The Apollo Inheritance

Vexarian

Well-Known Member
#26
cilrais said:
If a talking cat like Luna can their identities I'm sure the ship can do some sort of star seed scan or whatever to confirm that they are in fact reincarnations of it's rightful rulers.

Plus the ship probably only listed them as missing in action
Missing in action 15,000 years ago, if they claim reincarnation they by default are dead, not missing.
As for pedigree, all Senshi now have confirmed parents who are decidedly NOT the rulers of the various planets. What does reincarnation do with the line of succession? If this becomes a precedent who inherits, a natural born successor or a reincarnate, if both are alive at the same time?

Furthermore do you really want a fleet of about 8,000 starships and defense responsibilities spanning several systems to come under the absolute control of a teenager who has had no training for the job?

I can very well imagine some reluctance on Apollo's part because of the reasons above. OTOH, he's getting older and needs to start training a successor. Well, there now is a logical pool from which to recruit.
 
#27
Ordo said:
A question, does possession of the crystal automatically mean a person has the right to rule? I mean Beryl was working her tight little rear end off (by whipping her boy-toys into line) to snatch that crystal, and I doubt sheÆd have done so if it was beyond her ability to use. So it stands to reason that anyone with sufficient power, knowledge or resources could use the Ginzuishou. Thus for all Apollo knows, Luna & Artemis discovered the crystal and handed it to a girl who does have an eerie similarity to the Princess of the Moon.

And as to the question of why Luna & Artemis wouldnÆt rule the Kingdom themselves with the crystal: ÆI prefer to rule from behind the scene, the rewards are almost as great with less risk.Æ û Lando Molari

I could be wrong, but itÆs something to consider.
In the manga, the Crystal is the soul of Usagi, though it never gets explained how if it's Usagi's soul, her mother was using it.

Also, the Senshi powers are bonded to the user's soul, and (in fact) come 'from' their souls. So, for them to wield the powers they do, they 'must' be the incarnations of the Senshi.
 
D

Deleted member 5249

Guest
#28
Ordo said:
A question, does possession of the crystal automatically mean a person has the right to rule? I mean Beryl was working her tight little rear end off (by whipping her boy-toys into line) to snatch that crystal, and I doubt sheÆd have done so if it was beyond her ability to use. So it stands to reason that anyone with sufficient power, knowledge or resources could use the Ginzuishou. Thus for all Apollo knows, Luna & Artemis discovered the crystal and handed it to a girl who does have an eerie similarity to the Princess of the Moon.

And as to the question of why Luna & Artemis wouldnÆt rule the Kingdom themselves with the crystal: ÆI prefer to rule from behind the scene, the rewards are almost as great with less risk.Æ û Lando Molari

I could be wrong, but itÆs something to consider.
It was never possible for Beryl to use the crystal. The Ginzuishou could only be used by the Serenity line.

Metallia was an exception and could draw its power because she can absorb any form of energy including the energy released by the ginzuishou.


In the manga, the Crystal is the soul of Usagi, though it never gets explained how if it's Usagi's soul, her mother was using it.

Also, the Senshi powers are bonded to the user's soul, and (in fact) come 'from' their souls. So, for them to wield the powers they do, they 'must' be the incarnations of the Senshi.
I understood it as a lineage thing. The instant they stop being senshi it passes down to their children and they no longer can revive themselves as much as they want and that's why Queen Serenity couldn't come back to life her sailor crystal was already given to her daughter.

But I thought of it as Usagi being unique in the fact she bonded deeper to the Ginzuishou than anyone before her to the point where they were considered one being.

Personally I'm still wondering why Artemis and Luna were considered to be so important in the silver millenium in the first place since they were runaways from Mau.

If this becomes a precedent who inherits, a natural born successor or a reincarnate, if both are alive at the same time?
Whoever the Sailor Crystal chooses to go to since it's connected to planet as much as it's connected to the senshi.
 

Nikas_Zekeval

Well-Known Member
#29
The thing is Regents are appointed not just to fill in for missing rulers, but to fill in for rulers that are incapable of taking the throne, say they are not yet old enough, or other wise ready to do so?
 
#30
Nikas_Zekeval said:
The thing is Regents are appointed not just to fill in for missing rulers, but to fill in for rulers that are incapable of taking the throne, say they are not yet old enough, or other wise ready to do so?
Correct. One significant real-life example was France's Louis XIV, who became king of the nation when he was five due to his father's death, but obviously he couldn't rule a country at the age of five, so a regent was appointed and held power until the king was old enough to take the throne.
 

bissek

Well-Known Member
#31
And on the other end is George III of England, whose eldest son acted as regent for him from 1811 to his death in 1820 due to his apparent insanity (historians currently think the behavior that made people think he was mad were caused by the symptoms of a physical malady).
 

drakensis

Well-Known Member
#32
I'm probably going to have to rewrite some parts of this, because of how it's evolving. Which is good.

