Bleach Zangetsu or No Zangetsu
- Thread starter Vexarian
- Start date
goldenwolfeye said:
fenixzero said:
*Between you and LR*
Lastly, I bring to the table Chapter -15, specifically this page:
Hitsugaya saw and 'heard' (partly at least) Hyrinmaru before he become a Shinigami.
And Matsumoto says here that once a person can properly hear that voice and control it, they become a Shinigami. This is pretty much what happened to Ichigo. Zangetsu was calling out to Ichigo, for at least three days at that point, possibly more, without being heard properly. Once Ichigo found Zangetsu, again or for the first time, he returned to being a Shinigami.
That chapter (-15) shows that a person with high level of spiritual power can have a Zanpakutou spirit inside of them, waiting to be called out. Also consider that both Ichigo and Hitsugaya where shown releasing spiritual power while not being Shinigami, then they both become Shinigami.
Lastly, I bring to the table Chapter -15, specifically this page:
Hitsugaya saw and 'heard' (partly at least) Hyrinmaru before he become a Shinigami.
And Matsumoto says here that once a person can properly hear that voice and control it, they become a Shinigami. This is pretty much what happened to Ichigo. Zangetsu was calling out to Ichigo, for at least three days at that point, possibly more, without being heard properly. Once Ichigo found Zangetsu, again or for the first time, he returned to being a Shinigami.
That chapter (-15) shows that a person with high level of spiritual power can have a Zanpakutou spirit inside of them, waiting to be called out. Also consider that both Ichigo and Hitsugaya where shown releasing spiritual power while not being Shinigami, then they both become Shinigami.
I would make the bet that had Ichigo lived and died normally he would have gotten the dreams of Zangetsu while he was a in Rukongai.
While Ichigo's power does not awaken until the moment he pulls the sword from the pit Zangetsu probably began trying to talk to Ichigo the moment he began training with Urahara as a spirit.
You also have to consider that no one is explain things to Ichigo, they are like do this, and then they put him in a situation where he has to do it to survive.
At least Hitsugaya had Matsumoto there to, at least, let him know what was going on.
Going by what Zangetsu says before Ichigo calls him out,
fear is what was ultimately preventing Ichigo from hearing Zangetsu. Maybe that same 'fear' is what cause Zangetsu to hid from Byakuya.
Don't claim facts without checking first. Rukia didn't transfer all of her Shinigami power to Ichigo. She transferred almost all of it. Big difference. Though at least I can understand why you say that. The official translation fucked it up. The fantrans were more accurate.
And before someone starts whining about it again, basic logic should tell you which is true, independent of what I claim. If Rukia had been robbed of "all" her Shinigami power, then she couldn't have used Kido. Which she did. Since Kido is an art that requires a degree of Shinigami power to perform, Rukia must therefore have still possessed some of her Shinigami power.
Except you've got nothing whatsoever to back that up. It's a totally random guess with no evidence to support it. At least Omega and Fenix have some evidence, even though I don't consider it good evidence (and they seem to hold vice-versa for me, which is the entire reason for this debate in the first place).
This, though, is just something totally random you pulled out your ass.
Yes, there can be, provided people who asspull stop muddying things up. We've finally got a thread where we can debate this out. Stop trying to cockblock the debate.
Boo-fucking-hoo. It was never meant to be fun. It was meant to be a place where we could argue about the point without jacking other threads. If you want a Fun Debate Thread, then go make it yourself.
Only if you ignore the concept of canon. Which you apparently have no problems doing.
Again, boo-fucking-hoo. This wasn't meant to be fun, and I don't appreciate you trying to hold everyone else in this thread, myself included, to a magical mystical standard of your personal expectations that only exists in your head, as opposed to being something the OP laid out. You're clearly in the wrong thread if you're whining about how it isn't "fun" anymore.
Again, the concept of canon clearly eludes you, doesn't it?
No, that's not what they sound like. And no, I don't. If I did, I would just beat you over the head with them over and over every time this came up, instead of telling you that it's not my job to remind you of shit you keep forgetting. If you can't remember like how you claim, then you shouldn't argue in the first place.
And before someone starts whining about it again, basic logic should tell you which is true, independent of what I claim. If Rukia had been robbed of "all" her Shinigami power, then she couldn't have used Kido. Which she did. Since Kido is an art that requires a degree of Shinigami power to perform, Rukia must therefore have still possessed some of her Shinigami power.
Except you've got nothing whatsoever to back that up. It's a totally random guess with no evidence to support it. At least Omega and Fenix have some evidence, even though I don't consider it good evidence (and they seem to hold vice-versa for me, which is the entire reason for this debate in the first place).
This, though, is just something totally random you pulled out your ass.
