Naruto The Naruto Question Thread

[ankokudaishogun]

To me, Fugaku's saying that just a week wouldn't have made a difference and trying to teach him again would be pointless.

exactly. I can't see how that page might imply a week passed.

 

[Altered Nova]

This page implies it was a week:

edit: I just realized something. Either Sasuke was greatly weakened by his Tsukuyomi-induced coma, or Naruto somehow did manage to become fast as Lee without weights during the search for Tsunade without even training for that.
Otherwise, Sasuke should have been able to speed-blitz Naruto

If you're talking about the valley of the end fight, <a href='http://www.mangareader.net/93-224-35/naruto/chapter-219.html' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>he was speed-blitzing Naruto.</a>

 

[Knyght]

To me, Fugaku's saying that just a week wouldn't have made a difference and trying to teach him again would be pointless.

exactly. I can't see how that page might imply a week passed.

No, that's not what I meant.

I'm saying Fugaku, after a week has already passed, was saying to Sasuke that going back out to do the jutsu again wouldn't have made a difference. From my intepretation, Fugaku doesn't know that Sasuke had been going out to train independently and assumes that this would be a second time.

Also, in this did occur in day, how did Sasuke manage it without suffering chakra exhaustion? The technique in question takes more chakra than most rookie genin can generate and 7/8-year old Sasuke was attempting it continuously overnight, apparently without any food or sleep. And how would he manage to stay out all night long without being noticed? Whilst I'm being nitpicky, where did those plasters come from; it's unlikely that Sasuke would bother to put them on when he returns when he'd instead be looking for his dad.

 

[TC_Hazard]

This page implies it was a week:

edit: I just realized something. Either Sasuke was greatly weakened by his Tsukuyomi-induced coma, or Naruto somehow did manage to become fast as Lee without weights during the search for Tsunade without even training for that.
Otherwise, Sasuke should have been able to speed-blitz Naruto

If you're talking about the valley of the end fight, <a href='http://www.mangareader.net/93-224-35/naruto/chapter-219.html' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>he was speed-blitzing Naruto.</a>

That's pretty much before the 'real' fight begins though and the only time we something like that with baseline Naruto and Sasuke.

There seem more even speedwise during other clashes, which include a Chidori charge

<a href='http://www.mangareader.net/93-231-8/naruto/chapter-226.html' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>http://www.mangareader.net/93-231-8/naruto/chapter-226.html</a>
<a href='http://www.mangareader.net/93-231-16/naruto/chapter-226.html' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>http://www.mangareader.net/93-231-16/naruto/chapter-226.html</a>

Mind you, I would say Sasuke is faster but not to the extend Rock Lee was faster than Naruto during the Chuunin Exams. Honestly, given the sheer amount of chakra control required for the Rasengan (even with Naruto's shorcuts), I wouldn't be surprised if that had helped him boost his other stats.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

This page implies it was a week:

edit: I just realized something. Either Sasuke was greatly weakened by his Tsukuyomi-induced coma, or Naruto somehow did manage to become fast as Lee without weights during the search for Tsunade without even training for that.
Otherwise, Sasuke should have been able to speed-blitz Naruto

If you're talking about the valley of the end fight, <a href='http://www.mangareader.net/93-224-35/naruto/chapter-219.html' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>he was speed-blitzing Naruto.</a>

Nope, he's just marginally faster than Naruto... he should be WAAAAAAAAAAAAY faster..
Naruto manages to keep up with him, and he shouldn't be able to keep up with somebody as fast as Lee without weights

I'm saying Fugaku, after a week has already passed,

I honestly cannot see where you get "one week has already passed".
This is Fugaku saying Sasuke "This jutsu is still too hard for you, and will still be too hard even a week from now"

Also, in this did occur in day, how did Sasuke manage it without suffering chakra exhaustion?

Given his initial tentative made a small flame, I suppose it's a mix of him not using enough chakra(until he gets it right) and RESTING BETWEEN TRIES
Training all time doesn't mean never stop, unless you are Naruto.

it's unlikely that Sasuke would bother to put them on when he returns when he'd instead be looking for his dad.

You are forgetting Sasuke had a caring mother

oh, and I just noticed Itachi did use the mangekyo TWICE on Sasuke, the night of the massacre.

