Naruto New Naruto Chapters 421+

[Emerald Oracle]

Ninja doing something morally questionable? Why, it's almost like they're mercenaries that use child soldiers to do awful shit!

It's not so much the morally questionable bit as it is the stupidity bit. Rather than do recon, or try to find out what the situation actually is , the description says that he's sending a shinobi in completely blind to assassinate a foreign head of state who may or may not have anything to do with the situation.

That sort of heavy handed militancy is Danzo's style. I would expect 'those who abandon their comrades are worse than trash' Kakashi to care more about his shinobi than to send one on a mission like that. I can understand sending in a capable individual like Shikamaru to ascertain the situation and then act on his own recognizance to resolve it, but sidspatching him to just straight up murder the problem without any knowledge of the situation on the ground is Danzo Style diplomacy.

 

[goldenarms]

Ninja doing something morally questionable? Why, it's almost like they're mercenaries that use child soldiers to do awful shit!

It's not so much the morally questionable bit as it is the stupidity bit. Rather than do recon, or try to find out what the situation actually is , the description says that he's sending a shinobi in completely blind to assassinate a foreign head of state who may or may not have anything to do with the situation.

That sort of heavy handed militancy is Danzo's style. I would expect 'those who abandon their comrades are worse than trash' Kakashi to care more about his shinobi than to send one on a mission like that. I can understand sending in a capable individual like Shikamaru to ascertain the situation and then act on his own recognizance to resolve it, but sidspatching him to just straight up murder the problem without any knowledge of the situation on the ground is Danzo Style diplomacy.

To be fair, the mission could include an assassination, but not be the primary objective. Sending in Shikamaru on a blind op would be the smart choice, as Kakashi will need someone to gather the intel that has gone missing to ascertain the situation, and then make the on-the-ground decision as to how to proceed. Because it wouldn't be the first time a Head of State was kept out of the loop of what his subordinates were doing, and in the case it is HoS responsible, there has to be an assassination to plan and fulfill, as well preparing an exit strategy, all of which will have to be created on the fly. If the problem proves to be too large or too difficult to handle via standard means, then we have to get that new intel back to the Hokage ASAP, and Shikamaru has a lot of experience in that area.

 

[Altered Nova]

Sasuke is way too much of a Debbie Downer to form any kind of lasting relationship with Hinata. She's depressing enough on her own, she needs someone bright and cheerful and supportive like Naruto to encourage her. Angry, brooding Sasuke would drive Hinata to suicide.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

Now, the main objection to Bolt acting a spoiled brat because Naruto was too busy was "Naruto has kage bunshin".
What if Naruto did actually used Kage Bunshin for a while to stay with his kids but did stop because he wanted Bolt to learn how to stand up for himself\whatever?

 

[AJ_Katon]

These two should have hung out.

Don't doujutsu users hate each other?

 

[atlas_hugged]

i never understood how, where or why people shipped Sasuhina. Now I understand a little. Still don't condone it.

I think a lot of the Sasuhina shippers were people who wanted to get both Sasuke and Hinata out of the way for their preferred Narusaku pairing.

 

[Emerald Oracle]

Ninja doing something morally questionable? Why, it's almost like they're mercenaries that use child soldiers to do awful shit!

It's not so much the morally questionable bit as it is the stupidity bit. Rather than do recon, or try to find out what the situation actually is , the description says that he's sending a shinobi in completely blind to assassinate a foreign head of state who may or may not have anything to do with the situation.

That sort of heavy handed militancy is Danzo's style. I would expect 'those who abandon their comrades are worse than trash' Kakashi to care more about his shinobi than to send one on a mission like that. I can understand sending in a capable individual like Shikamaru to ascertain the situation and then act on his own recognizance to resolve it, but sidspatching him to just straight up murder the problem without any knowledge of the situation on the ground is Danzo Style diplomacy.

To be fair, the mission could include an assassination, but not be the primary objective. Sending in Shikamaru on a blind op would be the smart choice, as Kakashi will need someone to gather the intel that has gone missing to ascertain the situation, and then make the on-the-ground decision as to how to proceed. Because it wouldn't be the first time a Head of State was kept out of the loop of what his subordinates were doing, and in the case it is HoS responsible, there has to be an assassination to plan and fulfill, as well preparing an exit strategy, all of which will have to be created on the fly. If the problem proves to be too large or too difficult to handle via standard means, then we have to get that new intel back to the Hokage ASAP, and Shikamaru has a lot of experience in that area.

As I said, sending Shikamaru makes sense, the issue is that the mission is explicitly called an assassination mission, and given the dearth of info that seems premature. Granted my issues may just be with the sensationalist way the blurb was written/translated to draw readers, but the point stands!

 

[ankokudaishogun]

These two should have hung out.

Don't doujutsu users hate each other?