The Royal Moon Navy's ships were built primarily around having a sizeable corps of mages, with at least one capable (if not necessarily powerful) mage per ship. Obviously Apollo doesn't have this, since he isn't even a mage and is on his lonesome, so he's worked around the problem. He'd really like some mages though.

Senshi are extremely powerful mages due to their link to a planetary mana pool, and although not trained for operating a ship, would be a significant aid. Even Tux-boy, with a modicum of training, would be an asset. I'm viewing the Senshi status as being an office - when Beryl attacked, Queen Serenity's generation of Senshi were wiped out and their designated heirs (who would have been mages in their own right) were primed to take over automatically, subject to being activated (given the pens, basically). That was tied to the soul/magical core, which was reincarnated rather than the bodies which also died in the attack (or Serenity's mass reincarnation working, but without having heirs to pass on to, stayed with them. This had happened before in isolated cases and usually meant a gap in the succession for the affected Senshi until the reincarnate was old enough to be activated, and a dynastic scramble since while it was traditional to pass Senshi-ship down a family, reincarnation doesn't tie to a family.

The monarchy is not a magical working of the nature of being a Senshi and the Senshi are not part of the succession because they are senshi (although a blood relationship is possible, and in fact the case. For the purposes of the fic, in the Silver Millenium, Sailor Venus would have been fairly high up the succession, although her claim has the same bar as Usagi's). They are inherited by heirs of the body and reincarnation does not trump that. Usagi's claim to the throne is seen by Apollo in about the same way as I would be viewed if I walked into the parliament of Macedon and declared myself King by virtue of being the reincarnation of Alexander the Great: even if she can prove she is the reincarnation (possible, although Apollo can't do so himself) it doesn't make her claim legal...

Which doesn't mean that it might not be accepted. The situation is unprecedented after all.



Apollo curled up in his command chair and buried his face under his paws for a moment. "Computer, what are the laws of succession relevant here?" he mumbled.

"There are three hundred fourteen laws relating to succession to the Throne of the Moon Kingdom," the computer replied. "Do you wish to narrow the criteria of your request?"

"Yes!" the one-eyed Mau snapped before the computer could start reciting the laws vertabim. "Filter out those assuming living children of the deceased monarch."

"There are one hundred eighty-five laws relating to succession to the Throne of the Moon Kingdom under these circumstances. Do you wish to narrow the criteria of your request?"

"Filter out those assuming a declared line of succession."

"There are two laws relating to succession to the Crown of the Moon Kingdom under these circumstances. Do you wish to narrow the criteria of your request?"

"No," Apollo said. "From those laws, who decides who takes the throne?"

"The successor is to be nominated by the Senate of Nobles and requires approval by a sixty percent majority of the Chamber of Deliberators and confirmation of qualification by the Throne."

"Well that's just perfect," Apollo said out loud. "The Deliberators are all dead, and if they weren't they all would have met their maximum terms long ago. The Throne hasn't even spoken to anyone for ten eons as far as I know and the Senate... well, there are the Senshi, but four members isn't close to a quorum."

The computer, not aware of a question or a request, was silent.

"Is there an alternative?" he asked.

"If no successor is nominated by the senate within one standard year, a majority vote of the Council of Ministers may place nominations directly to the Throne."

Apollo brightened. "As Senior Fleet Marshal, I'm a member of the Council aren't I?"

"That is traditionally the case for the uniformed head of the armed forces," the computer confirmed. "Status unclear however, as Council members are appointed by the Crown."

"And Queen Serenity died before I got drafted to command," the Mau whined. "Dammit. What about the Regency?"

"Regents of the Moon Kingdom are specifically prohibited from nominating successors or from voting if applicable on nominations."

Apollo could swear in an impressive number of languages.
 

Vexarian

Well-Known Member
#33
drakensis said:
"The successor is to be nominated by the Senate of Nobles and requires approval by a sixty percent majority of the Chamber of Deliberators and confirmation of qualification by the Throne."

"Well that's just perfect," Apollo said out loud. "The Deliberators are all dead, and if they weren't they all would have met their maximum terms long ago. The Throne hasn't even spoken to anyone for ten eons as far as I know and the Senate... well, there are the Senshi, but four members isn't close to a quorum."

The computer, not aware of a question or a request, was silent.

"Is there an alternative?" he asked.