Honestly, given the sheer amount of chakra control required for the Rasengan (even with Naruto's shorcuts), I wouldn't be surprised if that had helped him boost his other stats.

Most likely, but such an improvement seems excessive to me, given he didn't train for speed, unlike Sasuke

 

[Knyght]

No. ^_^

 

[TC_Hazard]

Most likely, but such an improvement seems excessive to me, given he didn't train for speed, unlike Sasuke

Well, it's not like he just now started to get faster. When he first met Lee, he was a slowpoke even compared to Lee with weights on. Both him and Sasuke were.

By the time of his fight with Neji, Naruto was... well he was slower than Neji. Pretty sure there is a page where his clones outright admit he is too fast for them.

It kind of looks bad, but consider what happened when he fought a weighted Lee, and a normal Neji is in all likelihood faster than a weighted Lee. I think even by then Naruto had gotten naturally faster, it's just that his enemy was still faster so it wasn't as noticeable. His growth until the Valley of End seems a natural extension of that.

Plus, Sasuke did it in one month and he didn't only train for speed. He learned the Chidori as well.

 

[Altered Nova]

Sasuke didn't seem to be going full speed against Naruto at the Valley of the End. When he was moving at full Rock Lee without weights speed against Gaara, it was because that was the only way to get past the sand, <a href='http://www.mangareader.net/93-117-6/naruto/chapter-112.html' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>and it exhausted him quickly.</a>

Sasuke doesn't need to move that fast to hit Naruto and he knows that Naruto is a stamina monster. Burning through all of his stamina to move at that speed against him would be a self-defeating strategy.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

Plus, Sasuke did it in one month and he didn't only train for speed. He learned the Chidori as well.

Two weeks. And it seems the Chidori was a last minute(well, last days) thing, as Kakashi states they were late because of that

and it exhausted him quickly.

I did forget about that. The problem is, he did use the cursed seal before using Lee's speed, which doesn't make much sense...

 

[seitora]

Sasuke didn't seem to be going full speed against Naruto at the Valley of the End. When he was moving at full Rock Lee without weights speed against Gaara, it was because that was the only way to get past the sand, <a href='http://www.mangareader.net/93-117-6/naruto/chapter-112.html' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>and it exhausted him quickly.</a>

Sasuke doesn't need to move that fast to hit Naruto and he knows that Naruto is a stamina monster. Burning through all of his stamina to move at that speed against him would be a self-defeating strategy.

Pretty much what this guy said.

 

[Lord Raine]

The way I figure it, Hand Seals are the shortcut - the long way of doing it is elemental recomposition training. Sasuke and Naruto both have panels where they start producing elemental chakra with no hand seals at all.

Of course, there are also panels where Sasuke had to use hand seals to activate techniques that he can activate without them. So, yeah.

I still hold to the old theory I came up with, where five of the twelve core handseals that correspond to the Zodiac are elemental seals, which convert your chakra into that element when you use them. All elemental recomposition training does is teach you how to do that on your own, without using that handseal.

I even had a big logical discourse on which seals were what, and why.

 

[TC_Hazard]

Sasuke didn't seem to be going full speed against Naruto at the Valley of the End. When he was moving at full Rock Lee without weights speed against Gaara, it was because that was the only way to get past the sand, <a href='http://www.mangareader.net/93-117-6/naruto/chapter-112.html' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>and it exhausted him quickly.</a>

Sasuke doesn't need to move that fast to hit Naruto and he knows that Naruto is a stamina monster. Burning through all of his stamina to move at that speed against him would be a self-defeating strategy.

That's a possibility.

Considering Sasuke used the Chidori against Naruto which pretty much requires him to go at full speed because it's sort of the point of using it, I wouldn't be much inclined to it.

Mind you, it is a possibility.

 

[Knyght]

Plus, Sasuke did it in one month and he didn't only train for speed. He learned the Chidori as well.

Two weeks. And it seems the Chidori was a last minute(well, last days) thing, as Kakashi states they were late because of that

 

[TC_Hazard]

The way I figure it, Hand Seals are the shortcut - the long way of doing it is elemental recomposition training.? Sasuke and Naruto both have panels where they start producing elemental chakra with no hand seals at all.