100% fanon

 

[goldenarms]

Now, the main objection to Bolt acting a spoiled brat because Naruto was too busy was "Naruto has kage bunshin".
What if Naruto did actually used Kage Bunshin for a while to stay with his kids but did stop because he wanted Bolt to learn how to stand up for himself\whatever?

Remember when Naruto was playing poker with himself? Or the time he wanted his clones to do something he didn't want to do, and they refused?

That's some lonely shit, man. Playing games by yourself is one thing -- playing games using copies of yourself is 10x worse. And Lord knows, Naruto wouldn't want his kids to feel like that. Even if his work does take him away from spending more time with his kids, that would be far better than posting up a faux stand-in for himself. No matter how much he looks like him, acts like him, thinks like him, that clone isn't him. He can't bullshit himself on that, and kids don't want a substitute father, either. Not for every day life.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

The concept that Naruto's clones are an acceptable substitute for the real him is a slippery slope that ends in Chuunin Exam Day BS.

And nobody wants that.

 

[Altered Nova]

Can Shadow Clones really be considered fake copies though when they have their own souls? I mean, Hiruzen's Shadow Clones were real enough that the shinigami accepted their souls as sacrifices to pay for sealing away the First and Second Hokages. And it ate their still-existing souls several pages after the physical bodies of the clones had dispelled. Which means that a Shadow Clone's soul persists after the jutsu ends, and presumably passes on to the afterlife.

Which is actually kind of horrifying. Does Naruto commit mass murder every time he dispels a large group of clones? Just how many Narutos are in the Pure World?

 

[ankokudaishogun]

More likely, Kage Bunshin souls are fragments of the Original's, and to the Original they go back once the body are dispelled. That's how the Original gets the memories of the Clones.
Kind of like with Orochimaru and his Cursed Seals(I still think Chakra==Soul)

 

[nixofcyzerra]

Can Shadow Clones really be considered fake copies though when they have their own souls? I mean, Hiruzen's Shadow Clones were real enough that the shinigami accepted their souls as sacrifices to pay for sealing away the First and Second Hokages. And it ate their still-existing souls several pages after the physical bodies of the clones had dispelled. Which means that a Shadow Clone's soul persists after the jutsu ends, and presumably passes on to the afterlife.

Which is actually kind of horrifying. Does Naruto commit mass murder every time he dispels a large group of clones? Just how many Narutos are in the Pure World?

If that were true, then wouldn't the Shingami have spit up 3 copies of Sarutobi when Orochimaru put on that summoning mask?

IMO, Sarutobi basically used the Kage Bunshin to cheat the Shingami, to get "3 souls for the price of one." He basically created fake "pseudo-souls" out of chakra.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

If that were true, then wouldn't the Shingami have spit up 3 copies of Sarutobi when Orochimaru put on that summoning mask?

that would be explained by my "Chakra is Soul" hypothesis: they did fuse together back in a single soul.

 

[Altered Nova]

Ah, I guess the clones souls aren't permanent then. Or they are 'soul fragments' and fused back with Hiruzen's soul in the Shinigami's stomach. Or possibly Orochimaru simply ignored them and they just immediately went on to the afterlife, since he seemed to have control over the souls he freed from the Shinigami; the four Hokage souls stopped right in front of him and patiently waited to be revived with Edo Tensei, after all.

I dunno, I just don't like the fact that it's apparently possible to trick the Shinigami with Shadow Clones. I know it's been downgraded from a psychopomp to a glorified anthropomorphized sealing jutsu, but still. And why don't more people use Shadow Clones to exploit suicide jutsu like that?

 

[atlas_hugged]

Can Shadow Clones really be considered fake copies though when they have their own souls? I mean, Hiruzen's Shadow Clones were real enough that the shinigami accepted their souls as sacrifices to pay for sealing away the First and Second Hokages. And it ate their still-existing souls several pages after the physical bodies of the clones had dispelled. Which means that a Shadow Clone's soul persists after the jutsu ends, and presumably passes on to the afterlife.

Which is actually kind of horrifying. Does Naruto commit mass murder every time he dispels a large group of clones? Just how many Narutos are in the Pure World?

If that were true, then wouldn't the Shingami have spit up 3 copies of Sarutobi when Orochimaru put on that summoning mask?

IMO, Sarutobi basically used the Kage Bunshin to cheat the Shingami, to get "3 souls for the price of one." He basically created fake "pseudo-souls" out of chakra.

Shinigami may have been offering him a deal on those two souls though, considering they were supposed to be dead.

If I was a death god, I'd be willing to take any opportunity to get dead guys back, even if it means playing dumb: "whoa, I didn't know the 3rd hokage had two twin brothers willing to sacrifice themselves to seal his enemies! How incredibly convenient!"

