyarlathotep probably would have at least something of an inkling...which could definitely make things interesting. Plus, of course, the idea of Minato coming to a sudden realization during the supposed death scene of Ikutsuki, with everyone else moving away...and looking down to see Ikutsuki grin up at him maliciously, than morph into something else and fly away...mwahahaha.

Darkforce222 · Jul 12, 2008

While appropriate Persona 2-level dickery, it doesn't really lend itself well to a happy ending.

Or it could, actually, as Nyarlathotep's probably far more limited outside of Sumaru City. That place got ridiculously screwed in so many ways, the highlight of which was probably Hitler with the Lance of Longinus and his elite mech squad.

On the other hand, Nyarlathotep got schooled pretty harshly by the P1 crew. His hosts' entire plan after achieving his nefarious goals also amounted to "Sitting around and moping.".

Technically, SEES could count as real persona users moreso than the P1/2 cast, as their Persona abilities had to be unlocked by Philemon first. Then again, it's strongly hinted at during the Answer that Minato's spirit has essentially become Philemon 2.0.

If you could twist it so that Nyarlathotep was the one turning humanity's negative emotions into Shadows it could probably work, as that's just the kind of assholish move he'd pull. You could easily link to him influencing both Takaya and Ikutsuki from there, too. Both of their rationalizations are strongly reminiscent of people Nyarlathotep influences. This can also lead to SEES facing a concrete, defeatable foe, rather than Death itself.

Ugh, I can talk WAY too much about the Persona series.

Watashiwa · Jul 12, 2008

Luthorne said:

...Damn, figured me out.

Okay, I'll admit, I've been trying to figure how to re-incorporate him.

Ooh, interesting. I hadn't thought about this. I did see Nyarlathotep manipulating Revolver Jesus and Backstabber, but creating the Shadows?

He'd so do that. After seeing how effective Persona users are themselves, he'd want his own. After realizing that Philemon's approach (find kids, give them power) wasn't his style, he'd totally look for a way to get the Persona sans the User. Ripping out someone's soul-> Shadow is more him.

And hey, maybe Nyarlathotep also created the Dark Hour. After all, Mitsuru did say her grandfather went crazy... And hey: Kirijo split from Nanjo.

Coincidence? I think not.

Darkforce222 · Jul 12, 2008

Huh. If we go with Kirijo too, Strega could have originated in the first place by Old Man Kirijo(influenced by Nyarlathotep)'s initial attempts to force Personas to his own ends. Failing at that(and discarding Strega like trash) the research moved on to ripping Personas from the people themselves instead of forcing them to awaken(thus the shadows), and attempting to use that power for his own ends only to be foiled by the unlikely tag-team of Eiichiro Takeba and Aigis.

Can't work out the Dark Hour, though. It could just be a result of the Shadows' release, as per canon. If they're generally influenced by Nyarlathotep then it works.

Geez, this works out almost stupidly well. And it stays true to the series by having Nyarlathotep foiled once again by Philemon's gig: Free will.

Scygnus Darkhawk · Jul 12, 2008

Aaaand I'm lost.

Damn, I need to pull P1 back out and play it through.

And I meant "In his Head" as in "Currently in residence there". In P1, everyone could perceive the Velvet Room, even if there was no real explanation of it. This time, only those linked to it can see, leaving me to think that it may exist within their minds...

SimmyC · Jul 12, 2008

At least you have P1 and maybe P2 to go back to. I have... Wiki. <_< See? Failure right there.

GenocideHeart · Jul 12, 2008

Needs more Ulala Serizawa. -_-

armedlord · Jul 12, 2008

I thought that everyone in P1 who were involved in the Persona mess saw/dreamed about the butterfly, and thus, Philemon.

Hmmm...looks like I have to dig out my copy just to make sure myself.

...and I hate using the PS3 just to type this out.

Darkforce222 · Jul 12, 2008

GenocideHeart said:

Everything needs more Ulala.

And yeah. P1-wise, the kids, at least, all dreamed of the butterfly(It's even hanging around the shrine the first time you go there). I'm assuming Guido didn't, given that Massacre is really Nyarlathotep being a jerkface. I, uh, have absolutely no idea how Tiny got his. Probably wizards.

