Bleach Zangetsu or No Zangetsu
- Thread starter Vexarian
- Start date
No, it wasn't, because Byakuya destroyed all the active Shinigami powers in Ichigo. If Zangetsu had been in any way active, it would have been destroyed as well.
Poor choice of words on my part (though really, more on the translators, but I won't ride them for that). Zangetsu started out as being totally latent. Then Zangetsu became a potential power, but still wasn't active yet.
Depending on your interpretation, Zangetsu only became active:
~ When Ichigo pulled him out of the box.
~ When Ichigo learned his name.
However, unfortunately for you, neither of those interpretations lines up with what your argument has been (which is that it's been Zangetsu since the beginning).
Zangetsu is literally defined as being Ichigo's Shinigami powers. So as long as Ichigo is using Rukia's, he isn't using Zangetsu. The very earliest you could argue that Zangetsu became active was immediately after Byakuya destroyed Rukia's Shinigami powers. And even that won't work, because Ichigo became powerless as a Shinigami after Byakuya did that. So the very earliest it can be done is the emergence from the pit, because if it had been pre-Byakuya, Zangetsu wouldn't exist anymore, and if it had been pre-pit, then the pit itself would have been completely pointless, as Urahara said it was an exercise "designed to force Ichigo to awaken his own Shinigami powers."
Urahara screws you over, if nothing else, because if Zangetsu was already active, then the pit training literally served no point whatsoever, because it's sole purpose was to force Ichigo to use his own Shinigami powers. As in "he hasn't been using them up until now."
Poor choice of words on my part (though really, more on the translators, but I won't ride them for that). Zangetsu started out as being totally latent. Then Zangetsu became a potential power, but still wasn't active yet.
Depending on your interpretation, Zangetsu only became active:
~ When Ichigo pulled him out of the box.
~ When Ichigo learned his name.
However, unfortunately for you, neither of those interpretations lines up with what your argument has been (which is that it's been Zangetsu since the beginning).
Zangetsu is literally defined as being Ichigo's Shinigami powers. So as long as Ichigo is using Rukia's, he isn't using Zangetsu. The very earliest you could argue that Zangetsu became active was immediately after Byakuya destroyed Rukia's Shinigami powers. And even that won't work, because Ichigo became powerless as a Shinigami after Byakuya did that. So the very earliest it can be done is the emergence from the pit, because if it had been pre-Byakuya, Zangetsu wouldn't exist anymore, and if it had been pre-pit, then the pit itself would have been completely pointless, as Urahara said it was an exercise "designed to force Ichigo to awaken his own Shinigami powers."
Urahara screws you over, if nothing else, because if Zangetsu was already active, then the pit training literally served no point whatsoever, because it's sole purpose was to force Ichigo to use his own Shinigami powers. As in "he hasn't been using them up until now."
Now that you remind me, I just looked at the page in question (Ch.49, p.19) and the slash extends beyond the Menos' body, which suggested to me that we were dealing with a low-powered Getsuga, rather than the building-cutting slash we saw Kenpachi pull off later on. <s>Which was a delayed-reaction sword-pressure shot, no?</s>
Like, Doryusen rather than Tobi Izuna, y'know?
Not that I consider it particularly compelling evidence for either side of the argument - maybe Kubo was foreshadowing Getsuga Tensho's eventual reveal, maybe it was just a Kenpachi-level slash, or perhaps it was both, or neither.
Given what happened the last couple of times people got onto this tangent, I don't want to get into it again - but at the very least, that's my take on what we see with Mister Menos.
Like, Doryusen rather than Tobi Izuna, y'know?
Not that I consider it particularly compelling evidence for either side of the argument - maybe Kubo was foreshadowing Getsuga Tensho's eventual reveal, maybe it was just a Kenpachi-level slash, or perhaps it was both, or neither.
Given what happened the last couple of times people got onto this tangent, I don't want to get into it again - but at the very least, that's my take on what we see with Mister Menos.
Dude, I REREAD that entire section not too long ago. Urahara never said such a line as far as I recall, and Zangetsu's own statement, the one which I'd take OVER Urahara's anyway given he should know Ichigo's inner workings far better than Urahara counters it. :mellow:
Okay, this is cause for me to turn that same complaint on you. This is NOT what Byakuya did. Every time you have tried to claim this, I have brought up the same page that has countered it. Byakuya ONLY aimed for Rukia's powers:
Okay, this is cause for me to turn that same complaint on you. This is NOT what Byakuya did. Every time you have tried to claim this, I have brought up the same page that has countered it. Byakuya ONLY aimed for Rukia's powers:
Only if you don't take into account the fact that the blow had enough force behind it that it tore instead of cut, which explains the material coming out the other end.
