The Force Awakens Spoiler Thread
- Thread starter Contrabardus
- Start date
Well to be fair, Finn is originally just trying to escape...and then the First Order fires a weapon that destroys four planets worth of people. I think at that point the FO had lost any claim to the moral high ground.
[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU&list=PLHAxnTPgybyKi-Khk3R2R6qdAYhug7lLu[/video]
addendum:
Me: So.....you built a weapon that drains a star, to fire off a beam powerful enough to destroy multiple worlds at the same time from anywhere in the galaxy....
Hux: Yes.
Me: You've taken new borns from their families and trained them to put the First Order above their own lives......
Phasma: "Correct"
Me: "You're supreme leader had a hand in the wiping out of the fledgling New Jedi Order.
Kylo Ren: "He's very wise."
Me: "And you've constructed a technologically advanced military despite it being a flagrant violation of the terms of the Peace treaty you signed with the New Republic.
Supreme Leader Snoke: "It was unavoidable....."
Me: At this point I'm fairly sure I'd be justified in unleashing the Star Wars equivalent of the "Inglorious Bastards" upon your leadership.
[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU&list=PLHAxnTPgybyKi-Khk3R2R6qdAYhug7lLu[/video]
addendum:
Me: So.....you built a weapon that drains a star, to fire off a beam powerful enough to destroy multiple worlds at the same time from anywhere in the galaxy....
Hux: Yes.
Me: You've taken new borns from their families and trained them to put the First Order above their own lives......
Phasma: "Correct"
Me: "You're supreme leader had a hand in the wiping out of the fledgling New Jedi Order.
Kylo Ren: "He's very wise."
Me: "And you've constructed a technologically advanced military despite it being a flagrant violation of the terms of the Peace treaty you signed with the New Republic.
Supreme Leader Snoke: "It was unavoidable....."
Me: At this point I'm fairly sure I'd be justified in unleashing the Star Wars equivalent of the "Inglorious Bastards" upon your leadership.
Finn killed a whole bunch of his fellow stormtroopers when escaping from the First Order, long before they slaughtered trillions of people with Starkiller Base. And he knows they are all people who were kidnapped as infants and indoctrinated their whole life to obey the First Order, just like him. Those troopers were people he had known and worked with his entire life. But he never shows any hesitation before killing them, or any internal conflict or regret after having done so.
Now, I'm not saying he was wrong to do it. I probably would have done the same thing in his position. But it also bothers me that he apparently *wasn't* bothered by it.
Random trivia - According to the Star Wars Visual Dictionary, the stormtrooper that wiped a bloody handprint on Finn's helmet (FN-2003) was Finn's best friend. His sudden death rattled Finn and contributed to his decision to escape the First Order.
Now, I'm not saying he was wrong to do it. I probably would have done the same thing in his position. But it also bothers me that he apparently *wasn't* bothered by it.
Random trivia - According to the Star Wars Visual Dictionary, the stormtrooper that wiped a bloody handprint on Finn's helmet (FN-2003) was Finn's best friend. His sudden death rattled Finn and contributed to his decision to escape the First Order.
They remember what he did, that's for sure.
This guy should have a bigger part in the next movie. Maybe even have him be Phasma's replacement if she gets kicked out of the FO for lowering those shields and getting humiliated.
Yes, I know he gets shot, but it was survivable. He gets blasted in the chest and it throws him into the air, but the wound is actually pretty spread out and doesn't penetrate through him. It looks almost like it grazes across his chest instead of being a dead on hit.
All they really need to do is let him keep that weapon and maybe give him some burn scars and everyone will know who he is.
It's also worth noting that Poe probably had more to do with that initial destruction than Fin did. I don't think Fin really knew what he was doing and inadvertently caused more damage than he meant too. I don't really think he was fully aware of how many he killed in that escape and it was mostly property damage they caused outside of that control room explosion.
Not saying the First Order is going to forgive him, just that he probably wanted to leave with as little damage done as possible, but the circumstances kind of screwed that up.
I don't think he regretted doing it, but I did get the impression that it worried him a bit. He probably did feel a bad about it, but fear and the urge to get his ass the hell out of there before the First Order caught up with him kind of overshadowed that.
Seriously, as much internet love as this guy is getting, even as a meme, if he wasn't written into the script already, they need to make some adjustments and put him there in some capacity. Not saying make him a main villain, but they really need to give him at least a little more screen time.