Of course, there are also panels where Sasuke had to use hand seals to activate techniques that he can activate without them.? So, yeah.

I still hold to the old theory I came up with, where five of the twelve core handseals that correspond to the Zodiac are elemental seals, which convert your chakra into that element when you use them. All elemental recomposition training does is teach you how to do that on your own, without using that handseal.

I even had a big logical discourse on which seals were what, and why.

Well, Sasuke does identify the Tiger seal as a signifier for a fire jutsu, and I am pretty sure Kakashi realizes Kakuzu used Doton because of the hand seal he used at the beginning, so it does make a degree of sense.

 

[trevelyan1983]

I even had a big logical discourse on which seals were what, and why.

I remember that! I'm pretty sure that was the first time I recognized that this WiMtbS thing might be good shit.

 

[Altered Nova]

Here is Lord Raine's Handseal Theory. Yes, I saved it during one of my archive binges. Aside from the Uchiha basing I think it's pretty darn good.

Handseals

According to what is currently canon, you need to use elemental chakra to use elemental jutsu. However, this is contradicted by Sasuke using Katon jutsu as a child, because he was never canonically trained to convert his chakra to fire elemental chakra. (There's also the fact that, according to both Kakashi and Yamato, elemental training takes a long time and a lot of hard work, and it's extremely doubtful that a seven year old Sasuke was capable of such a thing.)

In light of this, I have created a system that will hopefully not only explain this seeming contradiction, but will also help deepen and enrich the concept of jutsu.

Handseals:

Handseals serve an important function to chakra users, in that they allow the user to mold and shape their chakra in the correct way to utilize jutsu. Because each handseal can shape and mold chakra in a different way, stringing multiple handseals together can create increasingly complex effects.

While it is a general rule of thumb that more powerful jutsu require more handseals (because they involve complex effects), this is not always true. Some of the most infamous and legendary jutsu are actually relatively simple at heart, and require only one or two handseals, if any at all.

However, while handseals are extremely important, they are also, at their core, a crutch of sorts, because they mold and shape the user's chakra for them. Identical affects could be accomplished through training and chakra control, and high-level chakra users or individuals with a high degree of control can easily drop certain seals from their jutsu, because those seals are no longer needed; they can mold their chakra in that manner without seals.

To this end, chakra control is essential to powerful chakra users, because it allows them to use their abilities and techniques with greater speed. The less seals you require, the faster you can fight and cast jutsu.

The Twelve Primary Handseals:

The twelve primary handseals act as the core handseals for chakra users. Each of the twelve handseals represents a different animal of the Zodiac, along with a different celestial house and planet.

The purpose of handseals is to mold and shape chakra, and to that end, different combinations of handseals have different effects.

The Elemental Handseals:

Among the twelve standard seals for jutsu, each of which represents an animal of the Zodiac, there are five seals that are special, in that they convert your normal chakra into elemental chakra for you automatically when used.

They are:

Tora (Tiger): The Fire seal.
U (Rabbit/Hare): The Wind seal.
Tatsu (Dragon): The Water seal.
Mi (Snake/Serpent): The Earth seal.
Tori (Bird/Rooster): The Lightning seal.

These elemental handseals are used by ninjutsu users who have not yet mastered or trained in elemental manipulation. They are, just like the other seven "normal" seals, crutches, as they allow someone who normally has no power over a given element to make use of jutsu that use that element.

However, these five handseals are considered to be more vital and important than the other seven, because unlike those seven, the elemental seals cannot be dropped or ignored simply by improving one's control. Only mastery of an elemental training exercise would allow someone to drop an elemental handseal, because only mastering the ability to shift the elemental nature of their chakra to another element would render an elemental seal obsolete.

Beyond the Twelve Core Seals:

While the twelve primary handseals cover the basics for most chakra use, there are still some techniques that require a more exotic or extreme touch. These techniques and jutsu utilize what are known as "off-seals" and "secret seals", or seals that are not part of the twelve core seals known by all shinobi.

These seals serve two primary functions:

1.) To provide an effect or shape chakra in a manner that would be impossible with the twelve core seals (in this context, 'impossible' is defined as "far too many to be of any use", as there are actually very few effects that could not be created with the twelve core seals, provided they were used in the correct (often extremely long) sequence and given enough time. However, an effect that would otherwise take hundreds or thousands of seals to create is considered "impossible" for the sake of the term).

