Naruto Of the Forest

[mortalone]

Tsunade's super strength was explicitly stated to be a chakra control technique.

Between when Kabuto attacked her and when she lifted Bunta's tanto, she had used her Genesis Rebirth technique.
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It is possible that she may even have less physical strength than Kakashi. To a ninja, this does not matter. This is a manga where an old man with back problems can fly around and smash things up. That's just the kind of story this is.

Tsunade's strength is explicitly called the pinnacle of what a human can achieve, then boosted with chakra to go beyond physical limits.

What crack are you reading on?

You are combining two ideas in the wrong manner. Nowhere is it stated that she has the most strength canonically before chakra enhancement. That is just plain wrong.

No, I'm combining them correctly. Read.

Now that's just lazy. If you have a panel you want me to read, then link it. Otherwise, no, I am quite convinced you are wrong.

See, I don't know exactly what you are thinking, but my guess is that you are making the mistake most people make in thinking about chakra through the eyes of a westerner. This isn't like "mana." Chakra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakra) continually flows through all living things. Without chakra you are dead, period. Without chakra flowing through your arm it will not move, period. (that is why Jyuuken works, and why it is so effective.) Tsunade is able to control the flow of that chakra to reach the maximum possible level of strength. However, that is a technique, not something she could do without chakra control. If she does not control her chakra she is no stronger than anybody else.

 

[Shirotsume]

Tsunade's super strength was explicitly stated to be a chakra control technique.

Between when Kabuto attacked her and when she lifted Bunta's tanto, she had used her Genesis Rebirth technique.
<a href='http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v19/c169/14.html' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v19/c169/14.html</a>

It is possible that she may even have less physical strength than Kakashi. To a ninja, this does not matter. This is a manga where an old man with back problems can fly around and smash things up. That's just the kind of story this is.

Tsunade's strength is explicitly called the pinnacle of what a human can achieve, then boosted with chakra to go beyond physical limits.

What crack are you reading on?

You are combining two ideas in the wrong manner. Nowhere is it stated that she has the most strength canonically before chakra enhancement. That is just plain wrong.

No, I'm combining them correctly. Read.

Now that's just lazy. If you have a panel you want me to read, then link it. Otherwise, no, I am quite convinced you are wrong.

See, I don't know exactly what you are thinking, but my guess is that you are making the mistake most people make in thinking about chakra through the eyes of a westerner. This isn't like "mana." Chakra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakra) continually flows through all living things. Without chakra you are dead, period. Without chakra flowing through your arm it will not move, period. (that is why Jyuuken works, and why it is so effective.) Tsunade is able to control the flow of that chakra to reach the maximum possible level of strength. However, that is a technique, not something she could do without chakra control. If she does not control her chakra she is no stronger than anybody else.

The problem here is that Narutoverse!chakra is inspired by realworld!chakra, but it's been given extra attributes that make that kind of reasoning get shaky- so much so that it's unclear if it can be applied.

"We've seen what adding chakra does- it adds force. Jumping off the bridge, pushing off trees harder, creating explosions. All we've seen is chakra releases, we have never once seen augmentation- there's nothing that even says it exists."

tl;dr: We're trying to apply real world stuff to something that's explained by rule of cool in a manga for kids. We're probably not gonna get far here, though it'd be cool to throw ideas back and forth.

 

[mortalone]

Tsunade's super strength was explicitly stated to be a chakra control technique.

Between when Kabuto attacked her and when she lifted Bunta's tanto, she had used her Genesis Rebirth technique.
<a href='http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v19/c169/14.html' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v19/c169/14.html</a>

It is possible that she may even have less physical strength than Kakashi. To a ninja, this does not matter. This is a manga where an old man with back problems can fly around and smash things up. That's just the kind of story this is.

Tsunade's strength is explicitly called the pinnacle of what a human can achieve, then boosted with chakra to go beyond physical limits.

What crack are you reading on?

You are combining two ideas in the wrong manner. Nowhere is it stated that she has the most strength canonically before chakra enhancement. That is just plain wrong.

No, I'm combining them correctly. Read.

Now that's just lazy. If you have a panel you want me to read, then link it. Otherwise, no, I am quite convinced you are wrong.

See, I don't know exactly what you are thinking, but my guess is that you are making the mistake most people make in thinking about chakra through the eyes of a westerner. This isn't like "mana." Chakra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakra) continually flows through all living things. Without chakra you are dead, period. Without chakra flowing through your arm it will not move, period. (that is why Jyuuken works, and why it is so effective.) Tsunade is able to control the flow of that chakra to reach the maximum possible level of strength. However, that is a technique, not something she could do without chakra control. If she does not control her chakra she is no stronger than anybody else.

The problem here is that Narutoverse!chakra is inspired by realworld!chakra, but it's been given extra attributes that make that kind of reasoning get shaky- so much so that it's unclear if it can be applied.

"We've seen what adding chakra does- it adds force. Jumping off the bridge, pushing off trees harder, creating explosions. All we've seen is chakra releases, we have never once seen augmentation- there's nothing that even says it exists."

tl;dr: We're trying to apply real world stuff to something that's explained by rule of cool in a manga for kids. We're probably not gonna get far here, though it'd be cool to throw ideas back and forth.