Also, Kenpachi's trick had the same effect. Spurts of energy that extended out from where the extended cut terminated.
Sorry, but no dice. Unless you can provide significant evidence that it's a Getsuga (and you can't), then it can't be called as being a Getsuga. Especially seeing how other people have done the exact same thing.
Only because you're looking for him specifically saying it, and don't seem to understand what imply means. Imply means "X said something that, when taken in context (possibly with the addition of the Y and W that we already know), means Z must be true."
Urahara implied that Ichigo had not activated or used his own Shinigami powers (which happen to be named 'Zangetsu), because THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE PIT WAS TO WAKE UP ICHIGO'S SHINIGAMI POWERS VIA TRIAL-BY-FIRE. IF THEY WERE ALREADY AWAKE, URAHARA WOULDN'T HAVE PUT HIM IN THE PIT TO BEGIN WITH.
That's what I mean when I say "Urahara implied." The fact that he put Ichigo in the pit specifically to make him use his own Shinigami powers silently states that he has not used them up until now.
And from what we know of what Rukia did, he hadn't used them up until then, either.
And every time you have, I've ignored it, because I already countered it the first time you did it, and you ignored me completely.
That's a shitty, awkward translation. So much so that it actually compelled me to get off my ass and translate it for myself. Which I told you, along with what it said. Which you ignored.
Your counter is twice-removed incorrect, because you're misreading what is itself a shoddy mistranslation. I honestly have no idea why they haven't fixed it yet, but they really need to.
Also, Kenpachi's trick had the same effect. Spurts of energy that extended out from where the extended cut terminated.
Sorry, but no dice. Unless you can provide significant evidence that it's a Getsuga (and you can't), then it can't be called as being a Getsuga. Especially seeing how other people have done the exact same thing.
Only because you're looking for him specifically saying it, and don't seem to understand what imply means. Imply means "X said something that, when taken in context (possibly with the addition of the Y and W that we already know), means Z must be true."
Urahara implied that Ichigo had not activated or used his own Shinigami powers (which happen to be named 'Zangetsu), because THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE PIT WAS TO WAKE UP ICHIGO'S SHINIGAMI POWERS VIA TRIAL-BY-FIRE. IF THEY WERE ALREADY AWAKE, URAHARA WOULDN'T HAVE PUT HIM IN THE PIT TO BEGIN WITH.
That's what I mean when I say "Urahara implied." The fact that he put Ichigo in the pit specifically to make him use his own Shinigami powers silently states that he has not used them up until now.
And from what we know of what Rukia did, he hadn't used them up until then, either.
And every time you have, I've ignored it, because I already countered it the first time you did it, and you ignored me completely.
That's a shitty, awkward translation. So much so that it actually compelled me to get off my ass and translate it for myself. Which I told you, along with what it said. Which you ignored.
Your counter is twice-removed incorrect, because you're misreading what is itself a shoddy mistranslation. I honestly have no idea why they haven't fixed it yet, but they really need to.
Uh what? I have a secondary translation of the thing, by the guy who is actually quite trusted for accuracy on mangahelpers, which basically says the same thing, which you also ignored when brought up:
http://mangahelpers.com/t/molokidan/releases/8790
Anime even goes out of it's way to say the same. I HIGHLY doubt both managed to screw the same scene up. :mellow:
Edit: Not sure there is a RETCON involved. Kubo obviously changed his intial plans by a lot though, given the sudden shift this arc as well as him not intially planning the captains. Whether or not this creates an outright contradiction, which granted Byakuya lacking his cloak certainly looks like, is up for grabs.
http://mangahelpers.com/t/molokidan/releases/8790
Anime even goes out of it's way to say the same. I HIGHLY doubt both managed to screw the same scene up. :mellow:
Edit: Not sure there is a RETCON involved. Kubo obviously changed his intial plans by a lot though, given the sudden shift this arc as well as him not intially planning the captains. Whether or not this creates an outright contradiction, which granted Byakuya lacking his cloak certainly looks like, is up for grabs.
I don't care how well-trusted he is. I can read Japanese myself, and it's a poor translation of what was already awkwardly worded to begin with in it's original form.
The context implies 'rising,' which is lost in the translation. It should have been reworded to take this into account, but instead they went with a direct translation.