This guy should have a bigger part in the next movie. Maybe even have him be Phasma's replacement if she gets kicked out of the FO for lowering those shields and getting humiliated.
Yes, I know he gets shot, but it was survivable. He gets blasted in the chest and it throws him into the air, but the wound is actually pretty spread out and doesn't penetrate through him. It looks almost like it grazes across his chest instead of being a dead on hit.
All they really need to do is let him keep that weapon and maybe give him some burn scars and everyone will know who he is.
It's also worth noting that Poe probably had more to do with that initial destruction than Fin did. I don't think Fin really knew what he was doing and inadvertently caused more damage than he meant too. I don't really think he was fully aware of how many he killed in that escape and it was mostly property damage they caused outside of that control room explosion.
Not saying the First Order is going to forgive him, just that he probably wanted to leave with as little damage done as possible, but the circumstances kind of screwed that up.
I don't think he regretted doing it, but I did get the impression that it worried him a bit. He probably did feel a bad about it, but fear and the urge to get his ass the hell out of there before the First Order caught up with him kind of overshadowed that.
Seriously, as much internet love as this guy is getting, even as a meme, if he wasn't written into the script already, they need to make some adjustments and put him there in some capacity. Not saying make him a main villain, but they really need to give him at least a little more screen time.
Began reading through "Journey to the Force Awakens, Finn's story".
- Cadet training involve listening to glorious propaganda about the FO's victorys and the republics failures at least twice a day. Finn's not really interested in it though he claps and chants as appropriate
- Finn tries to help the group screw up, named Slip and he's the one killed on Jakku by Poe, all throughout training, even risking a training sim to keep him safe....and get's chewed out by Phasma for it.
- During the run up to Jakku Finn and his fellow training begin melee combat training with weapons apparently for the first time. Finn does well with an Electro Mace and shield. However that is against fellow cadets, and not veteran troopers and since the Storm Trooper corps now has people specifically trained for melee urban pacification I can see why he lost to the guy with the electro staff. You fight as you train so Finn's lack of experience using a Lightsaber type weapon put him at a clear disadvantage, though he does seem to be learning fast. A few more lessons with a capable teacher should have him swinging that thing with some talent in no time...if that's his path.
- Upon arrival at his new unit Finn is immediately marked as an outsider by the veteran Storm Troopers.
- His new unit is sent to purge a mining base of Republic saboteurs and provocateurs. However, upon arrival Finn notes that the 'Workers' are terrified, hurt, malnourished and almost entirely alien. Then Phasama lets slip that this is a Strike by the workers who are making demands of the First Order and has nothing to do with the Republic.
- Phasma brings Finn's unit to the negotiations, and orders them to Kill the workers. Slip fires first followed by the other members of the Fire team. Finn can't pull the trigger.
- Finn fires up a training program and at first shows his usual excellence....but then Civilians begin showing up and he can see only them, failing the training sim because he can't pull the trigger. Phasma notes this and plans to give him one more chance since she had such high hopes for him.
- Cadet training involve listening to glorious propaganda about the FO's victorys and the republics failures at least twice a day. Finn's not really interested in it though he claps and chants as appropriate
- Finn tries to help the group screw up, named Slip and he's the one killed on Jakku by Poe, all throughout training, even risking a training sim to keep him safe....and get's chewed out by Phasma for it.
- During the run up to Jakku Finn and his fellow training begin melee combat training with weapons apparently for the first time. Finn does well with an Electro Mace and shield. However that is against fellow cadets, and not veteran troopers and since the Storm Trooper corps now has people specifically trained for melee urban pacification I can see why he lost to the guy with the electro staff. You fight as you train so Finn's lack of experience using a Lightsaber type weapon put him at a clear disadvantage, though he does seem to be learning fast. A few more lessons with a capable teacher should have him swinging that thing with some talent in no time...if that's his path.
- Upon arrival at his new unit Finn is immediately marked as an outsider by the veteran Storm Troopers.
- His new unit is sent to purge a mining base of Republic saboteurs and provocateurs. However, upon arrival Finn notes that the 'Workers' are terrified, hurt, malnourished and almost entirely alien. Then Phasama lets slip that this is a Strike by the workers who are making demands of the First Order and has nothing to do with the Republic.
- Phasma brings Finn's unit to the negotiations, and orders them to Kill the workers. Slip fires first followed by the other members of the Fire team. Finn can't pull the trigger.
- Finn fires up a training program and at first shows his usual excellence....but then Civilians begin showing up and he can see only them, failing the training sim because he can't pull the trigger. Phasma notes this and plans to give him one more chance since she had such high hopes for him.