The fundamentals are clearly tied together. Obviously the exact details of chakra mechanics differ, but everything from Sage Mode to the Hachimon to the Byakkugan/Jyuuken to the Sharingan's predictive abilities points to a close relation in the fundamentals.

I'm hardly an expert on chakra and even if I were, there's no one unifying theory, but it's important to remember that chakra flows through you every time your heart beats. It may be possible to stop your chakra for a split second (there are beliefs about Buddhist monks being able to temporarily stop their heart -- this has been partially verified in the real world as some monks can reduce their heartbeat to very, very low levels -- or even somebody else's creating a temporary death state), but as a general rule, if you are alive, chakra is flowing through you.

This means that there are three ways to get physically stronger:
1.) Build stronger muscles. (Ninja seem to avoid this. There are disadvantages to being larger.)
2.) Increase the quantity of chakra flowing through your muscles. (As in how Naruto stopped Orochimaru's summon in the Forest of Death.)
3.) Use chakra control to focus the release your bodies physical energy. (Tsunade's super strength.)

Ninja seem to rely on a combination of (2) and (3). Tsunade has taken (3) to it's absolute theoretical limit and has a very strong chakra giving her a lot of (2) as well.

But this is why I said that it's possible that "she may even have less physical strength than Kakashi." What I meant is that her muscles themselves are not stronger. In fact, given that she supposedly weighs only 48.9kg (108 pounds), she can't be very muscular at all. Muscle tissue is denser than fat. Of course this may be Kishimoto not knowing how to do math (how the fuck is Tayuya only 38.2kg...) but my point stands.

The reason she is stronger is she beats him soundly in (2) and whips his ass in (3). That's her super strength technique.

 

[Shirotsume]

That sounds nice, but there's absolutely nothing at all in the story that says that's how chakra works, and several things saying otherwise.

I this way a hell of a lot better than the manga's though.

 

[Knyght]

Given how lengthy this discussion has become, I moved all the contents to a <a href='http://z14.invisionfree.com/The_Fanfiction_Forum/index.php?showtopic=21910&st=0&#last' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>new thread</a> in the Talk section for more input. If you've got anything else to say on the matter then stick it in there.

 

[sinewyk]

So ... anyone pumped up so fucking much now that there's the sage stuff with the mokuton now, + some Jesus!Budda!Mokuton shit going on, like ... a pure smack of awesome through your face.

Come on, someone, write something epic about a Mokuton!Naruto, please ! :hail:

 

[Knyght]

And to think I wanted to tie-in Senjutsu with the Mokuton if I ever wrote this story. Looks like Kishi did it first. ^_^

I thought a good starting point for this would be during the scroll incident. Sure as hell isn't original but I figured it'd be more interesting than starting it later, though I think having the reveal happening earlier would be equally interesting.

Naruto steals a fake Scroll of Seals which was left in that area as a decoy. He gets away with it but discovers it's blank so he's screwed on that front since he can't really go back for a retry. Mizuki arrives and gets pissed that it's a fake, then Iruka discovers the pair of them. A fight ensues, Iruka gets hurts and Mizuki tries to murder Naruto. At which point the whole situation causes Naruto to awaken his Mokuton and kill Mizuki in the process - sort of a reflection of Obito's first major usage of it but on a single target. That's pretty brief summary on how where I'd have the divergence.

So does anyone have any ideas related to the story itself? Most of the discussion seems to focus on the mechanics and the divergence point.

 

[sinewyk]

So does anyone have any ideas related to the story itself?

Lol, I just saw your post saying that his marking on his face for his ninja registration photo kinda looked like the Shodai sage face ...

made me think of something that kinda could go like this ...

Hmm, these markings remind me of the first ... I've got to ask

"Naruto, where did you get the inspirations for these marks ?" Hiruzen asked.

"Haha, I don't know ! One day I fell asleep in the forest, and when I woke up and went to the river to wash me up a bit, I had these strange things on my face, and I never felt so alive, so I trained like crazy, and when I got back, they weren't there anymore, guess it was just earth that got really really sticky 'tebayo !"

Hiruzen fainted while thinking It is back

PS: It the first time ever I actually wrote a "little" piece of fanfic ... so if you could say something about it xD.

 

[Knyght]

Too short to rate. ^_^

Perhaps start by referring to Hiruzen so we know who's thinking. End the first thought with a fullstop and remove the spaces before the punctuation marks at the end of the sentences. "No idea" sounds more Naruto-like and that sentence is too long; break it down more. Hiruzen wouldn't faint. I think you should put a comma before the last thought and stick a full stop at the energy.

The idea of Naruto going into Sage Mode simply going to sleep amuses me. In reality though, it's difficult to say whether he could manage as a child given the stillness training he needs. Unless that comes more easily to someone who can probably turn into a tree. I doubt the elders would be ignorant of Hashirama's Sage Mode so Naruto might learn about that a lot sooner.