Byakuya DID only aim at the Shinigami powers that were active in Ichigo, because he thought those were the only ones present. What Zangetsu is saying is, in effect, that it was his foolish mistake, because in aiming for the powers that were 'surface,' he missed the 'buried' powers.
Zangetsu is calling Byakuya 'sloppy' and 'foolish' for assuming that there wasn't something else buried underneath the Shinigami power Rukia gave Ichigo.
He is saying, in essence, that Zangetsu/Ichigo's Shinigami powers were originally buried deep, but when Rukia transferred her own powers to Ichigo, she 'uncovered' them. However, the presence of Rukia's powers also pushed Ichigo's Shinigami powers 'down.'
Zangetsu the goes on to say that it was naive/childish of Byakuya to not realize that, in destroying only Rukia's Shinigami powers (the powers on the surface), he would clear the way for Ichigo's own powers to 'rise.'
Or, tl;dr: "Byakuya was stupid to not double-check, and assume that you had nothing else in you besides Rukia's powers. His plan was to destroy Rukia's active powers within you, and he thought that would be the end. What a childish/naive idea. . . "
Yes, there is. At least one. That, or shitty translations, take your pick.
The context implies 'rising,' which is lost in the translation. It should have been reworded to take this into account, but instead they went with a direct translation.
Byakuya DID only aim at the Shinigami powers that were active in Ichigo, because he thought those were the only ones present. What Zangetsu is saying is, in effect, that it was his foolish mistake, because in aiming for the powers that were 'surface,' he missed the 'buried' powers.
Zangetsu is calling Byakuya 'sloppy' and 'foolish' for assuming that there wasn't something else buried underneath the Shinigami power Rukia gave Ichigo.
He is saying, in essence, that Zangetsu/Ichigo's Shinigami powers were originally buried deep, but when Rukia transferred her own powers to Ichigo, she 'uncovered' them. However, the presence of Rukia's powers also pushed Ichigo's Shinigami powers 'down.'
Zangetsu the goes on to say that it was naive/childish of Byakuya to not realize that, in destroying only Rukia's Shinigami powers (the powers on the surface), he would clear the way for Ichigo's own powers to 'rise.'
Or, tl;dr: "Byakuya was stupid to not double-check, and assume that you had nothing else in you besides Rukia's powers. His plan was to destroy Rukia's active powers within you, and he thought that would be the end. What a childish/naive idea. . . "
Yes, there is. At least one. That, or shitty translations, take your pick.
Will you except the official English translations take on these pages?
Because I know that the anime-subbers subbed it the same way.
Episode 19 English revelant content starts at 13:00. Says what the scan says.
EDIT: BTW there is precedent for Ichigo case, in this chapter, Hitsugaya saw his Zanpakutous Avatar before he became a Shinigami. That's similar to what happened to Ichigo in the Shattered Shaft.
Because I know that the anime-subbers subbed it the same way.
Episode 19 English revelant content starts at 13:00. Says what the scan says.
EDIT: BTW there is precedent for Ichigo case, in this chapter, Hitsugaya saw his Zanpakutous Avatar before he became a Shinigami. That's similar to what happened to Ichigo in the Shattered Shaft.
Well, then you have a real problem there without a secondary evidence to back you up. As of now it's three translations saying the same thing, two of which are, at the very least, semi reliable, well four if you also count the dub, but that's already on shaky grounds given some of the embellishments they went with, to your one.
Edit: Wait, that's where that "It hid itself inside your soul an instant before Byakuya's attack" line came from. I saw it a while ago and was sure that was the actual translation, but could never find it save the anime subs, which I was sure I hadn't viewed up to that point. Figures it would be the official english manga translation, the first one I read... >>
Edit: Wait, that's where that "It hid itself inside your soul an instant before Byakuya's attack" line came from. I saw it a while ago and was sure that was the actual translation, but could never find it save the anime subs, which I was sure I hadn't viewed up to that point. Figures it would be the official english manga translation, the first one I read... >>
You have balls of iron to tell me that my point needs "backing up."
I've thrown down enough evidence to choke a goddamn donkey. You're the one who needs a more cohesive argument. You've got the dialogue of one person, which can be interpreted two different ways depending on how it's read. I've got the dialogue of about five people across the manga, over a dozen scans, two thought experiments, and three massive holes in your stance you've ever actually countered. And I fucking know you haven't, because I actually paid attention and read all your posts, as painful as it was.
Now, you might ask me to provide that evidence (AGAIN). But do not. Fucking. Tell me. I haven't provided. ENOUGH.