Oh thread derailing, what can't you do?

Watashiwa · Jul 12, 2008

armedlord said:

And what could everyone in P1 do?

Go to the Velvet Room and mess with their Persona.

SEES members can't, making me wonder if they're real Persona-users.

armedlord · Jul 12, 2008

I'd say SEES Persona are mutations or some odd way of being called Persona apprentices before getting access to the real thing. Master yourself before mastering others possibly.

Yeah I'm grasping straws here, but if Aigis could do it, then the others might too under the right circumstances I guess.

Darkforce222 · Jul 13, 2008

Technically SEES awoke their Personas with no outside interference, so the Persona is a real representation of their soul(it would also explain why while solitary, they can be absurdly strong. It's essentially a perfect affinity.) The P1/P2 heroes had their ability awakened by Philemon, instead.

Minato is actually some kind of freak of nature by the first two(technically three) games' terms, as he can do the usual multi-persona with no outside interference. He seems able to awaken others to the talent, too(considering Aigis saw a blue butterfly shortly before her Wildcard awakened, I'd say Minato was running interference for a good deal of The Answer. Also, like Philemon in P1, his Shadow-self turns into a bunch of blue butterflies when it's dissipating. I stick to my Philemon 2.0 sentiment.)

Honestly, though, P1/2 and P3 pretty much run on entirely different circumstances. I'm pretty thankful for that as fusing Personas for everyone is annoying as heck.

Luthorne · Jul 13, 2008

Yes, well, Minato also had Ryoji/Pharos/Thanatos sealed inside of him, which is...interesting. Especially if Shadows are a product of Nyarlathotep...though, since Ryoji's also supposed to be the Appriser of Death, which implies some sort of connection to Nyx (unless there's stuff on that revealed in the Answer which I haven't gotten to play quite yet)...which makes me wonder just how exactly that all plays out. Perhaps Thanatos was originally something else and Nyarlathotep got his hands on him? Hmm...much speculation.

And yeah, Minato being Philemon 2.0 would probably explain Aigis awakening the ability to summon multiple persona and such, if he did what he could while basically being the seal to hold back Nyx, from what I understand...hmm. While I don't really think this works out at all, imagine the irony if Ryoji had been a corrupted Philemon imbued with part of Nyx and Nyarlathotep's corrupted personas somehow, leaving Minato with some of his potential. The two of them, one forced to hold back the other, leaving both of them helpless...my, how happy that would make Nyarlathotep, if his machinations could result in that.

...that's probably too convoluted to work, though, and my Persona lore isn't as good as that of others...still, it's an interesting, if probably unworkable notion.

And yeah. The system of Persona 1 and 2.1/2.2 doesn't seem to mesh that well with Persona 3's, but it's interesting to give it a shot and see if one can come up with a crazy, mind-hurting way for it to work. Ah, how I look forward to Persona 4. :snigger:

GenocideHeart · Jul 13, 2008

Luthorne said:

The simplest way to explain it is that, over time, humans' potential to use Personae has diminished, and as a result, not only are most humans stuck with only one Persona, but they need a proxy (the Evoker) to manifest it at first.

Interestingly enough, extreme fear/terror is one way to manifest a Persona. An Evoker is basically a controlled, focused way of 'sparking' the power, as the game says it causes irrational, incredibly intense fear in those who level it at their heads.

Watashiwa · Jul 13, 2008

GenocideHeart said:

There's an even easier way though: Philemon himself. Perhaps with what happen to Nyarlathotep, for the sake of balance Philemon is unable to exercise his ability to grant Personae. The Persona that everyone in SEES use are the natural by-products of the existence of dreams/Philemon, while Minato is closer to being a traditional Persona-user (he still needs the Evoker).

And really: "diminishing of humanity's power", not so much. It's barely been ten years since P2 (thank you Mr. Kirijo for connecting the timelines). This generation of Persona-users were born around the time of P1, and most of 'em were kids around P2.