The second strike was a training sim Finn ran on his own initiative to work through his issues after failing to follow orders. He wasn't aware Phasma was watching him. That said, I figure you're right. Phasma tells him to his face (talking about Slip) that the weak links need to fall and be left behind so they will not sap the strength of the whole. The FO is not going to tolerate Finn's perceived weakness so making a break for it was his best option.
This doesn't make sense, because in the movie Phasma directly says that Jakku was his first and only offense and that he was exceptional in his performance prior to that.
I got the impression he was on the fast track to being an Elite Trooper if he kept going the way he had been before he broke down on Jakku.
That this is Fin's third offense and that he has had issues like this in the past is directly contradicted in the movie, and that trumps any novels or EU stuff as far as what is canon goes. It makes zero sense for Phasma to be lying about that given the context of the scene.
I think Fin's entire problem was really that it was a massacre and it wasn't something they really should have assigned to a trooper fresh out of training. If he had been sent out against an enemy force that was firing back and resisting he would have followed through, but gunning down an unarmed and captive village that wasn't resisting shorted out his programming and broke his loyalty. The guy who died was probably one of his friends, but at the end of the day, what he was ordered to do went against what he was told would be his job and contradicted whatever propaganda he was being fed about bringing peace and order to the galaxy. This is further reinforced by Hux's speech on Starkiller Base.
He lost faith in the First Order's ideals after that, but didn't run off to join the Resistance either. He just wanted out and ended up there because of his attachment to Rey and to some degree to pay back Poe for what he did for him.
I got the impression he was on the fast track to being an Elite Trooper if he kept going the way he had been before he broke down on Jakku.
That this is Fin's third offense and that he has had issues like this in the past is directly contradicted in the movie, and that trumps any novels or EU stuff as far as what is canon goes. It makes zero sense for Phasma to be lying about that given the context of the scene.
I think Fin's entire problem was really that it was a massacre and it wasn't something they really should have assigned to a trooper fresh out of training. If he had been sent out against an enemy force that was firing back and resisting he would have followed through, but gunning down an unarmed and captive village that wasn't resisting shorted out his programming and broke his loyalty. The guy who died was probably one of his friends, but at the end of the day, what he was ordered to do went against what he was told would be his job and contradicted whatever propaganda he was being fed about bringing peace and order to the galaxy. This is further reinforced by Hux's speech on Starkiller Base.
He lost faith in the First Order's ideals after that, but didn't run off to join the Resistance either. He just wanted out and ended up there because of his attachment to Rey and to some degree to pay back Poe for what he did for him.
Strictly speaking, you're both right. Phasam didn't issue a formal reprimand to Finn for failing to fire at the unarmed workers, since the rest of his fire team hesitated for a moment before Slip opened fire and all their targets ended up dead.. She just made sure he knew she noticed his hesitation. The training sim wasn't an official one. It was initiated by Finn to work through the issues of his previous mission, Phasma just happened to be keeping a close eye on him. So technically Jakku was his first official offense on record. Everything previous was off the record since Phasma had high hopes for him.
IIRC, in the novel it says the trooper who died was Slip, the one he was always taking care of.
And yeah, what we say here was a clash between what he was trained to do, fight and kill republic scum, er, republic troops, and being sent out to kill villagers, miners/etc. He always had an issue with compassion, and this was just the straw that broke the tauntauns back.
And yeah, what we say here was a clash between what he was trained to do, fight and kill republic scum, er, republic troops, and being sent out to kill villagers, miners/etc. He always had an issue with compassion, and this was just the straw that broke the tauntauns back.
Maybe not, but what I was getting out of the discussion was, "this movie was pretty bad at actually establishing any backstory."
The fact you have to dig up the script to read the cues, and the expanded universe tie-in novel, all that stuff, it's like, I feel like that's an indication that there was something really troubling about this movie, to wit:
It was a series of competently executed action set pieces, with no coherent narrative, it was just "and this happened, then this happened, then this happened, the end."
And the randomness of life could make a good thrust on its own, but not in a JJ Abrams movie, because he can't go three pages without a ludicrous coincidence.
It was a nice spectacle, but afterwards I was like, "whatever."
The fact you have to dig up the script to read the cues, and the expanded universe tie-in novel, all that stuff, it's like, I feel like that's an indication that there was something really troubling about this movie, to wit:
It was a series of competently executed action set pieces, with no coherent narrative, it was just "and this happened, then this happened, then this happened, the end."