 

[Yorae Rasante]

Why the discussion about the existence of soul fragments and they joining back with the original soul? We know it to be true, Orochimaru lost the soul of his arms and had to summon them back from the Shinigami after all

 

[da_fox2279]

Why the discussion about the existence of soul fragments and they joining back with the original soul? We know it to be true, Orochimaru lost the soul of his arms and had to summon them back from the Shinigami after all

If that's true, then why did he go to Tsunade and expect her to be able to restore them? Unless Tsunade knows how to undo damage that the Shinigami creates, Orochimaru just holding the Idiot Ball.

 

[Knyght]

She could have probably have undone the physical damage like what switching bodies accomplished.

 

[13ry4n]

Why the discussion about the existence of soul fragments and they joining back with the original soul? We know it to be true, Orochimaru lost the soul of his arms and had to summon them back from the Shinigami after all

If that's true, then why did he go to Tsunade and expect her to be able to restore them? Unless Tsunade knows how to undo damage that the Shinigami creates, Orochimaru just holding the Idiot Ball.

maybe he was really holding out for Sasuke's body.

 

[goldenarms]

Can Shadow Clones really be considered fake copies though when they have their own souls? I mean, Hiruzen's Shadow Clones were real enough that the shinigami accepted their souls as sacrifices to pay for sealing away the First and Second Hokages. And it ate their still-existing souls several pages after the physical bodies of the clones had dispelled. Which means that a Shadow Clone's soul persists after the jutsu ends, and presumably passes on to the afterlife.

The way I see it, Sarutobi used his soul to act like a splitter. While the Death God has his soul, it can also reach out through his Shadow Clones and ensnare others. Otherwise, one could just cheat the Death God by making Shadow Clones to circumvent that whole "death as payment" clause of summoning him.

And that just upped the horror factor of the Uzu nation -- one guy summons the Death God and ends like twenty ninja in one fatally fell swoop.

Why the discussion about the existence of soul fragments and they joining back with the original soul? We know it to be true, Orochimaru lost the soul of his arms and had to summon them back from the Shinigami after all

If that's true, then why did he go to Tsunade and expect her to be able to restore them? Unless Tsunade knows how to undo damage that the Shinigami creates, Orochimaru just holding the Idiot Ball.

maybe he was really holding out for Sasuke's body.

That's entirely feasible. Tsunade knew right away that Orochimaru was afflicted by a curse. It's possible that she would know of a way to counter said curse, but, seeing that he doesn't have the soul arms present, it wouldn't last. However, this being Tsunade, she could, in fact, extend the time he would have left by a far greater margin than even he and Kabuto can create. And seeing how Orochimaru wanted to age Sasuke a little longer, it's possible that Tsunade could have given him at least that much time with her medical mastery.

 

[Ashaman]

Shadow Clones form some kind of Network.

I'm not entirely sure how it works, but there is some kind of connection there, so the whole Soul Spliting idea is probably wrong.


Its possible Orochimaru didn't realize his Soul Arms couldn't be fixed at the time he went to Tsunade. He may have only figured out the full consequences of what Sarutobi did to him after he'd switched bodies the first time and he didn't have his Jutsu back.

Which is when he began to research the Death God Unsealing ritual.

 

[goldenarms]

Shadow Clones form some kind of Network.

I'm not entirely sure how it works, but there is some kind of connection there, so the whole Soul Spliting idea is probably wrong.


Its possible Orochimaru didn't realize his Soul Arms couldn't be fixed at the time he went to Tsunade. He may have only figured out the full consequences of what Sarutobi did to him after he'd switched bodies the first time and he didn't have his Jutsu back.

Which is when he began to research the Death God Unsealing ritual.

That could be true, too. At the time, Orochimaru didn't know what the fuck Sarutobi had summoned, and when he could finally see it, he was quaking in his shoes.

 

[Yorae Rasante]

 

[da_fox2279]

Can Shadow Clones really be considered fake copies though when they have their own souls? I mean, Hiruzen's Shadow Clones were real enough that the shinigami accepted their souls as sacrifices to pay for sealing away the First and Second Hokages. And it ate their still-existing souls several pages after the physical bodies of the clones had dispelled. Which means that a Shadow Clone's soul persists after the jutsu ends, and presumably passes on to the afterlife.

The way I see it, Sarutobi used his soul to act like a splitter. While the Death God has his soul, it can also reach out through his Shadow Clones and ensnare others. Otherwise, one could just cheat the Death God by making Shadow Clones to circumvent that whole "death as payment" clause of summoning him.

And that just upped the horror factor of the Uzu nation -- one guy summons the Death God and ends like twenty ninja in one fatally fell swoop.

That begs the question: if Minato had grabbed some random person (an enemy nin Konoha was interrogating, some civilian, whatever), could he have used that person's soul as the payment for the Shinigami, or would he still have to give up his own?

I ask, because I've seen that premise used in fics before, and I've wondered...