I've thrown down enough evidence to choke a goddamn donkey. You're the one who needs a more cohesive argument. You've got the dialogue of one person, which can be interpreted two different ways depending on how it's read. I've got the dialogue of about five people across the manga, over a dozen scans, two thought experiments, and three massive holes in your stance you've ever actually countered. And I fucking know you haven't, because I actually paid attention and read all your posts, as painful as it was.
Now, you might ask me to provide that evidence (AGAIN). But do not. Fucking. Tell me. I haven't provided. ENOUGH.
The thing is Raine, you never gave an explaination as to why he still contained the broken hilt after those powers were destroyed.
If it was only due to Rukia's power, then the hilt should have disappeared with those powers as they were destroyed.
But he still contains the hilts, although it is broken. That means that it would have to be power BEYOND that was destroyed by Byakuya, in otherwords, power beyond the active Shinigami power that Rukia gave to Ichigo.
And the only other power Ichigo had to draw on is his own. Meaning if he did, he would be drawing on the power of Zangetsu as it is his power.
If it was only due to Rukia's power, then the hilt should have disappeared with those powers as they were destroyed.
But he still contains the hilts, although it is broken. That means that it would have to be power BEYOND that was destroyed by Byakuya, in otherwords, power beyond the active Shinigami power that Rukia gave to Ichigo.
And the only other power Ichigo had to draw on is his own. Meaning if he did, he would be drawing on the power of Zangetsu as it is his power.
I don't have to. Zanpakuto can endure after the source of the power is destroyed. Justice-Boy is proof of that.
If we hadn't seen him or heard of his background, you'd be right. It'd be a pretty big hole. But thanks to him, we know that a Zanpakuto can physically linger on even after the person who created it has died, taking the Shinigami power that created the Zanpakuto with them. Just because we don't know the exact process or mechanics involved doesn't invalidate the idea, because he's proof-of-concept for it.
If we hadn't seen him or heard of his background, you'd be right. It'd be a pretty big hole. But thanks to him, we know that a Zanpakuto can physically linger on even after the person who created it has died, taking the Shinigami power that created the Zanpakuto with them. Just because we don't know the exact process or mechanics involved doesn't invalidate the idea, because he's proof-of-concept for it.
You haven't, due to the simple fact that you're hand waving the holes in your argument and the other possible interpretations of the same information with claims of dialogue that either don't exist or can be interpreted in another way that doesn't coincide with that argument and instead the other, facts that don't exist, granted in cases prior to this though that haven't popped up again, or, in this case, a self made translation that claims that all the other translations which translated the same scene and got pretty much the exact same thing were wrong, when yours is not.
Now don't get me wrong, it could indeed be the correct interpretation of the evidence that you actually did bring up... But that doesn't mean that it's the ONLY possible interpretation of the same scenes.
Now don't get me wrong, it could indeed be the correct interpretation of the evidence that you actually did bring up... But that doesn't mean that it's the ONLY possible interpretation of the same scenes.
But Tousen is still fueling the Zanpakuto with his own power. It's not he was given powers and he used the Zanpakuto. It's he took her Zanpakuto and made it work with his own power, making it his own. The main point is that he was never given her powers. This is important as it means he is relying ONLY on his power.
That is a different scenario than Ichigo. Especially from what you were suggesting. As for it to be ONLY Rukia's Zanpakuto, it would require Ichigo to rely completely on the power she gave him. If that was the case, then the Zanpakuto would need to be completely gone when her powers were destroyed. They weren't.
That is a different scenario than Ichigo. Especially from what you were suggesting. As for it to be ONLY Rukia's Zanpakuto, it would require Ichigo to rely completely on the power she gave him. If that was the case, then the Zanpakuto would need to be completely gone when her powers were destroyed. They weren't.
Because I've already sourced all of it before, and you forgot about it. Multiple times in a row. And I'm pissed at you because of it.
It's not ambiguous because I don't have the source. I can go and get it, and have done in the past. It's ambiguous because I'm tired of giving you the source to absolutely no effect whatsoever.
Don't throw stones in a glass house. If my flaw is not being able to admit mistakes, then the flaw half of you share is the inability to remember anything that you don't agree with.
Right. And Byakuya didn't destroy Ichigo's spirit energy. He destroyed Rukia's Shinigami power.
It's not ambiguous because I don't have the source. I can go and get it, and have done in the past. It's ambiguous because I'm tired of giving you the source to absolutely no effect whatsoever.
Don't throw stones in a glass house. If my flaw is not being able to admit mistakes, then the flaw half of you share is the inability to remember anything that you don't agree with.