And the randomness of life could make a good thrust on its own, but not in a JJ Abrams movie, because he can't go three pages without a ludicrous coincidence.
It was a nice spectacle, but afterwards I was like, "whatever."
Well you're entitled to your POV, but having extra information in EU books does not equal the movie was bad. TFA and Mad Max do not go into detail on their backstory and for the most part get by with visual story telling. For example, with Finn, seeing one Storm Trooper stop and try to help a fallen comrade immediately marked him as different from everyone else attacking the village. Later on seeing one Storm Trooper pull out an elctro-baton vs Finn wielding a Light saber tells me there's been a few alterations to storm trooper training. With Rey the anger on her face when she fought Kylo told me she was slipping towards darkness even if she did pull back in the end. With Kylo, even if I didn't know he was conflicted (which his earlier scenes established) the fact chewie shot him in the gut with a weapon that had sent strom troopers flying made it clear to me he was not fighting at his best.
For myself, I enjoyed the film a lot, and felt it's a good starting point from which to launch this new trilogy. Kylo Ren not being a fully trained force user appeals to me, and made sense the more I thought about it. Obviously it's not going to appeal to everyone, but for me it was a great film.
For myself, I enjoyed the film a lot, and felt it's a good starting point from which to launch this new trilogy. Kylo Ren not being a fully trained force user appeals to me, and made sense the more I thought about it. Obviously it's not going to appeal to everyone, but for me it was a great film.
Wait, Rey was intentionally left in the care of that fat sleezy junk dealer? The guy was clearly wasn't taking care of her and forced her to salvage junk from wrecked space ships for barely enough food to survive? And who sent thugs to beat her up when she refused to sell him BB-8?
... I'm starting to hope that Rey isn't actually related to any of the older cast. Because if she is related to Luke or Obi-wan or whatever, then her situation at the beginning of the movie would imply some rather shitty and out of character decisions on their part. I really don't want to believe that Luke would condone child abandonment or trust a creep like Unkar.
... I'm starting to hope that Rey isn't actually related to any of the older cast. Because if she is related to Luke or Obi-wan or whatever, then her situation at the beginning of the movie would imply some rather shitty and out of character decisions on their part. I really don't want to believe that Luke would condone child abandonment or trust a creep like Unkar.
It's not that having extra information outside the movie is bad in itself, it's that the movie doesn't feel sufficient to tell it's own story without mentally adding in stuff from the books or whatever.
Like, for me it was just an okay movie. I didn't come out of it thinking "well, that was a waste of two hours", but I didn't come out particularly moved, either.
And the reason why it didn't move me was because all of the character motives felt shallow, like they were all doing stuff because that would move the plot along, not because it's what they wanted (or felt the needed) to do.
Maybe it's a little unfair, but I was kind of hoping that it would launch the major epic film trilogy of the next five years, and... it didn't.
Like, for me it was just an okay movie. I didn't come out of it thinking "well, that was a waste of two hours", but I didn't come out particularly moved, either.
And the reason why it didn't move me was because all of the character motives felt shallow, like they were all doing stuff because that would move the plot along, not because it's what they wanted (or felt the needed) to do.
Maybe it's a little unfair, but I was kind of hoping that it would launch the major epic film trilogy of the next five years, and... it didn't.
We don't know the situation of how she ended up there. It might have been to save her life from whatever purge Kylo and Snoke were going about at the time, and it might not have been Luke or her parents that left her there, but other surviving students who knew that this was going to catch up to them and that there was no getting away from the confrontation. They may have intended to come back for her and only left her in his care temporarily, and then everything went south.
Secondly, Unkar is a creep, would have been more so if a deleted scene was included where he confronts Rey at Maz's bar. However, it's worth pointing out that she is far from starvation and in very good health. Better than most there in fact by the look of things. We also don't know the value of what she brought back to him, he might have been being cheap but fair for what she brought him. He isn't taking care of her and does try to take advantage of her, but she seems pretty able to fend for herself and is handling life there well.
I really can't fault whoever left her there's judgement given the condition we see her in, and it's not like she got left in the care of the Dursleys and locked up in a closet. He gave her a job and didn't act as her surrogate parent, she is clearly not a slave and it's made clear that she could have left if she wanted at any time. There was plenty of transport off planet going on, and given her skill set she could have probably signed on with a crew at any point. He's basically a neutral factor and acting as a selfish greedy boss character, not an abusive parent. There's no indication he's tried to pull anything like what he does when he tries to take the droid by force with her before.