"If no successor is nominated by the senate within one standard year, a majority vote of the Council of Ministers may place nominations directly to the Throne."

Apollo brightened. "As Senior Fleet Marshal, I'm a member of the Council aren't I?"

"That is traditionally the case for the uniformed head of the armed forces," the computer confirmed. "Status unclear however, as Council members are appointed by the Crown."

"And Queen Serenity died before I got drafted to command," the Mau whined. "Dammit. What about the Regency?"

"Regents of the Moon Kingdom are specifically prohibited from nominating successors or from voting if applicable on nominations."

Apollo could swear in an impressive number of languages.
Sounds like no applicable laws whatsoever.

Two choices I think.

- Find a way to disband the Moon Kingdom, create a successor queendom and transfer the fleet to that successor.

- There is not going to be a successor to the Moon Kingdom as far as the fleet is concerned, the present state will continue indefinitely. Whether or not there will be a new queendom is entirely up to Usagi and whomever she recruits as the lower masses, but it will be inhabitants from Earth doing their own thing according to the fleet.

Apollo can of course accept new recruits into the Navy, and so arrange for his own succession, and if that successor happens to be friendly to the senshi ...

Or a third: reconstitute the Deliberators, elect new senators, and get the Throne speaking again. Problem is is there aren't enough for a quorum in the senate, there aren't enough people period.
The alternative is out since the Council of Ministers can't be reconstituted by the Crown until there is a Crown ...
 

Aarik

Well-Known Member
#35
:headbanger:

Im aware this is a Shoujo Magical girl universe so i am not infact surprised by the lack of common sense, And this has been bugging me a long ass time.

What the hell is wrong with them!? Who fucking cares what someone who by now is nothing but dust floating through the vaccume of space said was the law? The moon kingdom here and in canon is Dead, Why the hell do they follow the laws of a kingdom that has been dead for 10,000 years on a moon that is now a ball of dust that can't support life.

It makes no fucking sense espescially since in canon only Setsuna would remember the laws in question anyway, And she never really talks to anyone.

Rant end/

sorry been holding that in for years, And the conversation made it explode.

Fourth: "Fuck Serenity I'm not letting a kid who would nuke a country for ice cream have a space fleet damn it!"
 

Vexarian

Well-Known Member
#36
Aarik said:
What the hell is wrong with them!? Who fucking cares what someone who by now is nothing but dust floating through the vaccume of space said was the law? The moon kingdom here and in canon is Dead, Why the hell do they follow the laws of a kingdom that has been dead for 10,000 years on a moon that is now a ball of dust that can't support life.
Because the (semi-) sentient computers in 8000 or so warships are programmed to obey them to the letter in this fic :p
 
D

Deleted member 5249

Guest
#37
Im aware this is a Shoujo Magical girl universe so i am not infact surprised by the lack of common sense, And this has been bugging me a long ass time.

What the hell is wrong with them!? Who fucking cares what someone who by now is nothing but dust floating through the vaccume of space said was the law? The moon kingdom here and in canon is Dead, Why the hell do they follow the laws of a kingdom that has been dead for 10,000 years on a moon that is now a ball of dust that can't support life.

It makes no fucking sense espescially since in canon only Setsuna would remember the laws in question anyway, And she never really talks to anyone.

Rant end/

sorry been holding that in for years, And the conversation made it explode.

Fourth: "Fuck Serenity I'm not letting a kid who would nuke a country for ice cream have a space fleet damn it!"
Probably because in canon Usagi could say this at any time.

Usagi: Fine, you go fight all the Cosmic Horrors that are scared of me and revive the Earth. I'll just wait here. You can't? Then STFU!

She and the Ginzuishou were the sole reason Galaxia stayed away from Earth as long as she did.

Also the Moon Kingdom revived itself after Metallia IIRC but Usagi decided to make a new kingdom with Mamoru on earth.
 

fitzgerald

Well-Known Member
#38
Of course the fact that the main Palace computer and AI has been programed to recognize Usagi as the legitimate successor is going to throw another monkey wrench into the works.

Especially when Usagi starts restoring the Palace on her first visit to the moon.

Ciao
 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
#39
All right, Usagi and the Senshi have some firepower that Apollo needs. However, they are not in line for succession as they are not related by blood to any of the nobility. That said theàuniqueness of the situation suggests that some form of work around maybe called for.

Sounds like we need a rather talented Lawyer to figure out a loopholeà

Okay, Apollo has been protecting the Kingdom (or more accurately its colonies) for 10,000 years. There has to be some form of civilian government running those colonies especially if theyÆve managed to expand. Perhaps we can consider the representatives or local ministers from those colonies as legitimate substitutes for the Council of Ministers.
 