Unless his Sage Mode is tied to the slugs, in which case it's a lot less significant for Naruto. It's almost a shame that Hashirama's a sage since I though that would be a good way for this Naruto to surpass him.

 

[wingthesword]

I was going to do a Mokuton!Naruto once like four years ago, but it was going to cross with Darkstalkers a bit.

The basic idea was Morrigan got sealed by the First Hokage, maybe before the Village's founding, and her prison was a house. That house eventually came to be a rather high class house of ill repute because of Morrigan's influence, but business went south because of the Kyuubi attack and it was abandoned. Naruto is given the house by the Third Hokage after leaving the orphanage. So Naruto a Jinchuuriki with Mokuton is living in a Mokuton!house which is supposed seal Morrigan, a demon.

I was going to have Naruto absorb some of Morrigan's power and have the seal transfer from the house to him.

The Mokuton which creates life, plus a Succubus which is an incarnation of Lust affecting Naruto would have had interesting affects on him.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

just remember senjutsu chakra puts a lot of stress on the body _AND_ you need a cubic fuckton of chakra.
I'm not sure Kid Naruto could deal with it.

 

[wingthesword]

Authorial Fiat could fix that.

 

[Antimatter]

just remember senjutsu chakra puts a lot of stress on the body _AND_ you need a cubic fuckton of chakra.
I'm not sure Kid Naruto could deal with it.

He had a fuckton as a kid though. The gaara fight shows that pretty well.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

yeah, but that was 13years old Naruto.

 

[Knyght]

He was 12 at the time, but I don't know what your point is.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

weren't we talking about Academy kid Naruto getting Sage mode?

 

[Knyght]

No. sinewyk's snippet was set at the time when Naruto's photograph was being taken for his ninja registration.

Edit: Though I guess the "fell asleep in the forest" bit could have happened anytime.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

We must remember Naruto got tired not much slower than Sasuke during the tree walking trainin, and passed out(IIRC) after Tajuu Kage Bunshin-ing Mizuki.

 

[Knyght]

You mean the time Naruto used an A-rank kinjutsu, forbidden specifically because of the life-endangering chakra cost, to create over a thousand clones? And no, he didn't pass out. He didn't look tired despite spending however long learning the jutsu in the place.

The tree walking exercise which is the first time Naruto ever bothered to learn to control his chakra, and we later learn that he creates far too much chakra and doesn't use nearly enough. Which would tie into the fact that he was able to use the Tajuu Kage Bunshin to such a degree despite having such a huge waste factor.

I mean, it's not like we can say for certain whether Naruto could learn Sage Mode when he'd just graduated or soon before graduation, but I think you can make a damn good argument for it.

 

[sinewyk]

You mean the time Naruto used an A-rank kinjutsu, forbidden specifically because of the life-endangering chakra cost, to create over a thousand clones? And no, he didn't pass out. He didn't look tired despite spending however long learning the jutsu in the place.

The tree walking exercise which is the first time Naruto ever bothered to learn to control his chakra, and we later learn that he creates far too much chakra and doesn't use nearly enough. Which would tie into the fact that he was able to use the Tajuu Kage Bunshin to such a degree despite having such a huge waste factor.

I mean, it's not like we can say for certain whether Naruto could learn Sage Mode when he'd just graduated or soon before graduation, but I think you can make a damn good argument for it.

Imo he could.

His chakra control just sucks so much, he can't tell how much chakra he has, and just ... wing it out all the time.

That means, imho, that he has right now (genin exam period), in theory, the capability to handle/learn sage chakra ... but learning to sit still at that age ? dream again unless someone shows him how "awesome" it is.

I would rank him already in the top 10 of chakra capacities, with Kisame/Nagato and a lot of jinchuriki into it. Jiraiya has a lot, but imo he's not in the top 10, his pool/control are both very good, making him a real juggernaut (maybe Nagato is in the same category as Jirayia, high chakra/control thus juggernaut).

 

[Yorae Rasante]

Well, I believe he does have the chakra reserves, but I believe someone said to hold the energy is also taxing on the body? That would mean that he could use it for that quick burst, but not for a full-blown sage move due to his body not standing the energy long enough?

 

[zeebee1]

Supposedly Orochimaru could never get a body that could deal with the strain, and he's had a number of bodies.

The problem with the quick burst is that until one surpasses the normal limits of sage mode is that the power can not be gathered quickly.

 

[Knyght]

So after seeing it in a fanfic, I'm curious about what could be done with it: What if instead of Naruto just being another Wood Release user, he was the reincarnation of Senju Hashirama?

 

[ankokudaishogun]

Define what a reincarnation would entails.

 

[Knyght]

Fiction-wise, it usually involves the protagonist experiencing the memories of their past life gradually or all at once, changing them as their past life bleeds into their present one. Gaining knowledge they didn't possess, mannerisms they don't have and clarity/wisdom that comes from living for decades. Or the past life manifests as a conscious being within their mind so they can actually communicate and learn from them directly a la Avatar style.

Either or, really. Both have their merits.