2.) To keep certain specific techniques and abilities exclusive to a group, organization, or family. Most powerful clans have created their own secret handseals, and the clan's hijutsu (secret techniques) are designed to require this handseal to operate properly. Most villages also possess one or more secret seals, which are usually tied into that villages secret or forbidden techniques, and are jealously guarded.


As one might imagine, secret seals are highly sought-after, and considered to be the foundation of a clan's or village's power, as they represent that group's capacity to do things that others cannot.

To this end, clan and village hijutsu are only taught to individuals who are also trained in control to drop that secret seal. This ensures that the secret to a village's or clan's power cannot be stolen or imitated; as long as the seal or seals required remains a secret, the hijutsu cannot be copied or imitated.

As to the function of hijutsu seals, they are nearly limitless in potential. Most are the result of generations of experimentation and practice, and are highly refined as a result. Most provide unusual or exotic effects to a jutsu, often far more extreme than anything a normal handseal could accomplish. There are rumors of hijutsu seals that can do everything from making illusions semi-solid, to allowing the user to acquire animalistic traits, to opening up whole new elemental routes (rumors of "Metal jutsu" have persisted for generations), and even to allowing the user to fuse elemental chakras without a bloodline or blood limit that allows them to do so (rumors also persist of a secret "Ice seal", with claims ranging from the royal family of Snow country to a handful of clans that reside within the Hidden Village of Mist).


Known hijutsu seals in canon include:

The cross-shaped seal required for Kage Bunshin.

The triangle-shaped seal required for Yamanaka hijutsu.

The Sharingan:

A specific Kekkei Genkai, namely the Sharingan, bears mentioning, because one of its powers is uniquely tied into the concept of handseals.

Namely, it's ability to "copy" (some would claim "steal") jutsu and techniques.

One of the Sharingan's most infamous abilities, the ability to snatch jutsu from someone else, is, in fact, an exercise in memory and visual deconstruction. At will, a Sharingan user can choose to memorize whatever they see with their Sharigan.*

In the case of jutsu, this means that they memories the sequence of handseals used to achieve the effect. Thus, an Uchiha isn't "copying" a jutsu so much as they are remembering the handseals needed to perform those jutsu.

This is a great boon to young and inexperienced Uchiha, who often find themselves in direct contest with others who make prodigious use of handseals. To older and more experienced Uchiha, however, the ability loses much of its application in the field of ninjutsu, because their opponents are both skilled enough to know how to drop multiple handseals from their jutsu and wise enough to know to drop as many seals as possible, lest they be on the receiving end of their own techniques.

It is also rumored that the ability to effortlessly memorize handseals has made many Uchiha lazy in regards to chakra control and refinement, as few Uchiha are ever seen fighting without making use out of most or even all of the seals needed to cast the jutsu. Said claims are rebuffed by the Uchiha, who say there's nothing to them.

Other rumors, like the Sharingan actually forcing the Uchiha to use all the handseals of jutsu they've copied as a direct side-effect of copying them in the first place, are similarly rebuffed.


* Or so the Uchiha claim. Other, non-Uchiha accounts claim that the Uchiha cannot control what they remember, and simply remember everything they see when their Sharingan is active, regardless of what it might be or how important (or trivial) it is. Whether or not this is true is unknown, though it could potentially explain the occasional mental degradation among Uchiha; if their Sharingans were preventing them from forgetting things, their mental capacity would slowly degrade, their minds robbed of the basic ability to "clean house" and forget unimportant information. Given enough time and overexposure, this would almost certainly drive an individual mad, though exactly how that madness would manifest would depend entirely on the individual (i.e. obsessions, obsessive-compulsive, fits of insanity, uncontrollable physical or verbal tics, ect).

 

[ankokudaishogun]

Plus, Sasuke did it in one month and he didn't only train for speed. He learned the Chidori as well.

Two weeks. And it seems the Chidori was a last minute(well, last days) thing, as Kakashi states they were late because of that

Same chapter where Sasuke gets out of the hospital an meet Kakashi.