Right. And Byakuya didn't destroy Ichigo's spirit energy. He destroyed Rukia's Shinigami power.
But thats not what it sounds like; it sounds like you don't want to admit that multiple sources, even Official? ones, could invalidate/not-support your points; so they have to be wrong/copied from bad translations/interpreted differently then you did from an ambiguous source.
That doesn't look good. You have done this before as well, and it wasn't in good taste then either.
As far as I have read no one here disagrees with that.
That doesn't look good. You have done this before as well, and it wasn't in good taste then either.
As far as I have read no one here disagrees with that.
I remember what I don't agree with. I'm saying you're arguing the wrong part.
WE AGREE that Byakuya destroyed Rukia's Spirit Power, or rather removed it from Ichigo.
In fact that is what I'm arguing. If he removed it from Ichigo, then why is he still able to use even a portion of Rukia's Zanpakuto? Are you suggesting it is remaining with Ichigo instead of returning to Rukia, WHO IT ACTUALLY IS.
You have yet to explain to me how this occurs under your theory that it is only Rukia's Zanpakuto and nothing with Ichigo's.
WE AGREE that Byakuya destroyed Rukia's Spirit Power, or rather removed it from Ichigo.
In fact that is what I'm arguing. If he removed it from Ichigo, then why is he still able to use even a portion of Rukia's Zanpakuto? Are you suggesting it is remaining with Ichigo instead of returning to Rukia, WHO IT ACTUALLY IS.
You have yet to explain to me how this occurs under your theory that it is only Rukia's Zanpakuto and nothing with Ichigo's.
I don't give a damn what it sounds like. I already explained myself, and if you don't like it, then you should have paid attention the first time. After all the shit you've put me through, I think I've earned the right to chew you out a bit over the whole ordeal.
Yes. It was your fault then as well. I provided the sauce, you ignored it and/or weren't convinced regardless, argument fades, argument starts up later, I make the same claims, you demand the exact same sauce again, and when I tell you I already gave it to you, you tell me you've forgotten. I then refuse to re-sauce out of principle, because you damn well should have paid attention the firs time, at which get called names, insulted, and accused of lying. Waste, rinse, and repete as-necessary.
At this point, I don't really give a damn if you're lying or if you really are that forgetful. If you've forgotten everything from last time, don't start it up for another fucking go. The only reason I'm not ignoring you this time like I ought to have done the last two times this happened is because, being it's own seperate thread, this is a chance to finally end it, as it lets me shut <s>you</s> people up with a simple link should this all come up again (and I fucking know it will, as you haven't dropped it yet).
Yes. Again, look at Tousen. The owner of that Zanpakuto no longer exists, and yet it's still around.
Zanpakuto are actual objects, not 'just' manifestations of power. It's made very clear that Zanpakuto can linger on (apparently indefinately) after the Shinigami power that created them is destroyed.
I won't pretend to understand the process, as Tite has never bothered to explain it, either himself or through other characters. But yes, that is exactly what I'm saying, and Tousen is my evidence that it's possible.
Though in all fairness, Sode was eventually replaced. The issue is just whether it was the moment Ichigo came out of the hole, or when Zangetsu told Ichigo his name.
Yes. It was your fault then as well. I provided the sauce, you ignored it and/or weren't convinced regardless, argument fades, argument starts up later, I make the same claims, you demand the exact same sauce again, and when I tell you I already gave it to you, you tell me you've forgotten. I then refuse to re-sauce out of principle, because you damn well should have paid attention the firs time, at which get called names, insulted, and accused of lying. Waste, rinse, and repete as-necessary.
At this point, I don't really give a damn if you're lying or if you really are that forgetful. If you've forgotten everything from last time, don't start it up for another fucking go. The only reason I'm not ignoring you this time like I ought to have done the last two times this happened is because, being it's own seperate thread, this is a chance to finally end it, as it lets me shut <s>you</s> people up with a simple link should this all come up again (and I fucking know it will, as you haven't dropped it yet).
Yes. Again, look at Tousen. The owner of that Zanpakuto no longer exists, and yet it's still around.
Zanpakuto are actual objects, not 'just' manifestations of power. It's made very clear that Zanpakuto can linger on (apparently indefinately) after the Shinigami power that created them is destroyed.
I won't pretend to understand the process, as Tite has never bothered to explain it, either himself or through other characters. But yes, that is exactly what I'm saying, and Tousen is my evidence that it's possible.
Though in all fairness, Sode was eventually replaced. The issue is just whether it was the moment Ichigo came out of the hole, or when Zangetsu told Ichigo his name.