No, most likely Philemon has either been told by Yahweh/the powers that be to step out of human affairs, has chosen to do so, or is unable to act (if Nyarlathotep and he are connected, as may be the case, then Nyarlathotep's defeat might have ricocheted into Philemon).

Luthorne · Jul 13, 2008

Makes you wonder, though. Do they really need the Evoker after the first time, or have they simply not tried, just because they 'know' they need the Evoker to summon it? Or is it just easier to allow the Evoker to do the work, perhaps, rather than summon the Persona yourself, but it would still be possible to learn how to do it? Or, alternatively, if you go by Minato being the only 'real' Persona user of the group, could he have done it, and just never tried it because he thought he couldn't, not knowing he was the exception?

...Takaya figuring out he didn't need to use an evoker to summon a Persona...huh. That could be some bad news...maybe.

armedlord · Jul 13, 2008

Uh...Takaya doesn't use an evoker...the gun that he's holding is in fact, a real gun.

No, wait, I probably read your words wrong Luthorne...I think. :rip1:

Darkforce222 · Jul 13, 2008

I assumed Takaya didn't need an Evoker because his psyche was already that unhinged to begin with, the fact he clutches his head and spazzes out when summoning lends credence to that.

Oh, yeah, in one of The Answer's flashbacks, Chibi-Mitsuru was able to call her Persona without an Evoker out of will to protect her father. I assume that the Evoker is simply a less tiring method.

I honestly put the two groups into different categories: External-source, wherin their power is unlocked by Philemon, and natural, where the Persona is created and grows from their own will. Each SEES members' Persona awakened in response to a particular burst of will in the first place. Both have their upsides and downsides.

Luthorne · Jul 13, 2008

armedlord said:

He doesn't? *browses some videos* ...huh, you're right. I thought he did, since he started that last fight, at least, by putting that gun to his head...but in the actual combat, he just sinks to his knees and summons the sucker. Ditto Jin and his little spin thing...interesting. But... *checks* ...Chidori needed it, I'm pretty sure, since when you fought her, I think she had something that looked like an evoker, and you took it away from her so she couldn't summon her persona...how does that work? Is she just not as strong as the others?

Still, my bad.

Croaker · Jul 13, 2008

Opinion on the Evokers:

Ikutski was planning the backstab for a long time, apparently.
As mentioned, "extreme fear/terror is one way to manifest a persona." and the Evoker does that job, really, really well.

To me, it sounds like Ikutski went "Hey, we have these shortcuts to making people manifest persona. It would be convenient if I could disarm SEES easily when I betray them." and then purposely kept the knowledge that it was possible to manifest persona without an Evoker away from them.

And on the subject of "Wait where did YOUR persona come from?" the Old Documents scattered through Tartarus say the following:
Old Document 06: "I knew it. These Shadows arise due to human emotion. If I'm right, collecting them will..."
Old Document 07: "I've heard it all. The plan is evil. But, there's hope. If people could control the shadows inside them..."

I took it as an implication that most of the persona users are calling on that inner shadow for their persona.

armedlord · Jul 13, 2008

I take it that you never played FES yet Croaker?

zenaku · Jul 13, 2008

Most likely the Evoker is simply a tool. It is a way to focus the power needed to summon a Persona. BTW, I heard a rumor that the Evoker actually contains a feather from Nyx. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

Darkforce222 · Jul 13, 2008

I dunno, I heard of them containing "Twlight Feathers" or something to that extent, and it's what allows certain machines to work in the dark hour.

Incidentally, it's also the core of Aigis' Papillion Heart(P3 loves butterflies. A lot.). Of course, I don't think there's actually any confirmed source for any of this, but this is the second time I've heard of it. It's never actually explained what allows certain pieces of technology to work in the Dark Hour.

It's hard to get the specifics of what the Evoker actually is, as most sources differentiate. Mitsuru states in The Answer that she designed it like a gun to interest Akihiko, meaning it possibly could have been used differently.

My favorite explanation is the manga's though, which is simply that the subconcious fear of putting a gun to your head and firing unhinges your psyche enough to call out the Persona, which is what we've been going with here. Since the more "home-grown" Personas apparently need a massive amount of effort to summon, the Evoker makes the process far easier.

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