So, yeah, just 2 weeks: Guy simply didn't know Sasuke wasn't trained for the whole month.



that said, I do agree it's very likely a number of handseals are tied to elemental conversion(at very least Tiger is tied to Fire).
The thing I hate most of Kishimoto is him making a pretty awesome world and then not giving us enough informations to understand it.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

Plus, Sasuke did it in one month and he didn't only train for speed. He learned the Chidori as well.

Two weeks. And it seems the Chidori was a last minute(well, last days) thing, as Kakashi states they were late because of that

<a href='http://i20.mangareader.net/naruto/112/naruto-2286.jpg' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>http://i20.mangareader.net/naruto/112/naruto-2286.jpg</a>

Wait, Sasuke only copied 1 move. How'd he learn Lee's whole style?

...Kakashi, you dick.

 

[ankokudaishogun]

Plus, Sasuke did it in one month and he didn't only train for speed. He learned the Chidori as well.

Two weeks. And it seems the Chidori was a last minute(well, last days) thing, as Kakashi states they were late because of that

<a href='http://i20.mangareader.net/naruto/112/naruto-2286.jpg' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>http://i20.mangareader.net/naruto/112/naruto-2286.jpg</a>

Wait, Sasuke only copied 1 move. How'd he learn Lee's whole style?

...Kakashi, you dick.

I think it was something on the lines of "Sasuke actually managed to use one of Lee's moves, which did mean his body was strong enough to learn more of that style. So I went and did teach him that"

 

[zeebee1]

There is nothing inherently wrong with using the tools at your disposal to survive a rampaging mass murderer. I do not recall a single complain in the manga about the evil stealing abilities of the Sharingan.

 

[Altered Nova]

Lee never complained that Sasuke copied his taijutsu. He was impressed and jealous, but he didn't hate Sasuke for doing it. No one else did either.

Seriously this is one of the biggest things that annoys me when people bitch about it in fanfiction. They're all ninja, stealing jutsu is part of the job description. They fully understand that if they don't want someone to steal their jutsu, they either shouldn't let anyone see it, or make sure no one who sees it survives.

I mean, it'd be one thing if you broke into a comrade's house and stole his family jutsu scrolls, but if someone challenges you to a fight and shows off all their jutsu, or they're battling in front of a crowd of hundreds of people they have no reason to expect that their techniques will remain secret.

 

[Shirotsume]

If I recall, the very next page was Gai being pissed about it.

 

[Altered Nova]

No he wasn't.

 

[Knyght]

Plus, Sasuke did it in one month and he didn't only train for speed. He learned the Chidori as well.

Two weeks. And it seems the Chidori was a last minute(well, last days) thing, as Kakashi states they were late because of that

Same chapter where Sasuke gets out of the hospital an meet Kakashi.

So, yeah, just 2 weeks: Guy simply didn't know Sasuke wasn't trained for the whole month.

Hm, you're right. My bad.

That means that, after being bed-ridden for a while, Sasuke was able to increase his speed, adopt a new taijutsu styke and learn an A-rank jutsu within two weeks. Makes Naruto look kind of pathetic, at least until you realise that he was able to take down Gaara with only some better chakra control and a haphazard summoning on his side.

I wonder why he was late though. It's unlikely that he'd be practising such a draining technique on the same day of the exams. Perhaps that canyon they're in is really far away and they left on exam day.

On another note, Gai was upset but it wasn't about the fact Lee's taijutsu had been copied. It was because if Lee can't beat Gaara then "some hastily learnt taijutsu" wouldn't make a difference. Cue Chidori.

 

[Bill Felix]

It'd be impossible to sympathize with Gai even if he got mad about it.

Gai is the one who taught Lee a bunch of high level forbidden techniques BEFORE he even knew who Lee would go up against in the tournament. It doesn't matter how much discretion he took in letting Lee use the moves, it was still irresponsible teaching.

Kakashi taught Sasuke the Chidori after he fought against an S-class criminal and in preparation to fight against Gaara. And then took Lee's taijutsu because it was the closest thing that would work.

The fact that Kakashi did it AFTER it was clear that Sasuke needed it actually makes Kakashi more responsible in training taijutsu than Gai.

Which is why reading Foxhound is still hilarious to this day.