Yes, there can be, provided people who asspull stop muddying things up. We've finally got a thread where we can debate this out. Stop trying to cockblock the debate.
Boo-fucking-hoo. It was never meant to be fun. It was meant to be a place where we could argue about the point without jacking other threads. If you want a Fun Debate Thread, then go make it yourself.
Only if you ignore the concept of canon. Which you apparently have no problems doing.
Again, boo-fucking-hoo. This wasn't meant to be fun, and I don't appreciate you trying to hold everyone else in this thread, myself included, to a magical mystical standard of your personal expectations that only exists in your head, as opposed to being something the OP laid out. You're clearly in the wrong thread if you're whining about how it isn't "fun" anymore.
Again, the concept of canon clearly eludes you, doesn't it?
No, that's not what they sound like. And no, I don't. If I did, I would just beat you over the head with them over and over every time this came up, instead of telling you that it's not my job to remind you of shit you keep forgetting. If you can't remember like how you claim, then you shouldn't argue in the first place.
I do understand the concept of canon. I also understand that the conclusions we draw from what we see are not necessarily correct. The things you are arguing are not canon, but merely your interpretation of it.
That is the point I was trying to make with that post. As for claiming the official translators fucked up? You may or may not have a point. Doesn't change the fact that it's official. Bitch and moan all you want, it doesn't change the facts.
Hey, I bet you're one of those people that claim the author/creator/artists/whatever has "ruined" a character/series/whatever whenever they make a decision you don't agree with.
That is the point I was trying to make with that post. As for claiming the official translators fucked up? You may or may not have a point. Doesn't change the fact that it's official. Bitch and moan all you want, it doesn't change the facts.
Hey, I bet you're one of those people that claim the author/creator/artists/whatever has "ruined" a character/series/whatever whenever they make a decision you don't agree with.
You've got no right to talk about facts, seeing how you still don't seem to understand the idea of canon. You've already stated you don't like the way the thread is going. Fine. Then leave. For someone who just wants to have 'fun,' you sure are sticking around and arguing a lot.
The mangaka outranks the official English translators. If they fucked up, it's their fuckup, and thus not canon. The only thing that's official is the original source material (the manga, in this case), plus whatever canon supplements the mangaka decides to throw out there (like SOULS).
If that doesn't suit your wishy-washy interpretational concept of canon, then deal. Canon is determined by proximity to the original source, plus what the original source says. Since Tite didn't translate the manga into English, any fuckups or mistranslations don't count.
It's not that hard a concept to grasp.
The mangaka outranks the official English translators. If they fucked up, it's their fuckup, and thus not canon. The only thing that's official is the original source material (the manga, in this case), plus whatever canon supplements the mangaka decides to throw out there (like SOULS).
If that doesn't suit your wishy-washy interpretational concept of canon, then deal. Canon is determined by proximity to the original source, plus what the original source says. Since Tite didn't translate the manga into English, any fuckups or mistranslations don't count.
It's not that hard a concept to grasp.
For one thing, I'm not a saint. For another you piss me off.
As for what I meant with the crack about failing the unit on the scientific process?
Hypothesis a proposition, or set of propositions, set forth as an explanation for the occurrence of some specified group of phenomena, either asserted merely as a provisional conjecture to guide investigation (working hypothesis) or accepted as highly probable in the light of established facts.
In the context of this thread we are looking at canon (established facts) and setting forth a proposal to explain what those facts mean. In my initial post I did not directly attack anybody's hypothesis, merely their attitudes in regards to the hypotheses presented by others, especially when those hypotheses contradicted his or her own hypothesis.
In response to my original post you attacked me and my reasoning. I responded immaturely I admit, but when someone makes a personal attack on you, you get angry. Sometimes you lash out. Sometimes you don't. I lashed out.
So, if you please, stop acting as if your hypothesis is the lone, absolute truth. We cannot proceed to an experimental stage and we lack the ability to speak to the author directly so we must accept that there are others who may see the same facts we do and and have a different, if equally valid, explanation for those facts.
That is where you fail.
As for what I meant with the crack about failing the unit on the scientific process?
Hypothesis a proposition, or set of propositions, set forth as an explanation for the occurrence of some specified group of phenomena, either asserted merely as a provisional conjecture to guide investigation (working hypothesis) or accepted as highly probable in the light of established facts.
In the context of this thread we are looking at canon (established facts) and setting forth a proposal to explain what those facts mean. In my initial post I did not directly attack anybody's hypothesis, merely their attitudes in regards to the hypotheses presented by others, especially when those hypotheses contradicted his or her own hypothesis.
In response to my original post you attacked me and my reasoning. I responded immaturely I admit, but when someone makes a personal attack on you, you get angry. Sometimes you lash out. Sometimes you don't. I lashed out.