#40
I am not sure i understand the problem. As far as i know, Serenity was the heir. She died, but no one else took her place.

What's the big deal. She is *still* the heir, as no one is there to dispute her place. It's just anohter kind of resurrection.

:shrugs:
 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
#41
That's just it, she's not the heir. She has no bloodline connection to the previous queen. She has the power of the Moon Princess, but that is insufficent in this case to grant her the right to rule.
 

cilrais

Well-Known Member
#42
Ordo said:
That's just it, she's not the heir. She has no bloodline connection to the previous queen. She has the power of the Moon Princess, but that is insufficent in this case to grant her the right to rule.
I'm going with the fact that she has magical powers strong enough to wreck galaxies as her right to rule.
 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
#43
Then might makes right, and that is not a system that guarantees the continued stability of the Kingdom.

Edit:

For example, Goku is one of the most powerful beings in DBZ, that doesnÆt mean IÆd let him run an Interstellar Empire.
 
#44
she *is* the heir.

She might not (yet) have all her memories, but she is basically the same person. It might be more complicated if someone else had stepped up when she was dead, but nobody did.

frankly, you are just trying to see Escuses to bash her.

Edit: If blood meant something, the crystal wouldn't have accepted her anyway. At worse, it's as if the queen had adopted her.
 
D

Deleted member 5249

Guest
#45
Ordo said:
Then might makes right, and that is not a system that guarantees the continued stability of the Kingdom.

Edit:

For example, Goku is one of the most powerful beings in DBZ, that doesnÆt mean IÆd let him run an Interstellar Empire.
Without the crystal the kingdom can never be reborn again. Since its the Moon's soul as much as its Usagi. If it believes Usagi's good enough than she's good enough.
 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
#46
Tom_Badgerlock said:
frankly, you are just trying to see Escuses to bash her.
Ummm, how have I bashed Usagi? I'm pointing out why succession is a problem in the story as outlined by Drakensis. I donÆt think IÆve written one word against Usagi. Heck I wrote a snippet that should how I thought she might react to Apollo and it was fairly complimentary. Beyond that all I have done is to explain why having power is not sufficient justification to rule a government.

In the story Drakensis has outlined, the planets and moons do not get a say in who runs the Empire. The laws of succession as set down by the recognized authority (The Queen and her ministers, senators etc.) present a problem that must be dealt with before another ruler can be chosen. This story appears to be about the effect this conflict has on the characters involved.

From a certain point of view, the Kingdom never died, Apollo has been running things in the absence of any royal authority and at the moment he appears to have done a good job. To me it appears to be more a question of how the Kingdom continues on into the future, than bringing back the glory of the past.

OF course, as always, I could be wrong.
 
#47
of course it is about how the kingdom lives in the future.

But the last heir was Usagi in another body. It's just a body transfer, and the throne wasn't taken. Usagi was chosen by the crystal, which is the symbol of the crown iirc. Also, the crystal, i think, was the object permitting life in the solar system.

If there was anyone else to contend for the throne it would be another matter. But the case is, they need usagi, and she was the last heir in another body, *and* they need a new symbol of authority.

Edit: i am not saying give her full authority right now. But there is no reason not to be her regent until she grows up. Hell, given their longevity, a few centuries could be ok.
 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
#48
I wonÆt argue the æSymbol of AuthorityÆ though I have my own thoughts about that. I will say that Drakensis whole point is the Computer System and the laws themselves are not set up to take into account reincarnation. To them, sheÆs just a powerful girl with no blood claim to the throne. Perhaps Apollo will work away around it, perhaps not, we shall see.

Now IÆm going to sleep and thus I will not respond to any further thoughts, or arguments until the morning.
 
D

Deleted member 5249

Guest
#49
Also, the crystal, i think, was the object permitting life in the solar system.
It is just like the Golden Crystal is what allows life on earth and allowed the Golden Millenium.

Technically if she's denied the thrown, Usagi at any point could just make a new kingdom like she does in canon in Crystal Tokyo since she chose it over rebuilding the Silver Millenium. You also have to take into account by the time she's 16 the whole universe owes her one and would probably fight to let her become ruler as well. So at most the title as ruler might be delayed but eventually become hers.
 
#50
It's indicated in the manga that the Senshi are genetically identical to their previous incarnations. Otherwise, Chibiusa would not have been the 'first child of an Earthling and someone of the Silver Millenium.' Paraphrasing here, but still canon.

I know that even Earth science should have noticed something funny if she's not human, but they didn't. Figure they either didn't do the kinds of tests needed to detect her non-human genetics, or it's a side effect of the spell.
 
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