He's not really any better or worse than Watto from Episode 1 as far as how evil he is just based on what is in the movie.
Incidentally, in case anyone was wondering, that's Simon Pegg's character.
Secondly, Unkar is a creep, would have been more so if a deleted scene was included where he confronts Rey at Maz's bar. However, it's worth pointing out that she is far from starvation and in very good health. Better than most there in fact by the look of things. We also don't know the value of what she brought back to him, he might have been being cheap but fair for what she brought him. He isn't taking care of her and does try to take advantage of her, but she seems pretty able to fend for herself and is handling life there well.
I really can't fault whoever left her there's judgement given the condition we see her in, and it's not like she got left in the care of the Dursleys and locked up in a closet. He gave her a job and didn't act as her surrogate parent, she is clearly not a slave and it's made clear that she could have left if she wanted at any time. There was plenty of transport off planet going on, and given her skill set she could have probably signed on with a crew at any point. He's basically a neutral factor and acting as a selfish greedy boss character, not an abusive parent. There's no indication he's tried to pull anything like what he does when he tries to take the droid by force with her before.
He's not really any better or worse than Watto from Episode 1 as far as how evil he is just based on what is in the movie.
Incidentally, in case anyone was wondering, that's Simon Pegg's character.
You could say the exact same thing about A New Hope. There are a ton of things that come up and are never explained in the film until the sequels and EU fleshed them out. You're just so used to having all the information about most of it available that you don't realize it. The story is simplistic and very basic, and the technical visuals the only real notable thing about the movie. There was never anything special about Star Wars as a story, anyone who saw the film in theaters back then will tell you that what made it what it was is the fact that no one had ever seen anything like it before. "Seen" being the important factor there, Lucas took a huge step forward in special effects and left a lot open to the imagination. It didn't need to reinvent the wheel with its story to work.
In episode IV, all the character motivations are shallow and they mostly did things to move the plot along, not because it's what they wanted to do. Luke is a farmboy hero trope who basically gets dragged along by Obi Wan and basically shoved into his destiny. Leia is barely in the movie and is pretty one dimensional. Obi Wan is just a Wise Old Wizard trope who is nothing but a plot device to bring our heroes together. Darth Vader is just a thug who spends what little screen time he has looking intimidating and manhandling people, we don't even hear the term 'sith' on screen until the prequels. What a Jedi Knight is is never really explained beyond a vague allusion that it was some sort of space cop. Han Solo is just looking to pay off a debt and taking a charter to do so and ends up in over his head. We don't really know the nature of Vader and Obi Wan's relationship. No information is given about the senate, who the Emperor is and what his role in everything is, or any number of other things that get fleshed out later on in EU stuff and sequels.
The story of Episode IV didn't really do anything new. It's all stuff we'd seen done in all sorts of fantasy and sci-fi films before it. The difference here was how that story was told visually.
Force Awakens parallels Episode IV to the point that it's on the edge of being a fault. Some would argue that it is, but most people don't seem to mind or actually enjoyed that about it. This includes about how it goes about world and character building and lacks explanation.
We as viewers are in the exact same position as we were walking out of the theater for the original Star Wars before Empire or Jedi. That's one of the great things about this movie, that it invokes that same feeling of what we don't know and brings up the exact same kind of speculation and questions that Star Wars and Empire had us asking after walking out of the theater in the late 70s and early 80s. The prequels didn't do this because we knew the basic plot already, all the important points were known factors going in, but this is entirely new ground and it's doing the exact same thing the first two OT movies did that kept them so relevant in pop culture for so long. There were people back then that said the same things you are now about the original Star Wars, and they weren't any more right or wrong about it than you are now.
This could be the launch of the next epic film trilogy of the next five years. That's what the big deal here is and one of the reasons it's being so well received. Episode VIII and IX have to step up to pull it off, but this is as good a start as Episode IV was. Probably better if you get right down to it, even if we don't factor in the previous six films, if anything we come out of Force Awakens with a lot more information than we had coming out of A New Hope. Just on the basis of a comparison of the two first in the trilogy films as a stand alone story, we know more now about the characters and universe set up in Episode VII than we did about the characters and seting in Star Wars exiting the theater in 1977. Hell, we didn't even know there was going to be a sequel to Star Wars until a few years later, it wasn't like it was a given back then like it is today, even with the massive success of the film factored in.