So, if you please, stop acting as if your hypothesis is the lone, absolute truth. We cannot proceed to an experimental stage and we lack the ability to speak to the author directly so we must accept that there are others who may see the same facts we do and and have a different, if equally valid, explanation for those facts.
That is where you fail.
Debates aren't suppose to be fun? Since when.
Debates, arguments whatever you want to refer to them are ways we process and divulge information and slowly reform ideas until the most plausible and likely correct idea comes out. It's the way we figure out all information, even if it is only an internal debate with ourselves.
It's only when you refuse to debate/argue properly that you end up aggrivating yourself and others.
A lot of people here right now have a problem with this. Raine you especially have it because you refuse to ADJUST your opinion on anything, and instead try to adjust facts themselves as much as possible so they fit your opinion. That's why you always believe yourself to be right, even when that isn't the case.
I'm not saying you shouldn't keep your opinion and hold to it firmly. But it needs to be flexible enough that you can adjust it to better fit the facts present. Not the other way around. In example of this I could say I started with the opinion that the blade was Zangetsu to begin with. It is a viable opinion and one I stuck with. But there are certain facts that contest with it, and seeing that there is not a very plausible way it could be Zangetsu like I believe so, I adjusted my opinion to a more plausible one. That it is Zangetsu, but through a filter of Sode in a way.
That's how debate works. Going in with the full set mind of I'M ABSOLUTELY RIGHT is wrong. Being strong in your opinion is good as it means you'll make a full argument instead of a half-assed one. But when it ends up hitting a wall you can't move around is when these two differ. Going I'm Absolutely Right means you will try to drill a hole through the wall at all costs, essentially altering facts themselves.
Whereas being strong in you opinion will mean you will only deter enough to bypass the wall. That is what makes a good debater.
And your idea of the Mangaka being the end all of everything fact is wrong. While the creator is a very good source of information and tends to lead you on proper paths, they are not the absolute authority. This is because of perception. When a person writes, draws, creates something. They are trying to cause their own perception to come into being. But that is an impossibility because no two people think alike. Not even identical twins or clones. This means that the second something is created, it is a seperate being in and of itself. They have a good idea what it is and they know how to influence it and most of the ins and outs. But they will not have a perfect understanding of it because of the perception of others.
But that doesn't mean you shouldn't give the Mangaka credit. They do know more about this subject than anyone else. Just that you can't place what they say as absolute evidence.
Besides, I fail to see how the Mangaka makes what you say correct? Or are you saying he is whispering into your head right now?
Debates, arguments whatever you want to refer to them are ways we process and divulge information and slowly reform ideas until the most plausible and likely correct idea comes out. It's the way we figure out all information, even if it is only an internal debate with ourselves.
It's only when you refuse to debate/argue properly that you end up aggrivating yourself and others.
A lot of people here right now have a problem with this. Raine you especially have it because you refuse to ADJUST your opinion on anything, and instead try to adjust facts themselves as much as possible so they fit your opinion. That's why you always believe yourself to be right, even when that isn't the case.
I'm not saying you shouldn't keep your opinion and hold to it firmly. But it needs to be flexible enough that you can adjust it to better fit the facts present. Not the other way around. In example of this I could say I started with the opinion that the blade was Zangetsu to begin with. It is a viable opinion and one I stuck with. But there are certain facts that contest with it, and seeing that there is not a very plausible way it could be Zangetsu like I believe so, I adjusted my opinion to a more plausible one. That it is Zangetsu, but through a filter of Sode in a way.
That's how debate works. Going in with the full set mind of I'M ABSOLUTELY RIGHT is wrong. Being strong in your opinion is good as it means you'll make a full argument instead of a half-assed one. But when it ends up hitting a wall you can't move around is when these two differ. Going I'm Absolutely Right means you will try to drill a hole through the wall at all costs, essentially altering facts themselves.
Whereas being strong in you opinion will mean you will only deter enough to bypass the wall. That is what makes a good debater.
And your idea of the Mangaka being the end all of everything fact is wrong. While the creator is a very good source of information and tends to lead you on proper paths, they are not the absolute authority. This is because of perception. When a person writes, draws, creates something. They are trying to cause their own perception to come into being. But that is an impossibility because no two people think alike. Not even identical twins or clones. This means that the second something is created, it is a seperate being in and of itself. They have a good idea what it is and they know how to influence it and most of the ins and outs. But they will not have a perfect understanding of it because of the perception of others.
But that doesn't mean you shouldn't give the Mangaka credit. They do know more about this subject than anyone else. Just that you can't place what they say as absolute evidence.
Besides, I fail to see how the Mangaka makes what you say correct? Or are you saying he is whispering into your head right now?